Let’s Discuss Monster Play

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Originally Posted by Turin347

- Disable legendary items in Pvmp areas and make exclusive (old-style) weapons for Pvmp, without weird huge modifiers for any skill.

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I like this idea and also have a firm lower cap on stats that stands apart from PVE and should help to keep balance along with the variable incoming healing.

Also, disable slotted armour from PVE and can use either none slotted armour from PVE or PVP armour available from vendor in GV

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Originally Posted by Strider5548

1) PvMP will never maintain proper balance if the concept of PvE gear, LI's, virtues, and trait points exists as things characters progress over time through increasing level caps. As stats, tracery slots, and trait points increase the class balance dynamic completely shifts with every level cap increase. Freeps constantly becoming more powerful not only makes it so that SSG needs to constantly rebalance Creeps, but it also excludes low level players from PvP because scaling will never work if it's a moving target. My first suggestion is a big one, and that is to force 100% PvP gear (including weapons to replace LI's) as a requirement for PvMP. Make sure players can acquire a full set of gear even at rank 0, and have gear improve with ranks and by bartering. In addition to full PvP gear/weapons, trait points for freeps should be capped at a pre-determined level (pick your favorite level cap) and everyone in the Moors should have access to 100% of the available trait points.

Think of it like if you enter the Moors, you should have a whole new set of trait set-ups and gear configurations. If SSG could build a UI around this so players don't have to manage multiple sets of gear in bags it would be ideal.

With everyone's gear coming from the same pool and trait points capped, the only thing left to scale is stats from virtues. If we can get consistent scaling here then any player from low level to 140 through to future level caps should be able to engage in PvMP in a consistently balanced way. Most importantly this will create a system that can be managed over time.

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I really like this suggestion. It will take some time to make all of the sets for the different classes and also figure out the improvements for each rank. However, this way they only need to balance it once. Not with every expansion.

I'm not an expert on monster play. But I've read that when 50 was cap, pvmp was quite good. I don't know if this has been suggested and if this is even doable but what if our characters were scaled down to lvl 50, including gear? This happens in Pelargir, except its lvl 100. Then you could adjust the stats of each player, give an interval and all that. Players would have around 3k-10k morale or something, as it is usual for 50. Monsters would have the same, maybe slightly higher. You could base the change on the SoA stats and try something similar. Besides it would make sense because Ettenmoors is part of Eriador and was originally lvl 50. I know the game is more complex now, traits work differently and there are legendaries, but maybe you could change the stats to a point were they would be fair, and work well. Edit: Some people suggested disabling LIs. Its the kind of suggestion I support, simplify the system.

On the subject of lag.

Addressing lag, latency, performance, and animation issues is an ongoing effort. If there were a magic dust that made the lag go away I would use that as my first action - because everyone in the game benefits from that magical fix. That said, I am looking at ways that I can reduce perf issues that exist because of the Ettenmoor's structure. It's all exploration at this point. Nothing concrete.

well the plus side to all this is we can assume that the plans are NOT to shut down pvmp ?

good to see you back !

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Originally Posted by Yicky

Unfortunately most of what I see is surface and is not really going to promote any ideal growth or balance in bringing people back to PVP. The biggest issue outside of lag is the fact that you are working advanced customizable main game classes(freeps) vs basic NPC based secondary classes(creeps). With now Easier customizable LIs, gear, trait trees, and general management of freep classes you will never be able to properly balance the sides out to make it enjoyable. Unless you re-work the moors and build out an instanced based PVP to bring equal balance closer to center, changing the map around, adding more PVE(including outside moors rewards which doesn't help anything for creeps), and reducing healing(which will add more imbalance), you are just going to end up with broken system.

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These are challenges. These are the pieces of an intricate puzzle that is all one color with no defining marks to make it clear how they really fit. You are correct. This is hard. There is no silver bullet solution. In an ideal world, our initial implementation would not skew toward there being more monster players than players. Our leveling systems would link and match across the board so that there was parity on each side. Issues would still exist between classes as it does with any game.

I'd argue that right now, the feature is cracked - not broken.

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Originally Posted by Yicky

Start.From.Scratch. That is really all you can do at this point as things are so broken, you have hardly anything to pick up and put back together. SOA was some of the closest balance you are going to find. If you try to limit one thing on freeps, they will find a new build design that will break the balance and benefit yet again. Until you equal the design of both sides, you are going to be lost. Just my opinion.

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Not on the table.

My goals are to apply band-aids in places where there are clear wounds to start assessing the deeper issues that exist. It will take time, effort, and patience.

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Originally Posted by Ryvick

Quite frankly the only way I see PvMP as ever eventually getting to an acceptable place for everyone involved would be to rip Freeps out of the Moors altogether and setting up a Free Creep system (Identical but Mirrored to Creeps) in its place. I simply do not see any other method that would allow Devs to make changes that wouldn't in some way affect players in the rest of the PvE world and allow Devs to easily alter PvMP on a whim.

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We thought about this ages ago. You're not wrong that it would make balancing the experience much easier. However, the system for rewarding a player for playing a session based character are cumbersome and take a large investiture of time to incorporate. Additionally, we would need to rework all of the existing monster player skills to function differently than they already do.

In hindsight, if we made this decision in 2007... alas.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

We thought about this ages ago. You're not wrong that it would make balancing the experience much easier. However, the system for rewarding a player for playing a session based character are cumbersome and take a large investiture of time to incorporate. Additionally, we would need to rework all of the existing monster player skills to function differently than they already do.

In hindsight, if we made this decision in 2007... alas.

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Is it possible to scale all PvMP content to level 100, erase PvE gear from freeps in PvMP and balance characters from there?

IMO trying to balance PvMP with each expansion adding more values and numbers to it is what makes things so complicated and unbalanced


If PvMP level cap was 100 for ever, players and creeps would always have the same values and there would be no need to retouch PvMP with every level cap increase.

It would only require for devs to balance PvMP gear/skills and stop focusing on stats stacked above each level cap increase.

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Originally Posted by TearMaker

After the first pass reading your OP - I have a couple of things that spring right out at me.

a) moving OC/EC is great but they have to be the old iteration or of the same ilk and not the invisible wall affair that it is now. Personally I don't care that the new camps looked visually beautiful - they weren't functional.

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Answering you, though many have commented on this one. I should have been more clear in my explanation.

When the camps move back to their old locations the functionality they once had will return. Fall back points that are defensive in nature with an escape route once they are overrun.

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Originally Posted by TearMaker

b) I would close the DoF and concentrate on the core part of the game. The keeps and OP and making the scaling non patch way of adjusting the INC Healing - which will have a far larger aspect. Then if there is any budget left play with the Delving to your hearts content. But, it isn't an issue that is needed.

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DoF changes might require a removal of access for a time. However, the goal here is to make the main advancement path for PvMP to funnel through DoF until a later time.

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Originally Posted by Estelher

Quite a few of the problems with PvP/PvE debates (and also raider/non-raider, hardcore/casual) that seem perennially to crop up is an apparent lack of co-ordination between two aspects of the game. It may seem simpler to take the "we'll do this whatever the consequences; the other lot can do what they like" view, but that presupposes a hard division between two player bases and systems that doesn't exist, and almost inevitably leads to anger, resentment and backtracking and fixes in the future.

How many times have we seen the howls of fury when one game option provides rewards unavailable to its counterpart, particularly when those rewards affect both aspects of the game? I do beg you to consider doing everything possible not only to co-ordinate with the non-PvMP developers when it comes to rewards, but just as importantly to let us know that this is so - rather than risk giving the false impression that any related PVE issues may or may not be dealt with, but you're not fussed by them.

I'd have been more encouraged by a response along the lines of "We know this and will be working with the rest of the team to ensure that both paths offer similarly viable rewards".

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Earnestly, the issue of ensuring that the reward tracks are equivalent but different has always been one of resources. I cannot promise that we will be perfect on our coordination or attention to equally address both sides of the PvMP conflict in the future, because I cannot predict with accuracy how any of that will occur. What I can tell you, is the my role is to understand the scope of all game system changes and wrap my head around what that means for all aspects of the game. In fact, just writing that line makes me think that I need to write a more complete introduction to the forums to explain what it is I'm "responsible" for executing.

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Originally Posted by subadar

well the plus side to all this is we can assume that the plans are NOT to shut down pvmp ?

good to see you back !

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It is at a crossroads, as I stated in the OP. Where it goes from here is a matter of data and debate.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

Answering you, though many have commented on this one. I should have been more clear in my explanation.

When the camps move back to their old locations the functionality they once had will return. Fall back points that are defensive in nature with an escape route once they are overrun.

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This is great news and something I have asked for numerous times since they were changed and I am so glad that you agree with us that played back then and these forward camps were integral for not only forming RvR action but also for those who small grp or solo out of core hours because they are a focal that since has been pushed to either GV or Grams camping.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

DoF changes might require a removal of access for a time. However, the goal here is to make the main advancement path for PvMP to funnel through DoF until a later time.

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I still don't understand this - it is like you are trying to get us pvp's to pve to try and gain some advantage. I don't speak for all but most pvp players want to fight each other and not dispersing the troops across (or under) the map because that isn't why I go to the moors. Yes, there has been a few fine battles in DoF over the years but they are few and far between. They were just for bored pvp'rs to do something when quiet.

If you really want to do something special in the DoF - make it an instanced arena that is capture the flag or something. Open up more areas depending on the group sizes. No 1v1 but start at 3v3 6v6 12v12 possibly 24v24. With 12v12 and 24v24 you could open up whole DoF and reduce areas as the size is smaller.

That would be a good use for the DoF - IMHO

Here is my 2 cent
Outposts. currently, they are way too easy to capture on freep side. Basically, Any class can do it under a minute. my idea is to make them harder to capture.
The first outpost u may solo, the second takes maybe a small fellowship, the third full fellowship, and if u want to control all 4 then the last outpost needs a raid to capture.
Also, remove patrolling NPC- around outposts.

NPC-s make them count, currently, they are just lag generators. there was a time when people feared NPC-s. maybe fewer NPC-s and they hit like a truck.

Quests and quest items. IDK what to do with 300 Captain-General's symbols? Maybe people can hand in all of them in a bulk? Quest cooldown lower maybe 6 hours, idk. all have bags full of that ####.

DoF. fewer NPC-s, maybe add something useful to small named bosses there (loot or buff). maybe add shortcuts to keeps also. For example from TA people get to near Gaergoth the Unbound, From TR to drake, and from lug to tree boss. would create some nice strategic pathways for fight and ambushing. also then maybe it will feel like part of the map.

..... to be continued

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

It is at a crossroads, as I stated in the OP. Where it goes from here is a matter of data and debate.

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It feels good to be at a crossroads, Orion. And wb to LOTRO and specifically to the moors. Map changes, adding in objectives, these are the sorts of things the moors has needed for years. I don't begrudge the players that will advocate for a pure pvp environment absent of any pve, you will hear a lot of feedback to that effect. But what pvmp needs most is growth. It needs to expand again beyond Evernight and Arkenstone. It needs to take up its position again as the ultimate endgame.. the thing you go do AFTER you've got the endgame instances on farm. It should be the thing you turn to when your main is in a good place and you have had all you can stand of alts, but you don't want to turn to a different game. Its the ultimate repeatable content and it shouldn't have gate after gate after gate to climb before you can participate and then be expected to do so for little to no tangible reward.

Some notes:

1) EC and OC moving - Perfect. Badly needed.

2) The DOF - Having rewards come from there and requiring us to fight to get to the DOF is on point. However, OP's are very easily flipped and are done so usually unopposed. If the goal is to re-center PVMP around the Keep game, you will be pulling fighters away from conflict by sending them to flip OP's over and over. Back in the day we fought for Keep control to open the delving. That might be better.

3) Keep defenses - Great, again badly needed. Make NPC's apply slows on the first floors.

4) Healing modifiers - I see your point here. But incoming healing affects different classes differently (I'm sure you know) so a modifier should probably be applied differently by class. But this brings up a greater point:

4a) Balance - Balance is so subjective, that no matter what anyone at SSG does to affect it, it'll never be successful. And it's fleeting too, as usually what happens is, as soon as balance is achieved, there's a pve update that invalidates it. The great balance modifier are numbers. As long as the side has the ability to counter balance issues through numbers, the moors will stay active. The only true way to gauge balance is by viewing the time spent at GV and Grams. If the action in the moors is too often centered around one of these areas, you have a major balance issue that needs to be addressed, especially when players are grouped up at these places.

Two requests:

A) Auto flips - If we're going to fight over objectives, we cant have our efforts invalidated by the keep flipping unopposed to the opposite side the minute we ride away. The Auto Flip mechanic needs to be abanonded. It has a legit reason to exist, but its upside doesn't outweigh its downside.

B) It's time for more ranks. If we're going to get some work done on the moors, lets add some ranks to entice your most devoted PVP'ers to return to chase the carrot again. Maybe just start with a R 16 and see how interested people are and eventually go to 20.

Again, welcome back, good luck, see you out there!

Three requests actually:

C - Mitigate the grind associated with participating. Make audacity - if we have to keep it - fully granted as a passive to both sides AND start all creeps out at R5, with commensurate skills, traits and give them the full slate of crude maps. The catch-22 of having to fight to be effective, but not being able to fight (get in groups) because your not effective, needs to be addressed.

Freeps should have a Pvmp only equipment panel and no crossover with Pve equipment, auto-switching to the Pvmp panel as soon as you enter the Ettenmoors.

Cheers :)

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

It is at a crossroads, as I stated in the OP. Where it goes from here is a matter of data and debate.

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greetings and welcome back. As a 10 year player i cannot comment prior to this. However, maybe you could feed-in the more consensual changes initially and gain greater insight/feedback as you progress so as to tweak the 'roadmap'.
Also I read your point on 'incoming healing debuff' with interest. Maybe this could be applied through the outpost system , but in opposition to mastery gains. more outposts = more damage but less inc healing and vice-versa. This need not be a linear progression as it currently either.
In addition to your proposed schedule of work , perhaps you could ponder a tweak to the 'Arena' to allow 1. a safe space for each side 2. a controlled number of entrants from say 1-6 to contest a fight with a time limit of perhaps 5 min...maybe longer , viewable by non participants on the ramparts and even granting specific or enhanced rewards. With daily locks of course.

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Originally Posted by Spilo

Most PvPers currently in game have no idea how to play their class to even a base means, aren't interested in fair/fun fights, and are solely focused on...zerging for points.

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I agree completely with this and think this explains the current state of the PvMP more than anything else.

I know it's an unpopular opinion, but I think PvMP is pretty balanced now, and certainly more balanced now than it has been in the last few years. And I write this as someone who has spent the majority of his time on creepside since the update that many creeps are complaining about. My view of this is based on the fact that I normally play with a 6-man group of creeps that routinely wipes freep groups much larger than our own. And even when conditions require us to expand the group, it is normally restrained to twelve players, and we still normally take on double our numbers with success. I've not been able to do this in past updates (as consistently as I do now) when I've played the weaker side during times of unbalance.

The main way to enhance pvp is going to require solutions within the community. Players need to be willing to play the weaker side sometimes to help with the action and to not mindlessly expand their group size. Players don't like to be zerged over and over, and this mindless zerging is what causes players on the weaker side to log, which leaves the large groups without any one to play against.

I'm not saying there aren't things that SSG could do to enhance PvMP on the technical side of things. But, frankly, lag is the number one area they should tackle and consider a priority far above moves to tinker with balance.

And whatever changes are proposed, please test them thoroughly and give ample time for feedback, and consider having safeguards to allow for roll-backs in case the update goes sour. Too often bad changes have been made and put PvMP in a worse state than before, when a simple reversion to settings before the update would've welcomed by the majority.

Honesty, I don't see a spike in PvMP interest from the entire population and new players just by making a few tweaks.

If PvMP gets any serious attention from the playerbase after being half-dead for 9 years it is going to come after a big revamp and some advertising.


Maybe a few band-aids will make the current PvMP active players happy (which may be a lower population than current 32bit client players), but it is not going to increase the interest from many other players that are not actively playing PvMP already.

Changing some mechanics for people that are not even into PvMP and can't tell the difference between balance vs unbalance is not going to attract more people into it.


Sure, you can fix some bugs and locations but that's mainly useful for players that are currently playing PvMP, which is a minority of players. But that won't bring fresh and new people into it.

Bold actions should be there in the first place because any MMO has PvP and it had been proved to work in any of those popular games, and a big PvP revamp is needed in Lotro to attract new audiences.

But we can't put feathers on a dog and call it a chicken.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

Camp Relocation – Orc and Elf

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This change would be really nice, but only if it also causes fights to focus on TA again (which it will not do because of keeps switching sides randomly/automatically)

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

The Delving of Frór

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I don't think this has any desirable effects if i'm being honest, maybe i'm wrong. Delving bosses giving Infamy/renown gain bonuses are enough of an incentive for fighting.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

Keep and Tower Revision

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Makes sense & sounds good.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

Healing Modifiers

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I don't think this is a problem. Being forced to focus target/time burst together in group play is more desirable than a quick death/massacre (to me at least). The problem is too many healers, not healing being too strong from my experience.

Orion just a quick question to follow up on my prior comment. Can we expect to see PvMP on the legendary servers as part of the updates you plan to work on?

There is a significant amount of demand for PvMP on Treebeard, which is also objectively the server that needs repeatable content the most desperately (we haven't had a single bit of PvE content that requires more than 3 people since the server launched).

Thank you!

yet another thing, any given time when there is some people playing there is strange number of AFK R0 reavers just front on trainer. some can stay there most of day.... this is kind surprising....

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

Let’s Discuss Monster Play

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@SSG_Orion:
Some things are easier than other things, fixing lag is a major issue but I won't go into that here, besides its a game-wide issue and not specifically PVMP related.

The easy things that will make a step into the right direction as far as balance goes:

- Finish the plans Fantus made and started, specifically the Audacity cap on both sides.
- Remove the enhanced range traceries in the Moors, it's kinda silly to make one side have longer range than the other side.
- When freepside gets some buff in pve due new shinies, give creepside a little something to keep the up. Not doing so only brings more unbalance. Even worse, when creepside finally does get an upgrade, freepside is shocked by that huge buff, retreats to GV and goes into heavy QQ mode. If buffs come gradually on each side nobody would be shocked or suprised.
- Totally remove bonus and buffs by outposts and delving of Fror, it serves nothing but making the winning side stronger.

The hardest part will be making players come to fight for the enjoyment of fighting in pvp, as of now a big majority only comes to the moors to farm the other side and lost interest in the fun of the fight, many even lost the will and the skill to go to battle unless its easy win. After years of easy-mode freepside got so used to that it will probably take a year or more.

I'd love to see replacing OC and EC but thats fine-tuning and right now its more important to focus at the big picture.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

The Delving of Frór

[........] The loot within diminished in value and while updated somewhat has lost some relevance. Additionally, there are no secondary end game reasons to enter the Delving.

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Well there's the Infamy/Renown buffs for taking down the bosses. It's pretty much the only reason anyone goes in there. Speaking for myself, I'd rather not. I much preferred the old days when the battle centred primarily around TA - and of course old OC/EC. Hearing they might return is the greatest news I've heard in a long while. Been campaigning for that for years! If it's confirmed, am I right in assuming the GY's (rezz circles) will also be returning to their former positions?

Concerning DoF, my suggestion, just for starters, would be to relocate the buffs back to the Moors battlefield – mainly to TA, to further incentivize the fight in that central and key location.

**40%** Infamy/Renown gain for holding TA
**15%** each for TR and Lug
**10%** each for LC and Isen
**2.5%** for each Outpost (remove the needless Mastery buff from these)

That means one side could potentially reach a flat, maximum buff of 100%, which is plenty.

Also really digging the other suggestions!

Great to have you back Orion.

Dare we hope??

Once you're done tinkering, the new revamped PVP program needs advertising. Perhaps a free week (or weekend) of Moors access? I am aware this could cause lag problems and give people a bad first impression though. Perhaps you could re-enable Osgiliath and send all the free players there to pound on each other, leaving the Moors for paying players. Or since you can pay MC for 6 hours of Moors access, perhaps every account could get a free token that can be exchanged for 6 hours Moors access that can be cashed in whenever you like, so not everyone swarms in at the same time.

Also unlock all monster classes for that free trial period to get people hooked and not just end up with a mountain of freeps with only a few freavers in sight. Maybe even unlock them permanently for free... the anniversary festival has brought in a lot of new people by giving away a bunch of free stuff. Could work for the Moors too. Make it a special event. Have some exclusive bonus (cosmetic pet, title, frame) for getting up to rank 1 during the free trial. Make some PVP-themed housing items. Bring back the chicken run to get "The Fool" again. Something.