Hobbits to Isengard - Q/A with Sapience notes on what was said

I'd say that's a pretty accurate summary. Though I would say the housing question should have been Soon™. (meaning a ways off, yet)

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Originally Posted by Sapience

I'd say that's a pretty accurate summary. Though I would say the housing question should have been Soon™. (meaning a ways off, yet)

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Yeah, I meant to add the TM but forgot. :)

Hopefully you'll see this Sapience, but when I asked the question about the salves/draughts, I typed the wrong thing - both are available at the skirmish camp, but only salves, not draughts are available at healer NPCs. And I was wondering why. It'd be great if that was the query you passed along to those in the know :)

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Originally Posted by Tirian-Hammerfist

Hopefully you'll see this Sapience, but when I asked the question about the salves/draughts, I typed the wrong thing - both are available at the skirmish camp, but only salves, not draughts are available at healer NPCs. And I was wondering why. It'd be great if that was the query you passed along to those in the know :)

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Thanks for clarifying. I went and looked after the stream and was a little confused.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

Thanks for clarifying. I went and looked after the stream and was a little confused.

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Many thanks :)

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Originally Posted by Tirian-Hammerfist

Many thanks :)

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I always prefer salves over draughts, since the salves are more useful than the draughts. I can use a salve on myself or an ally, I can only use a draught on myself.

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Originally Posted by frickinmuck

I always prefer salves over draughts, since the salves are more useful than the draughts. I can use a salve on myself or an ally, I can only use a draught on myself.

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Its true that its more useful in that respect, however salves are less efficient for potting your own debuffs, and you need to be directly targeting yourself to use the salve (rather than targeting a monster targeting you). On my healing characters, I like to have salves, however for others, I prefer to have draughts, and I was wondering why both weren't provided at the healer anymore.

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Originally Posted by Tirian-Hammerfist

Its true that its more useful in that respect, however salves are less efficient for potting your own debuffs, and you need to be directly targeting yourself to use the salve (rather than targeting a monster targeting you).

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I haven't found that to be true. I can be targeting a monster and still use salves. I do so all the time.

In any case, the disappearance of draughts from healer NPCs warrants investigation.

[QUOTE=frickinmuck;7083815]I haven't found that to be true. QUOTE]


I hadn't experienced this until HD, but it seemed to become all too apparent after that.

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Originally Posted by Tirian-Hammerfist

I hadn't experienced this until HD, but it seemed to become all too apparent after that.

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If that's the case, then what they really need to do is unify them into one healing ointment that can heal oneself or an ally, and do away with pointless doubling up. Particularly given the plans to address inventory problems.

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Originally Posted by frickinmuck

If that's the case, then what they really need to do is unify them into one healing ointment that can heal oneself or an ally, and do away with pointless doubling up. Particularly given the plans to address inventory problems.

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Absolutely not. As Tirian Hammerfist tried to point out, but didn't quite get through, if you are using a salve you must be careful to target the person you want to affect (unless you are the ONLY person in the fight). if you are not targeting yourself (or targeting a monster that is targeting you back, should you have target forwarding turned on), you will accidentally use the salve on the other player you've targeted (or that your monster is targeting). In short, it is not nearly as quick and easy as one-click use of draughts when you need to heal yourself in group combat.

Bottom line is, we need both draughts and salves. This is a bigger deal for raid/fellowship fighting than it may seem, at least for some of us.

EDIT & p.s. For those who say, "but it's only 3 quick clicks, that's nothing" ... idk about you, but I could've been doing some serious damage in the couple of seconds it takes to make those 3 clicks. ;) It throws off rotations for several seconds afterward, as well.

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Originally Posted by Angadan

Absolutely not. As Tirian Hammerfist tried to point out, but didn't quite get through, if you are using a salve you must be careful to target the person you want to affect (unless you are the ONLY person in the fight). if you are not targeting yourself (or targeting a monster that is targeting you back, should you have target forwarding turned on), you will accidentally use the salve on the other player you've targeted (or that your monster is targeting). In short, it is not nearly as quick and easy as one-click use of draughts when you need to heal yourself in group combat.

Bottom line is, we need both draughts and salves. This is a bigger deal for raid/fellowship fighting than it may seem, at least for some of us.

EDIT & p.s. For those who say, "but it's only 3 quick clicks, that's nothing" ... idk about you, but I could've been doing some serious damage in the couple of seconds it takes to make those 3 clicks. ;) It throws off rotations for several seconds afterward, as well.

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Well, that's never been a real problem for me and I've carried salves exclusively for years. Perhaps the solution needs to be a bit more sophisticated than simply unifying the two - for example, a key combo for self or forwarded target, or something better I can't yet think of - but it's absurd to carry around 8 potions if you're the type who likes to help out fellow-players. Particularly when there is currently a desire to better manage inventory space.

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Originally Posted by frickinmuck

Well, that's never been a real problem for me and I've carried salves exclusively for years. Perhaps the solution needs to be a bit more sophisticated than simply unifying the two - for example, a key combo for self or forwarded target, or something better I can't yet think of - but it's absurd to carry around 8 potions if you're the type who likes to help out fellow-players. Particularly when there is currently a desire to better manage inventory space.

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I don't think anyone has to carry around 8 pot stacks. People who want to help others, like yourself, will carry just salves. Selfish SOBs like me, who only use them on ourselves, just carry around draughts. ;) j/k, but you see what I mean. It's all a choice.

My opinion: if it ain't broke, it don't need fixing. We've had these things for seven years; didn't suddenly become a problem worthy of some complicated solution. Just add the draughts to the healer vendors and call it a job well done.

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Originally Posted by Angadan

I don't think anyone has to carry around 8 pot stacks. People who want to help others, like yourself, will carry just salves. Selfish SOBs like me, who only use them on ourselves, just carry around draughts. ;) j/k, but you see what I mean. It's all a choice.

My opinion: if it ain't broke, it don't need fixing. We've had these things for seven years; didn't suddenly become a problem worthy of some complicated solution. Just add the draughts to the healer vendors and call it a job well done.

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I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

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Originally Posted by frickinmuck

Well, that's never been a real problem for me and I've carried salves exclusively for years. Perhaps the solution needs to be a bit more sophisticated than simply unifying the two - for example, a key combo for self or forwarded target, or something better I can't yet think of - but it's absurd to carry around 8 potions if you're the type who likes to help out fellow-players. Particularly when there is currently a desire to better manage inventory space.

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If you can take care of both yourself and your fellows with salves, it is nice and lucky of you.

However, in my opinion, unless you're a healer or main debuff remover in the party (like hunters pre-RoI), keeping yourself alive through debuff-removing is the highest priority.

I prefer cure myself and yell at other who forget to cure ones by themselves. I don't want to risk curing someone's debuff just then getting that debuff on myself with my potions in cooldown, and there is a very high probability that no one is the party carry salves to help me. Another case is a risk of curing wrong person when the debuff clock is ticking down (yeah, that's me). Of course if I have a cure skill and time to spare, I will still help a little because it does not affect my potion cooldown.

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Originally Posted by TKH

If you can take care of both yourself and your fellows with salves, it is nice and lucky of you.

However, in my opinion, unless you're a healer or main debuff remover in the party (like hunters pre-RoI), keeping yourself alive through debuff-removing is the highest priority.

I prefer cure myself and yell at other who forget to cure ones by themselves. I don't want to risk curing someone's debuff just then getting that debuff on myself with my potions in cooldown, and there is a very high probability that no one is the party carry salves to help me. Another case is a risk of curing wrong person when the debuff clock is ticking down (yeah, that's me). Of course if I have a cure skill and time to spare, I will still help a little because it does not affect my potion cooldown.

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It's true that a lot depends on the situation, one's role in the battle, how likely you are to be hit with the debuff vs other players and their importance to the success of the raid relative to your own, etc. etc. I can definitely say my having salves has saved a lot more raids than it's ever jeapordized. In any case, I'm not arguing that everyone should always be curing others, I am stating my personal preference and also my feeling that this could all be streamlined.

But this is all really peripheral to the purpose of this post so perhaps we should table it for another day.

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Originally Posted by frickinmuck

It's true that a lot depends on the situation, one's role in the battle, how likely you are to be hit with the debuff vs other players and their importance to the success of the raid relative to your own, etc. etc. I can definitely say my having salves has saved a lot more raids than it's ever jeapordized. In any case, I'm not arguing that everyone should always be curing others, I am stating my personal preference and also my feeling that this could all be streamlined.

But this is all really peripheral to the purpose of this post so perhaps we should table it for another day.

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I don't really WANT to call you out on this but you keep making posts about it. Salves are nearly useless for group content for reasons that two people have tried to explain. We have had pots for years and there is a perfectly good reason for that. There is no reason to reinvent the wheel, just provide pots at the relevant vendor as promised in the 12.1 patch notes.

- Healers now sell the Westemnet Draughts and Salves.


Edit: no mention in the 12.2 official notes from my quick skim through.

We need you to listen to and learn from others on this. (1) Bad idea, would not only NOT enhance but make more clunky the efforts to use pots by many players, (2) Would unnecessarily change a gameplay system that has existed largely without complaint for seven years, and (3) would take up the time of Turbine Team members that is preciously thin already.

I know you have a bee in your bonnet about this for some reason. Get it out. It is concerning that (IIRC) you are on the player council and might actually have someone at Turbine listen to you on the matter.

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Originally Posted by frickinmuck

Update 13 when will we hear more
Sooner than you probably think. He’s actually working on stuff right now. There are area revamps planned (yes, plural). Another 20 questions call for questions later this week.

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Great! more revamps of old zones while end-game is a huge black hole of nothingness. Whatever next? Maybe in update 13 we will get some equally pressing 'content' like a revamp of all the icons associated with each class' skills!

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Originally Posted by Bhoris_they_spider

Whatever next? Maybe in update 13 we will get some equally pressing 'content' like a revamp of all the icons associated with each class' skills!

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Sorry to disappoint you but I would very much like to see this. Many of the icons introduced with Helms Deep were badly done and looked too similar to other icons making it easy to confuse skills especially with auto-populating bars. Sic Em and the relevant pet attack which accompanies it are good examples. Whilst they might share some design similarities they should be instantly be able to be differentiated. There does not seem any overall design philosophy in color or icon use in this game with things being introduced piecemeal. Now they have time to look at existing systems this would be a good change to make, looking at every class icon and introducing some conformity.

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Originally Posted by Kaylorion

Sorry to disappoint you but I would very much like to see this. Many of the icons introduced with Helms Deep were badly done and looked too similar to other icons making it easy to confuse skills especially with auto-populating bars. Sic Em and the relevant pet attack which accompanies it are good examples. Whilst they might share some design similarities they should be instantly be able to be differentiated. There does not seem any overall design philosophy in color or icon use in this game with things being introduced piecemeal. Now they have time to look at existing systems this would be a good change to make, looking at every class icon and introducing some conformity.

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Everything comes at an opportunity cost, of course. Since we're talking primarily artwork involved in this instance, would you rather see a skill icon revamp, or an art pass to lower graphics demand --> improve performance, maybe reduce some lag? Would you rather have a skill icon revamp, or the artwork backlog caught up on crafting mats (think emeralds that look like garnets)? Would you rather have a skill icon revamp, or the artwork in place to support the eventual housing revamp?

Not saying the art team at Turbine can't do more than one of those things at a time, but the past several years have shown us, again and again, that the art team can't keep up on all of it. Case of pick your poison.

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Originally Posted by LunisequiouS

Also he mentioned there was already a spar arena of some sort added in HD, if I recall correctly.

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Players tend not to use sparring areas. They've adding sparring areas in the past that end up unused. I asked some sparring players in the market area of Galtrev why they weren't using the sparring area in Galtrev and was just laughed at. Sparring seems to be more about annoying other players, or being bored to death in the public gathering area, than in having an actual arena.

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Originally Posted by Lohi

Players tend not to use sparring areas. They've adding sparring areas in the past that end up unused. I asked some sparring players in the market area of Galtrev why they weren't using the sparring area in Galtrev and was just laughed at. Sparring seems to be more about annoying other players, or being bored to death in the public gathering area, than in having an actual arena.

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Just possibly, where people spar is as a result of where they would normally congregate - so back in SoA that would have been outside the West Gate of Bree (hunter port for pickups to go to the Rift), 21st Hall for Moria and SoM, Galtrev for Isengard, Galtrev and by the barterers in Snowborn for RoR etc. I doubt very much that when people spar their main intention is to annoy and grief others, rather it's to beat the other player to get bragging rights, have a bit of fun, pass the time and so forth.

That said if you can provide the evidence to back up your statement as to it's purpose being to annoy then I will be more than happy to reconsider my own view :)

Edit - but of course we can have that chat off line so to speak. Don't want to derail the thread any more :)

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Originally Posted by Angadan

I know you have a bee in your bonnet about this for some reason. Get it out. It is concerning that (IIRC) you are on the player council and might actually have someone at Turbine listen to you on the matter.

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Actually the idea of one item that can do two things is not bad. Ie, what if control-click would apply to a different person but a normal click were to yourself? Plus allow choosing what default you want. Then this also helps to reduce bag space.

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Originally Posted by Lohi

Actually the idea of one item that can do two things is not bad. Ie, what if control-click would apply to a different person but a normal click were to yourself? Plus allow choosing what default you want. Then this also helps to reduce bag space.

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Hmm, is the loss of dev effort in other areas worth this? Seems trivial to engineer, probably is anything but. Plus, the minute you make one click and the other one control-click, gonna be an argument over which is which (everyone will want simple click). Plus, putting in some new control panel option to make draughts simple-click versus salves simple-click seems like a lot of trouble for a non-problem. Plus, of the low % of people who carry all 8 (4+4), how many are looking for this change?

As I mentioned before, current system don't seem broke...if it ain't broke, let's don't fix it. Use that dev/engineer/art time on other things. Put the draughts in the healing stores and be done with it.