Printable View
I would like to inquire what three things that the hunter dev thinks that hunters need most/ would like to see.
I would also like to inquire what the hunter dev thinks are the the three things that the hunter community needs the most/ wants the most.
This will help us get an idea of what he is thinking and what we can focus out ideas on.
I want to have the option of using my hunter to "shape terrain". Think of a real military's combat engineer.
To do that I want a lot more freedom to place traps. Of course I trade that freedom for something else, but the basic mechanism is already there, there is a "trapper of foes" line.
I would need some way to lower cooldown, at least out of combat, so that I can place several traps before the circus begins. I also don't see why the lifetime of an unsprung trap is so short.
The way I see it traps are a pretty regular form of CC and I don't see why all other forms of CC come with normal cooldowns but traps are effectively limited to one at a time, if that.
Greetings Kelsan, Quite a task ahead of you, but long overdue.
1) Survivability - Adjust Medium Armour mitigations, scale skills and traits, DF becomes sprint like Make Haste, or camo for 10-15 seconds. DF is on a 30 minute CD, wargs have 2 escape (or Win) skills on 3 minute CD's. CotH needs a boost in moral and a slow immunity.
2) Mobility - Fix the animation roots, more skills on the move.
3) Stealth & Tracking - Moors tracking is sooooo frustrating. Fix tracked target, targeting lag. It takes way too long once the red dot on the mini map appears, to be able to target it for attacking. I can track wargs or most other creeps at close range, and by the time I am able to target them they are out of 40 meter range. Stealth level needs a big boost, while stealthed, Creeps can easily see us. If we are solo and out in the open, we are dead meat.
Good luck with the task at hand, and please communicate with us. Thank you for your time.
Here's one for you Devilled, not sure if it's been mention before in this thread, give us back the trait that reset pen shot on critical cos y'know, to directly quote a former hunter dev "every hunter traited it so we are removing it from the game" which makes no sense to anyone who's ever played a hunter. Compare this to the LM dev who stated "because every LM traits sword and staff we're going to make it a passive ability"
Let's have some consistency shall we? Left hand, right hand, communications ftw.
There never was such a trait afaik.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bhorn_EU
Hunters had a trait that reduced Penetrating Shot and Blood Arrow Focus cost by 1 - and tbh, with the changes that came along with the removal of this trait, I'm not sure how they could put it back in without messing up balance hard.
Having just read the entire thred, here are my two cents:
* Re-read this thread at least 3-4 times and do your homework. Don't take this the wrong way. It's only that there are many, many good suggestions here and only after you have collected them together you can streamline them all and get to the gist of what changes Hunters need. For example, scalling skills, making legendary traits legendary and so on and so forth.
* Learn the story of the Hunter class. The class has changed a lot in the past 5-6 years, and many things have been added or changed, but in the end, almost everything that has been done was only meant to fix this or that very specific problem, without addressing the real underlying issues or the general picture. There used to be some guiding principles for the Hunter class in Shadows of Angmar, but in the past few years they seem to have been forgotten by Devs.
* Play the game. Play Hunter class live from level 1 to 85. Try grouping, soloing, CCing, DPSing. Play with the skills, with the legacies, trait lines, raid. Live the class. Go to the Moors and try soloing, grouping, duelling, tracking, killing and dying. Create a Black Arrow toon, play it and compare it to the Hunter. Don't just read what skills do. Create toons of other classes and compare them to the Hunter. Get the overall feel of the game and find the place of the Hunter in this game. We used to have one. Even two.
which is why they should revert to the old version of the trait and fix penetrating shot to have its old cooldown and give it a better buff rather then just being able to spam it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elrantiri
The biggest travesty of ZCs changes was that they were in an effort to make hunters more "diverse" or whatever. The penetrating shot focus reduction was a trait that was so good every hunter would slot it and forget it. For this to be a reason to remove it was utter stupidity. Now hunters are centered around spamming one skill. Diversity at its best...
Instead of PS "derp", you want a PS+QS derp? Wow, that's really creative.Quote:
Originally Posted by fallenhalo
Focus is finite, it's not like you can spam PS indefintiely. No cooldown on PS has created much more strategic options for Focus management than the old system. In the old system there was never an option to burn all of your Focus. You were always forced to interlace Quick Shot into the rotation. Now if you want burst you can bleed it all, but overall DPS will suffer for any sustained fight as you end up chaining Induction skills to get Focus back and miss a Fleetness or Needful Haste buff.
For optimal sustained DPS you really want Focus resting between 4 and 6 at all times. With a reinforced cooldown on PS you can't control that nearly as well and can easily waste Focus against a 9 cap on crits.
Leave PS cooldown as is.
First a bit of background. I have played my hunter for over 5 years and have experienced the class from every facet of the game so believe me when I tell you I know what I’m talking about. I also would never make a suggestion that would OP the class since I remember what happened to us when Moria came out. Secondly I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for making this thread we really felt that Turbine had forgotten about us.
Let’s first talk about skills
1) HS is weak- it’s supposed to be our best attack but it’s hardly ever worth using. Compare the damage of the HS to that of ISB and you will see why. HS uses more power, has a long induction time, doesn't generate any focus and even with legacy enhancements it does do very much more damage than our ISB. Boost the base damage. Creeps will cry about this but they are wrong, hunters are weak in the moors right now.
2) Hunter's Art is still not worth using in combat. I suggest for STR stance increase the buff to 7.5% outgoing damage last for 25 Sec. For precision stance (Precision stance now generates focus every 3 seconds - lasts for 25 sec - For Endurance stance - Your next Penetrating Shot will great reduce threat in the same manner as distracting shot. Hunter’s need another threat dump. Put hunter’s art on a 1 min 30sec cool down to balance the upgrade.
3) Merciful shot needs some serious enhancements. 6 focus is too steep a cost for this attack, reduce the focus cost to 4 focus otherwise it’s not worth using at all.
4) Press onward needs to be insta cast - This should be a no brainer. It’s a legendary trait and it should be legendary - currently its meh and it’s going to be even worse in U10. The heal is not all that great so it’s not unbalancing at all and it is rarely used by hunter’s in combat outside of soloing atm.
5) Improved Strength of earth: Needs a buff - decrease channel duration to 3 seconds - triple the amount of base moral and power for every tick. - Earth born should now increase focus by 2 every 1 sec. Increase cool down to 2 minutes to balance it.
6) Improved fleetness is fine the way it is, however, the normal version is plain useless. I'd suggest giving normal fleetness everything that we have under improved fleetness. Put fleetness on a 2 min cool down and have the Blue line capstone decrease cool down to 30 secs the way it is now.
7) Needful haste is fine imo, however, alot of people are asking for shorter induction on quick shot. This would be unbalancing if we could do it all the time so I suggest that Needful haste also apply the effect of a .2 sec reduction in QS induction.
8) Despite what people say I think burn hot is fine the way it is. Let’s no go crazy. The only thing I would change is allow this skill to be used on the run.
Ok now let’s discuss the trait lines.
IMO the yellow line is a mess. Since hunter can't even use their CC on most boss mobs this line needs to have a greater purpose for the hunter class. I'd recommend that the yellow be more of a group support line then just a cc line.
Suggestions to line bonuses
2 equipped: your traps may now be used in combat
3 equipped: Keep rain of thorns resistance, remove trap inductions benefit and add the effect (Use of Swift bow now applies a 5 sec stackable debuff to mob (-10 % to target’s tactical and physical mitigation)
4 equipped: (-2% to targets tactical and physical mitigation for every trapper of foes trait). Purge poison effect should remain
5 equipped: Yellow capstone should apply an additional effect to distracting shot: -10% target miss chance (stackable with light oil).
Skills:
Combat traps now should be -30sec trap cool downs and -50% skill inductions
Heightened senses should be in the blue line -the blue line is after all the "huntsman line" it makes much more sense for it to be there. Rapid recovery should be moved from the blue line to the yellow line since the primary reason for taking it is to reduce cool downs for dazzling blow.
Rapid recovery should also apply the effect of -5 sec cool down for rain of thorns.
Spring loaded traps - should apply the effect regardless if the target mob was actually trapped - useable on boss mobs
Heart of the bard is useless - I suggest adding the effect: HS now applies the effect -10% attack duration to fellowship for 15sec.
The red and blue lines are mostly ok but here are a few changes I'd like to see.
Red:
Fast draw should move to blue line since the blue line is focused on induction reductions. It should also be buffed to -.3 sec induction reduction for swift bow and add .1 induction reduction for QS. Strong draw should move from Blue line to red line.
True shot should now give -15% AP.
Hail of arrows should give +5% crit chance and not a ratings boost since most high end hunter will be near the crit cap.
Shot through the heart is just awful and should be changed to a +20% increase to HS damage. Remember that HS in on a long cool down. – not unbalancing
Blue line:
With the changes already mentioned above nothing else needs to be done.
Now lets Legacies:
Quick shot critical increase should be a % not a rating otherwise it doesn't add any benefits for those at the crit cap.
Focus bow and induction power cost reductions should be combined into 1 - no other class has theirs split
Threat down legs should be a percentage. What do these really do anyway? Also threat needs to be fixed – Not really just a hunter issue so I won’t go into it but it’s part of the problem with the class
Survivability – This is more of a problem with Medium armor classes and with the new changes to will Medium armor classes will probably be the least survivable. Again not just a hunter issue so I won’t go into here.
Thanks again for taking the time to start this threat. Really
Amen to this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldin
I don't want to be OP because the class is OP I want to be OP because I know have to Max the hunter potentional.
Excellent informative and extensive content in this thread. I hope the Dev actually takes the time to read some of it... :)
I think Turbine would have the attention of the community more if it attributed changes in updates, even if only the favorable ones to show what source they got it from and by what players to at least demonstrate to us they take our suggestions seriously. Feel free anyone to correct me if I'm wrong but I often feel like the forum community of lotro is based of hope, hope of a better and brighter future that will never be - like a zombie world-end video where its all you have.
Take the moors for example. Still SOA items to buy at the barter people after half a decade. Still can't use buttons because of lag. Our racial skills like man-heal haven't been properly scaled in half a decade as well. I feel like cry of the hunter was our food for the next 2 years.
But... here we all are, still here lol.
No doubt and he will probably draw a similar conclusion that I have, watching a parade of idiots gets boring very fast.Quote:
Originally Posted by YesMaam
Of course everyone read what the dev requested, top 3 things. In typical idiot form more then half didnt actually fulfill the request. They are probably the same genius's who whined for years the dev never came to the hunter forums.Quote:
What I’d like to get from you all are the top 3 things you’d most like to see changed about the Hunter.
well SOMEone changed his tone really dramatically really fast. In typical Thorgrum style none the less. This isn't the first time :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Thorgrum
Of course, you do realize that you WERE one of those geniuses about a month or so ago.... not that you will admit it now.
the fact is that Hunter cannot be fixed in 3 changes..... and im sure many hunters want to be ABSOLUTELY clear about that. If people didn't list only 3 things, im sure any caring and competent dev would take the pathetically small amount of time to read the post as part of their job duties to get a better understanding of what Hunters need.
of course everyone should list their top 3..... but that does not mean that that is the ONLY thing they should post.
here are the top 3 things I believe will help take the hunter a long way to being a better class.
1. Change agile rejoiner to be a ranged skill that procs off of evade. Parry is our lowest avoidance and we are a ranged dps class making agile rejoiner useless in group settings. The heal strength is good but it can't be used at range and that is where we live in groups.
2. Combine all legacies that are focus or induction together. The power cost and crit multipliers take up 4 of 6 legacies on our bows.
3. Improved focus generation , right now many skills are not used because of their focus cost. For example merciful shot, we are focus starved and can't afford to blow 6 focus except on a solo enemy that we know won't live through a merciful shot. So I never use merciful shot anymore. Before ROI I used it all the time because I knew I could easily recover from the lost focus.
Basically the issues I see with hunter are first and foremost survivability. Time and time again when I do use my hunter the biggest issue I face in groups is taking damage and being a burden to the healer due to the inability to recover morale without stopping dps for several seconds and even that is a once a few minute skill that heals for very little. Only really useful for emergencies not for the steady damage we take in some situations. The other big issue is maintaining focus. Pretty much the lack of good focus generation without traiting 5 blue , wearing a specific armour bonus, and maintain fleetness up at all times is just a ridiculous drag on dps. As it stands for maximum dps there is little choice in how you build your char and use it. As well there is a long checklist of skills/buffs needed to be run before we can start a fight and be our best.
Whole post is good, but thought I'd like to highlight this particular suggestion. THAT. We need that!Quote:
Originally Posted by gelleg
Really out all the things that are broken you feel this should be the top priority?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kajil
Ok so I guess I didn't follow OP's directions so here are my top three things I'd like to see changed in no particular order.
1) Yellow line revamped to be more the just a CC line but include group support options that add more value to a fellowship outside of DPS which is easily replaceable.
2) Better and more transparent Aggro Management tools. Our threat down legacies, distracting shot and our Threat book should be a -% reduction in overall threat. We should have at least one more threat dumping ability.
3) This one is really tough because there are so many broken skills and class traits that should be fixed and deserve attention. For that reason I won’t address them and move on to the forth thing I'd like to see which is increased survivability for Hunters.
Well during the whole RoI we asked and cried for this, i really hope this time it's for real...
I'll highlight the 3 exact details i'd like most while being relatively simple from the 3 below points:
1B bow of the righteous heals also morale
1C press onward inductionless with 30-40% restore
2A unified tiered wound mechanic to be tied to red stance
i know it's a lot about heals but without a big complex work on our avoidances mechanics, or setting a better rating to % curve for medium armor wearers' mitigations (lotro, where a light armor wearer reaches better dmg reduction than a medium armor wearer with less effort, now featuring tactical mitigation from will...) i don't see any other solutions
1. Legendary traits: they're not that legendary and you know it!
A. Bard's Arrow it's good enough but if we need a fear we need it fast regardless if we are traiting for -% inductions, set induction to 1 second, it already has a 30 seconds cooldown, definetely not op
B. Bow of the righteous heals for a percentage of the damage dealt (5-10%, much less than cappy's revealing mark) or a percentage of max morale in addition to the actual power restore
C. Press onward inductionless, restores 30-40% power and morale
D. Rain of thorns: lower focus cost and cooldown or add some useful debuff after breaking the root
E. Cool Burn in addition to the other bonuses to Burn Hot have it either give 9 focus or 1 focus every 2 seconds for 20 seconds (5 in red line generates much less focus than blue, but we still need it for our skills and maybe something else, see 2.)
2. Some new mechanics to be tied to red line:
A. Tiered unified wound (working like a writ), more skills/traits to work with it, some to remove and deal bonus damage(blood arrow, mercy shot), some to increase damage (heartseeker does more damage for each tier of wound)
B. Venom-like mechanic at 5-red: +% damage to induction skills and wound dot for each unused point of focus
Those changes could make viable a rotation that's not based on derp spam penetrating shot whenever u have focus
3. Look at melee, choose 1 of the following:
a) REMOVE THE DUAL WEILDING PENALTY THAT SETS OUR MELEE SKILLS DAMAGE TO 80% MAIN HAND-60% OFF-HAND AND MAKE IT 100%-100%
(i hope it's clear enough, just look at main-hand damage stated on melee skills tooltip with no off-hand and then with an off-hand equipped)
b) Totally drop our melee LI along with all the melee legacies and make a legendary book/quiver rebalancing legacies with the bow and adding new useful ones
Final point: Trapper of foes needs a complete rework, it really lacks coherency and purpose under the current environment (both pve and pvmp) and it's not something we can do in 3 points... maybe go to only one trait for traps, put in useful debuffs on traits and trait-line bonus, reallocate threat reduction and power cost reduction in % to legendary items while joining induction and focus legacies together, but that's just the beginning
3 things (besides more Hunter players who can count and don't give an endless list?)
1) Bring back the Increased Threat and Power Cost for the Red Line so people have to think about their skill usage.
2) Make skills more effective at long range and reduce damage at close range, force Hunter's to consider their positioning more.
3) Ranged Heal skill that restore's the morale of Target's Target (never self) to emulate the reassuring presence of a trained archer backing you up in the fight.
I'm not sure about this. This seems like it would decrease our survivability significantly, since our biggest hits are with our bow. With three melee mobs in your face, I think you'd regret having reduced damage at close range.Quote:
Originally Posted by Araharn
Then many hunters well just say F it and go blue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Araharn
No. Not only does it not makes any since to gain damage for at longer range, it would put hunters in a bad spot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Araharn
More like put an efficient range on each skill, in "x" range "x" skill can be better performed in terms of damage/crit/dev.
Lorebreaking, hella not real, impossible, and what if we miss?Quote:
Originally Posted by Araharn
Lionheart: Then many hunters well just say F it and go blue.
Is this any different to when they removed it and most hunters switched to full red? Maybe put one of them back then...
Lionheart: Lorebreaking, hella not real, impossible, and what if we miss?
Not Lorebreaking at all, remember that we are not talking about healing hitpoints, we are talking about raising Morale. I'm pretty sure the snowed under Guardian with several mobs in their face would be happy to suddenly see arrows flying into one of them easing the pressure. Maybe if we miss it should reduce our morale because we are putting up such a poor performance?
Like your suggestion to fix 2 though.
Slflew: I'm not sure about this. This seems like it would decrease our survivability significantly, since our biggest hits are with our bow. With three melee mobs in your face, I think you'd regret having reduced damage at close range.
Isn't this what our stuns and slows are for (not to mention Rain of Thorns), just trying to inject some realism back into Hunters, even Legolas resorts to his knives from time to time.
If that's the only purpose to bring it back, it is pointless. Unless you count as an achievement that some people are still perpetuating "wisdom" about Hunters who just need to get out of S:S to avoid aggro problems. True story, this very forum. That's the only thing people learnt en masse: "get out of S:S".Quote:
Originally Posted by Araharn
If another purpose is to re-create tanking role, we don't need that for single target, not with "IF/derpshot burst specials". If you want it for the purpose of tanking several mobs via AoE, then I don't think many raids have 4 healers available so Hunters can relive the days when they could reliably tank - multiple mobs still belonging in comedy department btw.
Bind it to specific line so it is still a choice and stacking other advantages is not possible. Not sure if it would be balanced for groups even with those conditions though (Moors?). Also, Distributed Damage...Quote:
Originally Posted by Araharn
I actually like the way a hunter works now, But maybe some things that can change are (might be more then 3 I is sorry):
1.) Crossbow vs. bow. These are very different weapons believe it or not and the actually real life crossbows are slow to reload machines. So having skills and traits related to both would be nice. Maybe change the balance so x bows hit way harder but bows are way way faster. For example inductions almost nothing for bow double for xbows, this being balanced by damage.
2.)I hate the trap thing it breaks the flow of the game slowing it down. removing the set up time and adding a cute puppy would be great. and that leads to number 3
3.) a hunter partner: a dog is a hunters best friend in rl as well as in any game. Flushing game, retrieving and stopping a mob in its tracks. Maybe not a pet like the LM but a dog that is based around a skill. Maybe have a dog trail at your heel and only do things when the hunter commands. No morale or power just a stun or root. skill ideas: flush: command dog to attract mobs to it so the hunter can attack. Distract: mobs too close, hounds being loud and biting butts are hard to ignore. Bite: A dog attacks the weak spot of a mob stopping it in its tracks, damage causes the mob to focus on you again.
4.) tracking revamp. its awkward to track mobs. I like that you can, but I would like a better way to do it. Instead of an arrow like the 3 others on your mini map how about tracks on the ground.
5.) Relates to the xbow/bow one. Hunters are squishy but if you are using a big heavy weapon like an xbow you want to use a heavy armour. big hits, slow weapon, heavy armour. Trait for x box wear heavy armour use might and agl. Trait for bow wear medium armour use agl and vit.
6.) A better place to holster the crossbow............Unless you can show in real life a holster for an xbow that is slung arcoss the back. Then make one that is as big as the ones in game and sling them across you back.
7. desprate flight should be for every class............. so something else for a hunter like dodgeing back out of danger or a hide in the shadows like a thief or a melee aoe root so you can get away.
thats it for now.
Personally I quite like these suggestions esp. the latter re. effects with unused focus. There are some suggestions re. ranged corruption removals too, I like the idea of tying the corruption removal to PS but only when used with full focus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilladh
Anyone have any thoughts on that? MS needs something changing with it anyhow, could tweak up the damage for that keep the half morale gate and put ranegd corruption on PS as above.