Lua UI Plugins in LOTRO

With the breaking news of Lua’s introduction into The Lord of the Rings Online, we wanted to give you a brief history of how this system came about, what state it is in, and where we want it to go.

History:
To start, I will say that the primary driver behind introducing UI plugins is this: no single version of a UI element will ever be ideal for all players everywhere. What one player loves about part of the UI can send the player standing next to them reeling into a frothing rage of frustration. Knowing this, a small group of us got together last year and began investigating the possibility of adding a UI scripting system.

As several other games have used Lua successfully for UI scripting, we decided to look into it and were quickly able to get a prototype Lua UI scripting interface into our engine. Since then, we have gradually continued to develop the system alongside our other initiatives. Today, we are in the process of Beta testing the Lua UI scripting interface on our closed Beta preview servers.

Current State:
Many of you have been asking what this means when it goes live. This system has been implemented to allow players to override existing elements in the graphical user interface. The functionality available in its current state is small in scope but introduces a lot of fun UI possibilities. Our Lua-based UI plugin system exposes functionality through chunks of functionality referred to as “APIs.” In its current state, we have implemented the following APIs:

• Basic UI element creation (such as windows, text boxes, buttons, etc.)
• Quickslot information (allowing for additional quickslot arrangements for skills, items, etc.)
• Inventory UI information
• Your character’s morale/power information as well as what effects you currently have on you

To clarify, our implementation of Lua scripting in our game is not a macro-able/BOT-able interface. The system does not allow automated input such as mouse-clicks or macroing, nor does it allow automatic skill execution. Any UIs created through Lua scripts will still require human interaction to use.

We intend to continue heavy Beta testing on the Lua UI scripting system on the private test servers. There are several internal hurdles that remain to be cleared before the initial launch of the system and it is not yet guaranteed that “Lua in LOTRO” will launch in the Volume 3 Book 2 (F2P launch) timeframe. Much like our initial launch of QuestGuide or DX10, we will likely launch the feature as a public “beta” stage/“work in progress” as we continue to solidify and expand the initial functionality.

The Future:
As for our future plans for this, our intention is to continue to add more API functionality after the initial launch. For example, some of the popular requested APIs are: target, fellowship, and raid vitals, as well as vault functionality similar to the current API’s inventory functionality. The ultimate goal for this system is to allow players to legitimately customize their UI as a largely upgraded version of our current long-standing “UI skinning” tech. It’s all about the UI and letting players change it so the information we already expose in our current UI can be presented in different aesthetic fashions.

I hope this information clarifies what “Lua scripting” means for The Lord of the Rings Online. As we come closer to the actual launch, we will provide more information into the specifics of the system. We are very excited about this feature and look forward to the day when it goes live allowing players to have a much more customizable experience with our graphical interface.

Thanks for the clarification.

So definately no "gearscore" type of add-ons. Ok.
Guess that also means no "auctioneer" types neither. Oh well.
Um...I'll take it. I've begged for one consolidated BAG for long time...:)

Good news!

Good to hear! This sounds like an excellent addition to LOTRO now.

I wonder what plugins the community will come up with through this?

What does Lua stand for?

I know UI = user interface.

And as long as there will be no bot scripts it's all good.

Thanks for your hard work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dinara

What does Lua stand for?

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From http://www.lua.org/about.html

Quote:

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What's in a name?
"Lua" (pronounced LOO-ah) means "Moon" in Portuguese. As such, it is neither an acronym nor an abbreviation, but a noun. More specifically, "Lua" is a name, the name of the Earth's moon and the name of the language. Like most names, it should be written in lower case with an initial capital, that is, "Lua". Please do not write it as "LUA", which is both ugly and confusing, because then it becomes an acronym with different meanings for different people. So, please, write "Lua" right!

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dinara

What does Lua stand for?

I know UI = user interface.

And as long as there will be no bot scripts it's all good.

Thanks for your hard work.

---

To answer your question I'll give you an interesting information tidbit of the day: Lua as it was intentionally named isn't actually an acronym or abbreviation; it is a noun. According to the creators of the Lua scripting language, it is a Portuguese word meaning the moon (which also explains their logo that resembles the moon orbiting the Earth). So there you have it =).

Edit: Blast! This is what I get for getting distracted while writing a post: Fredelas beat me to the punch =(.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Narrel

To clarify, our implementation of Lua scripting in our game is not a macro-able/BOT-able interface. The system does not allow automated input such as mouse-clicks or macroing, nor does it allow automatic skill execution. Any UIs created through Lua scripts will still require human interaction to use.

---

I'm cautiously excited about LUA coming to LOTRO, but I had to comment on the above quote.

Macro != Bot

Anyone who has used macros in WoW knows full well that:

• You can't use WoW macros to create a bot (that takes more sophisticated software)
• Every single macro "will still require human interaction to use", aka a key press/mouse click

I don't believe that /assist, the idea of having a /focus target, or the ability to choose the rank of heal cast based on whether Shift is being held down (man that would save me so much Quickslot room!) is gamebreaking. I can't even make simple RP emotes that I could in WoW!

Macros are not gamebreaking and aren't bots. I think Blizzard did an admirable job in making a macro system worth using while limiting it so it didn't result in Bad Things(tm). I wish Turbine would take things beyond the extremely limited functionality they currently have.

(The reason I say I'm cautiously excited about LUA in LOTRO is because I've experienced first hand how mods like Auctioneer can adversely affect the economy. There are some mods that I don't want to see in LOTRO.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thoroval

I'm cautiously excited about LUA coming to LOTRO, but I had to comment on the above quote.

Macro != Bot

Anyone who has used macros in WoW knows full well that:

• You can't use WoW macros to create a bot (that takes more sophisticated software)
• Every single macro "will still require human interaction to use", aka a key press/mouse click

I don't believe that /assist, the idea of having a /focus target, or the ability to choose the rank of heal cast based on whether Shift is being held down (man that would save me so much Quickslot room!) is gamebreaking. I can't even make simple RP emotes that I could in WoW!

Macros are not gamebreaking and aren't bots. I think Blizzard did an admirable job in making a macro system worth using while limiting it so it didn't result in Bad Things(tm). I wish Turbine would take things beyond the extremely limited functionality they currently have.

(The reason I say I'm cautiously excited about LUA in LOTRO is because I've experienced first hand how mods like Auctioneer can adversely affect the economy. There are some mods that I don't want to see in LOTRO.)

---

I thought this current implementation (no macros allowed) was a good place to "draw the line"..
However, You think it should be drawn on the other side of macros, but still prevent things like bots that can script/scan, like auctioneer. Seems hard to accomplish both simultaneously..

Ok, but where in macros do you draw the line. At some point, the macros get pretty technical(macroing a series of macros to perform heals based on cooldown timers, targets, etc., aka Dumb bot scripts), and not having a highly regarded/required for X raid macro could be a negative thing for a pug player...
What I mean is, I think it's much easier to draw the line where they have it right now. Maybe. Um...citation needed..lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Narrel

To answer your question I'll give you an interesting information tidbit of the day: Lua as it was intentionally named isn't actually an acronym or abbreviation; it is a noun. According to the creators of the Lua scripting language, it is a Portuguese word meaning the moon (which also explains their logo that resembles the moon orbiting the Earth). So there you have it =).

Edit: Blast! This is what I get for getting distracted while writing a post: Fredelas beat me to the punch =(.

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Actually I'm glad you answered and confirmed her explaination.

I kinda thought that maybe the word had a different meaning than what Fredelas was offering. You confirmed....Thank you both!

So Lua is a scripting language so named by the creators.

Call me cautiously optimistic. As someone who is not a huge fan of the current UI as a whole, I'm wondering how difficult it will be to change. As someone who's never used LUA before, is it easy enough to pick up or will I just be stuck waiting until someone else makes something close to what I want?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ShinryuLOTR

Call me cautiously optimistic. As someone who is not a huge fan of the current UI as a whole, I'm wondering how difficult it will be to change. As someone who's never used LUA before, is it easy enough to pick up or will I just be stuck waiting until someone else makes something close to what I want?

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It's a programming language... so that would depend on how skilled of a programmer you are.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aleczander

I thought this current implementation (no macros allowed) was a good place to "draw the line"..
However, You think it should be drawn on the other side of macros, but still prevent things like bots that can script/scan, like auctioneer. Seems hard to accomplish both simultaneously..

Ok, but where in macros do you draw the line. At some point, the macros get pretty technical(macroing a series of macros to perform heals based on cooldown timers, targets, etc., aka Dumb bot scripts), and not having a highly regarded/required for X raid macro could be a negative thing for a pug player...
What I mean is, I think it's much easier to draw the line where they have it right now. Maybe. Um...citation needed..lol

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Let me start by stressing I'm in no way advocating, nor would I find acceptable, any system that allowed more than one in game "attack" per player input (keyboard press/mouse click). WoW macros don't allow it and it shouldn't be allowed here. However, I don't think that automating things such as targeting or sending text to FS/Raid channels, etc. is an issue. I don't think Turbine has to have as robust a system as WoW, but some expansion would be most welcome.

Look at this nearly 3 year old example. To me it's perfectly fine if Turbine expanded the functionality to allow the following:

• /alias add ;meztarget /cast Riddle /f -=[ Mezzing ;target ]=-

One keypress/mouse click results in one in game "attack", a Riddle. The text sent to Fellowship Chat is just automated. It allows the word to get out without stepping all over anyone else talking in voice chat.

As a mage in WoW I did some simple macros that determined whether I was in a Raid or a Party and would announce in the appropriate channel that I had polymorphed a target and what that target was. The macro also used a different polymorph spell (sheep, pig, turtle) depending on whether I held down nothing, Shift, or Ctrl when cast. It was still one keypress, one "attack".

I also had a very simple macro on every character I played that would target my questing partner (by name) and then /follow'd them.

• /target <playername>; /follow

As simple as that is, it apparently can't even be done in LOTRO. That's all the functionality I'm asking for. I'm not asking for C here. I could probably get what I wanted by simply purchasing certain Logitech input devices and using those (I've read Turbine has previously stated those are fine to use as long as it doesn't result in a hands-off, AFK kind of play), but I'd rather have the functionality in game and under Turbine's control.

Regarding Auctioneer, etc. the thing is mods don't use macros. Honestly, I was rather surprised to hear Turbine is adding LUA. Considering macro limitations, I figured Turbine would add additional macro functionality way before they added other LUA/mod support.

Finally, while I was often omitted from groups (raids and even regular instance pugs) in WoW due to not having a particular mod installed, I was never even questioned about having or not having any particular macros. They just aren't that powerful.

Anyways, my feedback to Turbine is expand the current macro capability, even if only a little bit at a time.

Regarding macros and targeting, you can do the following:

/follow ;target

You have to select the person/mob to follow first, but the click on the shortcut does the rest.

And you likely know this, but for others, to add it to your shortcut bar:

/shortcut ## /follow ;target

Where ## is the quickslot number you want it to be (1-12 = first bar, 13-24 second, through 72 for 6th). I usually keep 1 slot empty at 72 and put a shortcut there, then move it to where I want it.

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On topic - I am excited about the Lua scripting, both to try my hand at programming my own things and to see what others come up with. As a fairly avid user of the UI skinning, I'm really curious to see where this goes, especially if you put the two together.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iracham

It's a programming language... so that would depend on how skilled of a programmer you are.

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Well, that clears it up, thanks. :) I wasn't sure if it was a more visual system or a text based one. I have done some programming before so I'll have to see it up close then.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ShinryuLOTR

Well, that clears it up, thanks. :) I wasn't sure if it was a more visual system or a text based one. I have done some programming before so I'll have to see it up close then.

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Lua is kinda "Visual Basic-ish" at least in terms of "wordiness". Using extra words such as "then" or "end" instead of brackets - might make it actually easier to learn/read for the novice.

The only thing I found confusing about it at first was the whole table stack thing.

Oh and you start a new code block by way of indentation instead of using a '{' or a 'begin'.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by atimes

Oh and you start a new code block by way of indentation instead of using a '{' or a 'begin'.

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This statement isn't true. If you are interested in learning more about Lua, then I suggest you visit the homepage, http://www.lua.org/home.html. The About link has a very good overview.

Regards,

Brad

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia

Lua is kinda "Visual Basic-ish" at least in terms of "wordiness". Using extra words such as "then" or "end" instead of brackets - might make it actually easier to learn/read for the novice.

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Phew...I'm a FORTRAN and Visual Basic programmer...all those languages that require punctuation drive me nuts! Counting brackets is for the birds. :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by b-morgan

This statement isn't true. If you are interested in learning more about Lua, then I suggest you visit the homepage, http://www.lua.org/home.html. The About link has a very good overview.

Regards,

Brad

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Has it changed from this then?

Code:

---

local i = 1
  while a[i] do
    print(a[i])
    i = i + 1
  end

---

as opposed to the more "traditional" style of

Code:

---

local i = 1

  while a[i] do
  {
    print(a[i])
    i = i + 1
  }

---

Because with my (limited) Lua experience that is how you branched because '{' was reserved for tables.

First, I agree go to the LUA site to look up how the code work's.

Second LUA is more akin to C code, and if you do any coding these days it's not in notepad but in a editor that uses color syntax highlighting and code formatting.

I use either GVim (Windows or Linux, same GVim) or Notepad++ (Windows notepad replacement)

The type of code where you use indentation is python and LUA is not python in nature.

Something else, seems a few people don't like auctioneer in WoW. Consider that a lot of addons in WoW are more or less information gathering and displaying addons, auctioneer is not a bot nor does it give anyone a unfair advantage. But instead will show the AH in a more easier to use Interface. giving one a better access to the information present in the AH and the abilities to look at and manipulate that info in a easy to use manner. If you think the scan feature it uses is bad consider what it actually does, it simply a method to cache the pricing of items for easy reference to it's history, if you read the auctioneer Dev pages you will understand that a lot of business financial math went into the back end in a effort to understand the ebb and flow of the AH market place.

Some people just love to play the market (Must have a copy Ferengi Rules Of Acquisition handy) and that is the game they enjoy.

The current AH in LOTRO I think really need's a bit of a overhaul, I still think the auction/selling board you put up in the EQ2 (In your house) is the best.

I would wish for a longer auction period myself.

As they stated, not everyone is 100% happy with all UI elements and LUA gives the end user a ability to customize the UI the way they find the game most comfortable and that makes it more attractive to more players.

LUA is a interesting language to learn but what info the LOTRO Dev's expose in the UI will be key, since they are a lot of very creative programmers out there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by atimes

Has it changed from this then?

Code:

---

local i = 1
  while a[i] do
    print(a[i])
    i = i + 1
  end

---

as opposed to the more "traditional" style of

Code:

---

local i = 1

  while a[i] do
  {
    print(a[i])
    i = i + 1
  }

---

Because with my (limited) Lua experience that is how you branched because '{' was reserved for tables.

---

The snippet you show can be done without white space

Code:

---

local i = 1
while a[i] do
print(a[i])
i = i + 1
end

---

Will work but is not pretty, remember that white space in this language is a lot like C code and is for human readability.

Another thing to remember is that LUA, in the way WoW uses it and I suspect that LOTRO will use it, is not a compiled language and it behaves just like a shell script would in Bash for example. It is why when you look at addons in WoW (The code) you tend to have all functions at the top.

Indentation is what usually will screw up a C/C++ coder who starts to learn Python.

C and other languages that use ';' for the end of code lines, it is used by the compiler when it turns the code into object form. C for example will strip out all white space the is not explicitly inside quotes or () before it does starts to actually compile the code.

EDIT: One quick note, the ';' can be used like in C but is optional. Just checked the LUA Manual.

WTB ... Buff Bar that can actually be read easily! It's always astounded me that the mail alerts get a decent sized icon, but if I want to see what buffs I have on I need to squint at the bottom of my unit frame to look at them.

Oh for some decent buff bars, cooldown timers, action/button bars and clean unit frames WITHOUT PORTRAITS. I swear, it will be heaven. ;) :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wmerkens

Something else, seems a few people don't like auctioneer in WoW. Consider that a lot of addons in WoW are more or less information gathering and displaying addons, auctioneer is not a bot nor does it give anyone a unfair advantage.

---

I'd like to explain my view of Auctioneer. First, I know it's not a bot. I used to use it a TON in WoW, loved it in fact, and I know plenty of folks who made lots of gold using it. (The AH WAS the game for a couple of them.) I was fine with that. I believe in a free market economy.

However, what I discovered though years of Auctioneer use is it often helps keep prices unnaturally inflated. For example, I recall a patch that took some spells that used to only be instance dropped books and put them on class trainers. Six months after this patch, I checked prices on the AH (the books still dropped in instances as before). The book prices were still sky high even though the spells could just be purchased from the trainers for next to nothing! (Think LOTRO Legendary trait books. They still drop in instances, but are also on class trainers.)

I then started checking a whole list of items that were obsolete or easily farmable, some even soloable, for example stuff from level 50 instances. Many of the items were still just ridiculously priced. If that was happening for that many specific items, what was happening with everyday consummables? Were they actually artificially inflated as well?

Why was this happening? My theory is that many folks using Auctioneer had no idea about real markets and simply listed items at Auctioneer's recommended price. It didn't matter that they were using months old, obsolete scan data. This resulted in more recent scans still showing stupidly high prices. It just perpetuated the problem.

I won't go into cases were I've seen folks manipulate the market for certain items by posting/buying items in a manner intended to manipulate Auctioneer.

I think the bad outweighs the good in this particular case, but I'm not going to jump up and down in dismay if an Auctioneer-like mod comes to LOTRO. I just recommend against it. I've watched the LOTRO market fluctuate in realistic ways that I've never seen in WoW which always seemed stuck on highway robbery.

I do agree that the LOTRO AH is in severe need of an overhaul.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thoroval

I then started checking a whole list of items that were obsolete or easily farmable, some even soloable, for example stuff from level 50 instances. Many of the items were still just ridiculously priced. If that was happening for that many specific items, what was happening with everyday consummables? Were they actually artificially inflated as well?

Why was this happening? My theory is that many folks using Auctioneer had no idea about real markets and simply listed items at Auctioneer's recommended price.

---

For low level farmable materials, I think it's not the case. As someone who does go out and gather this stuff in the games (LotRO and WoW), it really is a case of supplying the market where no-one else can be bothered to gather it. People when they get to high levels and have lots of cash are happier to folk out the "jingling-stuff" for materials than go out and collect it themselves. Simple.

That and it gives alts are bit of a boost that was not available back in the early days of the game.

I know that's off topic .... but I don't think you can blame Auctioneer for that. It's market forces.

Quote:

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I do agree that the LOTRO AH is in severe need of an overhaul.

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If the community can develop a better AH and mail interface, I'll be ecstatic!

@ Narrel...

please oh please tell me this lua script will allow the interface skinners to change the mouse icon???

:D

as long as there is no "Gearscore" addon then im happy :D

I'm gonna put my vote in for an Auctioneer-like Add-on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Syce

as long as there is no "Gearscore" addon then im happy :D

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User interface only, no Gearscore, good. Hopefully not down the road to meters, either. I'd like to see the LotRO auction house overhauled in itself, not reliant on addons, but that's not a huge thing...

The simple implementation is a very big step towards more universal usability, so thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Darej

@ Narrel...

please oh please tell me this lua script will allow the interface skinners to change the mouse icon???

:D

---

Not right now I'm afraid but keep in mind our goal is to continue to grow the API in the future so I wouldn't rule that out for the future.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wmerkens

Second LUA is more akin to C code, and if you do any coding these days it's not in notepad but in a editor that uses color syntax highlighting and code formatting.

---

What is this? Maybe YOU don't - but even us employed in a 'coding' field still use it. I'm a software engineer by trade and do web design for the 'extra buck' and notepad is still the simplest thing to use for 'quick changes'. Color coding only helps with very very long syntax that has multiple changes throughout.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Starrywisdom

What is this? Maybe YOU don't - but even us employed in a 'coding' field still use it. I'm a software engineer by trade and do web design for the 'extra buck' and notepad is still the simplest thing to use for 'quick changes'. Color coding only helps with very very long syntax that has multiple changes throughout.

---

The original person was commenting on how to keep all the indents or brackets in code clean syntactically.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sonsy

Phew...I'm a FORTRAN and Visual Basic programmer...all those languages that require punctuation drive me nuts! Counting brackets is for the birds. :p

---

Notepad might be good for a quick fix, but a more powerful editor will win hand's down in any coding, be it web or application code in whatever language you want to use.

In notepad++ I really like line folding for hiding function blocks that are distracting, I believe Vim will do the same and of course notepad cannot do that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Narrel

Not right now I'm afraid but keep in mind our goal is to continue to grow the API in the future so I wouldn't rule that out for the future.

---

It's nice to hear that alteration of the mouse pointer for more visibility is even a remote possibility. Thanks for posting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trilwych

Hopefully not down the road to meters, either.

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What is CScript (or whatever it's name is) if it isn't a damage meter?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Narrel

Not right now I'm afraid but keep in mind our goal is to continue to grow the API in the future so I wouldn't rule that out for the future.

---

This should be given a higher priority and I don't mean as part of LUA. Not everyone has perfect eyesight and that mouse pointer is way too easily lost on screen. A friend of mine tried LOTRO but left due to issues like this. Someone else I know struggles all the time with the mouse and other screen elements.

Quite honestly LOTRO is terrible at helping when it comes to folks who have less than perfect vision whether it's color blindness or small degrees of uncorrectable vision.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thoroval

This should be given a higher priority and I don't mean as part of LUA. Not everyone has perfect eyesight and that mouse pointer is way too easily lost on screen. A friend of mine tried LOTRO but left due to issues like this. Someone else I know struggles all the time with the mouse and other screen elements.

Quite honestly LOTRO is terrible at helping when it comes to folks who have less than perfect vision whether it's color blindness or small degrees of uncorrectable vision.

---

QFT

@Narrel...is there anyway you all can bumo this up on the to-do list?

:D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Narrel

Not right now I'm afraid but keep in mind our goal is to continue to grow the API in the future so I wouldn't rule that out for the future.

---

The mouse icon really should be a part of the skin. If nothing else at least let us change the color of it to something that stands out.

Something like the dice drop down over in DDO.

Mouse Icon: Default, Red, Yellow, Green, Neon Purple, etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cedwin

The mouse icon really should be a part of the skin. If nothing else at least let us change the color of it to something that stands out.

Something like the dice drop down over in DDO.

Mouse Icon: Default, Red, Yellow, Green, Neon Purple, etc.

---

aye..would be awesome to reskin it to match the various themse out there...

heck id be satisfied being able to make it a color you would not normally see in game.

:D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Narrel

Not right now I'm afraid but keep in mind our goal is to continue to grow the API in the future so I wouldn't rule that out for the future.

---

Can we change the size and/or color of it?

I've been asking about this since SoA beta and it would be awesome if this was made to happen at some point.


Thx

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thoroval

I'm cautiously excited about LUA coming to LOTRO, but I had to comment on the above quote.

Macro != Bot

Anyone who has used macros in WoW knows full well that:

• You can't use WoW macros to create a bot (that takes more sophisticated software)
• Every single macro "will still require human interaction to use", aka a key press/mouse click

I don't believe that /assist, the idea of having a /focus target, or the ability to choose the rank of heal cast based on whether Shift is being held down (man that would save me so much Quickslot room!) is gamebreaking. I can't even make simple RP emotes that I could in WoW!

---

Actually there is a somewhat healthy outbreak of botters in battlegrounds recently emerged and stated as using sophisticated macros. One youtube video points out this fact point by point through visual experimentation with a known botter. The bot /follows then /targets then /asserts faction, and then /determines outcome - all while following a path in a huge circle around the battleground. These macros are so well thought out that it was virtually impossible for the tester/guy showing us people exploiting, that he couldn't even lose the bots as ghosts. He was a stealth character too, and the bot still picked him up.

Quote:

---

Macros are not gamebreaking and aren't bots. I think Blizzard did an admirable job in making a macro system worth using while limiting it so it didn't result in Bad Things(tm). I wish Turbine would take things beyond the extremely limited functionality they currently have.

(The reason I say I'm cautiously excited about LUA in LOTRO is because I've experienced first hand how mods like Auctioneer can adversely affect the economy. There are some mods that I don't want to see in LOTRO.)

---

As long as there is a proper limit on the depth LUA can reach beyond UI, there should be no issue of botting or LUA exploitation. As of the past 5-6 months, WoW has shown that it can be done and in one youtube video, of a 10 v 10 match of WSG, 5 bots were discovered by this druid. So its getting worse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by johnflesh

Actually there is a somewhat healthy outbreak of botters in battlegrounds recently emerged and stated as using sophisticated macros. One youtube video points out this fact point by point through visual experimentation with a known botter. The bot /follows then /targets then /asserts faction, and then /determines outcome - all while following a path in a huge circle around the battleground. These macros are so well thought out that it was virtually impossible for the tester/guy showing us people exploiting, that he couldn't even lose the bots as ghosts. He was a stealth character too, and the bot still picked him up.



As long as there is a proper limit on the depth LUA can reach beyond UI, there should be no issue of botting or LUA exploitation. As of the past 5-6 months, WoW has shown that it can be done and in one youtube video, of a 10 v 10 match of WSG, 5 bots were discovered by this druid. So its getting worse.

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If true, and I don't doubt you (I haven't played WoW in over a year) then Blizzard needs to close the loopholes. I'm sure they will. I find it interesting that it's taken folks this long to come up with these macros though. It apparently isn't easy and they're probably exploiting flaws in the system.

It appears (I don't know for sure) that Turbine is being pretty conservative and cautious with LUA. From what I've heard regarding their past experience with AC bots, I'm not surprised that they're being cautious. I applaud them for their caution. I don't want bots and I don't want gamebreaking mods.

All I'm asking for is the same approach with a decent macro system. Sure, there's some risk and they'll need to keep an eye on things. But there's risk to me every time I drive down the road. Some idiot may run a red light and t-bone me. That doesn't mean I sit at home in fear. I drive defensively and with necessary caution. When it comes to macros, Turbine is just sitting at home.

I'd just love to be able to surface the clock (I tend to stay up WAY too late) or perhaps a better indicator for who is talking in group.
I think this may be a nice benefit once implemented.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wilredoc

I'd just love to be able to surface the clock (I tend to stay up WAY too late) or perhaps a better indicator for who is talking in group.
I think this may be a nice benefit once implemented.

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Front what has already been announced in this thread, I think you will find that both of these should be easily accomplished if Lua scripting is included in the final release. It sounds like authors may be working on these kinds of data presentation plugins already.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wmerkens

The snippet you show can be done without white space

Code:

---

local i = 1
while a[i] do
print(a[i])
i = i + 1
end

---

Will work but is not pretty, remember that white space in this language is a lot like C code and is for human readability.

Another thing to remember is that LUA, in the way WoW uses it and I suspect that LOTRO will use it, is not a compiled language and it behaves just like a shell script would in Bash for example. It is why when you look at addons in WoW (The code) you tend to have all functions at the top.

Indentation is what usually will screw up a C/C++ coder who starts to learn Python.

C and other languages that use ';' for the end of code lines, it is used by the compiler when it turns the code into object form. C for example will strip out all white space the is not explicitly inside quotes or () before it does starts to actually compile the code.

EDIT: One quick note, the ';' can be used like in C but is optional. Just checked the LUA Manual.

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Yes, but his is far more readable.

I have no problem with the idea, as long as it is available through the game, and not an add on as I used in AC. I must say though the add ons in AC were well done for the most part, and even some of the Kin bots were very useful. I am apposed to the automated ones that allow you to kill while not at the key board.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wmerkens

Second LUA is more akin to C code, and if you do any coding these days it's not in notepad but in a editor that uses color syntax highlighting and code formatting.

---

akin to C? in which way? Even JavaScript is more like C in syntax, structure and operators than Lua is. If anything Lua is closer to older "acronym soup" languages.

Will plugins like grid and clique (from WoW) be available?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thoroval

If true, and I don't doubt you (I haven't played WoW in over a year) then Blizzard needs to close the loopholes. I'm sure they will. I find it interesting that it's taken folks this long to come up with these macros though. It apparently isn't easy and they're probably exploiting flaws in the system.

---

Actually they have been around for ages, they are just becoming more widespread. You can by various 'tools' such as macros/bots/etc for quite a bit of money from varying wesbites, most of these 'tools' stay pretty secret and the common gamer won't know the difference.

Tons of games have issues like this, and it takes a very long time for remedies to be found as it takes a while till the tools become mainstream enough to draw attention(usually by someone by the 'tool' and distributing it to kinmates,friends, etc rather then keeping it to themselves[like the tool creator says to]. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if there were multiple 3rd party tools for LoTRO that people don't know about(Mining/Foresting bots, fishing bots, etc). I think the only common known bot in existence for LOTRO now is the PvMP multiaccount botter.

Until more people get their hands on tools they will stay relatively hidden, but it doesn't take long after a games release(usually first 3 months) for their to be rudimentary tools out there to circumvent game technology.

Quote:

---

akin to C? in which way? Even JavaScript is more like C in syntax, structure and operators than Lua is. If anything Lua is closer to older "acronym soup" languages.

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I wouldn't bother trying to argue with him - I don't think he's got certifications in any languages or technologies. The way he speaks makes it sound more 'script-kiddie' then anything else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starrywisdom

Actually they have been around for ages, they are just becoming more widespread. You can by various 'tools' such as macros/bots/etc for quite a bit of money from varying wesbites, most of these 'tools' stay pretty secret and the common gamer won't know the difference.

Tons of games have issues like this, and it takes a very long time for remedies to be found as it takes a while till the tools become mainstream enough to draw attention(usually by someone by the 'tool' and distributing it to kinmates,friends, etc rather then keeping it to themselves[like the tool creator says to]. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if there were multiple 3rd party tools for LoTRO that people don't know about(Mining/Foresting bots, fishing bots, etc). I think the only common known bot in existence for LOTRO now is the PvMP multiaccount botter.

Until more people get their hands on tools they will stay relatively hidden, but it doesn't take long after a games release(usually first 3 months) for their to be rudimentary tools out there to circumvent game technology.

---

I wouldn't doubt it - LotRO is no different than any other Windows game using DirectX/DirectInput.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starrywisdom

I wouldn't bother trying to argue with him - I don't think he's got certifications in any languages or technologies. The way he speaks makes it sound more 'script-kiddie' then anything else.

---

well, it wouldn't come as much of a surprise - he did sound like he was making some interesting assumptions, but it was more curiosity than actually trying to argue. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia

I wouldn't doubt it - LotRO is no different than any other Windows game using DirectX/DirectInput.



well, it wouldn't come as much of a surprise - he did sound like he was making some interesting assumptions, but it was more curiosity than actually trying to argue. :)

---

Who Me?

If your referring to my referring to LUA as being having a C language flavor, to me it looked a lot like the flow of C in a bash like shell scripting layout. For me one look and I could figure out the flow of the code, but I do not program addons I just occasionally feel need to fix something and it was easy to figure a lot of it out.

I was also simply answering the question about whether indentations were needed, in that sense I was showing just like C white space was not needed but was there to make code readable.


I have to laugh at being referred to as a script kiddie, I began programming back in 1981 with applesoft/commodore pet basic, the IBM PC did not exist for me yet. I got my start in C with Borland C 1.0 probably about mid 80's and at school no one was teaching anything but basic or pascal.

So I predate script kiddies by a long shot, predate certifications by a long shot but I guess that just makes me old by a long shot. hehe :-)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wmerkens

Who Me?

If your referring to my referring to LUA as being having a C language flavor, to me it looked a lot like the flow of C in a bash like shell scripting layout. For me one look and I could figure out the flow of the code, but I do not program addons I just occasionally feel need to fix something and it was easy to figure a lot of it out.

I was also simply answering the question about whether indentations were needed, in that sense I was showing just like C white space was not needed but was there to make code readable.


I have to laugh at being referred to as a script kiddie, I began programming back in 1981 with applesoft/commodore pet basic, the IBM PC did not exist for me yet. I got my start in C with Borland C 1.0 probably about mid 80's and at school no one was teaching anything but basic or pascal.

So I predate script kiddies by a long shot, predate certifications by a long shot but I guess that just makes me old by a long shot. hehe :-)

---

Like I said, I was merely curious - I'm not the type to make assumptions. At any rate, thanks for the clarification on what you meant - as I was having trouble figuring out how Lua could be like C. :p

So, anyone have any ideas as to what plugins they will create, once we can start creating Lua scripts for LOTRO?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RingOfFire

So, anyone have any ideas as to what plugins they will create, once we can start creating Lua scripts for LOTRO?

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I don't know about anyone else but I would be willing to learn Lua and the Turbine LotRO API if it means I can make a drop down menu for my hunter ports and a similar type of interface for my lore-master pets.

I like the idea of Lua being used for scripting since it's a publicly available language, but I'm not too stoked about learning another language, especially if it means I have to use Notepad++ to write code. I'm old and lazy and like to use Visual Studio or Netbeans for everything. Still the strong desire for a ports and pets menu far outweighs my laziness.

This is good stuff. There will be Lua add-ons in my future:

1) MailBlaster - Mail multiple items to the same recipient at once. Doesn't change the LOTRO mail functionality which limits one item per mail. But dragging 12 items into the MailBlaster window will automatically mail the 12 items in 12 separate mails to the recipient. All you have to do is compose one mail. It also keeps recent mail recipients in an easy to use and intuitive 'cloud' interface. click on a name, drag items or click to put them in the MailBlaster window, and send BOOM you're done.

2) Looter - Specify which items to loot by setting filters by name, or by level, or by value. Quickly auto loot corpses and Looter will only pick up what you want to pick up.

3) PackMan - Designate which pack an item goes into when you pick it up, or unequip it. Keep all your weapons in one pack. Keep potions in another. Keep part of a pack open so that you always have room. Lock items to a certain pack slot, so that no other items will be placed there and the slot is reserved for that one designated item.

an adaption for a ps2 controller or xbox controller -

hunting for which icon to hit now is a pain on the keyboard

would be nice to kick back on my couch and play on the big screen.

So do we have an answer to the questions about API access to other peoples gear information (leading to gearscore type mods) or to other gameplay information such as accumulated threat (leading to group wide visibility of player's threat)? I would not like either of these but can't see the answer. Has it been slipped? Is it no, never OR yes, someday OR yes, for sure?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by findorin-gilrain

So do we have an answer to the questions about API access to other peoples gear information (leading to gearscore type mods) or to other gameplay information such as accumulated threat (leading to group wide visibility of player's threat)? I would not like either of these but can't see the answer. Has it been slipped? Is it no, never OR yes, someday OR yes, for sure?

---

Narrel answered that in the first post of this thread. The list of APIs he posted is what Lua scripting is restricted to. Therefore, if the APIs you mention are not there, then the answer is no.

Also, I do not believe anything which gives a player an advantage over other players will be put in to the game.

- - - - -

I have some ideas of my own when it comes to Lua scripting.

Journal - Making the assumption that basic UI element creation means that external information can be fed to the UI itself, this would allow text files to be written from and displayed ingame (to that player only), along with some basic formatting and marks (to distinguish between where a page ends prematurely, for an example). This would allow some sort of "journaling" ingame, which could serve a variety of purposes, ranging from casual players to roleplayers to raiders, and likely many in between.

Backpack - This would turn all five bags into one single "backpack", which shows 25 slots at once (instead of 15 for each bag). A simple scrollbar on the side would allow all 75 slots to be scrolled through. Personally, I would also change the icon for this "backpack" to actually look like one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RingOfFire

Narrel answered that in the first post of this thread. The list of APIs he posted is what Lua scripting is restricted to. Therefore, if the APIs you mention are not there, then the answer is no.

Also, I do not believe anything which gives a player an advantage over other players will be put in to the game.

---

Not sure he did really. Whatever the "current intention" I suppose I think it is always possible until categorically ruled out. I hope there is nothing more than nice UI improvements.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chazcon

This is good stuff. There will be Lua add-ons in my future:

1) MailBlaster - Mail multiple items to the same recipient at once. Doesn't change the LOTRO mail functionality which limits one item per mail. But dragging 12 items into the MailBlaster window will automatically mail the 12 items in 12 separate mails to the recipient. All you have to do is compose one mail. It also keeps recent mail recipients in an easy to use and intuitive 'cloud' interface. click on a name, drag items or click to put them in the MailBlaster window, and send BOOM you're done.

2) Looter - Specify which items to loot by setting filters by name, or by level, or by value. Quickly auto loot corpses and Looter will only pick up what you want to pick up.

3) PackMan - Designate which pack an item goes into when you pick it up, or unequip it. Keep all your weapons in one pack. Keep potions in another. Keep part of a pack open so that you always have room. Lock items to a certain pack slot, so that no other items will be placed there and the slot is reserved for that one designated item.

---

AWESOME!!! I want all of these. :)

Hopefully they will be possible through Lua.

We will see. I guarantee you that the programmer cadre will stretch the envelope.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starrywisdom

I think the only common known bot in existence for LOTRO now is the PvMP multiaccount botter.

---

Wait, what? I'm going to need more information.

Ok, now that NDA has been lifted, if this makes it into the release (and many of us are really hoping it does), some of the things that have been done so far:

A scrollable menu with all of your port locations (very nice for hunters)
A scrollable menu box with all of your mounts easily accessible
The One Bag- putting all 5 of your bags into one
A couple of different ways of changing the buffs/ debuff's icons to make their easier to see
Other new skinning options
Adding another quickbar for more slots that appear only in combat

There's a lot of things that players are doing with this that will address many of the players UI concerns. It won't do any macros, but it gives more flexibility. It's exciting to see what people are doing with it in the early stages.

Now that the NDA is lifted, what kind of limitations besides no macros are we seeing with Lua? I know it's been said before that macros won't work and you can't trigger a skill/etc. What are the other limitations. If anyone has used Lua with WoW and tried it in beta here, maybe you can give some ideas of what is possible versus what isn't?

For example, can we add more information to tooltips and track stats such as number of kills to put into the tooltips for a mob?

Can we add other things to tooltips such as what drops certain items when viewing the item's tooltip, or average AH price for the item, or a list of your characters who have the item, or various other types of additional information? I'm sure a lot could be tracked, but can we make it visible in the game? Or maybe it can't be tracked with the current Lua implentation?

Is it possible with the current mount listing to have a random mount summoned from it, or does that fall into the no skill use limitation?

Can the world map have tooltips or other information added to it? For example, could a method to add custom notes to it be scripted? Or could someone put in tooltips on each stable on the map that tells you the location name?

What about tracking things like DPS? Is that possible even if only for yourself?

And, the difficult question considering how much work is involved... do you think it's possible to add games like they did in WoW (Peggle and Bejeweled for example) that could be played while waiting on your group to assemble or while on a long horse ride that isn't swift travel?

These are just quick examples that I can think of. Any other comments on how it works and what is or isn't possible would be greatly appreciated.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Riamus

Now that the NDA is lifted, what kind of limitations besides no macros are we seeing with Lua? I know it's been said before that macros won't work and you can't trigger a skill/etc. What are the other limitations. If anyone has used Lua with WoW and tried it in beta here, maybe you can give some ideas of what is possible versus what isn't?

---

Well, I can't compare to WoW because I never played it. But I can say the LUA scripting is very limited. Here are some of the items we get access to:

1. Some basic character data, like morale, power and effects (buffs/debuffs)
2. Combat status
3. Over-ride the default vitals display with a custom one.
4. Can check what is in your character's inventory.
5. Create new quickslots

We don't have access to a lot of stuff, like no access to what skills your character has, no access to the chat window data.

Really, at the current status, LUA scripting in LOTRO is mostly about changing how the UI looks, and not much more than that.

Things are pretty limited right now, though they have slowly opened up stuff.

Currently we are seeing addons like HUDS, Bar Managers, Buff/Debuff Bars, etc. The scripters have no access to Target, Other Player etc.

There is a Proof of Concept DPS meter floating around off site, it originally came with an .exe and pretty much was asked to be removed, development is still going on though.

LotRO Interface is working on a module for Minion to facilitate updating.

There is a mod for Wardens and Gambits but I'm not familiar with it,

A hunter Travel Panel and an LM Pet Carousel neither of which I've tried but have been well recieved.

Some timers/clocks/ingame notepad type mods.

Tooltips just recently opened up so they are just starting work along those lines.

There is a RatingsBuster-but-not type of mod thet lets you see what the ratings on a piece of gear will translate into percentages, I havent tried it yet though.

No Auctioneer type mods.

I'm not a scripter but thats what I'm seeing and understanding from the discussions. The stuff that's being done is very nice.

As others have said, the API itself is pretty uninspiring right now. It certainly has a ton of potential, which I've been working on improving what I can - but I obviously can't provide more "hooks" into the game itself than Turbine supplies. So, essentially I've been working on visual/utility things like Animation, Timer, and various standard UI elements.

I've also been working on a sort of Heads-up Display (HUD) (mentioned above), named Palantir. It's currently in the middle of a rewrite which will take it to the very edge of what's currently possible (that includes both standard and custom classes). So hopefully the latest version will be finished by the time everybody can check out the plugins for themselves.

The lifting of the NDA has admittedly taken me by surprise, and regrettably I don't have enough time today in order to do a big write-up about it, so that will have to wait until later.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia

The lifting of the NDA has admittedly taken me by surprise, and regrettably I don't have enough time today in order to do a big write-up about it, so that will have to wait until later.

---

I'm certainly looking forward to your write up. As deep as you've been in the process and as much as I've seen from you on the beta forums, I know you'll give a well rounded and balanced view of beta and what's coming.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gedachtnis

No Auctioneer type mods.

---

*sniff* :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia

As others have said, the API itself is pretty uninspiring right now. It certainly has a ton of potential, ...

---

Quoted for truth. We don't have access to the Character Panel (think: gearscore), we don't have access to player's vaults (think: alt inventory manager), and we don't have access to item or skill tooltips (think: show %s instead of ratings). We don't have access to other players' vitals or buffs/debuffs.

We CAN access the 5 inventory backpacks. We can also create new tooltips and quickslot bars. So, we're working on ways to do as much as we can with the current API.


Things I am doing:
(1) I've created a really simple Mouse-Finder. Hold down ctrl+alt+shift and it makes your mouse more visible. (afaik, increasing mouse size is not possible)

(2) In-Game time to Real Life time converter. This one is almost complete, just need to make a few tweaks. It does what the name implies. It tells you, for example, Day-time: Dawn (ingame) will occur at 7:05pm EST

(3) Rating to Percentage converter. Don't let your imagination run wild, there's a lot of stuff I cannot do with the current API. But, it can help you make sense of what those ratings actually mean. I still have A LOT of work to do with this one.


Lots of pep have a lot of cool Plugins available and in-development. There are some very cool Effects displays (buffs/debuffs, your char only), and from personal experience, Palantir HUD is pretty cool. There's a hunter-port quickslot plugin. There's a Warden Gambit helper plugin (works very well). There's a Calendar, a Clock, a notepad (my raid leader is gonna love the notepad), FX plugin, personal Buff/Debuff monitors.... lots of cool stuff from a lot of talented programmers
.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ScrappyTheGreat

Things I am doing:
(1) I've created a really simple Mouse-Finder. Hold down ctrl+alt+shift and it makes your mouse more visible. (afaik, increasing mouse size is not possible)

---

Sweet. I can't tell you how many times I've lost that thing in the midst of high-intensity battles. This sounds like it will help.

This new Lua capability is going to be awesome. And hopefully the best ideas/mods will be incorporated into the main game, as they often are in WoW.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FoxFire

Sweet. I can't tell you how many times I've lost that thing in the midst of high-intensity battles. This sounds like it will help.

This new Lua capability is going to be awesome. And hopefully the best ideas/mods will be incorporated into the main game, as they often are in WoW.

---

As they get more and more used to the LUA, I'm sure they'll open up some other options and abilities with it as well. But I think it's actually one area where they won't necessarily incorporate good add ons into the game, but rather see it as a way to let the players actually do the work of putting things in game that they would like to have, but may not have the time and resources to actually do (like the mounts and ports menus)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Riamus

For example, can we add more information to tooltips and track stats such as number of kills to put into the tooltips for a mob?

---

No and no.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Riamus

Can we add other things to tooltips such as what drops certain items when viewing the item's tooltip, or average AH price for the item, or a list of your characters who have the item, or various other types of additional information?

---

No, no, no, no.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Riamus

Can the world map have tooltips or other information added to it? For example, could a method to add custom notes to it be scripted? Or could someone put in tooltips on each stable on the map that tells you the location name?

---

No. No. No -- although the ability to "skin the map" and put in some sort of tooltip to tell you the stable names, since that's really confusing when you go into a new area, was one of the first things that I suggested in the API plugin.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Riamus

What about tracking things like DPS? Is that possible even if only for yourself?

---

No. No -- although CStats already does this. Search the forums to find a download link since the original creator got all pissy and not only left LotRO but deleted the Google Code repository.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Riamus

do you think it's possible to add games like they did in WoW (Peggle and Bejeweled for example) that could be played while waiting on your group to assemble or while on a long horse ride that isn't swift travel?

---

No.

Ok, on a totally separate note, I really don't see why people are getting all hot and bothered about a gearscore plugin. Hello, by parsing my.lotro.com data we can already generate a gearscore for you! Sheesh. You'd think the people angrily disclaiming the possibility of a gearscore plugin had never heard of my.lotro.com and the fact that all characters are visible there and that we can parse the data and run figures with your armor that's depicted there. Come on, guys, stop getting all upset that the current limited API might some day allow duplication of something that can already be done (and in game to boot, with the in-game browser that can be redirected to any other site).

The only thing I'm hoping for is a plugin or UI change that will allow me to get rid of the lotro store ad in the UI. I don't like ads in games I play, especially in games where I am a paying subscriber.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by elderlygamer

The only thing I'm hoping for is a plugin or UI change that will allow me to get rid of the lotro store ad in the UI. I don't like ads in games I play, especially in games where I am a paying subscriber.

---

Well...I don't think Lua is going to be able to do anything for you in that case. I'm sure once the skin pack for the new UI hits, there will be a "classic" bar on sites like LotROInterface, but the store button on the main bar (right of the bags) will probably be the only thing that can be changed. "Unlock"/Visit Store buttons on the other hand, I doubt will ever be able to be removed - especially the big one on the character select screen.

That aside, I think your future enjoyment will depend on your state of mind - just like people who hate PvMP are likely to "ignore" the Ettenmoors stable location, or ignore the 3%/5% experience gain from it, so will it be with the store buttons, and TP awards.

And honestly, most of the time you won't even see it as "ads" for the lotro store. It's normally just a button, and if you're keeping your sub up then most of the places that there might be a button won't even show up for you. You're not going to have the quest packs to unlock, or traits, or things like that, so none of those are going to be showing you the "unlock" buttons.

The main places you will see the store button is on the login screen, and a button on your main ui taskbar that is easy to ignore. Otherwise if you're a VIP you will not see the buttons that often, and probably won't even notice it many times when you do.

Quite frankly, if I can get a decent countdown timer bars for buffs and debuffs, a hud (like WoW's IceHud), clean unit frames and configurable button bars ... I'll be a very, very happy player!

One of Blizzard's keys to success was realising that a allowing players to fully configure their interface gives them a sense of ownership and creation; they can't create in the world, they can at least create how the look at the world ("This is my UI. Isn't it cool! See all the things it shows me!") If Turbine can mimic that, they are on a winner.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sirwillow

And honestly, most of the time you won't even see it as "ads" for the lotro store. It's normally just a button, and if you're keeping your sub up then most of the places that there might be a button won't even show up for you. You're not going to have the quest packs to unlock, or traits, or things like that, so none of those are going to be showing you the "unlock" buttons.

The main places you will see the store button is on the login screen, and a button on your main ui taskbar that is easy to ignore. Otherwise if you're a VIP you will not see the buttons that often, and probably won't even notice it many times when you do.

---

Actually I will see that button a lot, more than the others, as it's right by the area where I've been keeping a bag open for the 3+ years I've been playing the game. I do see it as being an "ad". I realize others might not see it that way, and that's fine. But from my perspective it is an ad that points to the f2p store.

I have nothing against Turbine going f2p. IMO it's smart move. I just don't like anything in the UI that isn't needed, and imo a button (ad) that points to the store isn't needed. I'll just have to hope the UI modders can remove it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by elderlygamer

Actually I will see that button a lot, more than the others, as it's right by the area where I've been keeping a bag open for the 3+ years I've been playing the game. <snip> I'll just have to hope the UI modders can remove it.

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You may have it easy then. Just park the bag over the button and you won't see it anymore. :D

And I'm sure the UI skinners will have skins out pretty quickly that have the button hidden, moved, or redone. There is also an option in the UI panel, as I remember, to hide the button also.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lichbane

Quite frankly, if I can get a decent countdown timer bars for buffs and debuffs, a hud (like WoW's IceHud), clean unit frames and configurable button bars ... I'll be a very, very happy player!

One of Blizzard's keys to success was realising that a allowing players to fully configure their interface gives them a sense of ownership and creation; they can't create in the world, they can at least create how the look at the world ("This is my UI. Isn't it cool! See all the things it shows me!") If Turbine can mimic that, they are on a winner.

---

Hey Lich,

D_U's Palantir is much like IceHud, well except the LotRO API doesn't allow alot of the functions yet.

It's a pretty basic HUD with standard Power/Morale Bars (Curved only) which have a Wide/Narrow space setting. There is no way currently to add pets/targets etc. But I will say if you miss using a HUD, Palantir is great. It can display numbers/percents/or both, with color changes as the bars empty, it also has a very nice Debuff Indicator Bar that comes in very handy.

There are 2 (I think only 2 right now) Buff Bars, FX and BuffBars. Both are very good.

FX is bit more basic currently whereas BuffBars is a bit more advanced. If you're familiar with Elkos Buff Bars ( I think thats what they're called), which uses a 3 column dynamic bar that grows up and down with Icon/Text Name/ Timer, they are both very similar.

Both currently only support one window, so no splitting buffs/debuffs across the screen. Both are worth checking out.

Not alot going on with unit frames yet, there is a default Turbine plugin that can change the Player Frame. Really not overly impressive but then I think it's more for the authors to be able to see what can be done.

There is a Quickslot manager, well several actually but one seems more like what you have in mind, TonicBars, which is very reminiscent of Bartender. It's still missing a few features, like scaling and locking the slots, but I belive these may be on the To Do list. It lets you create any number of bars with 1-50 slots each, all movable, Vert or Horiz. very sweet.

There is also a OneBag mod that will be very familiar if you used it in WoW.

I loved using an add-on for one bag in WoW, so that is awesome news. I'm more excited about the possibilities here than I am about any of the other changes, including the new area.

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Originally Posted by Gedachtnis

D_U's Palantir is much like IceHud, well except the LotRO API doesn't allow alot of the functions yet.

It's a pretty basic HUD with standard Power/Morale Bars (Curved only) which have a Wide/Narrow space setting. There is no way currently to add pets/targets etc. But I will say if you miss using a HUD, Palantir is great. It can display numbers/percents/or both, with color changes as the bars empty, it also has a very nice Debuff Indicator Bar that comes in very handy.

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The lack of target and pet info could be a bit of a problem. The main use of the hud for me is to quickly compare my health (or pet's) deprication to that of my target, to give me an idea of it's fight or flight. Hopefully the target and pet info will open up as the API does.

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Originally Posted by Gedachtnis

There are 2 (I think only 2 right now) Buff Bars, FX and BuffBars. Both are very good.

FX is bit more basic currently whereas BuffBars is a bit more advanced. If you're familiar with Elkos Buff Bars ( I think thats what they're called), which uses a 3 column dynamic bar that grows up and down with Icon/Text Name/ Timer, they are both very similar.

Both currently only support one window, so no splitting buffs/debuffs across the screen. Both are worth checking out.

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I'm a big fan of Elk's Buff Bars, so this sounds very hopeful. :)

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Originally Posted by Gedachtnis

Not alot going on with unit frames yet, there is a default Turbine plugin that can change the Player Frame. Really not overly impressive but then I think it's more for the authors to be able to see what can be done.

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If it can get rid of portraits ... then that's a step in hte right direction for me. They are clunky and take up more space than they need to.

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Originally Posted by Gedachtnis

There is a Quickslot manager, well several actually but one seems more like what you have in mind, TonicBars, which is very reminiscent of Bartender. It's still missing a few features, like scaling and locking the slots, but I belive these may be on the To Do list. It lets you create any number of bars with 1-50 slots each, all movable, Vert or Horiz. very sweet.

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WOOT!!!!!!! (*does a little happy dance!!*)

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Originally Posted by Gedachtnis

There is also a OneBag mod that will be very familiar if you used it in WoW.

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I love the one bag concept. It's still early days, but have a look at ArkInventory. It puts certain categories of items in "virtual bags", like grouping together all junk, crafting mats, tools and so on. Very configurable and convenient.

I'm looking forward to what the community can produce. I'm a big fan of addons. I don't think that addons are the great evil that some people make them out to be. I do think that when people use them blindly and without intelligent consideration (like saying "You shall have a GS of 5.5k or YOU SHALL NOT PASS!") they are just being idiotic and I'd rather not be in that person's raid.

That said, things like DPS meters can be very useful to improve your output ... but you still need to know WHEN to DPS and when to let the tank have aggro.

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Originally Posted by Gedachtnis

Hey Lich,

D_U's Palantir is much like IceHud, well except the LotRO API doesn't allow alot of the functions yet.

It's a pretty basic HUD with standard Power/Morale Bars (Curved only) which have a Wide/Narrow space setting. There is no way currently to add pets/targets etc. But I will say if you miss using a HUD, Palantir is great. It can display numbers/percents/or both, with color changes as the bars empty, it also has a very nice Debuff Indicator Bar that comes in very handy.

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Well, to be completely honest - the color change thing is in the upcomming release. However, unless "fall" or open beta turns out to be the middle of August, I'll be just nitpicking for all intents and purposes. :p

However, I am happy that I can start posting photos and possibly videos of some of the things I've been blabbing about - a picture worth a thousand words and all lol

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Originally Posted by Lichbane

The lack of target and pet info could be a bit of a problem. The main use of the hud for me is to quickly compare my health (or pet's) deprication to that of my target, to give me an idea of it's fight or flight. Hopefully the target and pet info will open up as the API does.

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You can feel assured that I plan on continuing to keep this updated so it takes advantage of every last available API feature - as soon as possible after it's been made available. All this stuff you mention (and a lot more than that) is all stuff I really want to add to it. Although I probably could make my own thread about it now on the live forums, here's a quick rundown of the features that will exist by live at the latest, if not before open beta:

• Morale/Power bars (duh.)
• Debuff indicator showing whether you have any of the 4 main curable debuffs
• An option to "stock" the indicator with pots/skills to allow you to click on the indicator to cure.
• Indicator will show how many pots you have, and keep track of (user supplied -at this time) cooldown times.
• Text will be able to be positioned at 8 different locations around each bar.
• Text has multiple display options, including cur/max, percentage, current, and percentage with cur/max
• Bars can be spaced freely (horizontally)
• The entire HUD can be positioned as you would any other UI element (complete with the traditional "box" and behaviors)
• Palantir will hide itself when the user hides their UI.
• Bars will support any color (standard green/blue by default) as well as two user-specified colors for specific percentages. For instance, you could set 50% as yellow, and 25% as red, and the bars will fade from one color to the next.
• Bars can also be set to that the colors don't "fade" between the points.
• Bars will also support two percentage-based animation effects, including type (pulse, flash, etc) and speed.

In addition I plan on increasing the choices of bar shapes, and/or provide a method to add in custom bar shapes at some point in the near future (i.e. not next version). It is currently being rewritten to provide a more "modular" structure, to easily accommodate any API additions with a minimum of time/effort.

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Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia

<wonderful stuff>

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If you can do this, then you will have earned one massive fan! I love the sound of this.

Now that the NDA is lifted could somebody official like Narrel post all the development guidelines etc. to everybody? Since we're not allowed to copy or link anything from NDA content you need to do it since nobody will write down the whole documentation again in his own words.

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Originally Posted by Adalas

Now that the NDA is lifted could somebody official like Narrel post all the development guidelines etc. to everybody? Since we're not allowed to copy or link anything from NDA content you need to do it since nobody will write down the whole documentation again in his own words.

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Well, I'm not "official" but I tried to break it down here: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=348063

I can't obviously post the API documentation itself, but that thread should answer most questions, and I'll be happy to answer any others you might have.

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Originally Posted by Banaticus

<Snip lots of saying no to a previous poster...>

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This post was mostly right - but I did write a DPS tracker for the player (although I haven't tested if it still works - it is kind of a 'hack' - Update: kinda still works if every 15 seconds is good enough dps updates).

Also I think that writing a bejewelled or tic-tac-toe style single player mini-game is entirely feasible. It would require a bit more work than my timer plugin, but not that much.

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Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia

I can't obviously post the API documentation itself, but that thread should answer most questions, and I'll be happy to answer any others you might have.

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I'm in the beta myself, I don't have any problems, thanks. But I'm sure there are people who want to develop LUA addons who aren't in the beta. And they need the API documentation, not a summary.
But by the way, great work, I really like your LUA posts.

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Originally Posted by Adalas

I'm in the beta myself, I don't have any problems, thanks. But I'm sure there are people who want to develop LUA addons who aren't in the beta. And they need the API documentation, not a summary.
But by the way, great work, I really like your LUA posts.

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The API has changed subtly with each new beta release so far. If someone attempted to author a plugin based on the "current" documentation, it wouldn't even work. (The documentation hasn't been updated since Beta 2 a month or so ago, despite several feature-breaking changes having been made.) Not to mention the author would be unable to test the plugin.

There are now ways to get a guaranteed beta invite (fileplanet, I believe) if authors are itching to contribute.

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Originally Posted by Adalas

I'm in the beta myself, I don't have any problems, thanks. But I'm sure there are people who want to develop LUA addons who aren't in the beta. And they need the API documentation, not a summary.
But by the way, great work, I really like your LUA posts.

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Unfortunately, while the NDA has been lifted, that does not apply to the API documentation itself. It is still "Beta Only", and has the following at the bottom of the page:

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This documentation is provided for Beta testing only.
Not for redistribution.

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So, I'm not about to take any chances of sharing this documentation outside of beta until that part is removed.

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Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia

So, I'm not about to take any chances of sharing this documentation outside of beta until that part is removed.

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I know the problems and I appreciate the work of all those working on the subject. That's why I was asking someone official to publish the documents since we are not allowed to do this. But with the release coming ahead (now with the NDA lifted I expect the PAX date) we will see what happens.

With folks as dedicated as DU and others at the helm of such LUA projects, things are looking really exciting.

Nice job guys! :)

I predict VERY good things for LotRO's future.

:)

Couple questions for those that know a hell alot more about this stuff then I do (Looks at Utopia)

-Threat meters
-DPS meters
-SKL/DKP add-ons
-Gear score
-Boss skill timers
-Player skill UI add-ons that show cooldowns on the icon vs hovering over

With the boss skill timers, as an example: Fellbeast flies in the air every 60s. He does do the same 'emote' in /say everytime. Fellbeast targets player with eye every 30s no name but scripted 'emote' in /say.
Any way to have all that /say stuff streamlined and on timer in a neat little box in the corner?

Player skill timers speaks for istelf really, but having a simple 10s, 9s, ect on the skill itself instead of me hovering over the skill looking at the tooltip display and looking for the cooldown.


Thx guys.

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Originally Posted by Grampsaz

Couple questions for those that know a hell alot more about this stuff then I do (Looks at Utopia)

-Threat meters
-DPS meters
-SKL/DKP add-ons
-Gear score
-Boss skill timers
-Player skill UI add-ons that show cooldowns on the icon vs hovering over

With the boss skill timers, as an example: Fellbeast flies in the air every 60s. He does do the same 'emote' in /say everytime. Fellbeast targets player with eye every 30s no name but scripted 'emote' in /say.
Any way to have all that /say stuff streamlined and on timer in a neat little box in the corner?

Player skill timers speaks for istelf really, but having a simple 10s, 9s, ect on the skill itself instead of me hovering over the skill looking at the tooltip display and looking for the cooldown.


Thx guys.

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Pretty much not possible to all of these, with the exception of DKP. You would not be able to have an automated DKP type tool, for example something that would automatically know who attended an event, etc...

But, you could have a tool that someone could use in game to manually track that type of stuff.

The main reason these are not possible, is we have no access to any of the chat window data. We also do not have access to very much info about what a character is actually doing at any given time, like executing skills, etc...

Hope that helps.

Edit: We also do not have access to the items a character is wearing.

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Originally Posted by D.H1cks

Pretty much not possible to all of these, with the exception of DKP. You would not be able to have an automated DKP type tool, for example something that would automatically know who attended an event, etc...

But, you could have a tool that someone could use in game to manually track that type of stuff.

The main reason these are not possible, is we have no access to any of the chat window data. We also do not have access to very much info about what a character is actually doing at any given time, like executing skills, etc...

Hope that helps.

Edit: We also do not have access to the items a character is wearing.

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That does help, thank you for the info!

So there is very little to get excited about then :D (For raiders)

Though the mouse finder would be nice, only if the color/size could be adjusted. That does me in more then anything.


With the ability to log chat, no way to incorporate the chat logs into a timer for skills ect?

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Originally Posted by Grampsaz

With the ability to log chat, no way to incorporate the chat logs into a timer for skills ect?

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Not in real time. There is a deliberate delay between calling the only 'File Read' function we have, and when the data actually gets loaded.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Grampsaz

That does help, thank you for the info!

So there is very little to get excited about then :D (For raiders)

Though the mouse finder would be nice, only if the color/size could be adjusted. That does me in more then anything.


With the ability to log chat, no way to incorporate the chat logs into a timer for skills ect?

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Scrappy created a rudimentary mouse finder, and I suggested someone create a plugin that does a single color repeating pulse whenever the mouse stays in the same position for so long. However, I haven't had a chance to do it, and to my knowledge nobody else has tried something like it (or better) yet. In that case both color and size could be adjusted easily enough.

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Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia

Scrappy created a rudimentary mouse finder, and I suggested someone create a plugin that does a single color repeating pulse whenever the mouse stays in the same position for so long. However, I haven't had a chance to do it, and to my knowledge nobody else has tried something like it (or better) yet. In that case both color and size could be adjusted easily enough.

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Turbine wont do it, been asking for it since SoA beta. If someone ever found the time to do such a thing, I know several players would use it and be greatly appreciative of such work!

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Originally Posted by Grampsaz

Turbine wont do it, been asking for it since SoA beta. If someone ever found the time to do such a thing, I know several players would use it and be greatly appreciative of such work!

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Well, if I don't see anybody jumping on it by the time I release the next version of the plugin I'm working on, I'll go ahead and do it. It shouldn't take very long to do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Grampsaz

Couple questions for those that know a hell alot more about this stuff then I do (Looks at Utopia)

-Threat meters
-DPS meters
-Gear score
-Boss skill timers
-Player skill UI add-ons that show cooldowns on the icon vs hovering over

With the boss skill timers, as an example: Fellbeast flies in the air every 60s. He does do the same 'emote' in /say everytime. Fellbeast targets player with eye every 30s no name but scripted 'emote' in /say.
Any way to have all that /say stuff streamlined and on timer in a neat little box in the corner?

Player skill timers speaks for istelf really, but having a simple 10s, 9s, ect on the skill itself instead of me hovering over the skill looking at the tooltip display and looking for the cooldown.


Thx guys.

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Alot of this type of stuff would kill alot of the fun, its one of the main reasons i dont play wow, i got sic of having to keep up with mods just to raid. Gear score is the biggest joke anyway, things like threat meters would take away the risk of being in SS as a hunter, you would know when to ease up so the tank doesnt lose aggro etc. knowing exactly when the boss is going to do a special attack well in advance also kinda wrecks alot of the fun of playing, having thiings flash when there off cd etc takes away all the skill or having a good rotation and watching multiple buffs/debuffs. I do hope they keep all this scripting stuff to a minimun.