Greetings! Let's talk Revamp!

**Legonist** · Feb 28 2013, 04:30 PM

I would like to inquire what three things that the hunter dev thinks that hunters need most/ would like to see.

I would also like to inquire what the hunter dev thinks are the the three things that the hunter community needs the most/ wants the most.

This will help us get an idea of what he is thinking and what we can focus out ideas on.

**Darmokk** · Feb 28 2013, 04:51 PM

I want to have the option of using my hunter to "shape terrain". Think of a real military's combat engineer.

To do that I want a lot more freedom to place traps. Of course I trade that freedom for something else, but the basic mechanism is already there, there is a "trapper of foes" line.

I would need some way to lower cooldown, at least out of combat, so that I can place several traps before the circus begins. I also don't see why the lifetime of an unsprung trap is so short.

The way I see it traps are a pretty regular form of CC and I don't see why all other forms of CC come with normal cooldowns but traps are effectively limited to one at a time, if that.

**Fettamir** · Feb 28 2013, 11:09 PM

Greetings Kelsan, Quite a task ahead of you, but long overdue.

1) Survivability - Adjust Medium Armour mitigations, scale skills and traits, DF becomes sprint like Make Haste, or camo for 10-15 seconds. DF is on a 30 minute CD, wargs have 2 escape (or Win) skills on 3 minute CD's. CotH needs a boost in moral and a slow immunity.

2) Mobility - Fix the animation roots, more skills on the move.

3) Stealth & Tracking - Moors tracking is sooooo frustrating. Fix tracked target, targeting lag. It takes way too long once the red dot on the mini map appears, to be able to target it for attacking. I can track wargs or most other creeps at close range, and by the time I am able to target them they are out of 40 meter range. Stealth level needs a big boost, while stealthed, Creeps can easily see us. If we are solo and out in the open, we are dead meat.

Good luck with the task at hand, and please communicate with us. Thank you for your time.

**Bhorn_EU** · Mar 01 2013, 09:06 AM

Here's one for you Devilled, not sure if it's been mention before in this thread, give us back the trait that reset pen shot on critical cos y'know, to directly quote a former hunter dev "every hunter traited it so we are removing it from the game" which makes no sense to anyone who's ever played a hunter. Compare this to the LM dev who stated "because every LM traits sword and staff we're going to make it a passive ability"

Let's have some consistency shall we? Left hand, right hand, communications ftw.

**Elrantiri** · Mar 01 2013, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by Bhorn_EU

Here's one for you Devilled, not sure if it's been mention before in this thread, give us back the trait that reset pen shot on critical cos y'know, to directly quote a former hunter dev "every hunter traited it so we are removing it from the game" which makes no sense to anyone who's ever played a hunter. Compare this to the LM dev who stated "because every LM traits sword and staff we're going to make it a passive ability"

Let's have some consistency shall we? Left hand, right hand, communications ftw.

There never was such a trait afaik.
Hunters had a trait that reduced Penetrating Shot and Blood Arrow Focus cost by 1 - and tbh, with the changes that came along with the removal of this trait, I'm not sure how they could put it back in without messing up balance hard.

**Lasagabaster** · Mar 01 2013, 11:53 AM

Having just read the entire thred, here are my two cents:

* Re-read this thread at least 3-4 times and do your homework. Don't take this the wrong way. It's only that there are many, many good suggestions here and only after you have collected them together you can streamline them all and get to the gist of what changes Hunters need. For example, scalling skills, making legendary traits legendary and so on and so forth.

* Learn the story of the Hunter class. The class has changed a lot in the past 5-6 years, and many things have been added or changed, but in the end, almost everything that has been done was only meant to fix this or that very specific problem, without addressing the real underlying issues or the general picture. There used to be some guiding principles for the Hunter class in Shadows of Angmar, but in the past few years they seem to have been forgotten by Devs.

* Play the game. Play Hunter class live from level 1 to 85. Try grouping, soloing, CCing, DPSing. Play with the skills, with the legacies, trait lines, raid. Live the class. Go to the Moors and try soloing, grouping, duelling, tracking, killing and dying. Create a Black Arrow toon, play it and compare it to the Hunter. Don't just read what skills do. Create toons of other classes and compare them to the Hunter. Get the overall feel of the game and find the place of the Hunter in this game. We used to have one. Even two.

**fallenhalo** · Mar 02 2013, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

There never was such a trait afaik.
Hunters had a trait that reduced Penetrating Shot and Blood Arrow Focus cost by 1 - and tbh, with the changes that came along with the removal of this trait, I'm not sure how they could put it back in without messing up balance hard.

which is why they should revert to the old version of the trait and fix penetrating shot to have its old cooldown and give it a better buff rather then just being able to spam it.

The biggest travesty of ZCs changes was that they were in an effort to make hunters more "diverse" or whatever. The penetrating shot focus reduction was a trait that was so good every hunter would slot it and forget it. For this to be a reason to remove it was utter stupidity. Now hunters are centered around spamming one skill. Diversity at its best...

**bastiat1** · Mar 02 2013, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by fallenhalo

which is why they should revert to the old version of the trait and fix penetrating shot to have its old cooldown and give it a better buff rather then just being able to spam it.

Instead of PS "derp", you want a PS+QS derp? Wow, that's really creative.

Focus is finite, it's not like you can spam PS indefintiely. No cooldown on PS has created much more strategic options for Focus management than the old system. In the old system there was never an option to burn all of your Focus. You were always forced to interlace Quick Shot into the rotation. Now if you want burst you can bleed it all, but overall DPS will suffer for any sustained fight as you end up chaining Induction skills to get Focus back and miss a Fleetness or Needful Haste buff.

For optimal sustained DPS you really want Focus resting between 4 and 6 at all times. With a reinforced cooldown on PS you can't control that nearly as well and can easily waste Focus against a 9 cap on crits.

Leave PS cooldown as is.

**Waylen** · Mar 02 2013, 02:19 PM

First a bit of background. I have played my hunter for over 5 years and have experienced the class from every facet of the game so believe me when I tell you I know what I’m talking about. I also would never make a suggestion that would OP the class since I remember what happened to us when Moria came out. Secondly I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for making this thread we really felt that Turbine had forgotten about us.

Let’s first talk about skills
1) HS is weak- it’s supposed to be our best attack but it’s hardly ever worth using. Compare the damage of the HS to that of ISB and you will see why. HS uses more power, has a long induction time, doesn't generate any focus and even with legacy enhancements it does do very much more damage than our ISB. Boost the base damage. Creeps will cry about this but they are wrong, hunters are weak in the moors right now.

2) Hunter's Art is still not worth using in combat. I suggest for STR stance increase the buff to 7.5% outgoing damage last for 25 Sec. For precision stance (Precision stance now generates focus every 3 seconds - lasts for 25 sec - For Endurance stance - Your next Penetrating Shot will great reduce threat in the same manner as distracting shot. Hunter’s need another threat dump. Put hunter’s art on a 1 min 30sec cool down to balance the upgrade.

3) Merciful shot needs some serious enhancements. 6 focus is too steep a cost for this attack, reduce the focus cost to 4 focus otherwise it’s not worth using at all.

4) Press onward needs to be insta cast - This should be a no brainer. It’s a legendary trait and it should be legendary - currently its meh and it’s going to be even worse in U10. The heal is not all that great so it’s not unbalancing at all and it is rarely used by hunter’s in combat outside of soloing atm.

5) Improved Strength of earth: Needs a buff - decrease channel duration to 3 seconds - triple the amount of base moral and power for every tick. - Earth born should now increase focus by 2 every 1 sec. Increase cool down to 2 minutes to balance it.

6) Improved fleetness is fine the way it is, however, the normal version is plain useless. I'd suggest giving normal fleetness everything that we have under improved fleetness. Put fleetness on a 2 min cool down and have the Blue line capstone decrease cool down to 30 secs the way it is now.

7) Needful haste is fine imo, however, alot of people are asking for shorter induction on quick shot. This would be unbalancing if we could do it all the time so I suggest that Needful haste also apply the effect of a .2 sec reduction in QS induction.

8) Despite what people say I think burn hot is fine the way it is. Let’s no go crazy. The only thing I would change is allow this skill to be used on the run.

Ok now let’s discuss the trait lines.

IMO the yellow line is a mess. Since hunter can't even use their CC on most boss mobs this line needs to have a greater purpose for the hunter class. I'd recommend that the yellow be more of a group support line then just a cc line.
Suggestions to line bonuses

2 equipped: your traps may now be used in combat

3 equipped: Keep rain of thorns resistance, remove trap inductions benefit and add the effect (Use of Swift bow now applies a 5 sec stackable debuff to mob (-10 % to target’s tactical and physical mitigation)

4 equipped: (-2% to targets tactical and physical mitigation for every trapper of foes trait). Purge poison effect should remain

5 equipped: Yellow capstone should apply an additional effect to distracting shot: -10% target miss chance (stackable with light oil).
Skills:

Combat traps now should be -30sec trap cool downs and -50% skill inductions

Heightened senses should be in the blue line -the blue line is after all the "huntsman line" it makes much more sense for it to be there. Rapid recovery should be moved from the blue line to the yellow line since the primary reason for taking it is to reduce cool downs for dazzling blow.

Rapid recovery should also apply the effect of -5 sec cool down for rain of thorns.

Spring loaded traps - should apply the effect regardless if the target mob was actually trapped - useable on boss mobs

Heart of the bard is useless - I suggest adding the effect: HS now applies the effect -10% attack duration to fellowship for 15sec.
The red and blue lines are mostly ok but here are a few changes I'd like to see.

Red:
Fast draw should move to blue line since the blue line is focused on induction reductions. It should also be buffed to -.3 sec induction reduction for swift bow and add .1 induction reduction for QS. Strong draw should move from Blue line to red line.
True shot should now give -15% AP.
Hail of arrows should give +5% crit chance and not a ratings boost since most high end hunter will be near the crit cap.

Shot through the heart is just awful and should be changed to a +20% increase to HS damage. Remember that HS in on a long cool down. – not unbalancing

Blue line:
With the changes already mentioned above nothing else needs to be done.

Now lets Legacies:
Quick shot critical increase should be a % not a rating otherwise it doesn't add any benefits for those at the crit cap.
Focus bow and induction power cost reductions should be combined into 1 - no other class has theirs split
Threat down legs should be a percentage. What do these really do anyway? Also threat needs to be fixed – Not really just a hunter issue so I won’t go into it but it’s part of the problem with the class

Survivability – This is more of a problem with Medium armor classes and with the new changes to will Medium armor classes will probably be the least survivable. Again not just a hunter issue so I won’t go into here.

Thanks again for taking the time to start this threat. Really

**Waylen** · Mar 02 2013, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by Oldin

Going through this thread this stuck out most to me. Mostly because it is bold and in caps but also because it's 100% right. We want the ability to become the top dps class through work on our rotation not by just giving us a raw dps boost. Make hunters work for their dps, but give us the potential to be top tier at it if we do put that work in.

Amen to this.

I don't want to be OP because the class is OP I want to be OP because I know have to Max the hunter potentional.

**YesMaam** · Mar 02 2013, 06:24 PM

Excellent informative and extensive content in this thread. I hope the Dev actually takes the time to read some of it...

I think Turbine would have the attention of the community more if it attributed changes in updates, even if only the favorable ones to show what source they got it from and by what players to at least demonstrate to us they take our suggestions seriously. Feel free anyone to correct me if I'm wrong but I often feel like the forum community of lotro is based of hope, hope of a better and brighter future that will never be - like a zombie world-end video where its all you have.

Take the moors for example. Still SOA items to buy at the barter people after half a decade. Still can't use buttons because of lag. Our racial skills like man-heal haven't been properly scaled in half a decade as well. I feel like cry of the hunter was our food for the next 2 years.

But... here we all are, still here lol.

**Thorgrum** · Mar 02 2013, 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by YesMaam

I hope the Dev actually takes the time to read some of it...

No doubt and he will probably draw a similar conclusion that I have, watching a parade of idiots gets boring very fast.

What I’d like to get from you all are the top 3 things you’d most like to see changed about the Hunter.

Of course everyone read what the dev requested, top 3 things. In typical idiot form more then half didnt actually fulfill the request. They are probably the same genius's who whined for years the dev never came to the hunter forums.

**Lendas** · Mar 02 2013, 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by Thorgrum

No doubt and he will probably draw a similar conclusion that I have, watching a parade of idiots gets boring very fast.

Of course everyone read what the dev requested, top 3 things. In typical idiot form more then half didnt actually fulfill the request. They are probably the same genius's who whined for years the dev never came to the hunter forums.

well SOMEone changed his tone really dramatically really fast. In typical Thorgrum style none the less. This isn't the first time

Of course, you do realize that you WERE one of those geniuses about a month or so ago.... not that you will admit it now.

the fact is that Hunter cannot be fixed in 3 changes..... and im sure many hunters want to be ABSOLUTELY clear about that. If people didn't list only 3 things, im sure any caring and competent dev would take the pathetically small amount of time to read the post as part of their job duties to get a better understanding of what Hunters need.

of course everyone should list their top 3..... but that does not mean that that is the ONLY thing they should post.

**gelleg** · Mar 02 2013, 07:37 PM

here are the top 3 things I believe will help take the hunter a long way to being a better class.

1. Change agile rejoiner to be a ranged skill that procs off of evade. Parry is our lowest avoidance and we are a ranged dps class making agile rejoiner useless in group settings. The heal strength is good but it can't be used at range and that is where we live in groups.

2. Combine all legacies that are focus or induction together. The power cost and crit multipliers take up 4 of 6 legacies on our bows.

3. Improved focus generation , right now many skills are not used because of their focus cost. For example merciful shot, we are focus starved and can't afford to blow 6 focus except on a solo enemy that we know won't live through a merciful shot. So I never use merciful shot anymore. Before ROI I used it all the time because I knew I could easily recover from the lost focus.

Basically the issues I see with hunter are first and foremost survivability. Time and time again when I do use my hunter the biggest issue I face in groups is taking damage and being a burden to the healer due to the inability to recover morale without stopping dps for several seconds and even that is a once a few minute skill that heals for very little. Only really useful for emergencies not for the steady damage we take in some situations. The other big issue is maintaining focus. Pretty much the lack of good focus generation without traiting 5 blue , wearing a specific armour bonus, and maintain fleetness up at all times is just a ridiculous drag on dps. As it stands for maximum dps there is little choice in how you build your char and use it. As well there is a long checklist of skills/buffs needed to be run before we can start a fight and be our best.

**Kajil** · Mar 02 2013, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by gelleg

1. Change agile rejoiner to be a ranged skill that procs off of evade. Parry is our lowest avoidance and we are a ranged dps class making agile rejoiner useless in group settings. The heal strength is good but it can't be used at range and that is where we live in groups.

Whole post is good, but thought I'd like to highlight this particular suggestion. THAT. We need that!

**Waylen** · Mar 03 2013, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by Kajil

Whole post is good, but thought I'd like to highlight this particular suggestion. THAT. We need that!

Really out all the things that are broken you feel this should be the top priority?

**Waylen** · Mar 03 2013, 11:05 AM

Ok so I guess I didn't follow OP's directions so here are my top three things I'd like to see changed in no particular order.

1) Yellow line revamped to be more the just a CC line but include group support options that add more value to a fellowship outside of DPS which is easily replaceable.

2) Better and more transparent Aggro Management tools. Our threat down legacies, distracting shot and our Threat book should be a -% reduction in overall threat. We should have at least one more threat dumping ability.

3) This one is really tough because there are so many broken skills and class traits that should be fixed and deserve attention. For that reason I won’t address them and move on to the forth thing I'd like to see which is increased survivability for Hunters.

**Cilladh** · Mar 03 2013, 12:41 PM

Well during the whole RoI we asked and cried for this, i really hope this time it's for real...

I'll highlight the 3 exact details i'd like most while being relatively simple from the 3 below points:
1B bow of the righteous heals also morale
1C press onward inductionless with 30-40% restore
2A unified tiered wound mechanic to be tied to red stance
i know it's a lot about heals but without a big complex work on our avoidances mechanics, or setting a better rating to % curve for medium armor wearers' mitigations (lotro, where a light armor wearer reaches better dmg reduction than a medium armor wearer with less effort, now featuring tactical mitigation from will...) i don't see any other solutions

1. Legendary traits: they're not that legendary and you know it!
A. Bard's Arrow it's good enough but if we need a fear we need it fast regardless if we are traiting for -% inductions, set induction to 1 second, it already has a 30 seconds cooldown, definetely not op
B. Bow of the righteous heals for a percentage of the damage dealt (5-10%, much less than cappy's revealing mark) or a percentage of max morale in addition to the actual power restore
C. Press onward inductionless, restores 30-40% power and morale
D. Rain of thorns: lower focus cost and cooldown or add some useful debuff after breaking the root
E. Cool Burn in addition to the other bonuses to Burn Hot have it either give 9 focus or 1 focus every 2 seconds for 20 seconds (5 in red line generates much less focus than blue, but we still need it for our skills and maybe something else, see 2.)

2. Some new mechanics to be tied to red line:
A. Tiered unified wound (working like a writ), more skills/traits to work with it, some to remove and deal bonus damage(blood arrow, mercy shot), some to increase damage (heartseeker does more damage for each tier of wound)
B. Venom-like mechanic at 5-red: +% damage to induction skills and wound dot for each unused point of focus
Those changes could make viable a rotation that's not based on derp spam penetrating shot whenever u have focus

3. Look at melee, choose 1 of the following:
a) REMOVE THE DUAL WEILDING PENALTY THAT SETS OUR MELEE SKILLS DAMAGE TO 80% MAIN HAND-60% OFF-HAND AND MAKE IT 100%-100%
(i hope it's clear enough, just look at main-hand damage stated on melee skills tooltip with no off-hand and then with an off-hand equipped)
b) Totally drop our melee LI along with all the melee legacies and make a legendary book/quiver rebalancing legacies with the bow and adding new useful ones

Final point: Trapper of foes needs a complete rework, it really lacks coherency and purpose under the current environment (both pve and pvmp) and it's not something we can do in 3 points... maybe go to only one trait for traps, put in useful debuffs on traits and trait-line bonus, reallocate threat reduction and power cost reduction in % to legendary items while joining induction and focus legacies together, but that's just the beginning

**Araharn** · Mar 03 2013, 02:03 PM

3 things (besides more Hunter players who can count and don't give an endless list?)

1) Bring back the Increased Threat and Power Cost for the Red Line so people have to think about their skill usage.

2) Make skills more effective at long range and reduce damage at close range, force Hunter's to consider their positioning more.

3) Ranged Heal skill that restore's the morale of Target's Target (never self) to emulate the reassuring presence of a trained archer backing you up in the fight.

**slflew** · Mar 03 2013, 07:08 PM