Filling the Gaps: following in the footsteps of the Wildwood and the Angle

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Originally Posted by Tirian-Hammerfist

This map change does feel like a very big tease for Rhudaur - although I'd still like to see it with the Ettenmoors properly integrated into the rest of the game world and make it less of a fish bowl (although I understand why the PvMP version needs to be like this).

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Here's my honest view: I think the current PvmP Moors needs to be its own, set-apart space like Lofts and Forges in Gundabad. It's true it might cause issues with "instance in an instance"; my thought there is, rather than an instance, to simply have it be like................... literally, put it out in some inaccessible part of Angmar beyond the Rift or something, and just "pretend" it's in it's normal location for PvmP. Just as before, you'd use a stable-master to ride off to the PvmP Moors, and it would all feel the same.

THEN: Make a PvE Moors in the current PvmP Moors' location; this version of the Moors could be set before the "PvmP" version in the time-line, maybe a "lead-up" to the battles, and it could be part of a wider Rhudaur region. It could connect to Misties, Trollshaws, bring the Lost Temple area into the game-world proper as with NCF and Stoneheight in the past, have an "exit" from the Etten-Caves near the lumber camp, and it would explore more of the history of Arador's End. It would also have mountain passes to connect near Helegrod. We could finally have the formal Great East Road cross the Misties in a place that's not "the hidden vale of Rivendell."

We could also actually retrace Gandalf's flight from four of the Nine - as he darted up to the Ettenmoors and came down to Rivendell from the North. We could also finally complete the northern spine of the Misties from the Moors to Angmar, especially the Maethad area, and potentially open the door to having a proper Iron Pass connector zone either on the "Rhovanion / Car Bronach" side or the "Angmar" side, since there's still a considerable geographical distance between Angmar and Gundabad.

Now, I know this suggestion would take forever and probably be development-foundations-of-stone . . . since it would involve basically rebuilding the whole Moors. That's probably why my suggestion will never happen . . . time, energy, just . . . an impossible dream.

Oh well. One can only dream . . . :)

Also: How about repurposing the old, abandoned PvMP Osgiliath AND transforming it into a PvE story about Boromir's and Faramir's stand against the Nine? Could use the Before the Shadow Boromir npc as the means of "telling the story" . . . It's a shame to waste the space and abandon it. It didn't work out for PvmP, ok! But it would sure work for lore-buffs who want to track the tale of how the Nine get from Minas Morgul to the Shire in a PvE setting. I miss the place.

Cheers! :D

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Originally Posted by Phantion

Here's my honest view: I think the current PvmP Moors needs to be its own, set-apart space like Lofts and Forges in Gundabad. It's true it might cause issues with "instance in an instance"; my thought there is, rather than an instance, to simply have it be like................... literally, put it out in some inaccessible part of Angmar beyond the Rift or something, and just "pretend" it's in it's normal location for PvmP. Just as before, you'd use a stable-master to ride off to the PvmP Moors, and it would all feel the same.

THEN: Make a PvE Moors in the current PvmP Moors' location; this version of the Moors could be set before the "PvmP" version in the time-line, maybe a "lead-up" to the battles, and it could be part of a wider Rhudaur region. It could connect to Misties, Trollshaws, bring the Lost Temple area into the game-world proper as with NCF and Stoneheight in the past, have an "exit" from the Etten-Caves near the lumber camp, and it would explore more of the history of Arador's End. It would also have mountain passes to connect near Helegrod. We could finally have the formal Great East Road cross the Misties in a place that's not "the hidden vale of Rivendell."

We could also actually retrace Gandalf's flight from four of the Nine - as he darted up to the Ettenmoors and came down to Rivendell from the North. We could also finally complete the northern spine of the Misties from the Moors to Angmar, especially the Maethad area, and potentially open the door to having a proper Iron Pass connector zone either on the "Rhovanion / Car Bronach" side or the "Angmar" side, since there's still a considerable geographical distance between Angmar and Gundabad.

Now, I know this suggestion would take forever and probably be development-foundations-of-stone . . . since it would involve basically rebuilding the whole Moors. That's probably why my suggestion will never happen . . . time, energy, just . . . an impossible dream.

Oh well. One can only dream . . . :)

Also: How about repurposing the old, abandoned PvMP Osgiliath AND transforming it into a PvE story about Boromir's and Faramir's stand against the Nine? Could use the Before the Shadow Boromir npc as the means of "telling the story" . . . It's a shame to waste the space and abandon it. It didn't work out for PvmP, ok! But it would sure work for lore-buffs who want to track the tale of how the Nine get from Minas Morgul to the Shire in a PvE setting. I miss the place.

Cheers! :D

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I definitely think there should be a PvE version of the Ettenmoors - as you say, there are plenty of stories to tell there.

I think a Rhudaur zone, including the Ettenmoors, the Weather Marches, Mount Gram and the area Varghedin’s map has labelled as ‘Ettendale’ (as well as potentially a link over to the Misty Mountains) could either be explored pre or post War of the Ring.

In terms of level logic, pre probably makes the most sense, as it could then be not too far out from the adjacent regions in terms of level.

However, post would provide end game content which there has been a recent dearth of.

I’d also like to start the petition now that we explore this area alongside someone who knows it well - and my suggestion is Radanir. Pre-War of the Ring, he is already based in the northern Trollshaws, and we don’t meet him before Level 65 in the caves of Laenan during Volume 3. With some adaptations to the text to that quest, we could already have a long backstory with Radanir from exploring Rhudaur.

Alternatively, our character and Radanir could be sent by Aragorn, after the War of the Ring, to secure this more troublesome of the Arnorian territories.

I think Radanir, already one of the best characters in the Grey Company, would be a great guide to Rhudaur - he could tell us the history of the zone, as well as fight alongside us to face new threats. It might also give him some more character development (a potential hidden descendant of the last Dunedain kings of Rhudaur, perhaps?)

If the epic doesn’t go there, I think these adventures with Radanir would create a really powerful central narrative that was pretty absent in Wildwood, sort of existed through Ravaedron in the Angle, and hopefully will be much stronger through the new strand of the epic in Cardolan and Swanfleet.

I know this is perhaps a little bit fan-fiction-y, but I didn’t feel I could miss the opportunity to make the pitch! :D



On a separate note, given the total missed opportunity that was PvMP Osgiliath (I’d hoped for some serious new mechanics which probably would have been a step too far, to really make it something worth playing), I’d be totally up for a PvE Tales of Yore version which charts the siege of Osgiliath as told by Boromir/Faramir.

I don't know about an exact 1:1 PvE copy of the Ettenmoors since the zone was designed from the ground up with only PvP in mind. But I do agree that there are stories to tell for that part of the world.

I think an argument could be made for relocating the current Ettenmoors a little to the northeast. Of course, I'm no dev so I know nothing about the technical challenges it would pose (I can only guess at the difficulty of changing the coordinates of every single thing and the complete mess it might create), but it would benefit the game world's connectiveness in several ways.

Take something like this (left is how things are in the game, right is my totally-not-feasible-idea :D):

https://i.gyazo.com/2f8647fffb762679...3da708f479.jpg -> https://i.imgur.com/QDRqByp.jpg

Moving the PvP zone to the northeast would allow for a wider space for "Rhudaur", instead of having to work with the relatively narrow gap that currently exists between the North Downs and the Ettenmoors. This zone, as previously debated around here, would be where the original capital of Rhudaur was located, and basically the homeland of the Hill-men that joined Angmar. There would also be more space to fit Mount Gram somewhere in the northern parts of the region.

And at the same time, we would now have a decently sized gap north of Trollshaws that could be its own zone, a part of "Rhudaur", or an expansion of the Misty Mountains region. I've named it Edge of the Wild on my image, for it's a term used by Tolkien several times during The Hobbit for an imaginary line that crosses this space (and where Karen Wynn Fonstad placed that name on her Eriador map), but they could name it something else, like Etten-something). This zone would act as if it were a PvE version of the Ettenmoors, expanding and fleshing out the lore about Rivendell's role as a bulwark against the north, and I think it might entice more players to try the actual PvP Ettenmoors after completing the zone.

Lore-wise, I think it makes some sense for the Ettenmoors to be a more remote and cold place than its current location in-game, even if it's not really an issue since the area isn't reachable on foot anyway. But I do feel that the region might be placed a little too close to Rivendell and the Trollshaws, while the Steps of Gram at the northwest still seem a little too far from Angmar.

Connection-wise, "Edge of the Wild/Ettendale/Ettenreach/Ettensomething" would offer an alternate way to reach the Misty Mountains' region, bypassing Rivendell. As has been said here before, Rivendell is supposed to be a hidden place that not that many people know about, but at the moment, in the game world, everyone just has to go through the place to reach the High Pass and cross the mountains. That issue would be fixed after this. This zone would also link with the Northern Trollshaws, the hypothetical "Rhudaur" region, and of course the PvP Ettenmoors (even if it's through a portal or stablemaster). I added a connection with Rivendell too, since that would be the path taken by the Elven armies to reach the moors.

https://i.imgur.com/qRzaYGh.jpg

/end-of-fanfiction ;)

I know it's a minor issue but I don't like the name Rhuduar for a location range north of Lone lands.

In most if not all the maps of middle earth in google search you will notice that Rhuduar is located in Trollsaws.

I understand that Arnor's sub-kingdom took Rhuduar name and expanded it all the way to weather top but that is not the case after the fall of Arnor as Rhuduar became Trollsaws.

Now I don't want to go against the books and the lore and of course I want to see what is north of Lone lands one day BUT the name in my opinion fits well in the region is Weather Hills.

Weather hills feels more catchy and fits more for the region close to weather top.

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Originally Posted by Valather89

https://i.gyazo.com/2f8647fffb762679...3da708f479.jpg -> https://i.imgur.com/QDRqByp.jpg

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I also have no clue if it's feasible, but I like this suggestion of moving the moors up a little and connecting through two new zones. I'd love to see another connection into the Misty Mountains without having to go through Rivendell, and the way you laid it out in the second screenshot makes the world feel much more real and connected.

I don't care if the moors is a 1:1 copy of the PvP zone, in fact I kind of prefer it. The PvP version could be like an instanced version of the zone that you enter after riding a stable master mount or talking to an NPC, but it would still make the moors feel more a part of the actual game world since you could make your way there on foot or horse from various locations in Middle Earth.

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Originally Posted by Valather89

I don't know about an exact 1:1 PvE copy of the Ettenmoors since the zone was designed from the ground up with only PvP in mind. But I do agree that there are stories to tell for that part of the world.

I think an argument could be made for relocating the current Ettenmoors a little to the northeast. Of course, I'm no dev so I know nothing about the technical challenges it would pose (I can only guess at the difficulty of changing the coordinates of every single thing and the complete mess it might create), but it would benefit the game world's connectiveness in several ways.

Take something like this (left is how things are in the game, right is my totally-not-feasible-idea :D):

https://i.gyazo.com/2f8647fffb762679...3da708f479.jpg -> https://i.imgur.com/QDRqByp.jpg

Moving the PvP zone to the northeast would allow for a wider space for "Rhudaur", instead of having to work with the relatively narrow gap that currently exists between the North Downs and the Ettenmoors. This zone, as previously debated around here, would be where the original capital of Rhudaur was located, and basically the homeland of the Hill-men that joined Angmar. There would also be more space to fit Mount Gram somewhere in the northern parts of the region.

And at the same time, we would now have a decently sized gap north of Trollshaws that could be its own zone, a part of "Rhudaur", or an expansion of the Misty Mountains region. I've named it Edge of the Wild on my image, for it's a term used by Tolkien several times during The Hobbit for an imaginary line that crosses this space (and where Karen Wynn Fonstad placed that name on her Eriador map), but they could name it something else, like Etten-something). This zone would act as if it were a PvE version of the Ettenmoors, expanding and fleshing out the lore about Rivendell's role as a bulwark against the north, and I think it might entice more players to try the actual PvP Ettenmoors after completing the zone.

Lore-wise, I think it makes some sense for the Ettenmoors to be a more remote and cold place than its current location in-game, even if it's not really an issue since the area isn't reachable on foot anyway. But I do feel that the region might be placed a little too close to Rivendell and the Trollshaws, while the Steps of Gram at the northwest still seem a little too far from Angmar.

Connection-wise, "Edge of the Wild/Ettendale/Ettenreach/Ettensomething" would offer an alternate way to reach the Misty Mountains' region, bypassing Rivendell. As has been said here before, Rivendell is supposed to be a hidden place that not that many people know about, but at the moment, in the game world, everyone just has to go through the place to reach the High Pass and cross the mountains. That issue would be fixed after this. This zone would also link with the Northern Trollshaws, the hypothetical "Rhudaur" region, and of course the PvP Ettenmoors (even if it's through a portal or stablemaster). I added a connection with Rivendell too, since that would be the path taken by the Elven armies to reach the moors.

https://i.imgur.com/qRzaYGh.jpg

/end-of-fanfiction ;)

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Think moving the Ettenmoors up is quite an interesting idea. Think the path through Rivendell can be ignored a bit and turn the road crossing the Bruinen into grass. The road could change direction to the north to the Edge of the wild and skip Rivendell entirely. Leave the ramp and the slope till Rivendell, but make it don't stand out. I think that is a pretty cool idea. So I think connecting Rivendell is not a good idea, but having the road lead around Rivendell is a pretty fun one. Could even let the road go up the slope on the otherside of the Bruinen, and let it continue north from that point on. That way the high moor camp doesn't seem out of place either.

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Originally Posted by Aleziana

I know it's a minor issue but I don't like the name Rhuduar for a location range north of Lone lands.

In most if not all the maps of middle earth in google search you will notice that Rhuduar is located in Trollsaws.

I understand that Arnor's sub-kingdom took Rhuduar name and expanded it all the way to weather top but that is not the case after the fall of Arnor as Rhuduar became Trollsaws.

Now I don't want to go against the books and the lore and of course I want to see what is north of Lone lands one day BUT the name in my opinion fits well in the region is Weather Hills.

Weather hills feels more catchy and fits more for the region close to weather top.

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Rhudaur is actually a pretty good name. The Trollshaws were only Rhudaur for a small part (Only the westside). Most of the people of Rhudaur lived in the east of the North Downs, North of the Lone-lands and the land inbetween. The Trollshaws was really just a forest without inhabitants, except for the north where the lost temple is.

Anyone else noticed Scenario started to contradict himself? :P I think it's conspiracy theory time!

"I enjoyed reading this history, both for Cardolan and what we're doing next" (=history of Arnor/Annuminas etc.)

"What we're doing next - and for the remain of the year? meaning next year I guess? - is nowhere near Minhiriath and Western Enedwaith!"

So...

1. Unless I just can't think of something brilliant "nowhere near" that would need Arnor research + technically we know there gotta be "sea salt" somewhere... sounds like Southern coast of Eriador to me? lol

2. Well, technically you may need some well-researched history of Arnor for far Western reaches of Gondor too, since that lied on the borders, so West of Gondor seems viable too, though a weird choice narratively (yeah, I know, Golasgil, but still not much you can do in these parts narratively post-war and like I've been saying we have more plots to tackle that just ask to be followed up on at last).

3. One more option is North, which is at Arnor's borders and everything to do with Angmar/Arnor history, but... then the "sea salt" would be a little bit frozen I guess :D Unexpected and not what you would typically think of as a tease for frozen places but hmm, maybe if I wanted to tease something like that, without being too obvious... Well, I wouldn't completely invalidate that option, and that's something I would love actually. I mean, all these Angmar story threads and Drugoth... narratively it would make a lot of sense, I would say, and man, wouldn't beyond the Ironspan, snowy West of Angmar or even Forodwaith be amazing...


But, say, if we imagine Nurn, Harad or East in general... heavy Arnor research seems hardly needed? So hmmmm

OR!

Scenario doesn't want anyone to guess so he has engaged in heavy Red Herring but what they're doing next can be Rhun or something like that, after all, so maybe we just shouldn't believe everything he says :P

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Originally Posted by Hierona

The Trollshaws was really just a forest without inhabitants, except for the north where the lost temple is.

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+ the stuff in the Angle, or other man-made ruins throughout Trollshaws, I think there are other Arnorian ones, not just elven. But yeah, North of Lonelands would be the center of the Kingdom



Scenario also mentioned they have everything ready to "update" older Eriador ruins if they ever have an opportunity, but it made me a bit worried -> as he himself mentioned, the older sets have many variations, plus it's outstanding that even after all these years I keep forgetting things, like "ah yes" because they were all distinct! Rhudaur had a little bit of green and that's how you can tell, Arthedain around the lake under the protection of the rangers is more pristine and more color survived, Fornost and Esteldin have their own looks with specific stonework, and then we have all these different lesser ruins all crumbled to dust, with colorless grey/bronze. Plus Cardolan now, which will be a little bit more pristine to bridge the gap between Arnor/Gondor styles but that's in the area where people not dare to cross due to weights, so logically more pristine aspects of the ruins survived. Makes a lot of sense and a nice difference to have!

In other words, it's great to have this new modern take on Cardolan, but if "updated old assets" means copy-paste the exact blocks from Cardolan albeit with changed textures - nope, please nope. Let's leave older zones as they are, eventually just incorporate the new distinct emblems somewhere throughout these older ruins, like maybe just one block from the new set with the right emblem attached, but don't change the old ruins altogether into the exact copy-paste blocks that were developed for CardoSwan because then, even through textures are different, it will feel less unique and more like the whole of Gondor or Mordor feel like - completely uniform in style including all the same shapes. Even through Arnorian ruins are supposed to represent ages of the fallen kingdoms, with pieces from vastly different time periods and styles, with turbulent history and treasure hunting scavengers in the mix. (the problem that Gondor or dwarven ruins in general don't have, so I'm more fine with them looking too uniform, since they can be better kept throughout history and the same architectural style just survives with no changes)

Where you can use these "kingdom variants with emblems" to their fullest though, is when filling the gaps, such as the center of Rhudaur or maybe something like West of Evendim for Arthedain. It would provide even more variations throughout Eriador and we can have all these different blocks and assets coexist, for as much variation throughout the world as possible.

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

Anyone else noticed Scenario started to contradict himself? :P I think it's conspiracy theory time!

"I enjoyed reading this history, both for Cardolan and what we're doing next" (=history of Arnor/Annuminas etc.)

"What we're doing next - and for the remain of the year? meaning next year I guess? - is nowhere near Minhiriath and Western Enedwaith!"

So...

1. Unless I just can't think of something brilliant "nowhere near" that would need Arnor research + technically we know there gotta be "sea salt" somewhere... sounds like Southern coast of Eriador to me? lol

2. Well, technically you may need some well-researched history of Arnor for far Western reaches of Gondor too, since that lied on the borders, so West of Gondor seems viable too, though a weird choice narratively (yeah, I know, Golasgil, but still not much you can do in these parts narratively post-war and like I've been saying we have more plots to tackle that just ask to be followed up on at last).

3. One more option is North, which is at Arnor's borders and everything to do with Angmar/Arnor history, but... then the "sea salt" would be a little bit frozen I guess :D Unexpected and not what you would typically think of as a tease for frozen places but hmm, maybe if I wanted to tease something like that, without being too obvious... Well, I wouldn't completely invalidate that option, and that's something I would love actually. I mean, all these Angmar story threads and Drugoth... narratively it would make a lot of sense, I would say, and man, wouldn't beyond the Ironspan, snowy West of Angmar or even Forodwaith be amazing...


But, say, if we imagine Nurn, Harad or East in general... heavy Arnor research seems hardly needed? So hmmmm

OR!

Scenario doesn't want anyone to guess so he has engaged in heavy Red Herring but what they're doing next can be Rhun or something like that, after all, so maybe we just shouldn't believe everything he says :P.

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Think it will be Umbar. Umbar has the same Numenorean roots and when making that place it is important to draw upon the estabilished style of Gondor and Arnor.

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

+ the stuff in the Angle, or other man-made ruins throughout Trollshaws, I think there are other Arnorian ones, not just elven. But yeah, North of Lonelands would be the center of the Kingdom

Scenario also mentioned they have everything ready to "update" older Eriador ruins if they ever have an opportunity, but it made me a bit worried -> as he himself mentioned, the older sets have many variations, plus it's outstanding that even after all these years I keep forgetting things, like "ah yes" because they were all distinct! Rhudaur had a little bit of green and that's how you can tell, Arthedain around the lake under the protection of the rangers is more pristine and more color survived, Fornost and Esteldin have their own looks with specific stonework, and then we have all these different lesser ruins all crumbled to dust, with colorless grey/bronze. Plus Cardolan now, which will be a little bit more pristine to bridge the gap between Arnor/Gondor styles but that's in the area where people not dare to cross due to weights, so logically more pristine aspects of the ruins survived. Makes a lot of sense and a nice difference to have!

In other words, it's great to have this new modern take on Cardolan, but if "updated old assets" means copy-paste the exact blocks from Cardolan albeit with changed textures - nope, please nope. Let's leave older zones as they are, eventually just incorporate the new distinct emblems somewhere throughout these older ruins, like maybe just one block from the new set with the right emblem attached, but don't change the old ruins altogether into the exact copy-paste blocks because then, even through textures are different, it will feel less unique and more like the whole of Gondor or Mordor feel like - completely uniform in style. Even through it's supposed to represent ages of the fallen kingdoms, with pieces from vastly different time periods and styles, with turbulent history and treasure hunting scavengers. (the problem that Gondor or dwarven ruins in general don't have, so I'm more fine with them looking too uniform, since they can be better kept)

Where you can use these "kingdom variants with emblems" to their fullest though, is when filling the gaps, such as the center of Rhudaur or maybe something like West of Evendim for Arthedain. It would provide even more variations throughout Eriador and we can have all these different blocks and assets coexist, for as much variation throughout the world as possible.

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Yeah, I always just assumed the Echad Cadaleth or something and Thorenhad were elven ruins. The Angle could be Rhudaur, but I considered it Cardolan tbh.

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Originally Posted by Hierona

Think it will be Umbar. Umbar has the same Numenorean roots and when making that place it is important to draw upon the estabilished style of Gondor and Arnor.

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Yeah, but that would be 1) history of Numenor more than anything 2) studying the assets as they were already established in the game, rather than history of Arnor = kings, events, disasters, origins of places etc. (plus you would be looking mainly to places like Osgiliath for later period architecture inspiration rather than Arnor, and Umbar as it is now - the kinstrife, heirs of Castamir etc has everything to do with Gondor)
So hmm, not sure.

(Also, I would rather not! LOL. Narratively sounds unneeded now and I want the storyline to continue, not take another halt and giant distraction. Also, I know they're saying NO NO NO, but they've been thinking the same thing about many things and game features in the past, so I would rather have Umbar left as an opportunity if they ever can feasibly have boats and traversable waters some years from now, which is very high demand among players, the boats - > hey, it would pretty symbolic too! because Jajax and his brother sailed towards Umbar on a... boat!)

I think it was specifically said these were Rhudaur ruins in the Angle (their last foothold - of the "good guys" - before the whole of the kingdom was swallowed by Angmar/Hillmen)

When I heard Scenario's comments, to me, it just sounds like he's had fun reading the lore-history of Cardolan and of the next place they are working on, which he's hinted is quite far from Arnor. I didn't glean that the next new zone next year has anything to do with Arnor.

So I second Hierona's guess that we may well finally approach Umbar OR, quite possibly, the missing parts of Gondor OR Nurn OR Rhun; we just know it probably isn't in Eriador from what Scenario said.

I do think it makes Umbar or "Far Gondor" more likely candidates - Umbar even likelier - because Umbar indeed has its own storied lore history in the Appendices much as Cardolan does; it's not like Rhun or Harad where we know next to nothing about it or Nurn where we only get a couple of brief paragraphs or "Far Gondor" that plays relatively little role in the histories. The bits and pieces we get RE- Rhun and Harad are more when they do incursions into Calenardhon / Rohan and/or Gondor- but that doesn't really tell us what their major cities were, or what happened over there, etc. The devs will have to do a ton of guess-work and invention.

As, with Cardolan, we have the Great Plague, the Angmar War, the Witch-King's sorcery, etc., and the history of Tharbad, and the big war against Sauron when Numenor intervened on behalf of the High Elves, Umbar also gives us a storied history: Ar-Pharazon's capture of Sauron, the (I'll use the game term) Vandassar, that it was a main hub of the King's Men and where the BN's fled to after the fall of Numenor, Gondor's re-possession and subsequent loss of the city, Castamir and his heirs, and then the rise of the Corsairs and that the Umbarrim attacked Gondor while Rohan dealt with Dunland (*in the era of Helm Hammerhand, Freca, Wulf, etc.), and . . . yeah, that's a lot of history.

So, if I had to guess what Scenario meant there, that's my honest guess. We glean that:

A- the next new zone will have a storied history, like Cardolan does;
B- it involves saltwater;
C- it's quite far from Minhiriath and Western Enedwaith.

We'll have to wait and see what comes next. I'm certainly excited! :D

Cheers! :D

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Originally Posted by Phantion

When I heard Scenario's comments, to me, it just sounds like he's had fun reading the lore-history of Cardolan and of the next place they are working on, which he's hinted is quite far from Arnor.

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Technically he said far from Minhiriath/Enedwaith but yeah, maybe. However, the words are funny sometimes. I only said that because to me, in context, it does sound more like his phrasing could be read like it's specifically about Arnor - "regarding the lore of the space" (=Arnor) followed up by "but it was interesting to read both for preparation Before the Shadow and for what we're doing next" So maybe it was just circumstantial, but never say never, who can tell :D But it might have implied Arnor was also part of the research for what's coming next, in some capacity

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

Technically he said far from Minhiriath/Enedwaith but yeah, maybe. However, the words are funny sometimes. I only said that because to me, in context, it does sound more like his phrasing could be read like it's specifically about Arnor - "regarding the lore of the space" (=Arnor) followed up by "but it was interesting to read both for preparation Before the Shadow and for what we're doing next" So maybe it was just circumstantial, but never say never, who can tell :D But it might have implied Arnor was also part of the research for what's coming next, in some capacity

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Yep :D Words sure are funny ;)

But if we square that with the "saltwater" hints from Sev earlier in the year . . . well, Arnor has no coastal regions. Rhudaur is the only part of Arnor we're missing some significant PvE territory from, and while they - could - be hinting in that direction . . . it doesn't really have an ocean or inland sea. It's just mountains, plains, and forests. Also, Minhiriath and West Enedwaith would indeed be coastal regions, especially if we think on the scale of "CardoSwan." So, . . . that rules them out! ;)

Who knows? They could surprise us and give us Forlindon finally! LOL!

Cheers! :D

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Originally Posted by Phantion

Who knows? They could surprise us and give us Forlindon finally! LOL!

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Well, I could see this region in need of some Arnorian history research too, since the two kingdoms needed to coexist somehow. Would have been a nice surprise though, yeah. Or, could be the coast North... unlikely, but there would be a slight chance, it is a coast albeit lots of ice :D Everything East of Forochel basically and could tie somehow into Angmar/Arnor history (hmm, that wouldn't be nowhere near stupid as an expansion though, because you're doing an engaging interesting dangerous part of the world but at the same you're filling in one of the remaining gaps but I guess not yet after snowy stuff we had in Gundabad... though I really wouldn't mind, like for Christmas maybe lol)

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Originally Posted by Valather89

I don't know about an exact 1:1 PvE copy of the Ettenmoors since the zone was designed from the ground up with only PvP in mind. But I do agree that there are stories to tell for that part of the world.

I think an argument could be made for relocating the current Ettenmoors a little to the northeast. Of course, I'm no dev so I know nothing about the technical challenges it would pose (I can only guess at the difficulty of changing the coordinates of every single thing and the complete mess it might create), but it would benefit the game world's connectiveness in several ways.

Take something like this (left is how things are in the game, right is my totally-not-feasible-idea :D):

https://i.gyazo.com/2f8647fffb762679...3da708f479.jpg -> https://i.imgur.com/QDRqByp.jpg

Moving the PvP zone to the northeast would allow for a wider space for "Rhudaur", instead of having to work with the relatively narrow gap that currently exists between the North Downs and the Ettenmoors. This zone, as previously debated around here, would be where the original capital of Rhudaur was located, and basically the homeland of the Hill-men that joined Angmar. There would also be more space to fit Mount Gram somewhere in the northern parts of the region.

And at the same time, we would now have a decently sized gap north of Trollshaws that could be its own zone, a part of "Rhudaur", or an expansion of the Misty Mountains region. I've named it Edge of the Wild on my image, for it's a term used by Tolkien several times during The Hobbit for an imaginary line that crosses this space (and where Karen Wynn Fonstad placed that name on her Eriador map), but they could name it something else, like Etten-something). This zone would act as if it were a PvE version of the Ettenmoors, expanding and fleshing out the lore about Rivendell's role as a bulwark against the north, and I think it might entice more players to try the actual PvP Ettenmoors after completing the zone.

Lore-wise, I think it makes some sense for the Ettenmoors to be a more remote and cold place than its current location in-game, even if it's not really an issue since the area isn't reachable on foot anyway. But I do feel that the region might be placed a little too close to Rivendell and the Trollshaws, while the Steps of Gram at the northwest still seem a little too far from Angmar.

Connection-wise, "Edge of the Wild/Ettendale/Ettenreach/Ettensomething" would offer an alternate way to reach the Misty Mountains' region, bypassing Rivendell. As has been said here before, Rivendell is supposed to be a hidden place that not that many people know about, but at the moment, in the game world, everyone just has to go through the place to reach the High Pass and cross the mountains. That issue would be fixed after this. This zone would also link with the Northern Trollshaws, the hypothetical "Rhudaur" region, and of course the PvP Ettenmoors (even if it's through a portal or stablemaster). I added a connection with Rivendell too, since that would be the path taken by the Elven armies to reach the moors.

https://i.imgur.com/qRzaYGh.jpg

/end-of-fanfiction ;)

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I like this option if there is no way of making a PvE version of the Ettenmoors - however, I wonder whether this would actually be just as difficult as remaking a copy of the Ettenmoors somewhere else entirely, and if it involves the same effort, I’d rather it was moved completely at a PvE version was fully integrated along the two other zones you’ve suggested.

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Originally Posted by Tirian-Hammerfist

I like this option if there is no way of making a PvE version of the Ettenmoors - however, I wonder whether this would actually be just as difficult as remaking a copy of the Ettenmoors somewhere else entirely, and if it involves the same effort, I’d rather it was moved completely at a PvE version was fully integrated along the two other zones you’ve suggested.

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Would be cool if you could go to the moors just by walking in. Why spend time and resources on a seperate map while it is also accesible now?

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Originally Posted by Hierona

Would be cool if you could go to the moors just by walking in. Why spend time and resources on a seperate map while it is also accesible now?

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If that's feasible and there would be more wide entry points so it doesn't look like it's such a boxed area (so teleport portals for freeps, but monsters can't use those) then why not, I wouldn't mind, would have been cool. It all depends on feasibility and what the devs might have in mind if they ever get to doing Rhudaur/Gram. Though, narratively, I would say there is really not much value to completely redoing Moors and having two versions of it, and mostly anything lore relevant can be dealt with in adjacent zones, so yeah, I agree - if feasible, better to have entry points to the current Moors. (and have some traffic flowing into Moors from the open-world) We have much more interesting places and more dire plot threads to visit so why waste time, true.

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

Scenario also mentioned they have everything ready to "update" older Eriador ruins if they ever have an opportunity, but it made me a bit worried -> as he himself mentioned, the older sets have many variations, plus it's outstanding that even after all these years I keep forgetting things, like "ah yes" because they were all distinct! Rhudaur had a little bit of green and that's how you can tell, Arthedain around the lake under the protection of the rangers is more pristine and more color survived, Fornost and Esteldin have their own looks with specific stonework, and then we have all these different lesser ruins all crumbled to dust, with colorless grey/bronze. Plus Cardolan now, which will be a little bit more pristine to bridge the gap between Arnor/Gondor styles but that's in the area where people not dare to cross due to weights, so logically more pristine aspects of the ruins survived. Makes a lot of sense and a nice difference to have!

In other words, it's great to have this new modern take on Cardolan, but if "updated old assets" means copy-paste the exact blocks from Cardolan albeit with changed textures - nope, please nope. Let's leave older zones as they are, eventually just incorporate the new distinct emblems somewhere throughout these older ruins, like maybe just one block from the new set with the right emblem attached, but don't change the old ruins altogether into the exact copy-paste blocks that were developed for CardoSwan because then, even through textures are different, it will feel less unique and more like the whole of Gondor or Mordor feel like - completely uniform in style including all the same shapes. Even through Arnorian ruins are supposed to represent ages of the fallen kingdoms, with pieces from vastly different time periods and styles, with turbulent history and treasure hunting scavengers in the mix. (the problem that Gondor or dwarven ruins in general don't have, so I'm more fine with them looking too uniform, since they can be better kept throughout history and the same architectural style just survives with no changes)

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I so hope they don't mess with the old ruins other than perhaps a little bump in texture quality, please don't redesign them. The amount of work which was put into making each cultures' structures look different and where they were placed took a lot of man-hours. If they do some kind of quick broad brush attempt at modernising them there will inevitably be mistakes and things overlooked that might not ever get fixed. Discovering and exploring the various ruins of Eriador is to me one of the best parts of the game and I would hate to lose or diminish that rewarding experience.

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Originally Posted by auximenes

I so hope they don't mess with the old ruins other than perhaps a little bump in texture quality, please don't redesign them. The amount of work which was put into making each cultures' structures look different and where they were placed took a lot of man-hours. If they do some kind of quick broad brush attempt at modernising them there will inevitably be mistakes and things overlooked that might not ever get fixed. Discovering and exploring the various ruins of Eriador is to me one of the best parts of the game and I would hate to lose or diminish that rewarding experience.

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Yes, but Cardolan also makes some of these ruins make markedly less sense.


Take Fornost, for example. The heirs of Valandil have to move the capital there - and Gwindeth floods Annuminas (*how that tale makes any strategic sense for a kingdom to not only surrender but - flood - its most prestigious capital city is still beyond my understanding; symbolic, yes - Gwindeth loved Elendil; but very, very impractical - unless we're to understand that they just could not maintain Annuminas any longer and didn't have the population; I'm fuzzy on those details).

https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Fornost_Erain

All right. Now, if we are to understand this rightly, Arthedain is the "true successor" of Arnor - the one where the line of Kings continues to become the Chieftains of the Dunedain from Elendil down to Aragorn.

Now, Cardolan's updated ruins are very impressive. Many tall towers. Many Gondorian architectural echoes. Perhaps we might understand this as related to its closer proximity to Gondor's older borders in Enedwaith with Tharbad as the go-between for trade. But Cardolan is so impressive because it looks remarkably "in tact" compared to the other ruins elsewhere.

It is true that the Witch-King besieged and then occupied Fornost - but he did the same to Cardolan and destroyed it as well. So, the WK isn't a legitimate reason for why Arthedain's ruins now look far more bare-bones-weathered-down compared to Cardolan's. It also doesn't explain why Fornost doesn't have any hints of that older Numenorean style (*as in the Annuminas buildings, Gondorian buildings, and now some of Cardolan's buildings) at all.

I can buy what Scenario said about grave-robbers stripping them of gold etchings and reliefs and so on. But that the form and shape of it is so dissimilar . . . even the Men of Dunharrow ruins in the Paths of the Dead evoke Numenorean structures. Fornost strikes me now as a primitive Edainic city - certainly not Dunedain - other than that one statue perched high over the gate to the main part of the city.

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So, here's my point. Should the ruins look distinct and reflect different stages of Arnorian history? Absolutely. Do I like the current - format - the structure of the way Fornost is built? Yes. But those castle turrets just look "basic medieval" - not really specifically Arnorian. So, I do think I'd like them to take some of Cardolan's new towers, re-format them to fit Fornost's current aesthetic and location - give it the greyer look, maybe alter the textures to reflect its distinct environment - while giving it that "this was once the capital of Arnor-that-is-lost" flare. It's not good that Tyrn Gorthad feels more Arnorian than Fornost now, in my view - and I'm loving the looks of Tyrn Gorthad.

I think they did too good of a job in Cardolan :) I think also that while I don't want everything to just feel like a "copy / paste" spree without any sensitivity to detail or locale - so I do agree with you there - I also think that Cardolan's method of fusing the Annuminas / Gondorian style with the "Classic LOTRO Arnorian ruins" style was the way to go to make Arnor feel unique while still reminding us that, yes, in fact, it's still Arnor and Arnorian culture.

If anything, Fornost, because it was built later than Annuminas - far later - should look even more in tact with perhaps some more weathered parts / things to indicate that it had been through a disastrous siege with Angmar and overcome by Angmar - while still reminding us of its unique Arnorian heritage that in fact stems from Numenor.

Let me give this irl analogy. Castel Angelo, a medieval-turned-renaissance fortress, was built a very long time after the ancient Roman forum. But you can still tell, even with its medieval escarpments, that it was built with "Rome" in mind and has some features, including its dome, that denote it as Roman. The Roman forum ruins are very weathered, worn down, and many of their original structures were lost. But you can still tell, by the nature of its surviving columns, the remarkable survival of that Senate House, etc., that it's uniquely Roman. The Pantheon does the same thing on a far grander scale.

I've been playing since 2011. I think the honest truth is that Fornost was simply designed a bit before Annuminas was and that they only had the assets they had to work with at the time, which is how and why we got what we got. I don't find it has as much to do with lore justifications; simply, it was what they had available at that stage of the game's development. Now that I can buy that Cardolan and Gondor share the same architectural roots of Numenor: I'd like to be able to do that with Arthedain and Rhudaur as well but in some more thoughtful, focused ways.

I'll give another analogy. Rohan has many Gondorian ruins as it was once part of Gondor. But you can thoroughly tell those ruins are Gondorian. You know where you're standing. Think of Snowbourn, for example.

If any of the Arnorian architectures should look the most worn-down and de-faced, I'd say it should be Rhudaur's since it became part of Angmar and may have actively turned against its origins, including in its architecture. Fornost's architecture, to me, looks like it would pass for a former capital of Rhudaur - but Arthedain? No, not in its current appearance. I need to see some Numenorean-inspired towers and manors and the like mingled with Fornost's current ruins; I don't want them to remove what they've done. I want them to - integrate - the styles in a unique, sensitive way that most befits Fornost's unique situation - not some random copy-paste job with little regard for what's going on.

I think the textures should be different than Cardolan's - it's considerably far more north and perhaps colder than Cardolan's warmer, river-land climate. It shouldn't have moss growing on it, for example. I think that they should play with the style a bit - if they ever return to revamp Arthedain's ruins. But the way I can see Tyrn Gorthad tower above Cardolan? I'd like to see Fornost do that across the North Downs landscape. This was Annuminas' "replacement"- and I'm not so convinced it was so with the current architecture.

By the way, it was possibly built between S.A. 3320 - and T.A. 861, when it became capital of Arthedain. So it's construction is indeed far closer to Arnor's Second Age origins than not. So, by that logic, it should look even more "Numenorean-inspired" than Cardolan does, which currently looks more "Numenorean-inspired" than Arthedain / Fornost does.

--- Anyways, it's all just a "What If they went back and revamped?" question; it sounds like their main focus will turn elsewhere and have little to do with it, so it's moot anyway :)

Cheers! :D

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Originally Posted by Phantion

Now, Cardolan's updated ruins are very impressive. Many tall towers. Many Gondorian architectural echoes. Perhaps we might understand this as related to its closer proximity to Gondor's older borders in Enedwaith with Tharbad as the go-between for trade.

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Yes, exactly, and this is what's so great about it. We don't just have "Arnorian ruins!" (the way we have them for Gondor which I wish had more variety) but we can observe distinct differences in style or even vast differences, and here they're a merge between the two worlds. That's fitting. Also, remember, geographically, Cardolan has more to do with Numenor (before Arnor and Gondor were even a thing) than any of these Northern lands of Eriador ever did.

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Originally Posted by Phantion

But Cardolan is so impressive because it looks remarkably "in tact" compared to the other ruins elsewhere.

It is true that the Witch-King besieged and then occupied Fornost - but he did the same to Cardolan and destroyed it as well.

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For Cardolan it makes sense due to the *barrow weights specifically sent to hunt these lands to discourage people* so you would indeed have less robbers or people harnessing building materials. Plus, the Witch-king defeated Cardolan but we're never told he made it his main base of operations... and that's what he actually did to Fornost and populated it with evil folk. He basically made Fornost his new evil capital, for a time. Do you really think impressive Arnorian-distinct markings and nice towers with decorations would remain? Of course not, they would either repurpose it in mockery or tear it all down very effectively during their stay. Like in Minas Ithil, for example, when it became Minas Morgul. As for that one remaining statue looming above the entrance, it would be a perfectly reasonable take to say it was probably left mostly intact (and evil-decorated) in mockery - kind of like the king of the Crossroads.

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Originally Posted by Phantion

So, the WK isn't a legitimate reason for why Arthedain's ruins now look far more bare-bones-weathered-down compared to Cardolan's. It also doesn't explain why Fornost doesn't have any hints of that older Numenorean style (*as in the Annuminas buildings, Gondorian buildings, and now some of Cardolan's buildings) at all.

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Witch-king IS a legitimate reason why it would be completely stripped apart of any Arthedain markings and specific-Arnorian marvels of architecture, like amazing arches or decorative towers. Considering the lore and WK's strong presence there post-fall, if we were to visit Fornost that was super colorful with Arnorian stars and emblems everywhere, the way Evendim and Cardolan are, now that would be super off. It would be incredibly hard to believe WK would just leave all these things intact and... wake up everyday to detailed Arnorian reliefs and fancy towers evoking the splendor of Numenor looming over him? (well, I don't think he can sleep! but still, you get the point)

Now, you're right of course, because some of it would be in part due to when it was built by the devs and some of these older towers/structures don't look as impressive and advanced as these other newer places we have. But still, it doesn't exactly crash with the lore and it isn't off at all - considering the lore - if it looks unimpressive. Now, if you imagine Minas Morgul but completely stripped off of all the *Morgul* pieces (including the fancy Morgul-styled towers!) so only the grey Gondorian parts remain... it would pretty unimpressive too, considering how advanced and impressive this city was supposed to be. Now, Fornost would be kinda like that - if they ever created a "Fornost in the past" as a seat of the Witch-king, I can easily imagine Fornost almost exactly as it is now PLUS it has iron spikes and Angmarim-styled/Morgul-styled architecture everywhere, with additional towers, iron arches and whatnot. Would be impressive and a site to behold but... pretty evil of course. Dunedain never repaired Fornost but they would have destroyed everything Witch-king related in it, at the very least. And that's how we get Fornost we have now, so I don't see it as being off at all. It got "nuked" and repurposed, so yes, it is just a pale shadow - once you strip it off of the evil parts, replacements and improvements.

For the stuff in Cardolan: Witch-king didn't personally reside in these other cities for longer than needed (so during war campaigns), so once he moved out, there was no "big project" to make it all more suitable to his liking and completely devastated. But one can be assured there was a big project with Fornost (and to a degree, by proximity, in the entire area).

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Originally Posted by Phantion

I can buy what Scenario said about grave-robbers stripping them of gold etchings and reliefs and so on. But that the form and shape of it is so dissimilar . . . even the Men of Dunharrow ruins in the Paths of the Dead evoke Numenorean structures.

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Which is not a feature but a lack of feature - rehashing and copy-paste, simply put. They do their best but they can't always create brand new assets, so here they just used the ones they had. But I wish these ruins were actually more unique rather than just so strongly Numenorean as you say (but in truth not exactly Numenorean, they merged different assets they had at hand, so it's got parts of Dol Guldur, some Gondorian stuff, some others etc! - it was really my least likeable thing about the Paths, even though they did try to make it somehow bearable and dreary cool-looking).

The point being - no, Paths of the Dead shouldn't be so strongly "Numenorean" and not every Arnorian city needs to strongly evoke style or shape of either Arnor/Gondor/Numenor or all of them. I get what Scenario is saying about the team getting comfortable with some specific shape-forms (and how these are useful in game design). So far, I was mostly fine with these shape-forms reoccurring, because like I said - in active, unfractured kingdoms such as Gondor or Mordor their architectural style can be a bit more "coordinated" (plus Mordor built on top of many Gondorian structures). But for Arnor, given the passage of time, Northern populace which would be more distinct, and then how fractured that kingdom was and very turbulent wars... I like that there are visibly DIFFERENT shapes, yes, because this sounds natural and does show a defragmentation theme here. If Fornost and all these other older ruins we have (so outside of Cardolan and Anuminnas) were to be changed to evoke these new shapes and forms... well, it would be like trying to go back to Angmar and Dol Guldur and trying to make it look and feel more like Mordor does - but what would be the point? More variety is better and no, it's not unnatural but rather perfectly natural.




Though I do agree they could just go back to Fornost and spice it up a bit with some new towers, maybe higher more impressive walls here and there, or maybe add a new 'level' somewhere at the back that's supposed to be the main seat etc (which would also make Fornost feel bigger than it does now) - but at the same time DO NOT overdo it and almost certainly - no emblems, no impressive stars, no color, no fancy surviving reliefs etc. It CANNOT look as impressive as Cardolan does, that's the point.

As for going back to other Eriador ruins, the "people and robbers did it!" makes perfect sense for other places in Northern Eriador and Anuminnas is already impressive as it is in its own unique style, as a seat of Arnor. It has no strong connection to Gondorian architecture and that's fitting. So no need to do much with these older ruins. Maybe just add a piece from these new sets, here and there, with these new kingdom-specific emblems, that would be enough to give them more identity.

Alas, what I think is more important isn't what Phantion suggested but something completely different - there are some specific structure assets with specific shapes that look particularly bad on the horizon, and it's very prevalent, so not just limited to Eriador - Anuminnas, Gondor, Osgiliath, Rohan... some of the fancy finishers of the towers, for example, didn't age well, they aged VERY bad and are very odd on landscape, like the Snowbourn ruined towers, almost immediately you can tell they feel like paper models, not a solid gold or arches. Same with this column, at the top on both sides, for example, looks awful and super fake. Not sure if LOTRO can fix some of these without more polygons and better model tech (and I'm not certain whether it's different in Cardolan or not), but THAT'S something I would replace for each and every of these assets that evoke such strong paper model feelings... like, I'm not really getting that impression with many of the old ruin sets of Eriador, but I do get it all the time with these decorative towers or some particularly shaped arches, even in newer regions! That would be something to focus on, replace/fix/adjust/change what looks particularly bad and fake on the horizon... rather than getting rid of variety and making things feel the same everywhere :P

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Originally Posted by Phantion

Now that I can buy that Cardolan and Gondor share the same architectural roots of Numenor: I'd like to be able to do that with Arthedain and Rhudaur as well but in some more thoughtful, focused ways.

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I don't think you get it though - I mean, sure, they could share these in some ways someplaces but it's been literal ages and both Arnor and Gondor were separate kingdoms in the end. So they don't need to stay never-changing and single-minded (in style). In addition, if they were EVER to show us ANYTHING from the island of Numenor in a flashback... I want it to evoke some Arnorian and Gondorian vibes, yes, but in general look VASTLY different, in some way. The old "Numenorean" structures of the game world would be almost exclusively the "Numenorean fortified port/colony" places of old. They may be indicative of what LOTRO's Numenor would look like, to some degree, but the "Numenorean" style and how they built and how they lived could be vastly different than in the colonies, which were fortified places near the coasts and rivers. Also, there could have been differently looking things in different provinces etc. But yeah, it's specifically the military that would have the strongly recognizable architectural patterns as far as towers, gates and keeps go - so that's why these Numenorean ruins make sense in their strong uniformity and why this style works very well for Cardolan around Tharbad etc.

But then, one would need to take into account that North of Eriador and its key keeps are nowhere near "this was once a Numenorean place near the river built with this specific pattern in mind!" No, it's all uniquely Arnorian where they would try to evoke whatever they remember of their island homes. Or even partly built on top of what was there before and inspired by that, completely unrelated to Numenor - you know, once it became a kingdom encompassing other lands beyond the Numenorean colonies. So obviously Anuminnas as a capitol and other very key places like that would be impressive and very reminiscent of Numenorean glory but who is to say some of these other Arnorian cities didn't have a "lesser man" flair and strong influences? Especially away from rivers, beyond the old Numenorean colonies. Esteldin, for example, feels a bit like that. The same could be said about all these Rhudarian ruins - the only place where I feel like Rhudaur needs a boost up in "impressive" would be its old capital (not yet in the game), but even that - as completely "away from major rivers" parts of Arnor - could have very strong influences of the "lesser man" styles and architects paying homage to local peoples, or going for a completely different Arnorian-specific style but not exactly inspired by Numenor etc.

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Originally Posted by Phantion

So, here's my point. Should the ruins look distinct and reflect different stages of Arnorian history? Absolutely. Do I like the current - format - the structure of the way Fornost is built? Yes. But those castle turrets just look "basic medieval" - not really specifically Arnorian.

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So yeah, for example, with more "basic medieval" turrets :) Sounds about right, they would just need to make them higher and more impressive for the capital of Rhudaur
There would be a "lesser people" influences throughout these kingdoms. It's not like the whole populace of Gondor and Arnor were actual Numenorean survivors, with only "Numenorean school" architects working on every single project ever undertaken across these lands... Wish we had more difference for Gondor too, but well, yeah... let's just pretend there were some strict architectural rules in Gondor and strong royal bureaucracy to enforce them! But I love the fact that it doesn't need to be said about Arnor right now, that's the immersion and a feature, not a lack of feature ;)

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Originally Posted by Phantion

Let me give this irl analogy. Castel Angelo, a medieval-turned-renaissance fortress, was built a very long time after the ancient Roman forum. But you can still tell, even with its medieval escarpments, that it was built with "Rome" in mind and has some features, including its dome, that denote it as Roman. The Roman forum ruins are very weathered, worn down, and many of their original structures were lost. But you can still tell, by the nature of its surviving columns, the remarkable survival of that Senate House, etc., that it's uniquely Roman. The Pantheon does the same thing on a far grander scale.

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Good analogy, however there was no evil Witch-king with hordes of vandalizing orcs and evil men. :D Sure, in irl history there was cultural vandalism too, in particular related to "pagan things" but all in all, it wasn't such a widespread coordinated effort to make a city-wide statement. The evil guys of Tolkien though, they do make a statement, especially if Witch-king is involved (the guy that's immortal, so you know, there is some worth to a longer project like that... at least from his perspective, nevermind the servants, evil citizens and slaves forced to wok on it day and night).

On top of that, Castle Angelo is in Rome, heart of the Empire... many of these Arnorian places would be equivalents of something like Gaul, Britannia or even Germania, let's say. You wouldn't have fancy Roman features embedded as strongly literally everywhere but merely "here and there". That's what I mean - things shouldn't be almost uniformly splendorous and indicative of Numenor everywhere.

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Originally Posted by Phantion

I'll give another analogy. Rohan has many Gondorian ruins as it was once part of Gondor. But you can thoroughly tell those ruins are Gondorian. You know where you're standing. Think of Snowbourn, for example.

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Yeah, I always wish for more variety, but in this case I really really am just telling myself - Gondor was very good at strict architectural rules... and somehow got the architects to be schooled in the same way everywhere and educated by the state so no other influences remain, just the kingdom's official style with some Numenorean influences. Ah. Plus the black stone of Orthanc, at least we have this one for variety in Gondor!

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

Witch-king IS a legitimate reason why it would be completely stripped apart of any Arthedain markings and specific-Arnorian marvels of architecture, like amazing arches or decorative towers. Considering the lore and WK's strong presence there post-fall, if we were to visit Fornost that was super colorful with Arnorian stars and emblems everywhere, the way Evendim and Cardolan are, now that would be super off. It would be incredibly hard to believe WK would just leave all these things intact and... wake up everyday to detailed Arnorian reliefs and fancy towers evoking the splendor of Numenor looming over him? (well, I don't think he can sleep! but still, you get the point)

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You mean like how the Witch-King knocked down every ornamental tower and reminder of Gondor in Minas Morgul, which was stripped so bare of ornament Frodo, Sam, and Gollum only saw a grey, grim mound in the distance?

Oh - right......................... and Arnor was founded by Elendil, who came from Numenor................. and all his knowledge of it with him................... I do agree with the need for variety with some of the "more recent" (*relatively speaking in the timeline) elements of Arnorian civilization across the North, further from the colonies, etc. But Fornost was fairly close to Evendim, was built in closer proximity to Annuminas' construction, and so I maintain still makes zero sense in it's current form - including with the Witch-King's occupation in mind. I could see the Witch-King adding Angmarim and Minas Morgul elements to it, of course. But he probably didn't knock down whole towers just because; and he probably didn't diminish its defenses, expecting a counter-attack from the Elves or someone else. At best, he probably cast a ghostly corpse-like glow all over the place: like he would one day do in Minas Morgul. Speaking of which: Minas Ithil had not yet fallen; it fell and became Minas Morgul only after the Witch-King's defeat in the North. So, perhaps he practiced with Fornost.

Neither of us are right or wrong anyway; it's all just differing interpretations :) A compromise would be a far more stripped-bare yet still recognizably "built by the immediate heirs of Isildur and Elendil" update to Fornost that would still make it fit the chronology. I'm also not a fan of having the pinnacle of the city be cut-off from in-game exploration as an instance space. If they can make Stoneheight available to player exploration - as they did - then they should also do it to Fornost.

Cheers! :D

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Originally Posted by Phantion

....Cheers! :D

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Speaking of Fornost, in battle for middle earth 2 game they made dwarves settle in there (playing evil campaign). The mix of dwarven buildings with Arnorian ruins was really nice . Although it may be a lore breaking I found BFMEs 2 adaption really nice and I would like something similar to happen in lotro .

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Originally Posted by Phantion

I do agree with the need for variety with some of the "more recent" (*relatively speaking in the timeline) elements of Arnorian civilization across the North, further from the colonies, etc.

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Not just more recent though - presumably, Arnor integrated many of the local peoples, so it's not unlikely for "lesser" influences to exist at the very start, at its conception, yeah, especially in the North. Which is why places like Esteldin and "basic medieval" turrets do not strike me as off at all. Basic "Edain" settlements are probably what they have all developed from in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Phantion

But Fornost was fairly close to Evendim, was built in closer proximity to Annuminas' construction

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It's close proximity in the game-world, but what is close proximity in game world, is realistically entire provinces away :P

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Originally Posted by Phantion

I could see the Witch-King adding Angmarim and Minas Morgul elements to it, of course. But he probably didn't knock down whole towers just because; and he probably didn't diminish its defenses, expecting a counter-attack from the Elves or someone else. At best, he probably cast a ghostly corpse-like glow all over the place: like he would one day do in Minas Morgul. Speaking of which: Minas Ithil had not yet fallen; it fell and became Minas Morgul only after the Witch-King's defeat in the North. So, perhaps he practiced with Fornost.

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Which is why I said they could actually spice it up with some well-integrated more advanced towers, walls and maybe even a whole new section :D

But yeah, the WK *would have* devastated it otherwise... so no fancy reliefs, Arnorian markings, color, distinct features and dignified vibes...

You know that there is (or at least was) a whole version of Fornost in the game, right? I would say in this form there is quite a lot of Arthedain

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...260&height=610
https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...260&height=615
https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...260&height=634


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yy3x...MiniExpBounder

Yeah, true, but this whole version was basically just a concept by one of the devs, from what I understand - and if it was ever to materialize, some of these would need to be replaced by new assets, rather than these warn pieces from other places like Evendim ruins. It's like the concept for Dunland (before Enedwaith was a thing) that was abandoned - it uses Bree structures for fake Dunlending town, but these would need to be replaced by new assets if this project was to be realized.

nvm, posted to wrong thread.