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Seriously, enough already
I don't understand why every month (it seems), we, the community, are asked for feedback on new systems / revamps / etc. we would like to see.
How many times do you have to ask this question(s), or better yet, how many times do you have to reword the same question(s)???
I say enough already. Either respond / create / update / revamp / tell us never to the answers we post repeatedly everytime these questions are asked, and stop beating the horse... IT'S BEEN DEAD for months, if not years!!!
I'm a lifer. I haven't logged in though since shortly after Mirkwood (no need to at that point). I completed most of what it had to offer pretty shortly after release, and choose not to grind to do the gated material. However, I do check the forums often.
I'm amazed at how many times the devs seem to ask the same thing over and over again. If they haven't figured out by now what the community wants with all their questions, polls, surveys, etc... it's time for them to move along to another company / field / unemployment.
Phew... rant off for now. I'm sure others can agree with me here. Have a great day!
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Re: Seriously, enough already
You do realize that even if the Devs were to decide today to implement changes that were overwhelmingly asked for by the Players in the Community Feedback, that we the Players would not see those changes occur in the game until next year at the very earliest, right?
Changes for the next Update are already set in stone on Bullroarer. Unless something game-breaking is broke, that build is not going to change.
Likewise, the Update after that is probably already locked and going through QA right now on the Closed Test Server.
Even the next Paid Expansion probably already has it's Dev Hours fully allotted to specific features, and is pretty much in the can as far as the Devs are concerned, as we speak.
So, even if they were to decide to take the Community Feedback as cannon, and promptly initiate changes, we won't see them until next year, at the very earliest (assuming there is wiggle-room time available on the Official Road-Map).
This is perhaps why people seem to think Turbine doesn't listen, or why they think their opinions don't matter. Turbine has been stellar at listening to their Players, it's just that since there is not an immediate effect the Players often assume the opposite. (Yet every Release Notes, people realize Turbine does listen when there are positive changes that reflect the voice of the Players...albeit from a year prior!)
Rome wasn't built in a day, and MMOs aren't either. You have to have patience and trust in Turbine. They have the track-record to show that they have earned at least a modicum of trust that they do listen to their Playerbase.
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Re: Seriously, enough already
I think the difficulty is that we respond with wants that are not going to happen. They ask additional questions in the same area in an attempt to find a compromise. Something that a significant portion customer base will accept and meet Turbine's requirements for implementing.
You sound like some of my kids. I am Turbine (the parent). We are going around around in circles trying to find a partial solution. My son is very unhappy at the moment. He is not getting what he is asking for.
TsarithArcher covered the time lag issue. It can easily take one year from the time they post a set of questions before any changes happen.
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Re: Seriously, enough already
As a fellow lifer having been playing since release I understand your frustration, but I disagree with your aversion to the "community" threads. I personally appreciate that the community managers give us a place where they ask us specific questions and we can be assured that our answers, however silly or contradictory, will be read & considered by the development team. I don't expect that my every suggestion will be implemented in the game, but I appreciate greatly knowing that my suggestions will get some small piece of the dev teams' attention and may contribute to the overall changes that are made down the road.
It takes time to implement changes. Mirkwood may suck, but keep hope alive that the next update coming will make everything right again. :)
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Re: Seriously, enough already
I couldn't agree more. Every time there's a new "Tell the Community Team", it seems like we've already Told the Community Team, dozens of times in fact.
I suppose I could look at that as a positive thing. Turbine's trying to get a fresh look at the opinions of players.
Instead, I tend to look at it like the OP. Turbine, you can ask us every month what we'd like to see (ask us every day even). It's not going to make us feel like you care about our opinions. For me, it tends to come off like the cheating husband who keeps telling his wife, "this was the last time baby; it'll never happen again".
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Graythandor
keep hope alive that the next update coming will make everything right again. :)
Right, like it will ever be "right" to someone who has been playing for 3 years.
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TsarithArcher
You do realize that even if the Devs were to decide today to implement changes that were overwhelmingly asked for by the Players in the Community Feedback, that we the Players would not see those changes occur in the game until next year at the very earliest, right?
Totally agreed. I was shocked to learn in a dev interview that the Skirmish system was actually in development since before Moria was even released.
Makes me wonder what kind of things they've got under their sleeves that we won't be able to see for some time now.
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IowaHawk
Right, like it will ever be "right" to someone who has been playing for 3 years.
Even the All-Powerful Devs, with all of their vast array of Tools at their disposal, can't make all the people happy all of the time. They can work wonders, but they can't do the impossible.
So, they try to make some of the people happy some of the time...and from the scuttle-butt on the Forums, that seems about right.
There is always something each Player doesn't like and wants fixed/changed/nerfed/buffed *NOW*. However, as they are still playing, then clearly there are some things they do like about LOTRO. So, they are indeed happy some of the time, yet always have something to complain about...ergo, some of the people are happy some of the time.
Sounds to me like the Devs are right on Target for Customer Satisfaction. ;)
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Re: Seriously, enough already
There are a number of things that have happened in game as a result of questions asked in the Community Team threads. They are never instant and often the Community Team threads are the starting points, not the end points.
I can point specifically to the removal of a number of legacies from the game and changes to others that came as a direct result of the team asking us to please include a specific question. It wasn't an overnight change, the data collected was compared to other data and was used as a basis for more investigation. In the end, the decisions were made based on the total data gathered, but the end result was a change that started in the Community Team threads.
So as others have said, the change my be slow, but the feedback is never ignored. It all goes into the information pool we use to make decisions.
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sapience
There are a number of things that have happened in game as a result of questions asked in the Community Team threads. They are never instant and often the Community Team threads are the starting points, not the end points.
I can point specifically to the removal of a number of legacies from the game and changes to others that came as a direct result of the team asking us to please include a specific question. It wasn't an overnight change, the data collected was compared to other data and was used as a basis for more investigation. In the end, the decisions were made based on the total data gathered, but the end result was a change that started in the Community Team threads.
So as others have said, the change my be slow, but the feedback is never ignored. It all goes into the information pool we use to make decisions.
Thanks Sapience! :)
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fallohide
I couldn't agree more. Every time there's a new "Tell the Community Team", it seems like we've already Told the Community Team, dozens of times in fact.
I suppose I could look at that as a positive thing. Turbine's trying to get a fresh look at the opinions of players.
Instead, I tend to look at it like the OP. Turbine, you can ask us every month what we'd like to see (ask us every day even). It's not going to make us feel like you care about our opinions. For me, it tends to come off like the cheating husband who keeps telling his wife, "this was the last time baby; it'll never happen again".
You are so dang skewed! Do you even read and participate in these threads? Just because people give the same answers to questions where they don't pertain* doesn't mean Turbine is just asking the same thing over and over again.
Kahless on a Kracker, Turbine is danged if they do, danged if they don't with most of you!
*here's a perfect example, emphasis mine in Sapience's quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sapience
Question 1
Excluding, PvMP, Legendary Items and Radiance gear, what systems do you feel could be expanded or revised? Please list two and give a brief description of how you would revise/expand them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Graythandor
DO NOT update, expand, or revise ANYTHING in the game until you fix Legendary Items. LIs should be PRIORITY #1.
More useful feedback from a 3 year player!
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sapience
There are a number of things that have happened in game as a result of questions asked in the Community Team threads. They are never instant and often the Community Team threads are the starting points, not the end points.
I can point specifically to the removal of a number of legacies from the game and changes to others that came as a direct result of the team asking us to please include a specific question. It wasn't an overnight change, the data collected was compared to other data and was used as a basis for more investigation. In the end, the decisions were made based on the total data gathered, but the end result was a change that started in the Community Team threads.
So as others have said, the change my be slow, but the feedback is never ignored. It all goes into the information pool we use to make decisions.
Citation needed.
(I kid, I kid!)
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IowaHawk
You are so dang skewed! Do you even read and participate in these threads? Just because people give the same answers to questions where they don't pertain* doesn't mean Turbine is just asking the same thing over and over again.
Kahless on a Kracker, Turbine is danged if they do, danged if they don't with most of you!
*here's a perfect example, emphasis mine in Sapience's quote
More useful feedback from a 3 year player!
lol Way to take my answer out of context. ;) Please note that the above quote was simply a "disclaimer" I felt compelled to add before I went on to answer the question exactly as posed. I'm entitled to point out a caveat to my answer before I give it.
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Re: Seriously, enough already
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/wikipedian_protester.png
http://xkcd.com/285/
No, I don't really have anything useful to add - it's friday afternoon and my brain is complete mush
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drogo1
it's friday afternoon and my brain is complete mush
LOL, I need to find out how you get that to ONLY happen on Fridays...I am sure the forum would thank you. ;)
(I originally misspelled that as Firday...I should have left it...)
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sapience
There are a number of things that have happened in game as a result of questions asked in the Community Team threads. They are never instant and often the Community Team threads are the starting points, not the end points.
I can point specifically to the removal of a number of legacies from the game and changes to others that came as a direct result of the team asking us to please include a specific question. It wasn't an overnight change, the data collected was compared to other data and was used as a basis for more investigation. In the end, the decisions were made based on the total data gathered, but the end result was a change that started in the Community Team threads.
So as others have said, the change my be slow, but the feedback is never ignored. It all goes into the information pool we use to make decisions.
"Thank you for adding reputation to this user"
Players leave feedback all over the place and although I believe the devs when they say they try to read it, some is bound to get lost. Official discussion threads are the places you have the best chance of your feedback being heard (IMHO).
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IowaHawk
LOL, I need to find out how you get that to ONLY happen on Fridays...I am sure the forum would thank you. ;)
(I originally misspelled that as Firday...I should have left it...)
*shhhh!*
I'll let you in on a little secret - I just fake it during the rest of the week. It's just that during Friday afternoons I don't feel so compelled to hide my mentally squishy state :D
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drogo1
*shhhh!*
I'll let you in on a little secret - I just fake it during the rest of the week. It's just that during Friday afternoons I don't feel so compelled to hide my mentally squishy state :D
Hide it? Nah, I just try to suppress it by using a third-person Klingon persona on boards without profanity filters/guidelines/Sapience.
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sapience
There are a number of things that have happened in game as a result of questions asked in the Community Team threads. They are never instant and often the Community Team threads are the starting points, not the end points.
I can point specifically to the removal of a number of legacies from the game and changes to others that came as a direct result of the team asking us to please include a specific question. It wasn't an overnight change, the data collected was compared to other data and was used as a basis for more investigation. In the end, the decisions were made based on the total data gathered, but the end result was a change that started in the Community Team threads.
So as others have said, the change my be slow, but the feedback is never ignored. It all goes into the information pool we use to make decisions.
Thanks Sapience. It does make sense - I understand that the big changes especially take some time to implement. Programmers don't wish code into existence. I get that.
At the same time, it's incredibly frustrating to see what seems like a "look at the monkey" approach. There are some new things in the game that are interesting. There are also things in the game that feel like they were thrown in half finished and abandoned (hobbies for example). It feels like rather than fix the things that so many people have made so many posts about, Turbine just trods along with its head down until it can push out the next new (and somewhat incomplete) feature that will distract everyone - at least for a short while - from the hundred other things they really want fixed.
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fallohide
Thanks Sapience. It does make sense - I understand that the big changes especially take some time to implement. Programmers don't wish code into existence. I get that.
At the same time, it's incredibly frustrating to see what seems like a "look at the monkey" approach. There are some new things in the game that are interesting. There are also things in the game that feel like they were thrown in half finished and abandoned (hobbies for example). It feels like rather than fix the things that so many people have made so many posts about, Turbine just trods along with its head down until it can push out the next new (and somewhat incomplete) feature that will distract everyone - at least for a short while - from the hundred other things they really want fixed.
Interesting - to me hobbies is an example of a course change based on feedback.
They set up a new system (Hobbies) with a small initial item sent up the flagpole to see how many people salute.
Apparently fishing did not make enough of an impact to justify moving whatever was the next hobby high enough up the priority queue for more work.
So they started a new system, released it and gathered feedback and the feedback was such that the system moved down the priority stack far enough that it hasn't been revisted for much beyond minor tweaks since. But when they released it, it seemed they were excited and had big plans.
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Re: Seriously, enough already
If nothing else, the "Tell the Community" threads provide a means for a semi-lucid, semi-civil, semi-coherent statement of player frustrations and angst without the usual irrational, animosity-filled, and incoherent us Vs. them (whomever the "us" and "them" are in any discussion) postings that fill any usual thread.
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Turbine is not going to waste time to make a thread asking for feedback with no intention of analyzing the responses. I mean, seriously.
I can think of a lot more things to get frustrated over than a "tell the community" thread.
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fallohide
Dang shucks, this is so cute. You keep trying lil' fella and one day you'll make a post that is actually logically consistent instead of ad hominem filled fanboi goo.
Should be amusing when he too gets fed up with the tripe Turbine insists on releasing and he turns away from the fanboy path.
He's just the current loud mouth fanboy, there have been others who were almost as loud. Eventually they too soured on the game, and largely left. I suspect with one turns he won't go quietly into the night.
That aside I did come here to comment on this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sapience
I can point specifically to the removal of a number of legacies from the game and changes to others that came as a direct result of the team asking us to please include a specific question. It wasn't an overnight change, the data collected was compared to other data and was used as a basis for more investigation.
Yes, the new legacies were much improved. It's just a shame that you only seem to listen to the things that are easy to fix, not the things you *need* to fix.
I'm sorry, but the more time that passes without you guys coming out and saying how you are going to actually *fix* things Legendary items, or Radiance, the less likely people are to believe you actually want us to tell you how to fix what is wrong.
You can't lie about what is going to be in an expansion, base pre-sales on that lie, then expect people who purchased based on a lie to be happy can you? Sure, for a while we could say "oh they just didn't get to the class quests, don't worry, they are coming". If we can't believe your press releases, why should we ever believe you are actually taking feedback into consideration?
But seriously, its been, what, 4 months now? No word on those class quests, new skills, virtues yet.
4 months past due.
Stop patronizing your customers with these "tell the community threads". Your lack of communication and action on the topics is just making you look to be more and more disingenuous.
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drogo1
Interesting - to me hobbies is an example of a course change based on feedback.
They set up a new system (Hobbies) with a small initial item sent up the flagpole to see how many people salute.
Apparently fishing did not make enough of an impact to justify moving whatever was the next hobby high enough up the priority queue for more work.
So they started a new system, released it and gathered feedback and the feedback was such that the system moved down the priority stack far enough that it hasn't been revisted for much beyond minor tweaks since. But when they released it, it seemed they were excited and had big plans.
Maybe so - but I think fishing had a lot of interested players when it first went live. In fact, if I remember right, it was one of those things that people had asked about for some time that actually was implemented. I think the reason it flopped though had more to do with its lack of functionality than with a lack of player interest. Anglers pressed a single button over and over again only to fill up their severely limited inventory spaces with dozens of garbage items (including the fish) that had no use and vendored for 1cp each.
I'd just love to see Turbine fix some of the things that players are constantly asking (even complaining) about rather than see another new, possibly half-finished, feature that will, after a month or two (or even a day or two for the more hardcore players) simply get added to the list of things players are complaining about.
Yes, there are always going to be someone who complains no matter how things get fixed. But there is a palpable difference in the way it affects game/forum atmosphere when the complaints are aimed at "you nerfed uberattack!" compared to when the complaints are "awesome new horse... which is screwed up to the point that I can't get one... again". One is a disagreement with how powerful a feature is; the other is Turbine can't seem to get its act together.
Those two things have very different effects on player morale.
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FutenCake
But seriously, its been, what, 4 months now? No word on those class quests, new skills, virtues yet.
4 months past due.
Stop patronizing your customers with these "tell the community threads". Your lack of communication and action on the topics is just making you look to be more and more disingenuous.
I will assume you are referring to this press release?
http://www.lotro.com/news/pressrelea...ge-of-mirkwood
Quote:
NEW FEATURES:
* The Epic Conclusion to Volume II: Mines of Moria™ – Under the command of Celeborn and Galadriel, players will fight through vast armies of Orcs alongside the Elves of Lórien in a battle that will take them to Dol Guldur, the fortress of the Ringwraiths. This update includes Book 9 and the Epilogue to the sweeping epic tale begun with the award-winning Mines of Moria expansion.
* Increased Level Cap — Players will be able advance their characters up to level 65, gaining access to new traits, virtues, skills and class quests.
* Answer the Call of War! – Jump into the heat of battle with the new Skirmishes feature. Skirmishes offer endless action in repeatable, randomized instances where players can create and lead customizable soldiers into battle, training them to greater skill as they earn victories against the forces of shadow. Answer the call of war wherever violence erupts with the new “World Join” function that lets players and their fellowships band together to fight in various locations throughout Middle-earth.
* Take up Arms! – Infiltrate the dark jails, deadly arenas and savage stables of Dol Guldur, the fortress of the Ringwraiths, and strike a blow against Sauron’s forces in new 3 and 6-player instances. Call upon your fellows to adventure into the most deadly 12-player raid yet and face the ultimate challenge – the Nazgûl Lord!
* Major Gameplay Enhancements – Turbine continues to improve the award-winning experience of LOTRO with major improvements to the combat and Legendary Items systems. Players will experience improved responsiveness when in the heat of battle. Players will also be able to create and craft their own customized Second and Third Age Legendary Items from raw materials and grow their weapons’ power to level 60. Achieve new Legacies, new titles, and a fourth Runic slot that will make Legendary Items even more unique and powerful.
Even though you may have a point about Class Quests***, you are dead wrong about skills and virtues. Look:
http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Relea...neral_Gameplay
http://www.lotro.com/gameinfo/devdia...skill-upgrades
http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Relea...s.2FReputation
So, in short, if we take class quests out, I got this:
Quote:
NEW FEATURES:
* The Epic Conclusion to Volume II: Mines of Moria™ – Under the command of Celeborn and Galadriel, players will fight through vast armies of Orcs alongside the Elves of Lórien in a battle that will take them to Dol Guldur, the fortress of the Ringwraiths. This update includes Book 9 and the Epilogue to the sweeping epic tale begun with the award-winning Mines of Moria expansion.
* Increased Level Cap — Players will be able advance their characters up to level 65, gaining access to new traits, virtues, and skills.
* Answer the Call of War! – Jump into the heat of battle with the new Skirmishes feature. Skirmishes offer endless action in repeatable, randomized instances where players can create and lead customizable soldiers into battle, training them to greater skill as they earn victories against the forces of shadow. Answer the call of war wherever violence erupts with the new “World Join” function that lets players and their fellowships band together to fight in various locations throughout Middle-earth.
* Take up Arms! – Infiltrate the dark jails, deadly arenas and savage stables of Dol Guldur, the fortress of the Ringwraiths, and strike a blow against Sauron’s forces in new 3 and 6-player instances. Call upon your fellows to adventure into the most deadly 12-player raid yet and face the ultimate challenge – the Nazgûl Lord!
* Major Gameplay Enhancements – Turbine continues to improve the award-winning experience of LOTRO with major improvements to the combat and Legendary Items systems. Players will experience improved responsiveness when in the heat of battle. Players will also be able to create and craft their own customized Second and Third Age Legendary Items from raw materials and grow their weapons’ power to level 60. Achieve new Legacies, new titles, and a fourth Runic slot that will make Legendary Items even more unique and powerful.
Instead of this:
Quote:
NEW FEATURES:
* The Epic Conclusion to Volume II: Mines of Moria™ – Under the command of Celeborn and Galadriel, players will fight through vast armies of Orcs alongside the Elves of Lórien in a battle that will take them to Dol Guldur, the fortress of the Ringwraiths. This update includes Book 9 and the Epilogue to the sweeping epic tale begun with the award-winning Mines of Moria expansion.
* Increased Level Cap — Players will be able advance their characters up to level 65, gaining access to new traits, virtues, skills and class quests.
* Answer the Call of War! – Jump into the heat of battle with the new Skirmishes feature. Skirmishes offer endless action in repeatable, randomized instances where players can create and lead customizable soldiers into battle, training them to greater skill as they earn victories against the forces of shadow. Answer the call of war wherever violence erupts with the new “World Join” function that lets players and their fellowships band together to fight in various locations throughout Middle-earth.
* Take up Arms! – Infiltrate the dark jails, deadly arenas and savage stables of Dol Guldur, the fortress of the Ringwraiths, and strike a blow against Sauron’s forces in new 3 and 6-player instances. Call upon your fellows to adventure into the most deadly 12-player raid yet and face the ultimate challenge – the Nazgûl Lord!
* Major Gameplay Enhancements – Turbine continues to improve the award-winning experience of LOTRO with major improvements to the combat and Legendary Items systems. Players will experience improved responsiveness when in the heat of battle. Players will also be able to create and craft their own customized Second and Third Age Legendary Items from raw materials and grow their weapons’ power to level 60. Achieve new Legacies, new titles, and a fourth Runic slot that will make Legendary Items even more unique and powerful.
For my $20? Gee, kinda puts it into perspective, huh?
***EDIT: BOOSH! Even class quests technically got an update, look:
http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Relea...icial#Questing
Intro Class Quests – In certain cases, a few skill based objectives in the NPE would not activate when the player landed a critical or devastating attack. This has been fixed. All skill executions are now counted correctly.
QED.
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fallohide
Maybe so - but I think fishing had a lot of interested players when it first went live. In fact, if I remember right, it was one of those things that people had asked about for some time that actually was implemented. I think the reason it flopped though had more to do with its lack of functionality than with a lack of player interest. Anglers pressed a single button over and over again only to fill up their severely limited inventory spaces with dozens of garbage items (including the fish) that had no use and vendored for 1cp each.
I'd just love to see Turbine fix some of the things that players are constantly asking (even complaining) about rather than see another new, possibly half-finished, feature that will, after a month or two (or even a day or two for the more hardcore players) simply get added to the list of things players are complaining about.
Yes, there are always going to be someone who complains no matter how things get fixed. But there is a palpable difference in the way it affects game/forum atmosphere when the complaints are aimed at "you nerfed uberattack!" compared to when the complaints are "awesome new horse... which is screwed up to the point that I can't get one... again". One is a disagreement with how powerful a feature is; the other is Turbine can't seem to get its act together.
Those two things have very different effects on player morale.
You have some points, although I feel your characterization of the current mess with Will Peartree is a bit unfair - everyone will have a chance to get the nifty new festival horse - just a bit later than anticipated.
The removal of Will to avoid damage to the in-game economy (yes, there are still those of us for whom 10+ gold is a large amount of gold - and I'd hazard a guess that it's still a large majority of the player base to boot) was a swift reaction - driven in large part, I'd guess, by past experience with such issues where they did NOT remove it and then had to deal with the repercussions to the in-game economy.
It's interesting to see someone else's take on the same events and come up with such a different interpretation of what's going on.
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IowaHawk
Wow, you work really really hard at this don't you? You can't even bring yourself to admit that the press release (which many of us based our purchase upon) was false.
Nothing you linked there is a new class quest, new trait, new skill, or new virtue.
"Upgraded" skills are not *New* skills. The upgrades in many cases were little more than changes they should have made to the skills anyway. Or changes that make a useless skill...still just as useless.
Where in those links were the New Virtues and New Traits even supposed to be?
The point isn't the $20. The point isn't just that these things are not in the expansion. The point is that they raised the level cap, but didn't bother to include any character advancement with those 5 levels. The point is that they sold this expansion to people on false pretenses, and 4 months later they still haven't made it right.
The fact that you will even try to defend this blatant and obvious mis-truth that they haven't even attempted to address either by communicating to the community or by actually including the advertised features really cements your fanboy reputation. Good job.
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Seriously enough already....
Reading the same rants from the forum warriors (for both sides) is getting old. Learn to state your case, disagree and move on.
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jodokast4ever
I don't understand why every month (it seems), we, the community, are asked for feedback on new systems / revamps / etc. we would like to see.
How many times do you have to ask this question(s), or better yet, how many times do you have to reword the same question(s)???
I say enough already. Either respond / create / update / revamp / tell us never to the answers we post repeatedly everytime these questions are asked, and stop beating the horse... IT'S BEEN DEAD for months, if not years!!!
Hmm, well I for one am encouraged by the recent TTCT posts asking for feedback, and so far they have covered just about all the major problems instead of asking fluff questions.
I see this as an official avenue to add my "vote" to the issues at hand. And while individually my opinions won't change anything, hopefully when the people at Turbine analyze the data they will get a good feel for what people WANT out of the game. From there, they need to decide what the can or are willing to do to satisfy the majority.
Wil things change in the near future? Not a chance. But I do believe that they are making what changes they can for the next paid expansion. The timing feels about right to me assuming a late fall release. Some of the changes, while having a big impact on game play, are probably not overly difficult to impliment. I imagine changing Radiance to a virtue is a lot easier to impliment than the combat changes that came with Mirkwood for instance.
Regardless, I would rather voice my ideas when asked than be left in a void. At least this way I believe they are trying to change the game to make it better, and it can only help to have an official outlet to post your desires.
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Re: Seriously, enough already
If you don't want to provide feedback, fine. Don't. But telling them to quit asking is the height of stupidity, IMO. What, exactly, will that achieve? They'll have less data to make decisions with, and have less data they can use to defend the priorities of work already underway.
As people have mentioned, the development times for many of these things are long. 6 months minimum to get through planning, prioritization, design, development, testing, and deployment. Often it's going to be a year or more, at least for anything "big". So the faster and deeper they can gather information about what their customers want, the sooner we'll get to see changes we hope to see. And if something big gets postponed past a certain window (which is probably heading toward closure for any expansion in the fall)... well, then we might get to wait another year for it.
Bottom line: contribute, if you have something constructive to contribute. Otherwise, STHU.
Khafar
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Khafar
As people have mentioned, the development times for many of these things are long. 6 months minimum to get through planning, prioritization, design, development, testing, and deployment. Often it's going to be a year or more, at least for anything "big"...
Khafar
To emphasize Khafar's point (speaking as an old engineering manager, director, and executive at different stages of my career -- couple of more years and I can retire for good and play all day long...):
Unless they're using some variation of so-called "extreme programming" (God forbid -- that's a great way to produce a **** product), they will be going through:
Requirements analyses
Concept development
Preliminary design
First Review
Detailed design
Second Review
Implementation
Test and Evaluation
Rework
Re-test and evaluation
Release
(The above is a so-called "waterfall" process -- see below.)
All through that process, quality assurance has to interject themselves to insure that the product of each stage of development meets certain standards or the product cannot advance to the next stage.
For a small company like Turbine (their whole company is smaller than the last development program I managed in Silicon Valley, years ago), they most likely use an abbreviated process (there are many schemes out there) designed to minimize cost and schedule (at, unfortunately, a sacrifice of product quality -- but that's a deliberate trade-off), but the various stages of development still all exist. Even a "simple" review can take a week (if done right); the other stages take months for any significant effort. And, like pregnancy, throwing more bodies at the problem doesn't get the job done any faster.
It's pretty clear (from my perspective in having "been there, done that") that they have rushed a lot of their recent work. That has been a major mistake on their part since product quality has suffered and they have impacted the satisfaction of their customer base (a "bozo no, no"). The responsibility for that falls on their producer -- not the dev's.
I'm an old goat; I have the "patience of age". My suggestion to everyone is to back off -- if you don't, I can pretty much guarantee that the job won't get done right. When marketing starts dictating schedules -- as they will, if the clamor gets too overwhelming -- products go to hell in a handbasket. Again, been there, done that...
If you are really upset, vote with your pocketbook. If not, be cordial on the forums (and when using the GMs). You catch more flies with honey than vinegar, as they say... although I have no idea why you'd want to catch flies to begin with.
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Hah, Waterfall. I'm guessing you are either:
A. threatened by the lack of a traditional project manager role in Agile software development, or
B. you have been involved in some project that used some Extreme Programming practices, mixed with Waterfall, and maybe a dash of Kanban (which failed miserably)?
Waterfall may work for manufacturing, but for the inherent chaos and unpredictable nature of programming it has proven itself to be to inflexible to really produce the right product. There is a reason most of the software industry is moving to agile practices. You may want to educate yourself a bit if you still think that Waterfall results in quality code.
That aside, I'm pretty sure that at least some of the teams at Turbine are using some flavor of Agile programming. I do believe I read "Sprints" in one of the developer diaries.
Not that it means much. When you start mixing Waterfall with Extreme Programming and add a dash of Scrum in there it isn't really a recipe for success. Most of the mix and match development styles are doomed to failure.
Edit: Yeah, this could get off topic really fast. If you want to debate this we could take it over to off topic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kreegan
If you are really upset, vote with your pocketbook. If not, be cordial on the forums (and when using the GMs). You catch more flies with honey than vinegar, as they say... although I have no idea why you'd want to catch flies to begin with.
Can't vote with pocketbook, lifer. I have incentive to voice my dissatisfaction with the game.
PS: Waterfall is bad.
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drogo1
You have some points, although I feel your characterization of the current mess with Will Peartree is a bit unfair - everyone will have a chance to get the nifty new festival horse - just a bit later than anticipated.
The removal of Will to avoid damage to the in-game economy (yes, there are still those of us for whom 10+ gold is a large amount of gold - and I'd hazard a guess that it's still a large majority of the player base to boot) was a swift reaction - driven in large part, I'd guess, by past experience with such issues where they did NOT remove it and then had to deal with the repercussions to the in-game economy.
It's interesting to see someone else's take on the same events and come up with such a different interpretation of what's going on.
The spring horse is just an example. It's more about the collected big picture of issues. I'm not super upset about having to wait for the new horse. In fact, (and I may be inviting bags of flaming poo on my doorstep with this one) I'm one of the people who actually reported the bug. Although, I did tell them that I'd be ok if they left the price at 3s :)
As to the economy, I definitely understand. 10 gold is a ton for me too. I think I have about 25 total, across all 9 characters.
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FutenCake
There is a reason most of the software industry is moving to agile practices.
Turbine has, and so as my company, although I have some gripes about that process too ;). Still, even though Agile helps to parallelize certain aspects of development, to require some better processes, and to first find and then make adjustments to solve problems sooner... you're still going to be planning, designing, implementing, testing, beta testing, reworking here and there, testing some more, and releasing. It's no "magic bullet". Big features are still going to take a year or more to get to market from ideation to deployment. Only fairly minor or trivial features will travel that road in 3 months or less.
Khafar
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IowaHawk
For my $20? Gee, kinda puts it into perspective, huh?
This is your opinion and therefore your argument is false and completely wasted my time. Negative rep for not posting the facts.
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Graythandor
As a fellow lifer having been playing since release I understand your frustration, but I disagree with your aversion to the "community" threads. I personally appreciate that the community managers give us a place where they ask us specific questions and we can be assured that our answers, however silly or contradictory, will be read & considered by the development team. I don't expect that my every suggestion will be implemented in the game, but I appreciate greatly knowing that my suggestions will get some small piece of the dev teams' attention and may contribute to the overall changes that are made down the road.
…
I agree. I appreciate being given the opportunity to voice my opinion. Granted, I voice it anyway on the forums. But it’s nice being asked. *grins*
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Re: Seriously, enough already
To answer the original poster, not everyone jumps in on every single post. Some of us delay suggestions to have a better way to phrase it or just out of pure laziness. Also, new people start using the forums steadily too. (new players, and old players who never before bothered) It's valid to ask the same question so that others will get the chance to answer.
In addition, even those people who are just repeating themselves do not have to do so. People are clearly encouraged by Turbine to come up with other remarks on ANY idea they'd like to see implemented to improve the game. As it has been pointed out, they do try to steer people from heavily discussed topics, it's just that some players ignore the attempts to veer from their hobby horse. :) If you're not able to think of something new, no worries!
As for this . . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kreegan
. . . text deleted . . .
Requirements analyses
Concept development
Preliminary design
First Review
Detailed design
Second Review
Implementation
Test and Evaluation
Rework
Re-test and evaluation
Release
(The above is a so-called "waterfall" process -- see below.)
. . . text deleted . . .
Geez, Kreegan, I get enough of that at work! :)
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nymphonic
Turbine is not going to waste time to make a thread asking for feedback with no intention of analyzing the responses. I mean, seriously.
I can think of a lot more things to get frustrated over than a "tell the community" thread.
Like people who post threads about how annoying TTC threads are? :D
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jodokast4ever
I don't understand why every month (it seems), we, the community, are asked for feedback on new systems / revamps / etc. we would like to see.
How many times do you have to ask this question(s), or better yet, how many times do you have to reword the same question(s)???
I say enough already. Either respond / create / update / revamp / tell us never to the answers we post repeatedly everytime these questions are asked, and stop beating the horse... IT'S BEEN DEAD for months, if not years!!!
I'm a lifer. I haven't logged in though since shortly after Mirkwood (no need to at that point). I completed most of what it had to offer pretty shortly after release, and choose not to grind to do the gated material. However, I do check the forums often.
I'm amazed at how many times the devs seem to ask the same thing over and over again. If they haven't figured out by now what the community wants with all their questions, polls, surveys, etc... it's time for them to move along to another company / field / unemployment.
Phew... rant off for now. I'm sure others can agree with me here. Have a great day!
I agree 100% they asked all the questions, then said dont ask us againg. They keep skirting around trying to find anything to work on but removing radiance from the game and fixing the LI Lotery mess. Instead they seam hell bent on ignoring those hundres of post on radaince and LI's and keep asking what else would you like us to work on.
The answer is Randiance remove it, LI's remove the lotery. Pure and simple. To bad they are too dense to understand that, and they have faulty data pointing that folks love these systems.
/rant
One day the guy who created radiance will be standing tall before the man to answer fo it, and then he going to get a surpise when he takes off his cloak and he finds the man has a pitchfork, and a forked tounge with fire and brimstone.
/rant off
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Re: Seriously, enough already
It sounds to me like the OP needs to just take a break from the forums, and perhaps from the game. There's no dead horse here. A topic has to be dead to be considered a dead horse, and the topics discussed in these threads are typically hot items and are very much alive for both the devs and the players.
I personally like the way Turbine asks for feedback and gives us the opportunity to offer suggestions that appeal to us. I realize that things have been a bit sparse over the last year or so, but Turbine has shown repeatedly that they listen to their players and they like to implement things that players would like to see - particularly those items that are in high demand by many players.
I hope they keep asking for the feedback. I hope they keep asking for suggestions and creative ideas. That's how good things happen.
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GregJL
Like people who post threads about how annoying TTC threads are? :D
I didn't get it at first then I started laughing. That was a good one!
+1 rep!
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jodokast4ever
I don't understand why every month (it seems), we, the community, are asked for feedback on new systems / revamps / etc. we would like to see.
How many times do you have to ask this question(s), or better yet, how many times do you have to reword the same question(s)???
I say enough already. Either respond / create / update / revamp / tell us never to the answers we post repeatedly everytime these questions are asked, and stop beating the horse... IT'S BEEN DEAD for months, if not years!!!
I'm a lifer. I haven't logged in though since shortly after Mirkwood (no need to at that point). I completed most of what it had to offer pretty shortly after release, and choose not to grind to do the gated material. However, I do check the forums often.
I'm amazed at how many times the devs seem to ask the same thing over and over again. If they haven't figured out by now what the community wants with all their questions, polls, surveys, etc... it's time for them to move along to another company / field / unemployment.
Phew... rant off for now. I'm sure others can agree with me here. Have a great day!
I'm a lifer as well, and while I haven't been the most satisfied customer in recent history, the recent feedback threads from the forum moderators are a welcome change. Any feedback left on the Tell the Community threads absolutely has to be noticed. Why would they go through the trouble of compiling all this data if it wasn't part of the creative process? Complaining about a chance to give an official opportunity to vent about what needs to change is utterly crass and foolish.
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ericlewis
They keep skirting around trying to find anything to work on but removing radiance from the game and fixing the LI Lotery mess. Instead they seam hell bent on ignoring those hundres of post on radaince and LI's and keep asking what else would you like us to work on.
Wow they are doing a horrible job of ignoring the "Big" questions then
2/18/2010 they asked
You are given the opportunity to make two changes to Radiance Gear. What are the two most important changes you would make?
2/11/2010 they asked
You are given the opportunity to make two changes to the Legendary Item System. What are the two most important changes you would make?
So just because they exclude a couple possible answers from some Tell the Community threads doesn't mean they are ignoring the issues.
Most reasonable people know that changes take time and just because it's been discussed for a long time doesn't mean they can or will make the changes that you think they should instantly.
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Unique
Wow they are doing a horrible job of ignoring the "Big" questions then
2/18/2010 they asked
You are given the opportunity to make two changes to Radiance Gear. What are the two most important changes you would make?
2/11/2010 they asked
You are given the opportunity to make two changes to the Legendary Item System. What are the two most important changes you would make?
So just because they exclude a couple possible answers from some Tell the Community threads doesn't mean they are ignoring the issues.
Most reasonable people know that changes take time and just because it's been discussed for a long time doesn't mean they can or will make the changes that you think they should instantly.
I will answer with this, have we seen anything at all? Yes they asked the questions but we have recieved no feedback from the answers. yet they keep asking more and more questions. Same thing no feedback. To me it seams they giving us a chance to speak out, but on the other hand have not even bothered saying hey we got it were going to take it under advisement.
It is a two way street, and so far all there getting is recomendations, we have yet to hear anything at all. I dont expect we will it would take months of programming but they could at least say ok were getting what you say.
Im just saying were not getting any communications on anything from them. I fully expect that once we get to rohan you will have to have 200 rad if they keep it up at this pace.
The lack of commuication from the dev team on the tell the comunity posts is very disturbing, its like they dont give a rats rear end.
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Re: Seriously, enough already
If you do not wish to help make the game better, then do not. Most people like the idea of giving real feedback not flaming the boards all the time.
I stated this on another thread. When a marketing department, and believe me it is the marketing department that is gathering this data, stops asking questions about something, they have ALREADY made a decision.
They have been very careful to say tells what to do except for LI, Housing, and I can not remember right now.
This means they have taken enough suggestions, good and bad, discussed it with all departments of the team and have made a decision on what they are going to do with these aspects of the game.
Now if they decide to do nothing, this is also a decision. I know as I was a VP of marketing for a very large company and many times doing nothing is your best and only real choice.
I am sure they have made a decision on several items but we will not see it for some time.
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ericlewis
I will answer with this, have we seen anything at all?
No, and you won't. Not until they've made a set of changes, playtested them internally, etc. They're not about to say anything about that until it's a long way down the road toward getting on the live servers. Then we'd probably get a dev diary about it. Players seize on anything they say as some sort of "promise", and they absolutely don't want to talk futures until they can at least say "Soon".
I don't need anyone patting me on the head and reassuring me that they "hear me". I already know that. What I'll be looking for is that dev diary, but I don't expect to see it until the next expansion is close to going out the door.
Khafar
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Turbine has very limited resources(I've heard that ZC is the only class dev left...Idk if this is true, but it would make sense considering the fact that they decided to instead of add new skills, copy-paste old ones with a few changes) compared to some other MMOs out there. Give them time. At least they've been asking the community some good questions about what they want to see. Hopefully they'll take this feedback and use it well(although I was kind of surprised that they left out LIs as a possible system revamp...maybe it's because they're already working on it...or maybe it's because they know it'll take a ton of time and don't want to spend that much of their resources). I'm quite happy that they were asking about PvMP. Unfortunately, there is more than one thing that needs to be fixed with PvMP, but at least it's a start :)
Although there does need to be more communication on the forums...I hate to say it, but even Mythic has more communication with their player base than Turbine does. There was a period long long ago where Jalessa was actively communicating on the PvMP forums. But that has since fallen off. I think that there needs to be a bit more of that not only in PvMP forums, but in the LI, instances and other forums
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sapience
There are a number of things that have happened in game as a result of questions asked in the Community Team threads. They are never instant and often the Community Team threads are the starting points, not the end points.
I can point specifically to the removal of a number of legacies from the game and changes to others that came as a direct result of the team asking us to please include a specific question. It wasn't an overnight change, the data collected was compared to other data and was used as a basis for more investigation. In the end, the decisions were made based on the total data gathered, but the end result was a change that started in the Community Team threads.
So as others have said, the change my be slow, but the feedback is never ignored. It all goes into the information pool we use to make decisions.
Thing is, you guys ask but you never reply, never say anything. You never comment on what we say, never explain what you guys think, never share your views about what we said.
It's kinda like being asked something from a Stone wall...it never replies back, makes the whole thing rather de-motivating.
PS - Not to mention that you guys don't really listen to us. The community has said for a long time that gating sucks (not just radiance). But you dno't listen
-
Re: Seriously, enough already
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Differential
I think that there needs to be a bit more of that not only in PvMP forums, but in the LI, instances and other forums
How much communication you get in a certain area depends on the individual developer(s) responsible. It's entirely voluntary, so how much they post is a function of their professional and personal judgement of how important that is. In order to sustain public postings for long, they need to A) believe that lurking simply isn't sufficient, B) believe they're not getting enough interaction via the NDA testing program, and C) have pretty thick skins. Most developers who do post on public forums will burn out on it, sooner or later, and fall back into 'lurk' mode.
In any NDA testing program I've ever been in, there's been more developer interaction than there is on the public forums. Often a lot more. Two of the primary reasons for that are:
- The feedback and interaction tends to be much more focused on what they need.
- Civility is required, or you can be removed from the program. They don't have time or energy to waste on problem children, so those are likely to get weeded out.
In any case, I really doubt Turbine is ever going to make it a job requirement to post on the forums, for a fair number of reasons. One of which is that many developers aren't terribly tactful ;).
Khafar
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Re: Seriously, enough already
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/3634/ohlookj.jpg
Seriously, you people are pathetic with all this complaining. You whine that Turbine doesn't care about your needs, and when they try to gather data on what you actually want you complain too. Do all of us a favor and close your account. It'll make everyone happier.
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Quote:
Originally Posted by
trebizond
Seriously, you people are pathetic with all this complaining. You whine that Turbine doesn't care about your needs, and when they try to gather data on what you actually want you complain too. Do all of us a favor and close your account. It'll make everyone happier.
LOL! Complaining about complainers!! I love it, who's pathetic now?
Just ignore thread.....Brilliant huh?
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Quote:
Originally Posted by
trebizond
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/3634/ohlookj.jpg
Seriously, you people are pathetic with all this complaining. You whine that Turbine doesn't care about your needs, and when they try to gather data on what you actually want you complain too. Do all of us a favor and close your account. It'll make everyone happier.
Agreed. I would hate to be a Dev. There is absolutely no way to keep from being insulted on a game forum if you're a Dev.
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ericlewis
I agree 100% they asked all the questions, then said dont ask us againg. They keep skirting around trying to find anything to work on but removing radiance from the game and fixing the LI Lotery mess. Instead they seam hell bent on ignoring those hundres of post on radaince and LI's and keep asking what else would you like us to work on.
The answer is Randiance remove it, LI's remove the lotery. Pure and simple. To bad they are too dense to understand that, and they have faulty data pointing that folks love these systems.
/rant
One day the guy who created radiance will be standing tall before the man to answer fo it, and then he going to get a surpise when he takes off his cloak and he finds the man has a pitchfork, and a forked tounge with fire and brimstone.
/rant off
Really? You find radiance gear so reprehensible you hope it sends someone to hell? Really?
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Grodo
This is your opinion and therefore your argument is false and completely wasted my time. Negative rep for not posting the facts.
It's ironic beyond comprehension that you chose to quote from a post that was laden with references, and that you do not have enough rep to give me negative rep.
*slow clap*
Well played!
/sarcasm
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Quote:
Originally Posted by
trebizond
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/3634/ohlookj.jpg
Seriously, you people are pathetic with all this complaining. You whine that Turbine doesn't care about your needs, and when they try to gather data on what you actually want you complain too. Do all of us a favor and close your account. It'll make everyone happier.
This, I <3 u 4ev.
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Re: Seriously, enough already
I'm easy, I don't get half the technical stuff ya'll talkin about which is fine by me, I'd just be happy if most things worked properly, like my 071 Madil , everything has to work in synchronicity or it dont work.
So with all the lag and the so called great improvents that are blech at best. Above all just do your job and make it work smooth like it did two and a half years or so ,again.
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Re: Seriously, enough already
I read the first page and a couple of posts from the second before I realised this thread is almost a year old (give or take a week)
Interesting to see how much has changed in-game (and how much hasn't) since this thread was started though...
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Can we pls stop the necro on dead threads over 3 months old pls?
sheesh
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Yula_the_Mighty
I think the difficulty is that we respond with wants that are not going to happen. They ask additional questions in the same area in an attempt to find a compromise. Something that a significant portion customer base will accept and meet Turbine's requirements for implementing.
You sound like some of my kids. I am Turbine (the parent). We are going around around in circles trying to find a partial solution. My son is very unhappy at the moment. He is not getting what he is asking for.
TsarithArcher covered the time lag issue. It can easily take one year from the time they post a set of questions before any changes happen.
Yeah, a year is about right (there was a big "legendary" item feedback thread right after Siege of Mirkwood).
And when those changes happen, 50% will be almost perfect (yes, we can replace legacies on our "legendary" items now) and 50% will be botched so badly that you'll boggle at the idea that someone thought this was a good solution (new relic acquisition model that removed in-game functionality and turned it into a store-bought item).
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Re: Seriously, enough already
Quote:
Originally Posted by
giniluv
Can we pls stop the necro on dead threads over 3 months old pls?
sheesh
LOL. Didn't even notice the OP date. It just seemed so ... timely. So ... now. So appropriate to our current situation.
The true irony, of course, is when people don't necro threads and then get yelled at for not using the search function.
So where's the cutoff? Three months sounds reasonable, but I'm sure there are posters who think that is too old. Ah well, can't please everyone all the time....
