Questions Over Lore

Hello all! First off I want to let you all know that I have read the books, but its been a LONG time and I never finished the Silmarillion.

Any-who...

How come Gandalf loses to the Balrog in Moria? The elven king in the Silmarillion cuts down many of them in his rampage into Angband, and Gandalf is a Miar(Spelling)!

Also, it seems like in LOTR, the older you are, the more powerful you are. Hence the Wizards/Sauron/ Galadriel being beacons of hope/dread. Is this an adequate way of looking at things?

I know that in the extended version of RotK, Gandalf gets his butt handed to him by the Witch-king, which is just not right, hence why they took it out :P. BUT I have heard that Gandalf was just as powerful as Sauron, he just didn't really have the confidence to do it.... What do you guys think?

Why is Saruman more powerful than Gandalf in FotR? I don't know who Saruman's Valar is, but I know Gandalf's is Manwe (The leader of the Valar). Is it because Gandalf has physically lived on Middle-Earth for less time than the other wizards?

Thats it.... for now I'm sure more will come, though so subscribe! :D

New Question:
How come Sauruman's orcs are digging the Uruk-hai like Lurtz out of the Mud? I thought that Uruk-hai were corrupted men, and orcs corrupted elves.

My personal thoughts are that Gandalf didn't just want to be the "hero". He wasn't in Middle Earth to save it himself, he was there to guide the free peoples to victory. That's why he didn't "take on" anything in particular himself, but instead rallied the troops.

I'd guess that Saruman beats Gandalf in FotR because Saruman has allied with Sauron which gives him confidence/strength. However Sauron is definitely "stronger" than Gandalf.

I'm not sure which "elven king" you are talking about, I didn't think that many Balrogs died, and the Balrogs were essentially corrupted Maiar so (roughly) on an even level with Gandalf.

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Originally Posted by someenigma

I'm not sure which "elven king" you are talking about, I didn't think that many Balrogs died, and the Balrogs were essentially corrupted Maiar so (roughly) on an even level with Gandalf.

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I had thought that the Balrogs were demons morgoth either "Found" or created?

I also thought that each Valar only had a few Maiar each (There are only 5 wizards), were there many of them?

I don't know the Elven King's name, but I want to say his daughter was taken prisoner or something happened to his kin by Morgoth, he made a valiant last stand at the gates of Angband and I think the King was even able to wound Morgoth. Although he very well might have been cutting through dragons instead of Balrogs, I just remember being astounded at his strength after reading it.

The wizards al came in the same time to Middle-Earth and gandalf lost the battle because then he was still Gandalf the Grey but later he is more powerful. And the lost to the Witch King was just because witch king is more powerful than him!

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Originally Posted by jakobjaks

The wizards al came in the same time to Middle-Earth and gandalf lost the battle because then he was still Gandalf the Grey but later he is more powerful. And the lost to the Witch King was just because witch king is more powerful than him!

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That's my question, Gandalf is Maiar to the most powerful Valar, even if he "The Grey".
And no, the Witch King was just a corrupted man from a fraction of power from Sauron. Gandalf was something closer to an angel so he was extremely powerful. Gandalf would have turned him into a paper weight, which is why the two never meet in the books. That's why they also took that scene out of the extended version of RotK.

Take what I say with a grain of salt...it's been a while for me too...

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How come Gandalf loses to the Balrog in Moria?

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Didn't Gandalf win? I always assumed that, if on an equal field (ie not plummeting to ones doom), Gandalf would have wiped the floor with the balrog...I'm thinking Gandalf was so spent after the fall and in being such close proximity to a foe of such immense physical strength that he just didn't have the strength to carry on

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Also, it seems like in LOTR, the older you are, the more powerful you are. Hence the Wizards/Sauron/ Galadriel being beacons of hope/dread. Is this an adequate way of looking at things?

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I think it's more to do with WHAT you are. And the 'whats' are usually immortal or extremely long lived.

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Why is Saruman more powerful than Gandalf in FotR? I don't know who Saruman's Valar is, but I know Gandalf's is Manwe (The leader of the Valar). Is it because Gandalf has physically lived on Middle-Earth for less time than the other wizards?

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I always thought that Saruman was Gandalf's senior in all things...hence a more powerful wizard.

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Originally Posted by Lothic

Take what I say with a grain of salt...it's been a while for me too...



Didn't Gandalf win? I always assumed that, if on an equal field (ie not plummeting to ones doom), Gandalf would have wiped the floor with the balrog...I'm thinking Gandalf was so spent after the fall and in being such close proximity to a foe of such immense physical strength that he just didn't have the strength to carry on



I think it's more to do with WHAT you are. And the 'whats' are usually immortal or extremely long lived.



I always thought that Saruman was Gandalf's senior in all things...hence a more powerful wizard.

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Thanks for clearing that up! Not even wizards can make for a soft landing after falling many many leagues :P

All it ever calls Sauron is that he was one of Morgoths lieutenant, I think actually his primary Lieutenant, but that would definitely make sense. I always thought that the Maiars' power were directly related to their "boss". and Morgoth was extremely powerful.

Sauron started out as a Maia of Aule, as was Saruman.

The Balrogs were corrupted Maia as well.

Saruman was the Chief of the Istari (Wizards), even Gandalf states this.

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Originally Posted by amien

How come Gandalf loses to the Balrog in Moria?

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Huh? He defeats the Balrog, although he himself is practically defeated in the effort. According to the lotr wiki, Tolkien's son says there are never more than seven balrog.

A couple of the coolest parts of this game are seeing the results of that battle in a couple locations of Moria.

It also says Gandalf is a Maiar chosen by the Valar to aid people of Middle Earth.

Balrog were Maiar seduced by Morgroth. Meanwhile Morgroth was apparently the mightiest of the Ainur. Considering 14 Valar were opposing him, it seems he was mighty indeed.

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BUT I have heard that Gandalf was just as powerful as Sauron, he just didn't really have the confidence to do it.... What do you guys think?

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Define power. Sauron as the lieutenant of Morgroth, had been there longer, build up power longer, had a more powerful leader. Gandalf and Radaghast and Saruman and the others were not sent to directly confront Sauron, a pointless endeavor as the races would then be powerless against future foes/uprisings/returns. They were sent to shepherd the races in their own endeavors to grow and flourish and turn aside the tide of evil. Meanwhile, they were all out of their element, cast in corporeal bodies, in a foreign world, with limited tools, whereas Sauron had been amassing and exploiting power for a long time.

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Why is Saruman more powerful than Gandalf in FotR?

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What makes you believe Saruman is more powerful? They have different powers/roles. Saruman's strength is his influence with words and guile. He was sent as the chief of the five Istari, and had studied Sauron more. Apparently Saruman's name means "man of skill".

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How come Sauruman's orcs are digging the Uruk-hai like Lurtz out of the Mud? I thought that Uruk-hai were corrupted men, and orcs corrupted elves.

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http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Uruk-hai

They are orcs on steroids, and orcs are a corruption of elves.

BTW, have you heard of the LotR wiki? http://lotr.wikia.com ;-)


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"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave

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Originally Posted by amien

I don't know the Elven King's name, but I want to say his daughter was taken prisoner or something happened to his kin by Morgoth, he made a valiant last stand at the gates of Angband and I think the King was even able to wound Morgoth.

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The Elven King you're thinking of is Fingolfin. His daughter (Aredhel) had been dead for over a century at the time, so it had nothing to do with her, rather Fingolfin's rage and despair was triggered by the losses the Elves suffered in the Battle of Sudden Flame, which included his nephews, Aegnor and Angrod.

I always thought Gandalf was pretty gimp in terms of battle power, so he didnt take on 1 on 1 Saurun or Saruman and was struggling eith the balrog (and maybe teh witch king? I dont remember that from the books). His strength was as a stretegist, pulling all the strings and making sure people were at the right place at the right time, doing the right thing.

The Wizards were indeed powerful but they were forbidden from using their powers directly. They were sent to help, not to fight Sauron (which might have worked but the last time Valar waged war a good chunk of the continent sunk under the sea, they were not going to risk it again; plus it wouldn't help the people if you do everything for them).

It's worth mentioning that the Wizards are not some subspecies of Maiar, they were regular Maiar chosen by the Valar and then they've become Wizards, which is the name others gave them.

My understanding was the 5 wizards were sent to guide and motivate the free people of Middle Earth against Sauron. They were to do so without using force or overpowering people (so nerfed in a way). Saruman broke the rules when he tried to take dominion over men and had his power taken from him. Each wizard was a fraction of their true power as a Miar, the last time the valar got to heavily involved half the world sank into the ocean and they decided to not directly be involved again so sent the wizards as stated above.
The balrog was totally struck down while only Gandalf's mortal frame was broken.

As for which of the Istari(Maiar) belonged to which Valar - Saruman (and also Sauron's) Valar was Aule the Smith.

Gandalf was of Nienna, the Vala of Mercy.
and Radagast was of Yavanna, the Vala of Nature and animals.
Im not sure of the Blue Wizards but i think one of them at least was Manwe's.

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Originally Posted by SuaronTehMighty

I always thought Gandalf was pretty gimp in terms of battle power, so he didnt take on 1 on 1 Saurun or Saruman and was struggling eith the balrog (and maybe teh witch king? I dont remember that from the books). His strength was as a stretegist, pulling all the strings and making sure people were at the right place at the right time, doing the right thing.

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Gandalf, aka Olorin as his name was when he was a Maia, was the wisest Maia in the order of Manwe.....when Sauron spread his dominion over Middle Earth, 5 Maia were selected to gather the free people of middle earth together and rally and guide them against Sauron....BUT under one specific condition....they were not to engage Sauron directly in a battle of power.....under no circumstances.....and this is because, in earlier Ages when the Valar directly interfered in the matters of mortals, some really bad incidents happened.....so the Valar no longer want to get involved directly.....otherwise it wouldve taken Tulkas or any Vala just about a minute to come to Middle Earth, whup Sauron's butt and destroy him.....but they dint want to do it....But even despite that, they did want to help the free people's against Sauron.....hence the 5 Istari were sent to Middle Earth.....and amongst them Gandalf was the most unwilling one, he considered his skill mostly in wisdom than anything else.....

to the OP :

Balrogs are Maiar who were servants of Morgoth, just as Sauron was....so they were as strong as Gandalf if not more....hence the almost close fight between Gandalf and the Balrog in Moria in which Gandalf died because of a DoT after he defeated the Balrog :o

And as you say Gandalf was of the order of Manwe, leader of the valar, true.....but you forget that Sauron, was the servant of Morgoth, aka Melkor, the most powerful of the Ainur, who fought 14 Vala.....hence Sauron is bound to be more powerful.....

Also the elven king you mentioned, Fingolfin, as well as many others of the Eldar were so strong because in earlier days, they were taught and had direct contact with the Valar.....they had lived in Aman (the Blessed Realm) itself which gave them some really superior powers and skill....and they were not restrained like the Istari were in their actions.....hence he could face off against Morgoth, one of the strongest Ainur, and even wound him.....some even in the Third Age possessed immense power of that sort.....like Glorfindel, Elrond, Galadriel, Cirdan....not as much as Fingolfin ofcourse, but enough....

And its not exactly about how old one is, but rather it seems so because the oldest ones have lived in the Blessed Realm and whoever has done that, usually is pretty much very strong and skilled....hence its so that some of the oldest people in Middle Earth are also the strongest....Theyre beacons of hope in the way Frodo sees Glorfindel on the Ford of Bruinen......all else grows dim but Glorfindel looks like a shining figure.....so will the others.....

And the Gandalf - Witch King scene in the extended edition of RoTK is THE MOST lore breaking scene in the entire movies franchise imo.... If they had faced off, Gandalf couldve annihilated the Witch King, but then again, he was forbidden to battle Sauron directly, and facing off with his main Lieutenant would pretty much come under that....hence Tolkien has very smartly avoided that confrontation in the books... :)

And Saruman is Saruman the White, because he had been voted and chosen as the leader of the Council by all the Wise....he is not particularly stronger than Gandalf.....not by default anyways, but Saruman had studied the tactics and skills of the enemy itself, his affinity was more towards to powerful aspects of magic while Gandalf was more aligned towards knowledge and wisdom....

And finally, Saruman's Uruk Hai could slaughter the orcs from Moria because he had created a hybrid sort of orc.....being one of the Istari, he no doubt achieved further corruption by making a hybrid of men and orcs.....which were stronger than the original orcs who were merely corrupted elves.....Sauron had some really strong orcs in his service too....its not the orcs of Mordor that are shown to be the weaker ones in the book...its the orcs from Moria who had come to avenge their leader....they were the weak and cowardly lot.....Grishnakh's and Ugluk's band of Mordor and Isengard orcs respectively were the strongest in that group....

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Originally Posted by Areya121

As for which of the Istari(Maiar) belonged to which Valar - Saruman (and also Sauron's) Valar was Aule the Smith.

Gandalf was of Nienna, the Vala of Mercy.
and Radagast was of Yavanna, the Vala of Nature and animals.
Im not sure of the Blue Wizards but i think one of them at least was Manwe's.

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Gandalf lived in the tutelage and gardens of Nienna, but he was one of the people of Manwe.... :)

Gandalf himself said to Denethor that ".. one has come whom even I feared", referring to the Witch-King. I'm not saying that the WK had any chance to beat Gandalf, it's just that it would not have been an easy battle for Gandalf. Say, 4/5 the difficulty of the Balrog, since the WK also had his other Nazgul to aid him if he started losing. And 100k orcs. Even Wizards aren't immune to ZERG.

Glorfindel himself slew 3 Balrogs in the First Age. Chris Tolkien said that the Balrogs were in a pretty weak stage then, and Durin's Bane was a particularly strong Balrog by the Third Age.

Saruman was way more powerful than Gandalf, as Gandalf didn't have the symbolic power of the "leader" (And hence, couldn't throw Wizards out of the Order, break staffs, etc."

Uruks and Orcs are THE SAME... Saruman's Uruks were exceptionally powerful, that's all. Not all Orcs are corrupted Elves, there weren't many Elves to corrupt, you see. The first Orcs definitely were, but the rest diminished in power as they were "bred".

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Originally Posted by amien

Hello all! First off I want to let you all know that I have read the books, but its been a LONG time and I never finished the Silmarillion.

Any-who...

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First off, I'll mention that I haven't read anything but the OP, so someone else has likely already brought all this up.

The Istari (wizards) were sent in full mortal form for the very purpose of keeping them from getting a "god" mentality. They were vulnerable to mortal death.

Gandalf did not lose to the Balrog...he defeated the Balrog, but died in the process. He was sent back, however (still in mortal form.)

Saruman was the first of the Istari to come into Middle-earth and was made the head of the Order (as the White, he was the most powerful); however, when he corrupted (back before they drove Sauron out of Dol Guldur, contrary to what the Hobbit movie is going to portray), he actually began to weaken. Very likely, Gandalf could have actually defied Saruman rather than allow himself to be taken, but remember that Saruman also had vast numbers of Orcs at his disposal, and even Gandalf would not have been able to get through them all.

To put the power of certain creatures in perspective, when Gandalf escaped (who Saruman was actually holding for the Nazgûl), Saruman felt great terror, because he knew the Nine were more powerful than he was. In truth, the Ringwraiths (all nine together, not individually, as they had cumulatively increasing power) were more powerful than the Balrog.

Gandalf was not nearly as powerful as Sauron (at least not Istari form...in Valinor, in his native Maiar form, hevery likely he was.)

Oh, and by the way, 7 Balrogs (with Morgoth, and Gothmog probably) were enough to scare Ungoliant off. Hardly anything could scare Ungoliant, not even Morgoth himself.

Even though that doesn't sound as if they are extremely powerful, but remember: Ungoliant easily scared off Morgoth himself. She could easily beat Gandalf and Sauron; even the Valar can't do much against her.

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Originally Posted by Berephon

Saruman was the first of the Istari to come into Middle-earth and was made the head of the Order (as the White, he was the most powerful); however, when he corrupted (back before they drove Sauron out of Dol Guldur, contrary to what the Hobbit movie is going to portray), he actually began to weaken. Very likely, Gandalf could have actually defied Saruman rather than allow himself to be taken, but remember that Saruman also had vast numbers of Orcs at his disposal, and even Gandalf would not have been able to get through them all.

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Well remember that Morgoth decreased in power, not because of his corruption, but because he expended his personal power on his kingdom. Creating Dragons, or Uruk-hai, or creating rings of power, it does cost something. At the end, Morgoth was not the most powerful of the Valar, he had expended too much of his essence on his empire.

And that is just it, by putting his power into his army he can defeat Gandalf with his army, but in the end 1v1 he was no match for Gandalf.

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Originally Posted by amien

Also, it seems like in LOTR, the older you are, the more powerful you are. Hence the Wizards/Sauron/ Galadriel being beacons of hope/dread. Is this an adequate way of looking at things?

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It would be more accurate that the beings that came first started with more power. An important theme in LOTR is the fading of middle earth. Power in LOTR is finite, you only get so much and the more you use it the weaker you get. Morgoth was only defeated because he used too much of his power and finally became vulnerable to attack. In fact, one of the main reasons Sauron created the ring was to attempt to preserve his power in a way that it would not fade.

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How come Gandalf loses to the Balrog in Moria? The elven king in the Silmarillion cuts down many of them in his rampage into Angband, and Gandalf is a Miar(Spelling)!

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He doesn't lose. They kill each other, so it's a tie.
And if by the elven king you mean Feänor, he didn't cut them down, he just fought them for a while, and was in fact killed by them in the end.

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Also, it seems like in LOTR, the older you are, the more powerful you are. Hence the Wizards/Sauron/ Galadriel being beacons of hope/dread. Is this an adequate way of looking at things?

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It's not the older you are, the more powerful you are. It's just that the more powerful beings tend to either be semi-immortal (Sauron/Wizards) or simply survive longer (Galadriel), hence their age.

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I know that in the extended version of RotK, Gandalf gets his butt handed to him by the Witch-king, which is just not right, hence why they took it out :P. BUT I have heard that Gandalf was just as powerful as Sauron, he just didn't really have the confidence to do it.... What do you guys think?

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Gandalf was in fact more powerful than the Witch-king, MUCH more powerful. As Gandalf the Grey, he managed to fight the Witch-king and the 8 other Nazgûl all *at the same time*, stalling them for a whole night to give Aragorn and the Hobbits more time to travel without being chased. If he can fight all 9 of them as Gandalf the Grey and still win, imagine what he could do to to just 1 of them as Gandalf the White. Sauron would get 2 still-smoking Nazgûl boots sent back to him.

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Why is Saruman more powerful than Gandalf in FotR? I don't know who Saruman's Valar is, but I know Gandalf's is Manwe (The leader of the Valar). Is it because Gandalf has physically lived on Middle-Earth for less time than the other wizards?

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No, time has nothing to do with it.
When the Istari were sent to Middle-earth, they were given a mortal body and their power was greatly limited, because their mission was to defeat Sauron not by force, but by aiding the Free Peoples, giving them hope and uniting them. Saruman was chosen to be head of the Istari, and later to be head of White Council, giving him greater power than the others.
However, Galadriel, Cirdan and Elrond perceived Gandalf was the greater, and when he later died and was sent back to replace Saruman as The White, his power limitations seemed to have been lifted to some extent, making him more powerful than Saruman.

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New Question:
How come Sauruman's orcs are digging the Uruk-hai like Lurtz out of the Mud? I thought that Uruk-hai were corrupted men, and orcs corrupted elves.

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Never believe anything you see in Jackson's movies, they didn't follopw the books veyr well.
Orcs were indeed corrupted Elves. What Uruks were is still not certain, there were two main theories, that they were either a cross-breed of Orcs and Men, or Orcs that Sauron (and later Saruman) had been tinkering with to make them stronger.

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Originally Posted by Berephon

Gandalf was not nearly as powerful as Sauron (at least not Istari form...in Valinor, in his native Maiar form, hevery likely he was.)

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I do remember Tolkien saying that Olorin was the wisest of them all.
Plus, some other clues scathered around then to confirm the power of Olorin/Gandalf, such as: the episode of the ring of fire and the One ring (when he refuses it), the resurection by Illuvator himself, etc.

Olorin never real shows his true power, which I believe his greater than any being in Middle-Earth at that point. Including Sauron.

Thanks for the replies everyone!

Is it ever mentioned what happens to Ungoliant? Wasn't Shelob one of her daughters?

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Originally Posted by amien

Is it ever mentioned what happens to Ungoliant? Wasn't Shelob one of her daughters?

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Sort of, and yes.

When they arrived in Lammoth in Middle-earth, Ungoliant demanded the gems that Melkor had stolen from Formenos. She devoured them, and grew larger and darker, and she attacked Melkor when he refused to give her the Silmarils. Melkor's scream is what gave the area the name Lammoth, and when one screams, there is the voice of Melkor that echoes back from the surrounding hills. The immediate arrival of Balrogs freed Morgoth from the evil spider's webs during the Thieves' Quarrel. Driven off by the Balrogs, Ungoliant fled to Nan Dungortheb, where she bred with the creatures there to increase the evil and terror of the great spiders. The creatures that later infested the area were her surviving offspring and descendants, as was her daughter, Shelob, who dwelt on the borders of Mordor. It is said she later went far south, where legend has it, in her last hunger, she devoured herself.

lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Ungoliant

Also, feel free to come over to the Tolkein board here, they're wonderful about answering even my silly questions there. ;-)

I very much doubt that even all the 9 Nazgul together would be stronger than Gandalf...especially Gandalf the White...since he is a Maia (despite being in the mortal frame) AND he has Narya that Cirdan gave him....

The Nazgul were only wraiths and Glorfindel nor any of the high elves were afraid of them because as Legolas himself said, those who had lived in the Blessed Realm dint fear them (wraiths) and they had great power over both the Seen and the Unseen.....Gandalf would definitely count under more than just "lived" in the Blessed Realm.....The Nazgul's power is just so feared because its stems from Sauron himself....

But since no such standoff actually takes place in any of the books, there will never be conclusive evidence of the fact...although considering he fought off five Nazgul alone at night when they are strongest, when he was just Gandalf the Grey would atleast give some measure of his strength.....


Also about Ungoliant yeah.....she was exceptionally powerful....someone who can bring down the most powerful Vala like Melkor to the level of screaming for help, thats wickedly powerful.... :D

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Originally Posted by BirdofHermes

He doesn't lose. They kill each other, so it's a tie.
And if by the elven king you mean Feänor, he didn't cut them down, he just fought them for a while, and was in fact killed by them in the end.

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I think the OP meant Fingolfin who apparently did fight balrogs since he had sieged Angband and even wounded Morgoth seven times in a duel....even Morgoth feared him....

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Originally Posted by Haunt123

Glorfindel himself slew 3 Balrogs in the First Age. Chris Tolkien said that the Balrogs were in a pretty weak stage then, and Durin's Bane was a particularly strong Balrog by the Third Age.

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Glorfindel battled one Balrog during the escape from Gondolin and they both fell from the peak and died. As far as I know this was the only instance of an elf killing a Balrog.

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Originally Posted by Gui_Incognito

Glorfindel battled one Balrog during the escape from Gondolin and they both fell from the peak and died. As far as I know this was the only instance of an elf killing a Balrog.

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My bad, you're right.
But that's not the only instance: remember Ecthelion vs Gothmog.
Another question: Is Gandalf the Grey's power comparable to that of Fingon, Ecthelion, Finglofin etc.? Fingon and Ecthelion fought Gothmog, the mightiest of Balrogs. Fingolfin gave even Morgoth a good fight. Gandalf nearly died fighting one Balrog

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Originally Posted by Haunt123

My bad, you're right.
But that's not the only instance: remember Ecthelion vs Gothmog.
Another question: Is Gandalf the Grey's power comparable to that of Fingon, Ecthelion, Finglofin etc.? Fingon and Ecthelion fought Gothmog, the mightiest of Balrogs. Fingolfin gave even Morgoth a good fight. Gandalf nearly died fighting one Balrog

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You're right. Also interesting to note is that both Balrogs who died in fights with Elves died of falls and not due to any wounds they sustained.

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Originally Posted by silverblade5445

I very much doubt that even all the 9 Nazgul together would be stronger than Gandalf...especially Gandalf the White...since he is a Maia (despite being in the mortal frame) AND he has Narya that Cirdan gave him....

The Nazgul were only wraiths and Glorfindel nor any of the high elves were afraid of them because as Legolas himself said, those who had lived in the Blessed Realm dint fear them (wraiths) and they had great power over both the Seen and the Unseen.....Gandalf would definitely count under more than just "lived" in the Blessed Realm.....The Nazgul's power is just so feared because its stems from Sauron himself....

But since no such standoff actually takes place in any of the books, there will never be conclusive evidence of the fact...although considering he fought off five Nazgul alone at night when they are strongest, when he was just Gandalf the Grey would atleast give some measure of his strength.....

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The Nine could definitely not beat Gandalf, no matter what advantage they had. But Gandalf could have never been able to beat the Nine, like he beat the Balrog. I think that's what Berephon meant.

Also, we're looking at a limited number of Elven superheroes who didn't fear the Nazgul: Galadriel, Elrond, Glorfindel and Cirdan are all that come to mind. The thing is, they didn't fear the Nine, but by no means could they have beat the Nine.

The Witch-King of Angmar is not just any other Ringwraith, he brought down the North kingdom and ended the line of Kings of the South. Of course, he didn't do this by brute strength, but by cunning. Remember how Ar-pharazon and his army made Sauron's flee, and though Sauron had the Ring, he couldn't stand a chance? He utilized the greatest power the Ring gave him: Dominance over lesser minds. Combined with cunning.

1v1, Gandalf would have certainly beat the Witch-King. But in a realistic fight, who knows? The Nazgul led the armies of Mordor to destroy the greatest powers in Middle-Earth, you really can't underestimate his power.

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Originally Posted by Haunt123

The Nine could definitely not beat Gandalf, no matter what advantage they had. But Gandalf could have never been able to beat the Nine, like he beat the Balrog. I think that's what Berephon meant.

Also, we're looking at a limited number of Elven superheroes who didn't fear the Nazgul: Galadriel, Elrond, Glorfindel and Cirdan are all that come to mind. The thing is, they didn't fear the Nine, but by no means could they have beat the Nine.

The Witch-King of Angmar is not just any other Ringwraith, he brought down the North kingdom and ended the line of Kings of the South. Of course, he didn't do this by brute strength, but by cunning. Remember how Ar-pharazon and his army made Sauron's flee, and though Sauron had the Ring, he couldn't stand a chance? He utilized the greatest power the Ring gave him: Dominance over lesser minds. Combined with cunning.

1v1, Gandalf would have certainly beat the Witch-King. But in a realistic fight, who knows? The Nazgul led the armies of Mordor to destroy the greatest powers in Middle-Earth, you really can't underestimate his power.

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Yep definitely agreed there....some of the most powerful people in Middle Earth were also some of the most wise/cunning ones.....there'd be no saying what would happen in a true showdown...

Although since you mentioned the North kingdom, the North Kingdom lost to Angmar and the Witch King more because of its internal conflicts, carelessness and false sense of being impregnable than anything else....the Witch King very strategically used their weaknesses and brought down the great Kingdom of Arnor with some really brilliant tactics.... :) Plus an extremely potent sorceror he was even when he was alive.....not someone to underestimate for sure :D

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Originally Posted by silverblade5445

Plus an extremely potent sorceror he was even when he was alive.....not someone to underestimate for sure :D

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Though technically, he was already a ring wraith by then :)--if I remember correctly, the ring wraiths first appeared in the second age--and even took part in the battle of the last alliance. They went into hiding when Sauron was defeated.

Whoa, whoa, whoa...

It's good to remember that beyond what was published within the Professor's lifetime, little is really set in stone. JRRT's notes have been published, but if using them as a source, it is needed to anchor a specific time frame which to use, as he tended to revise the world. (On the online age, you might compare this to some playing LotRO on 2007 version of SoA and others on current - some things change, some things stay the same. Using lore based on the Book of Lost Tales would be about on the lines of finding Sierra design documents and hacking together Middle-earth Online.)

As for Balrogs, in very early versions of Fall of Gondolin the principal heroes do indeed kill lots. In the published Silmarillion the notes were rewritten by CJRT (with the assistance of Guy Gavriel Kay) from existing fragments, and in this version we do know for certain that two Balrogs die: Gothmog (taking Echtelion with it) and an unnamed Balrog (taking Glorfindel with it). Fëanor fought many Balrogs (as may have happened when Maedhros was captured), but casualties are only recorded on the Elven side. Fingolfin is not recorded fighting Balrogs, I believe - on his ride to duel Morgoth, everyone is reported to flee him, and even Morgoth came reluctantly to face him. (It is notable that Morgoth is, indeed, a coward, as he is the only of the Ainur that can be wounded permanently, if we trust apocryphal material - for others, the bodies are disposable.) Of the other First Age duels of note, we do know that Finrod dueled Sauron and was defeated, and that later Luthien managed to defeat Sauron together with Huan (who may be of the Maiar itself). Fingon managed to defend himself against a Balrog in Nirnaeth, but died when surrounded.

Of the Wizards: They were originally sent to Middle-earth as agents (as in actual secret agents, not as in James Bond movies), each for their own skills. Gandalf's main task would be rallying people, not to fight in person. Saruman, however, turned his skills into dominating others, and may have been otherwise greater in power (however that is measured) than Gandalf. It is notable that Gandalf's defeat is not complete: He lost his staff, but Saruman still failed to find out that Gandalf wore Narya. This may be oversight on the Professor's part - though my understanding, coloured by an old Finnish TV series, is that the confrontation between Gandalf the Grey and Saruman was more alike to a contest of wills, with Gandalf giving in, rather than a D&D style wizard duel. Alternatively, Saruman may still have wished to convert Gandalf to his cause, and thought that removing his staff from him would suffice to keep him imprisoned.

Naturally, for the specific case of LotRO, we do have Word-of-God also from the developers. (Berephon: No pressure.) Also possible future movie spoilers?

On the nature of magic in Middle-earth: Some old (homebrew) ruleset for Middle-earth magic had an explanation that I could subscribe to, but it likely doesn't have that much actual lore background. IIRC in those rules, 'power' from the Ainur was innately more powerful than Elvish 'power', which yet was more powerful than the Dead. The magicians in those rules 'borrowed' from one of these sources - with black magic being specific of gathering the essense Morgoth spread to the world. This wasn't strict ruleset, a spell cast with 'weaker' magic could be as powerful as one cast with 'stronger' type of magical pool, but required more effort. However, a ringless Wraith would, in these rules, be innately 'less powerful' than a High Elf of similar standing. This all is, as mentioned, most likely homebrew and also borrowed a lot from the Finnish mythology's concept of 'väki', roughly translated to 'folk' of different things (such as water, the dead, etc.) that could be bargained with to help with different things.

Thanks for the Wiki link! Its ALMOST as big of a timesink as Wookiepedia for me now. :P

Also on reading about Gandalf's ring:

"It is described as having the power to inspire others to resist tyranny, domination and despair"
What could the other rings do? I was told that elrond's "ring of Wind" is what caused the river to rise when the Nazgul tried to enter Imladris.


Also it's kind of ironic at what the Ring of Fire does, seeing as it's real purpose was for Sauron to take control of the bearer of it. :P

Also, what was Glorfindel (Or who ever the RK class was supposedly based off, he's near the last homely house in game, if you walk straight past the house and near the water fall.) The huge amount of hope he gives in-game tells me he's extremely old.

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Originally Posted by amien

Thanks for the Wiki link! Its ALMOST as big of a timesink as Wookiepedia for me now. :P

Also on reading about Gandalf's ring:

"It is described as having the power to inspire others to resist tyranny, domination and despair"
What could the other rings do? I was told that elrond's "ring of Wind" is what caused the river to rise when the Nazgul tried to enter Imladris.


Also it's kind of ironic at what the Ring of Fire does, seeing as it's real purpose was for Sauron to take control of the bearer of it. :P

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Where is it said that Narya's real purpose was for Sauron to take control of the bearer of it? 0.o Actually Elrond says at the Council in Rivendell that none of the rings were made to be gear of war....their powers were only that of healing and preserving and resisting the evil powers.....

Narya was the Ring of Fire, given by the elven smith Celebrimbor to Gil Galad when he was going to fight Sauron with the Last Alliance, so that he could resist Sauron's power and dominance when he fought him......Gil Galad gave it to Cirdan though and kept Vilya with himself until he died in the final battle with Sauron on Mount Doom....then it was given to Elrond, who was Gil Galad's herald and one of the only 2 people present with him of his army (second was Cirdan).....Cirdan later gave Narya to Gandalf when he arrived to Middle Earth....hence he could resist the Balrog's power as well as the temptation of the One Ring.....its a kind of boost to willpower.....

Vilya, the ring of Air, is possessed by Elrond....its supposed to be the mightiest of the 3 elven rings and although its power is not clearly defined anywhere, its supposedly a ring with powers of Restoration and Healing and Preservation.....hence Elrond has such great healing powers and Rivendell is preserved as is mentioned in the books - "the memory of all the Ages gone seems to be preserved there"....although its not clear if the ring was associated with the flood of Bruinen......its only said that the river of that valley is under the control of Elrond (as is everything in that valley) and it will listen to his commands.....if he uses the ring to do that or simply has that kind of power himself, cant say.....though it does make sense that the ring might aid him in doing that.... :)

Nenya, the ring of Water, is possessed by Galadriel and its the Ring of Adamant as Galadriel tells Frodo....its powers are obviously those of maintenance, some sort of adamant of will power and protection....hence Lothlorien is so magical because the ring has a power to even affect time and people as the fellowship feel when they live there....its as if living in the past....in an unstained, perfect harmonious time.....

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Also, what was Glorfindel (Or who ever the RK class was supposedly based off, he's near the last homely house in game, if you walk straight past the house and near the water fall.) The huge amount of hope he gives in-game tells me he's extremely old.

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The RK class is not based on Glorfindel...its based on Celebrimbor.....the celebrated elven smith of Eregion.....one who crafted the 3 rings Vilya, Nenya and Narya.... :)

Glorfindel on the other hand is one of the High Elves....he was old indeed....there is a mention of another elf named Glorfindel in the earlier Ages, in Silmarillion, at Gondolin and its fall, although its unclear whether this is the same Glorfindel that we see in the Lord of the Rings.....both of them are said to be one of the mighty Firstborn though......who have lived in Aman and possess great strength and power......And you'll see that all those characters that are known to have lived in the Blessed Realm at some point in the lore, give off exceptional hope in the game (+10 hope).....be it Glorfindel, Galadriel, Celeborn, etc.....

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Originally Posted by amien

Also it's kind of ironic at what the Ring of Fire does, seeing as it's real purpose was for Sauron to take control of the bearer of it. :P

Also, what was Glorfindel (Or who ever the RK class was supposedly based off, he's near the last homely house in game, if you walk straight past the house and near the water fall.) The huge amount of hope he gives in-game tells me he's extremely old.

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The Elf-rings don't have power like the One Ring (Troll-strength, etc.) Narya gave hope to anyone who was near, or who thought of, Gandalf. It gave people the will to resist Tyranny, and made Gandalf an even more efficient leader It's like the hope buff heroes give you in game, except that it's +20 hope or whatever.

However, you are right. The Elf-lords themselves said that it would have been better if the Elf Rings were never crafted, for Sauron could now know a lot about the Elf settlements using the One Ring.

The RK class is inspired by Celebrimbor, not Glorfindel. Glorfindel was an Elf lord in Gondolin, a very important hidden fortress of the First Age. It housed Turgon, Lord of the Noldor Elves (High Elves). It fell when a certain Dark Elf betrayed its locaion to Morgoth.
Glorfindel protected a group of important people escaping the ruin, however he had to fight a Balrog. He and the Balrog were both killed. Later, in the Third Age I think, the Valar sent him back to aid in fighting Sauron.

So you can guess that his might is comparable to Elrond's. In fact, he is much older than Elrond. Seeing him should give you a + infinity hope buff, because each servant of Sauron, including Sauron himself, fears Glorfindel.

EDIT: Silverblade beat me to it. Damn all of you lore-junkies :P

Why is Elrond a High-elf? Or if he isn't, what in particular makes him so famous among the elves. I know that he's half man half elf, but he isn't anywhere as old as Galadriel or Glorfindel

Also, who exactly is Celeborn (Galadriel's husband?)? In the movies and the game itself, everyone kind of ignores the poor guy. Is he a light elf, or has he never seen Aman?

Also, what is to prevent men from sailing to Aman?

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Originally Posted by amien

Why is Elrond a High-elf? Or if he isn't, what in particular makes him so famous among the elves. I know that he's half man half elf, but he isn't anywhere as old as Galadriel or Glorfindel

Also, who exactly is Celeborn (Galadriel's husband?)? In the movies and the game itself, everyone kind of ignores the poor guy. Is he a light elf, or has he never seen Aman?

Also, what is to prevent men from sailing to Aman?

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Elrond has descended from many High Elven kings; he is a Noldor Elf. His is of "noble blood", to say. That pretty much qualifies him as a High Elf, though he had never lived in Eldamar.
He is famous because

1. He is the son of the person who triggered the fall of Morgoth
2. He was the Herald of Gil-Galad, king of the High Elves
3. His was the only refuge for High Elves in Middle-Earth (Rivendell)
4. He has Vilya, the greatest of the Three Rings (I think)
5. He is more learned in lore than anyone, even Gandalf.
6. He is a very important member of the White Council.
7. He is the eldest of the Edain (though he is not a man himself), and was thus respected by all the Dunedain Kings.
8. He was the brother of the first King of Numenor.
9. He is descended from nearly ALL the houses of Elves and Men, and he is part Maiar too.
10. He, Cirdan, Gil Galad, Isildur and Elendil were the only ones who confronted Sauron

And many more reasons...

Celeborn was an Elf lord in Doriath, a great kingdom of Sindar Elves in the First Age. Galadriel sort of overshadows his role, as she plays a much mre important role than him. I think he is a Sindar Elf, so he's not a light Elf.

The Race of Man does not belong in the "Undying" Lands, Aman. They could, however, set sail to the place, like Earendil did. But after the First Age, the Men of Numenor (The remnants of the Men of Beleriand) were forbidden to set sail to the West. The last king of the Numenor tried to break this ban, and he did set foot on Aman, but then Numenor was destroyed and the Undying Lands were removed from the Circles of the World.

Thus, now, only Elves could reach Aman, and races *other than Men* can only reach Aman if guided by Elves. Men, however, are now free to go wherever they want, as can be seen from the discoveries of many new lands, such as the Americas. (LOTR is a fictional history of the Earth).

(Right now, the Sixth Age is going on. The Dwarves have shut themselves from the world and are in their subterranean homes. The Elves who remained in Middle-Earth have "faded" and become invisible to Men. IDK about Hobbits.)

I just wanted to thank all of you lore junkies for all this information. /deepbow

If you're really into the lore, these are my thoughts on the Americas:

Once the Undying Lands were removed from the World, the land itself (the bare land (not exactly bare, but you get the point)) was left on Arda. These lands were the Americas, as they are directly west of Europe, where Middle Earth was. In fact, Numenor was in the Atlantic Ocean (a counterpart to Atlantis).

Some Equivalents...

Scandinavia = Forochel. The shape is somewhat similar, if you observe.
(You can make out the rest of Europe if this is true)
Africa = Harad. There was an excellent map of Arda which showed this.
The Americas = Undying Lands
Atlantis = Numenor

I COULD BE VERY WRONG WITH THESE, though.

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Originally Posted by amien

Why is Elrond a High-elf? Or if he isn't, what in particular makes him so famous among the elves. I know that he's half man half elf, but he isn't anywhere as old as Galadriel or Glorfindel

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Elrond is the son of Earendil, the seafarer who is the only mortal to have ever crossed the Enchanted Isles to the Undying Lands, using the flying ship he built with the help of Cirdan, to ask aid of the Valar in defeating Morgoth....in which he succeeded and hence the Valar came and defeated Morgoth....he is called Halfelven because he was half elven from his mother's side....his mother Elwing was the daughter of Dior who is the son of Beren (who was a mortal man) and Luthien (who was an elven princess).....when Earendil gained the favor of the Valar, his sons Elrond and Elros were offered the choice of being an immortal elf or a mortal man....Elrond chose to be elven, while Elros chose mortality....He was the son of the legendary Earendil, he was the herald of Gil Galad and later the wielder of Vilya and Lord of Rivendell and also main ally of Arnor, the north kingdom of the Dunadan during its glory.....hence his fame..... :)

And even though he doesnt seem to be as old as Galadriel, he is almost so....Elrond was born in the late First Age and is roughly 6000+ years old during the events of the Lord of the Rings....Galadriel is older because she was born during the earlier part of the First Age....

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Also, who exactly is Celeborn (Galadriel's husband?)? In the movies and the game itself, everyone kind of ignores the poor guy. Is he a light elf, or has he never seen Aman?

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The origin of Celeborn is not clear but being the Lord of Lothlorien alongwith Galadriel obviously meant he was of High House of elves.....its mentioned that he was kinsman of Thingol, Lord of Beleriand and King of Doriath....Also almost all the older High Elves have seen Aman....Also since it was Celeborn who first called the White Council, its definite that he's been to Aman....

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Also, what is to prevent men from sailing to Aman?

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It wasnt always so....when Numenor was made for the Men to dwell at, the Men were only forbidden to sail West out of sight of the island of Numenor.....Men were given the gift of being mortal, to die of old age when they grew weary of life.....and the Valar feared that Men would not see it as a gift and would want to attain immortality by coming to Aman.....which was quite right because in the Second Age, Sauron used his trickery and cunning to befriend himself with the Men of Westernesse and soon became the advisor of the then King, Ar-Pharazon.....Numenor was very powerful then and at the height of its glory.....Sauron slowly lured the King to the temptation of immortality and hence under Sauron's influence, Ar-Phazaron ignored the Valar's order of not sailing West and journeyed to Aman with an army to capture Aman.....when he came there, since the Valar were not allowed to directly attack Men, they called upon Eru (The main God entity of the lore) for help .... He removed the Blessed Realm forever from the reach of Men and destroyed the island of Numenor killing everyone who was there.....only Elendil who had forseen this danger when Ar-Phazaron set sail to attack Aman, had travelled to Middle Earth before Numenor was destroyed, with all the people that followed him, and hence they survived.....


Edit - Haunt beat me to it this time hehe :o

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Originally Posted by amien

How come Gandalf loses to the Balrog in Moria? The elven king in the Silmarillion cuts down many of them in his rampage into Angband, and Gandalf is a Miar(Spelling)!

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In my estimation, Gandalf's fight with Durin's Bane that culminated at the peak of Zirakzigil ended in a tie: they were both slain. Gandalf achieved the ultimate victory, however, when Ilúvatar gave him a new body so that he may complete the task for which he had been sent.

The Balrogs that fought the Noldor were either weaker than Durin's Bane or the Noldor more powerful warriors than Gandalf. Take your pick. Seriously, 'The Fall of Gondolin' and other stories that appear in The Silmarillion were written long before The Lord of the Rings was ever conceived. There are some obvious inconsistencies that Professor Tolkien was unable to rectify before his passing. His son Christopher compiled The Silmarillion from the copious amount of material that his father had written over a span of many years.

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Originally Posted by amien

Also, it seems like in LOTR, the older you are, the more powerful you are. Hence the Wizards/Sauron/ Galadriel being beacons of hope/dread. Is this an adequate way of looking at things?

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No, age is not necessarily a factor in the amount of power that one possesses. For example, Círdan the Shipwright is definitely older than Elrond and thought to be older than Galadriel, yet he is not nearly so powerful as they. (Círdan once possessed Narya, the Ring of Fire, but gave it to Gandalf upon the latter's arrival in Middle-earth. Even with the ring he likely was not more powerful than Elrond or Galadriel.)

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Originally Posted by amien

BUT I have heard that Gandalf was just as powerful as Sauron, he just didn't really have the confidence to do it.... What do you guys think?

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I suggest you read Unfinished Tales, particularly the chapter entitled 'The Istari'.

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Originally Posted by amien

Why is Saruman more powerful than Gandalf in FotR? I don't know who Saruman's Valar is, but I know Gandalf's is Manwe (The leader of the Valar). Is it because Gandalf has physically lived on Middle-Earth for less time than the other wizards?

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Same answer as previous.

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Originally Posted by amien

How come Sauruman's orcs are digging the Uruk-hai like Lurtz out of the Mud? I thought that Uruk-hai were corrupted men, and orcs corrupted elves.

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I can't answer the mud question because that was a creation of the filmmakers.

Uruk-hai simply means 'Orc-people' in the Black Speech, the language devised by Sauron. The term Uruk-hai, often shortened to Uruk, is used in The Lord of the Rings to refer to the large sun-resistant Orcs who served as soldiers for both Sauron and Saruman. It is not precisely known how Orcs came into being or how they were bred, although it is said that they had offspring in the manner of Men. The Elves believed that Morgoth brought Orcs into being by torturing and twisting Elves that he had captured. This was just a theory, however, that they were never able to verify. It is evident that Saruman bred Orcs with Men to produce creatures like the so-called Squint-eyed Southerner observed in Bree. Merry and Pippin report seeing others like him in Isengard.

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Originally Posted by amien

Why is Elrond a High-elf? Or if he isn't, what in particular makes him so famous among the elves. I know that he's half man half elf, but he isn't anywhere as old as Galadriel or Glorfindel

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Elrond isn't an Elf at all, he's Halfelven, although he chose the Fate of the Elves. He is approximately 6,500 years old at the time of the War of the Ring. His brother, Elros, chose the Fate of Men and was the first king of Númenor. Elrond's ancestry is Noldor and Sindar from the Elves, and the Houses of Bëor and Hador from Men. His great-great-grandmother is Melian the Maia. His father is Eärendil, who sails the heavens in Vingilot with a Silmaril upon his brow. He is wed to Celebrían, the daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn. After the war his daughter, Arwen, weds Aragorn and becomes the queen of the reunited kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor.

Elrond is obviously very wise, has great knowledge of the events of the first Three Ages, and possesses the most powerful of the Three Elven Rings, Vilya, the Ring of Air. Elrond established Imladris (Rivendell), and served as Gil-galad's herald during the Last Alliance of Elves and Men. He is a member of the White Council that makes decisions on important affairs of the Free Peoples.

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Originally Posted by amien

Also, who exactly is Celeborn (Galadriel's husband?)?...Is he a light elf, or has he never seen Aman?

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That depends upon which version of his story you wish to believe, as there is one in The Silmarillion and several others in Unfinished Tales. According to the version in The Silmarillion he is a Sinda (Grey-elf), and a kinsman of Thingol. In that version he has not seen Aman and, obviously, is not a Light Elf. (Among the Elves of Middle-earth that distinction only applied only to the Noldor who defied the Valar and to Thingol.)

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Originally Posted by amien

Also, what is to prevent men from sailing to Aman?

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I suggest reading The Silmarillion to find the answer to that question, particularly the chapters entitled 'The Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath' and particularly 'Akallabêth'.

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Originally Posted by oldbadgerbrock

I can't answer the mud question because that was a creation of the filmmakers.

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In context, yes but it looks to me like they'd borrowed that from Tolkien's earliest notion of where the Orcs had come from, of Melko (as he was then) having made them from 'stone and slime'. So, not entirely un-Tolkienesque, albeit a long way removed from LOTR and from very old material, and it did make for an effective scene. The look on Saruman's face when he was admiring his newborn creation was well worth it, I thought :)

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Originally Posted by amien

Also, what was Glorfindel (Or who ever the RK class was supposedly based off, he's near the last homely house in game, if you walk straight past the house and near the water fall.) The huge amount of hope he gives in-game tells me he's extremely old.

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Another extremely useful site for information on all things Lord of the Rings is the encyclopedia of Arada http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.asp

There is an excellent note there on Glorfindel, concerning whether the Glorfindel of Gondollin and the Glorfindel of Rivendell were indeed the same elf, and its also a good commentary as a whole on how to handle the information found in the Lost Tales and Histories of Middle Earth:

The Problem of the Two Glorfindels

With the possible exception of Tom Bombadil's identity (and - of course - the wingedness or otherwise of Balrogs), there is no more hotly debated topic than the ultimate fate of Glorfindel. Were Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of Rivendell the same person? The only real resource we have to answer this question is in The Peoples of Middle-earth (The History of Middle-earth Vol. 12): XIII Last Writings, Glorfindel. Christopher Tolkien dates the notes he gives here at 1972, the year before his father's death. These notes clear up one question immediately: at the time of the writing of The Lord of the Rings, Glorfindel of Rivendell was not conceived as the same character as Glorfindel of Gondolin. Tolkien says, 'Its use [i.e. the name 'Glorfindel'] in The Lord of the Rings is one of the cases of the somewhat random use of the names found in the older legends ... which escaped reconsideration in the final published form...'. Tolkien was far from happy with this state of affairs, however, and it seems that he intended to reconcile the problem by uniting the two strands of the story. In summary, the notes tell us that Glorfindel's spirit returned to the Halls of Waiting, but was after a time re-embodied by the Valar. He then returned to Middle-earth (either in the mid-Second Age, or as a companion of the Istari in the Third). For the full story of his return, refer to The Peoples of Middle-earth.

The question of Glorfindel's identity, then, brings us to a much wider, and highly relevant, question. Can we accept a writer's personal notes, whether written in preparation for a published work, or simply for personal satisfaction, as part of that writer's 'canon'? The importance of this question is highlighted by the essay entitled The Problem of Ros in the same volume of The History of Middle-earth. This is an extensive disposition on the origins and meaning of the syllable ros in names such as Elros. The details need not concern us here: what is relevant is the fact that, after its composition, Tolkien noticed a detail in the published Lord of the Rings that essentially negated the discussion. He dismissed the body of The Problem of Ros with four words; 'most of this fails'. But what if he had not noticed this inconvenient fact (that Cair Andros had already been interpreted, and disagreed with his conclusions)? What if he had noticed, but had failed to record the fact? Would The Problem of Ros now be considered part of the 'Tolkienian' canon in the way that many regard the notes on Glorfindel? Questions like this show that we cannot simply take such notes on immediate face value.

Despite this, the Glorfindel notes lead many to see his re-embodiment and return to Middle-earth as 'fact' (and not a few have e-mailed us to remind us of this!) The purpose of this rather lengthy aside, though, is to show that we cannot view these 'events' in such concrete terms. This is the reason that the 'two Glorfindels' have separate entries on this site. This is not because we do not believe that Tolkien saw them as different embodiments of the same character (as we have seen, there are strong indications that he did), but simply because there is no definitive, published, proof of this.

Glorfindel of Gondolin was, according to the Silmarillion and the recent Children of Hurin (both of which, remember, were compiled by Christopher Tolkien based on his father's notes, and thus falls into the realm of debate) a captain of the High King of the Noldor in Middle Earth, Turgon. It is said that he was of the house of the golden flower. Now a man named Tuor had been sent to Gondolin to warn the elves to leave before this all happened (in fact, Ulmo the Vala was the one who had shown Turgon the hidden valley where Gondolin was built, and he had told him then that when it was time to leave, he would send someone to them to warn them), but it is said that Turgon had fallen in love with Gondolin and he and his people refused to leave. He did allow Tuor to stay and treated him well, him being an emmissary of a Vala and all. Tuor fell in love with Turgon's daughter, Idril, and they married (which ticked off her cousin, a dark elf named Maeglin who was Turgon's sister's son by a apparently Sinda elf, because He was in love with Idril himself). They had a son named Earendil, who later married the granddaughter of Beren and Luthien and fathered Elrond and Elros. Now Idril & Tuor disagreed with Turgon's decision to remain in Gondolin, but respected their king's decision. So they began to prepare a secret way out of the city, knowing that an attack would come. In a few short years, it did. Maeglin, Turgon's nephew, snuck out of the city often, despite Turgon's decree that no one was to leave, and was captured by Morgoth. He betrayed the city's location and Morgoth sent his armies to destroy it. In the battle, Turgon's high captain, an elf named Ecthelion, battled the Balrog captain Gothmog and defeated him, but died in the process. Thanks to Idril and Tuor, however, some were able to escape the destruction and used their secret passage to flee into the mountains. However, at least one of Morgoth's creatures chased after them. As they were winding up mountains paths, a Balrog caught up with them. Glorfindel fought the balrog. in the battle, they both fell from the high mountain path into a deep gorge and died.

Of course, the source for all this comes from the Silmarillion and the others volumes compiled by Christopher Tolkien from his father's notes. So there is debate on whether any of this can truly be taken as canon or not. It really depends on what you accept as canon--pretty much everyone agrees that the published LOTR trilogy is canon; however, some include the Hobbit in that, others don't; some considered all the above and the Silmarillion as canon; others disagree; some considered everything in the histories to be canon but exclude the lost tales, others take it all as canon. However, there are a lot of inconsistencies throughout all these choices--things in the appendices of the Return of the King don't agree with things as published in the Silmarillion which don't agree with things published in the Histories. And even if we had the good professor here today we might not get a clear cut answer, either (look at some of the discussions in the Letters of Tolkien!). This was literally his life's work, and the world and its characters evolved over several decades. But because it was his life's work, Tolkien was constantly tweaking things and changing them, tinkering with them. He saw the inconsistencies in some of his lore and did try to fix them--for example, the origin of orcs. Early on, he declared them to have been twisted elves, but its said that later in his life, he could see the problems encountered by this origin and was actually considering changing that and making there origin to be men. That, of course, throws a monkey wrench into his lore, however, as orcs were seen in Middle Earth before the beginning of hte first age, while men were said to have not awakened until the first sun rose. Its even said that at the end of his life, he was considering a massive re-write of his creation story. As things are now, Arda, when first created, was flat, and was not made a globe until near the end of the second age when Numenor was destroyed and Valinor removed from the circles of the earth. Tolkien, since he considered his whole opus to be a mythological pre-history of our world, was, at the end of his life, considering revamping his storyline to fit with what we know of our world and universe--thus, he was playing around with the idea of making Arda a globe all along, claiming that it was only the perception of those on the earth who considered it to be flat (much like our ancestors did in the Middle Ages). He also was going to change the origins of the sun and moon, as they are obliviously not great jewels being guided through the sky by angel-like beings :)

Of course, being that he considered the whole entire thing to be a myth and legend, it really isn't a problem that the inconsistencies with reality existed; the thing was all fiction anyway. I mean, look at all the inconsistencies found in the Greek myths and fables!

So all that is said to just make the point that there is nothing, except perhaps the trilogy itself, that is solid when it comes to the lore of Middle Earth. Everything else is up for debate! :)

My personal preference is to blend them as best I can, taking the trilogy to be the first source, and then using what I know from the Silmarilion unless there are things that Christopher himself expressly indicates are mistakes on his part (such as Orodreth being Finrod's nephew, not his brother). Now I myself tend to lean more toward the Silmarillion, but that's only because I have read the Silmarillion and am familiar with it; I have not read lost tales or the histories and only know whats in them through online reference sources. I also often refer to the appendices in ROTK but acknowledge that Tolkien himself had intended to change those after they were published, and thus it may be better to take the histories over them in areas where they disagree.

But this is my personal framework; by no means does anyone else have to agree with me!

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Originally Posted by AllySanders

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Mother of God... that was a pretty long post on Glorfindel!
+1 rep for info

And just because I have a big mouth and can't resist adding the rest of my eight and half cents :D

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Originally Posted by amien

Why is Elrond a High-elf? Or if he isn't, what in particular makes him so famous among the elves. I know that he's half man half elf, but he isn't anywhere as old as Galadriel or Glorfindel

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It depends on your definition of the term High Elf. The term could refer to the Noldor who returned from Aman or to those elves who had gone to Valinor and saw the light of the two trees. So, being that Elrond was descended from Turgon, one of the High kings of the Noldor in Middle Earth who had been born in Aman during the time of the trees, he could claim that title. Also, his great-grandfather Elwe, also known as Thingol, the king of the Sinda Elves (and I think considered king by the Silvan elves as well) had traveled to Aman as an emissary from the elves way back when they first awoke and had also seen the light of the trees, though he himself did not settle in Aman and chose to remain behind, and thus might, if you go with the second idea of high elves, also be considered a high elf. So it could be that the title passed to him simply due to his ancestry.

Also, looking at Elrond's ancestry and being that he was a descendent of the high king through Turgon's daughter, Elrond technicially had a very good claim to the title High King if he had wanted it. Gil-galad was a cousin of his. Also, since he was the oldest living descendent of Luthian, the only daughter of Thingol, he had a somewhat claim to the title king of the Sindar as well. Of course, all this is only theoretical, Elrond did not make those claims. But in any case, there are a lot of factors in Elrond's case that come into play when including him among the high elves of Middle Earth.

if you want to define High Elf to mean the wisest and most powerful of the elves in Middle Earth, again, Elrond meets that criteria because of his great wisdom, his wielding one of the three rings of power, and because of his descent from some of the most powerful elves in Middle Earth--AND being the only "elf" in middle earth left who had that strain of maia from Melian--because while Elrond is called the half-elven, which is itself, technically inconsistent, when you break the numbers down, since he chose to be numbered among the first born, it's not completely wrong to just refer to him as an elf.

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Originally Posted by amien

Also, who exactly is Celeborn (Galadriel's husband?)? In the movies and the game itself, everyone kind of ignores the poor guy. Is he a light elf, or has he never seen Aman?

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As mentioned before, there are a lot of problems with the story of Galadriel and by extension, Celeborn. Galadriel's importance to the story really only evolved over time in Tolkien's mind, and as she took a more prominent place in the story, he continually changed her history. Thus, there are a lot of different variations out there. The version published in the Silmarillion states that she came across the grinding ice to Beleriand with her brothers and uncle Fingolfin and met Celeborn in Doriath; thus Celeborn was a Sinda elf and a dark elf as he had never saw the light of the two trees (since the definition of dark elf was only that the elf had never been to Aman). I believe it said he was a kinsman of Thingol there.

But other variations are found in Tolkien's notes. One states that she met Celeborn in Aman and that they married there and crossed the ocean on their own, following after the Noldor. In this case, Celeborn would be a high elf from Aman.

A good essay on this can be found at the Encyclopedia of Arda website, the link to which I mentioned in my previous post:

Theme and Variations

Where The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings make mention of matters in the early history of Arda, they're usually referring to events that were already part of the Silmarillion cycle, and so already documented and understood by their author. For instance, when it's revealed that Glamdring belonged to the King of Gondolin, or Aragorn tells the story of Beren and Lúthien, these are references to stories and poems that really did already exist.

Galadriel, though, doesn't belong to this pattern. The story of The Lord of the Rings establishes that she's a High Elf of some importance, and so should appear somewhere in the stories of the First Age, but in fact her character only emerged during the writing of The Lord of the Rings, and no mention of her existed in the earlier traditions.

Tolkien looked at various different ways to adapt Galadriel into the Silmarillion stories, and the account given in this entry blends the most common themes to produce an account that matches all the published material. It's important to bear in mind, though, that Tolkien never truly finalised Galadriel's role in the earlier history of Middle-earth, or the story of her relationship to Celeborn. He attempted a number of experimental variations on the theme of her life, and the following is a selection of these variations, to give a flavour of some of alternative lives Galadriel might have lived in a parallel literary universe.

*Celeborn was not a Sinda of Doriath, but a Silvan Elf who was Lord of Lórien in his own right, so that Galadriel didn't meet him until she travelled there.
*Celeborn was not a Sinda of Doriath, but one of the Teleri, and Galadriel met him in Aman rather than Middle-earth. The two crossed the Great Sea together independently of Fëanor's journey into Middle-earth, but were trapped there when Fëanor brought about the Exile of the Noldor.
*Amroth was not merely the former King of Lórien, but actually the son of Galadriel and Celeborn. His parents took over the rule of their son's kingdom after he was lost.
*Galadriel didn't merely travel to Eregion, but actually founded that land, and ruled it herself for many years. According to this version, Celebrimbor consorted with Annatar in secret, and made the Rings of Power without Galadriel's knowledge or permission.

It can't be said for certain that Tolkien intended to reject all of these options. In fact, had he survived to complete the Silmarillion himself, some of these elements may plausibly have found their way into Galadriel's 'true' history.

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Originally Posted by Mithfindel

Whoa, whoa, whoa...

It's good to remember that beyond what was published within the Professor's lifetime, little is really set in stone. JRRT's notes have been published, but if using them as a source, it is needed to anchor a specific time frame which to use, as he tended to revise the world. (On the online age, you might compare this to some playing LotRO on 2007 version of SoA and others on current - some things change, some things stay the same. Using lore based on the Book of Lost Tales would be about on the lines of finding Sierra design documents and hacking together Middle-earth Online.)

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I completely agree with you on that one! But I won't reiterate my entire boring spiel on what can be considered canon from my previous post. I would say on things like this, which can be hotly debated, you should just see what options are out there and then decide which version fits with your own views of that world and go with it. :) In truth, there isn't really a "right" or "wrong" answer when picking from the various options.

So if I want to stick with the Silmarillion's version that says that Amrad was NOT accidentally burnt to death when Feanor burnt the ships at Losgar, I can, dang it! :) :p

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Originally Posted by Haunt123

Mother of God... that was a pretty long post on Glorfindel!
+1 rep for info

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:D

What can I say? I'm longwinded! At least, when it comes to the keyboard, anyway :D

How large was Beleriand exactly? Does everything that takes place in the Silmarillion take place on Beleriand?

As for the House of Numenor, they came to acquire long life from being around elves and learning from them so much, So when Elindil fled Numenor taking some people with him, did the blood kind of, lose its potency as they bred with normal men and no longer had contact with the Elves?

I saw someone listed Aragorn and Arwen being lords over the reunited kingdoms of Anor and Gondor, what/where was Arnor? The mention I've seen of it was in the Northdowns in game.

Why do people argue so hottly over whether or not Balrogs have wings?


Big question here:

What exactly was Tom Bombadil?
reading on the Wiki about how lesser creatures would turn invisible with the One Ring, but greater people could become invincible. I know that Tom didn't turn invisible, so would it have made him more powerful than he already was?

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Originally Posted by amien

How large was Beleriand exactly? Does everything that takes place in the Silmarillion take place on Beleriand?

As for the House of Numenor, they came to acquire long life from being around elves and learning from them so much, So when Elindil fled Numenor taking some people with him, did the blood kind of, lose its potency as they bred with normal men and no longer had contact with the Elves?

I saw someone listed Aragorn and Arwen being lords over the reunited kingdoms of Anor and Gondor, what/where was Arnor? The mention I've seen of it was in the Northdowns in game.

Why do people argue so hottly over whether or not have wings?


Big question here:

What exactly was Tom Bombadil?
reading on the Wiki about how lesser creatures would turn invisible with the One Ring, but greater people could become invincible. I know that Tom didn't turn invisible, so would it have made him more powerful than he already was?

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I promise--I'll try to keep this one short.

I'm not sure the exact size of Beleriand, but would probably compare it in size to Eriador at the least. Yes, all the events in the Silmarillion that happened in the 1st Age happened in Beleriand, except, of course, for those events that happened in the Blessed Realm. Beleriand sunk after the War of Wrath and was no more, so then everything moved to Eriador and the lands south and east of the Misty Mountains.

Numenor wasn't a house or a single family; it was an island created by the Valar to reward those men who were faithful in fighting against Morgoth. Secondly, the people of Numenor did not receive their long lives from association with the elves; it was a special blessing granted to them by Eru and the Valar. Elves did not live on Numenor; they only visited it occassionally until the people there turned against them.

Yes, the long life was lost in part to their intermingling with lesser men in Middle Earth during the Third Age, but not just that either; it was also because they in effect were in exile in Middle Earth and the blessings of Numenor were slowly taken from them over the years. As Faramir said, the men of Gondor by the time of the war of the ring were no longer high men but truly now middle men with memory of higher things.

Arnor was the northern kingdom ruled by Elendil and later Isildur's heirs. It covered the entire region between the Blue Mountains and the Misty Mountains pretty much. The original capital was Annuminas (visit Evendim to see the ruins), later moved to Fornost (go to the North Downs to do its ruins). It was never as prosperous as Gondor nor as populated. It broke into 3 kingdoms later in its history and was slowly destroyed one by one by the Witchking and his kingdom of Angmar.

Argue hotly over whether what had wings? Balrogs? Taht's because Tolkien talks about the shadow behind it being like great wings but doesn't explicitly call them wings.

Tolkien never says who or what Tom Bombidil was and actually purposely, according to the Letters of JRR Tolkien, kept that to himself, though I'm not sure he himself ever explored that. Tom was definitely no human or elf, and its debated whether he was a maia or not. He tells Frodo he was in Middle Earth before the first acorn was planted, so he's obviously very old. Some wonder if he's not Eru in bodily form, but most discard that idea as not really making any sense.

Of course, a bigger question is, who is the river lady who was Goldberry's mother, and where did she come from? :)

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Originally Posted by amien

How large was Beleriand exactly? Does everything that takes place in the Silmarillion take place on Beleriand?

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Beleriand was huge....it includes Ered Luin and everything west of it till the shores of Great Sea Belegaer....but since it sunk after the last war, its difficult to put it in estimate....

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As for the House of Numenor, they came to acquire long life from being around elves and learning from them so much, So when Elindil fled Numenor taking some people with him, did the blood kind of, lose its potency as they bred with normal men and no longer had contact with the Elves?

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The Men of Westernesse were a long lived race by themselves, blessed to be so by the Valar....and when they arrived to Middle Earth, they were a large number still, enough to occupy and form two huge kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor....so the mingling of normal blood was slow....obviously it did happen over time, but there were many who were still purely numenorian....

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I saw someone listed Aragorn and Arwen being lords over the reunited kingdoms of Anor and Gondor, what/where was Arnor? The mention I've seen of it was in the Northdowns in game.

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Arnor was the entire north kingdom of the dunadan....Gondor was the south kingdom....Arnor included all of Eriador, right from the River Lune to the Bruinen.....its capital was the city of Annuminas founded by Elendil himself.....it later got divided into 3 parts Arthedain, Cardolan and Rhudaur.....the capital of Arthedain, the biggest and most powerful of the three, was Fornost.....but then many wars took place and much happened.....and the great kingdom of Arnor fell when the Witch King successfully captured it....the final Battle of Fornost did free it from the Witch King's rule and he fled, but Fornost was ruined and the North Kingdom was mostly deserted, the people dispersed.....the Rangers (including Aragorn) were mostly people of that kingdom living in exile...

After the Battle of Fornost (TA 1975) it lay deserted until the War of the Ring and the destruction of the One Ring and Sauron....Aragorn then took the throne of Gondor as well as Arnor which was rightfully his and in later years after the events of the Lord of the Rings rebuilt even the North Kingdom, though not many details of that are given except in the epilogues of the Return of the King.....

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Why do people argue so hottly over whether or not have wings?

Big question here:

What exactly was Tom Bombadil?
reading on the Wiki about how lesser creatures would turn invisible with the One Ring, but greater people could become invincible. I know that Tom didn't turn invisible, so would it have made him more powerful than he already was?

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Lol dunno what wings you meant, so I'll skip that one.... :o

Tom Bombadil's origin and everything is left a complete mystery.....the Professor himself said so in one of his letters iirc....only the bits and pieces we find in the Lord of the Rings and other works is what leads to guessing he was one of the very early creature (or person but since his race is not defined either, we'll leave it at that :)) to walk middle earth....he recalls the wars of the northern kingdom and even says he knows the shadow of the night when it was fearless.....before the terror came....so that means he was already there before Sauron came to middle earth.....or if we consider Morgoth to be that, even before that.... O.o but there is no proof, no data....

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Originally Posted by silverblade5445

The Men of Westernesse were a long lived race by themselves, blessed to be so by the Valar....and when they arrived to Middle Earth, they were a large number still, enough to occupy and form two huge kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor....so the mingling of normal blood was slow....obviously it did happen over time, but there were many who were still purely numenorian....

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*grins* Well, I wouldn't say purely Numenorian--see the thread about Denethor being able to use the One Ring for more detail on THAT debate :)

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Originally Posted by AllySanders

Arnor was the northern kingdom ruled by Elendil and later Isildur's heirs. It covered the entire region between the Blue Mountains and the Misty Mountains pretty much. The original capital was Annuminas (visit Evendim to see the ruins), later moved to Fornost (go to the North Downs to do its ruins). It was never as prosperous as Gondor nor as populated. It broke into 3 kingdoms later in its history and was slowly destroyed one by one by the Witchking and his kingdom of Angmar.

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IIRC, at the height of its power, Arnor and Annuminas were far more prosperous than Gondor was....it was where Elendil himself lived and ruled.....Gondor's main city back then was Osgilliath.... :)

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Of course, a bigger question is, who is the river lady who was Goldberry's mother, and where did she come from? :)

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Lol yes, now that is a far more intriguing question, but since she is not shown to have powers, many dont feel much curious about her....Tom on the other hand is shown to resist the power of the One Ring with mundane ease.....the Ring which even Elrond, Gandalf and Galadriel feared to get tempted with....not to mention power over the dead and creatures like the Old Willow.....that generates a lot of intrigue about Tom :D

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Originally Posted by AllySanders

*grins* Well, I wouldn't say purely Numenorian--see the thread about Denethor being able to use the One Ring for more detail on THAT debate :)

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Lol I'll have to check that out :o

Though I dint mean Denethor, but people like Aragorn, or maybe some of the Rangers, or Prince Imrahil....these were of significantly noble or rather numenorian lineage :) no clear idea though....I havent read anywhere of this part :o

A few notes on Earendil and related Half-Elves:

According to Elven legends, Tuor was allowed into Aman with Idril (an Exile Noldo, daughter of Turgon). Tuor was given the choice, which he delegated to Idril, who chose that they both be Elves. According to this legend, Tuor lives to this day in Aman, together with Idril.

Eärendil (son of Tuor and Idril) chose to be Elven. His ship was originally just a regular ship (passed into Aman with a Silmaril), and was augmented in the Undying Lands to fly. He is the origin of the Choice of the Half-Elven (Tuor was a one-off case and started as a mortal). Eärendil chose to be an Elf. (Technically he'd be more like a demigod, though part of this can be attributed to the possession of the Silmaril.)

Elwing (daughter of Dior and Nimloth of Doriath) is also a Half-Elf. With some interesting bits of heritage, including Maiar blood. His father Dior was born to Beren and Lúthien, both then mortal, so it could be logical to assume that Dior was mortal. This would be supported by him being the lord of Doriath: He died at the age of 35, at which age an Elf would be just a toddler.

Elros and Elrond, thus, come from a Half-Elf/Half-Elf marriage. They also had the Choice of the Half-Elves: Elros as we know picked mortal (and thus all descendants of Elros are mortal) and Elrond picked Elf, so the descendants of Elrond must pick themselves, until someone picks mortal and the bloodline becomes mortal. (Arwen became mortal, the choice of Elladan and Elrohir is unknown. On the other hand, they stayed in Rivendell after Elrond had left, but on the other hand, the wording of that passage - at least in Finnish translation - seems to indicate they eventually sailed.)

On the Silmarilli and the Undying Lands: Silmaril and the Undying Lands aren't actually immediately hazardous to mortals. The Silmarilli could be safely handed by anyone with the proper authority to do so and the pure of heart. (Beren wasn't completely pure, so the Silmaril burned his hand, but he still could hold it. The Sons of Fëanor could not - and Morgoth was burned by them through the case they were in!) However, extended wear of the Silmaril or an extended stay in the Undying Lands does actually shorten mortal life span, likened to a fire burning too bright. The Undying Lands themselves aren't having any power on their own, though, and the effect comes from the ones living in there, i.e. the Valar. Had Ar-Pharazôn allowed to move there by the Valar, he wouldn't have become immortal - he would just have died faster. In addition to causing a whole lot of trouble, so that rather he was buried in Calacirya, possibly with the city of Tirion.

Elrond's heritage: As a remaining descendant of Elu Thingol, Elrond would technically be the king of Doriath and the leader of the Sindar. Of course, Doriath is no more and Sindar are no longer exactly a coherent group. As the oldest remaining male descendant of Fingolfin, he would theoretically be the High King of Noldor in Exile (assuming this is the way kingship is inherited). Noldor, of course, have no realms either. It may be assumed that the lordships of the Three Houses of Edain passed to Elros's line.

On the divisions of Elves: We might be familiar with divisions such as Eldar/Avari (those who chose to follow Oromë west and those who refused), Calaquendi/Moriquendi (those who made it to Aman and those who didn't), but there's also the term dúnedhel (Sindarin: pl. dúnedhil: West-Elves) which means those Elves who lived in Beleriand. "High Elves" could mean either Calaquendi or, more likely, the Dúnehdil. The usual Elvish word for "Elf" would be "edhel" (pl. edhil), which is the Sindarin form of "Eldar": All major groups of Elves in the West are essentially of Eldar, even the Wood Elves. Most of them, though, don't qualify as Dúnedhil. Of the known Elves, Glorfindel, Galadriel, possibly Celeborn (depending on the version of the story) and perhaps a limited group of others (possibly Gildor Inglorion) qualify as Calaquendi, and therefore, the Cala/moriquendi division is not used outside of lore.

More lore-tangles: The question of Gildor: Gildor is also known as Inglorion, "son of Inglor". Inglor, in turn, was the name of Finrod Felagund at the time of writing the Lord of the Rings. ("Finrod" was the Elf we know as Finarfin. This little tidbit is somewhat preserved in Finrod's Quenya name Findaráto Ingoldo.) The trouble is that Finrod's wife-to-be stayed in Aman and he thus had no children in Middle-earth. (Elves "know" when they meet the right one, and marry for eternity, as death does not part those who eventually reincarnate.) However, this migth be a non-issue, as with Gildor in the Lord of the Rings, the Finrod to Finarfin and Inglor to Finrod changes were not changed, so he might be "just" someone coming from Nargothrond.

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Originally Posted by Mithfindel

On the Silmarilli and the Undying Lands: Silmaril and the Undying Lands aren't actually immediately hazardous to mortals. The Silmarilli could be safely handed by anyone with the proper authority to do so and the pure of heart. (Beren wasn't completely pure, so the Silmaril burned his hand, but he still could hold it. The Sons of Fëanor could not - and Morgoth was burned by them through the case they were in!)

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I will have to respectfully disagree there, unless, of course, you are coming from a different source than the Silmarillion. If something else written elsewhere contradicts this part of the Silmarillion, please, let me know! I'll gladly look it up and learn something!

But this is what is written in the Silmarillion concerning the Silmarils, in the chapter titles "Of the Silmarils":

Therefore, even in the darkness of the deepest treasury, the Silmarils of their own radiance shone like the stars of Varda; and yet, as were they indeed living things, they rejoiced in light and received it and gave it back in hues more marvellous than before. All who dwelt in Aman were filled with wonder and delight at the work of Feanor. And Varda hallowed the Silmarils, so that thereafter no mortal flesh, nor hands unclean, nor anything of evil will might touch them, but it was scorched and withered; and Mandos foretold that the fates of Arda, earth, sea, and air, lay locked within them.

So, mortal flesh from the beginning was not supposed to be suffered to touch the Silmarils. The sons of Feanor were not able to touch them in the end because of the blood of their kinsmen on their hands; they were unclean. And Morgoth was burned, of course, because he was evil.

I find it interesting that it says that the Silmarils were living things; I had missed that part until now. That also comes into lay in the part about Beren. I looked that section up and admit that I was mistaken. I thought his hand had been burned by it, but apparently, it was not. This comes from the Silmarillion, of Beren and Luthien:

As he [Beren] closed it [the silmaril] in his hand, the radiance welled through his living flesh, and his hand became as a shining lamp; but the jewel suffered his touch and hurt him not.

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Originally Posted by amien

How large was Beleriand exactly?

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Perhaps this map may help you? I found this map on the web some years ago and saved a copy of it:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...beleriand2.jpg

The watermarked portion represents Beleriand, so that you may see where it would be during the Third Age if it had not been sunk. The mountain range on the right hand side of the image is the Ered Luin (Blue Mountains). They were undivided prior to cataclysm at the end of the First Age.

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Originally Posted by amien

Does everything that takes place in the Silmarillion take place on Beleriand?

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Definitely not. The Silmarillion depicts events that occured in Valinor, Númenor, and various parts of Middle-earth. Most of the events of the First Age, however, take place in Beleriand.

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As for the House of Numenor, they came to acquire long life from being around elves and learning from them so much, So when Elindil fled Numenor taking some people with him, did the blood kind of, lose its potency as they bred with normal men and no longer had contact with the Elves?

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The Edain (Elf-friends of the First Age) were granted long life and the island of Númenor as a reward for their aid in the wars against Morgoth. The decline of the Dúnedain, which included the shortening of their lifespan, was a result of their wickedness. The lifespan of the Dúnedain was further decreased after their blood was mingled with that of lesser Men in Middle-earth. Faramir describes the current (late Third Age) condition of the Dúnedain very well in the chapter entitled 'The Window on the West' in The Two Towers.

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I saw someone listed Aragorn and Arwen being lords over the reunited kingdoms of Anor and Gondor, what/where was Arnor?

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Arnor was the North Kingdom of the Dúnedain in Middle-earth. It was comprised of most of Eriador.

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Originally Posted by amien

Why do people argue so hottly over whether or not Balrogs have wings?

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Because Tolkien did not make the matter entirely clear, thus lending credence to arguments on both side of the question.

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What exactly was Tom Bombadil?

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People attempted to answer this question on several other threads in this forum. I suggest you examine them.

Amien, you're not by any chance related to Peregrin Took are you? ;)

The simplest answer regarding Beren and the Silmarils is that the jewel, being living in some form or fashion, chose not to harm him, either because Beren was attempting to bear it away from Morgoth or because it judged him clean according to its own rule. We could go really far afield attempting to explain that, but it makes sense to me.

I've often wondered why there was no High King after Gil-Galad's death in Mordor. Maybe it's because after the siege of Barad-Dur and in the years following, they (being the Noldor) had dwindled to the point where they found it unnecessary. I get that Gil-Galad was the last of his line, but as was said earlier, Elrond is his cousin, the eldest remaining of the House of Fingolfin as we understand it (Galadriel was of the House of Finarfin, Fingolfin's younger brother). And he does in effect lead what is left of the Noldor, just without a title.

Of all of the places Tolkien described, the most striking to me were Beleriand proper, that being the lands below Dorthonion, Hithlum and Himring all the way to the sea and west of the Ered Luin, and of Edoras and Minas Tirith. The LOTR movies, though inaccurate at several points, I think absolutely nailed the look and feel of those two places, which leaves me hoping someone, someday, makes a series about the First Age. :D

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Originally Posted by Mulkfather

I've often wondered why there was no High King after Gil-Galad's death in Mordor. Maybe it's because after the siege of Barad-Dur and in the years following, they (being the Noldor) had dwindled to the point where they found it unnecessary. I get that Gil-Galad was the last of his line, but as was said earlier, Elrond is his cousin, the eldest remaining of the House of Fingolfin as we understand it (Galadriel was of the House of Finarfin, Fingolfin's younger brother). And he does in effect lead what is left of the Noldor, just without a title.

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There wasn't much left to be High King over. The Elves were slowly leaving for the West leaving Lindon a bit of a kingdom in decline. Remember the poem...

'Gil-galad was an Elven-king.
Of him the harpers sadly sing:
The last whose realm was fair and free
Between the mountains and the sea.'

I think this very much sums up the feelings in the Grey Havens after the Last Alliance.

Imladris was intended to be a refuge from the destruction of Eregion by Sauron. Hoisting the banner of the High King of the Noldor over it would only attract the attention of Sauron and his servants, who would likely seek it out and destroy it. Elrond was probably wise enough to see this. Similar had already happened in the wars with Morgoth and Sauron. In addition I don't think Elrond ever longed for that sort of power and rule.

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Originally Posted by amien

Hello all! First off I want to let you all know that I have read the books, but its been a LONG time and I never finished the Silmarillion.

Any-who...

How come Gandalf loses to the Balrog in Moria? The elven king in the Silmarillion cuts down many of them in his rampage into Angband, and Gandalf is a Miar(Spelling)!

Also, it seems like in LOTR, the older you are, the more powerful you are. Hence the Wizards/Sauron/ Galadriel being beacons of hope/dread. Is this an adequate way of looking at things?

I know that in the extended version of RotK, Gandalf gets his butt handed to him by the Witch-king, which is just not right, hence why they took it out :P. BUT I have heard that Gandalf was just as powerful as Sauron, he just didn't really have the confidence to do it.... What do you guys think?

Why is Saruman more powerful than Gandalf in FotR? I don't know who Saruman's Valar is, but I know Gandalf's is Manwe (The leader of the Valar). Is it because Gandalf has physically lived on Middle-Earth for less time than the other wizards?

Thats it.... for now I'm sure more will come, though so subscribe! :D

New Question:
How come Sauruman's orcs are digging the Uruk-hai like Lurtz out of the Mud? I thought that Uruk-hai were corrupted men, and orcs corrupted elves.

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Technically, he didn't 'lose' to the Balrog. But he didn't win either. I guess you'd call it a tie. He slew the Balrog but perished himself at the same time — to be sent back as the more powerful Gandalf the White.

It does seem like the older the being the more power they seem to have. However I think it's more about what race a being is, rather than how old they are.

Gandalf was not as strong as Sauron. As I said earlier, Sauron was a Maia and was actually more powerful than the Istari(the 5 wizards). It was not the Istari's job to take out Sauron. Their mission was to guide elves and men by gaining trust and spreading knowledge, not by ruling them with fear and force.

Saruman was more powerful than Gandalf when he was the Grey. As the White, Saruman was supposed to be the 'head' of the Istari. When Saruman turned, it was clear that he no longer deserved such a position. So when Gandalf fell, he was brought back as 'the White'. Essentially making him more powerful than Saruman because Saruman no longer had the blessing of the Valar.

And as far as I know, the Istari were sent at arount the same time in about T.A. 1100.

Hope this helped!

P.S. It is never said how many Maiar there actually were. It is only said that 5 were sent to Middle Earth. Sauron was named as a Maia, but more powerful than the 5 sent to ME (the Istari). the Maiar are at the same time lesser Valar and the helpers of the (greater) Valar. This implies that there were most definitely more, but they are not named or counted.

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Originally Posted by amien

Big question here:

What exactly was Tom Bombadil?
reading on the Wiki about how lesser creatures would turn invisible with the One Ring, but greater people could become invincible. I know that Tom didn't turn invisible, so would it have made him more powerful than he already was?

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Tom Bombadil's origins in the cosmology of Middle-earth were left vague by Tolkien. He calls himself the "Eldest" and the "Master". He claims to remember "the first raindrop and the first acorn", and "knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside." He does not neatly fit into the categories of beings Tolkien created. Speculative ideas about his true nature range from one of the Ainur, angelic beings (who came after the Dark Lord and shaped the earth), to God, who is called Eru Ilúvatar and "the One" in Tolkien's legendarium although Tolkien rejected the notion that Bombadil is God. This is however reinforced when Frodo asks Goldberry just who Tom Bombadil is, and she responds by simply saying "He is" (much like the biblical statement about Yahweh, "I Am that I Am").

At the Council of Elrond, Galdor suggests that Bombadil would be unable to withstand a siege by Sauron "unless such power is in the earth itself", implying that the character may be a manifestation of Middle-earth's inherent properties. This connection explains Bombadil's seeming obliviousness to the transient concerns of mortals, as evidenced in Gandalf's concern that Tom would not understand the importance of the Ring and would lose it if entrusted with it.

In reference to Bombadil, Tolkien himself said that some things should remain mysterious in any narrative, "especially if an explanation actually exists".

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Originally Posted by amien

Also, what was Glorfindel (Or who ever the RK class was supposedly based off, he's near the last homely house in game, if you walk straight past the house and near the water fall.) The huge amount of hope he gives in-game tells me he's extremely old.

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Glorfindel first appears in Tolkien's fantasy in The Fall of Gondolin about the conquest of the Elven city Gondolin by the Dark Lord Morgoth. It was the first part of The Book of Lost Tales to be written, in 1916–17.[1] As his ideas evolved, Tolkien wrote about this event various times, and it appears in compressed form in The Silmarillion, when many of Tolkien's original ideas had been superseded or abandoned.

From the beginning, Glorfindel appears as a noble lord, known as one of King Turgon's chief lieutenants. In the original Fall of Gondolin, he is called the chief of the House of the Golden Flower. After fighting in the city's defence, Glorfindel escapes together with Tuor, Idril, Eärendil and many others. The survivors pass through the Encircling Mountains above Gondolin. However, they are ambushed by enemies, including a Balrog demon. Glorfindel duels and kills the Balrog, but is himself killed. His body is buried under a mound of stones, set there by the great eagle Thorondor, who lifted him up from the abyss. The Fall of Gondolin relates that "Glorfindel and the Balrog" became an Elven proverb to describe great skill and courage in battle.
In The Fall of Gondolin Tolkien writes that his name "meaneth Goldtress for his hair was golden". Editor Christopher Tolkien comments that "this was from the beginning the meaning of his name", as the character is called "yellow-haired Glorfindel" in The Silmarillion.

In The Silmarillion Glorfindel appears as one of Turgon's captains who oversaw his retreat during the Battle of Unnumbered Tears.


As told in the first volume, The Fellowship of the Ring, Glorfindel is sent by Elrond of Rivendell to help the hobbit Frodo reach Rivendell as he is pursued by the Nazgûl. He sets Frodo on his horse, Asfaloth, and Frodo rides ahead to the other side of the Ford of Bruinen, where he defies his pursuers. He is nearly captured, but Glorfindel, Strider and Frodo's hobbit companions come from behind and drive the Nazgûl into the water, where they are swept away by a wave of water resembling charging horses (an enchantment of Elrond's and Gandalf's). Strider and the hobbits bear torches, but Glorfindel reveals himself as a mighty Elf-lord terrible in his wrath; Frodo sees him as a shining figure.

Later, when Frodo asks about the safety of Imladris from Sauron's forces, Gandalf explains:
'In Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.'

Gandalf points to Glorfindel as one of these, saying he is "one of the mighty of the Firstborn," "an Elf-lord of a house of princes."

While enjoying the hospitality of the Elves, Frodo finds that his Wizard friend spoke true:

"Frodo looked at them in wonder, for he had never before seen Elrond, of whom so many tales spoke; and as they sat upon his right hand and his left, Glorfindel, and even Gandalf, whom he thought he knew so well, were revealed as lords of dignity and power... Glorfindel was tall and straight; his hair was of shining gold, his face fair and young and fearless and full of joy; his eyes were bright and keen, and his voice like music; on his brow sat wisdom, and in his hand was strength."

In the very first draft of the Council of Elrond of what was to become The Fellowship of the Ring, there was a crucial difference in the members of the Fellowship. The Nine Walkers were to comprise Frodo, Gandalf, Trotter (later Strider/Aragorn), Glorfindel, Durin son of Balin (who became Gimli son of Glóin), Sam, Merry and Pippin. Boromir and Legolas did not come in until much later.

Glorfindel was portrayed to be the only one too have killed a 'new generation balrog' single handed after the 'less powerful balrog's slain by Ecthelion. He was known through poems and great ballards throughout all the Elven Kingdoms as 'The Balrog Slayer'.

Legolas replaced Glorfindel as the representation of the Elven people in later drafts, but this did not take away from the power that Tolkien attributed to Glorfindel. He sits in honour next to Elrond and Gandalf in the Hall of Fire in Rivendell, and is one of the few Elves of Imladris who was known to be strong enough to stand against the Ringwraiths and be sent out to guide Frodo to safety from them. Glorfindel is the strongest of these few, as he is sent in the direction that the Nazgûl are most likely to come from, and even holds the Bridge of Mitheithel against some of the Nazgûl single-handedly. Glorfindel is noted for his great power and strength, so much so that Gandalf refers to him in relation to the difficulty of the task of destroying the Ring, though in a rather unusual way. When Elrond seeks to fill the last two spots in the Fellowship with folk of his own house, Gandalf supports Merry Brandybuck and Pippin Took by saying:
"I think, Elrond, that in this matter it would be well to trust rather to their friendship than to great wisdom. Even if you chose for us an elf-lord, such as Glorfindel, he could not storm the Dark Tower, nor open the road to the Fire by the power that is in him."

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Originally Posted by amien

I had thought that the Balrogs were demons morgoth either "Found" or created?

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According to The Silmarillion, the Valaraukar (which were called Balrogs in Middle-Earth) were a type of Maiar that were "scourges of fire". They were seduced by the evil Vala Melkor, who corrupted them to his service in the days of his splendour before the making of Arda.

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Originally Posted by amien

Why is Elrond a High-elf? Or if he isn't, what in particular makes him so famous among the elves. I know that he's half man half elf, but he isn't anywhere as old as Galadriel or Glorfindel

Also, who exactly is Celeborn (Galadriel's husband?)? In the movies and the game itself, everyone kind of ignores the poor guy. Is he a light elf, or has he never seen Aman?

Also, what is to prevent men from sailing to Aman?

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Elrond was Lord of Rivendell, (not 'high elf')one of the mighty rulers of old that remained in Middle-earth in its Third Age. His name means "Vault of Stars", "Star-dome", or "Elf of the Cave" (the exact meaning is uncertain, as Tolkien gave different derivations in different places).
He was the son of Eärendil and Elwing, and a great-grandson of Lúthien, born in Beleriand in the First Age, making him well over 6,000 years old by the time of the events described in The Lord of the Rings. Elrond's twin brother was Elros Tar-Minyatur, the first High King of Númenor.
Although Elrond was considered half-elven, that was not meant to be an exact percentage value; he and his brother Elros were also descended from the Maiar, angelic beings who had come to Middle-earth thousands of years before. Elrond, along with his parents, his brother, and his children, were granted a choice between Elven or human fates by the Valar. Elrond chose to travel into the West and live as an immortal Elf, while his twin Elros chose mortality. (Elros was one of the Half-elven of Middle-earth who chose to become a mortal man, and was later crowned the first High King of Númenor.)

Celeborn's ancestry is not exactly certain. He first appears in The Lord of the Rings, and he does not appear at all in Tolkien's (at the time unpublished) existing legends of the First Age, The Silmarillion. Tolkien felt that for an Elf of Celeborn's importance he had to have a noble ancestry, and spent several years trying to resolve his origins.
Most existing writings portray Celeborn as a Sindarin Elf from Doriath, the kingdom of Thingol. He is described as a "kinsman" of Thingol. That Celeborn and Thingol are remotely related is further alluded to by the fact they both have silver hair, a colour which is never mentioned outside of the royal house of the Sindar. This origin was adopted by Christopher Tolkien and Guy Kay for The Silmarillion when it was decided to publish this book after Tolkien's death, and a new paragraph about Celeborn's marriage to Galadriel was inserted. Exactly how Celeborn could have been a kinsman of Thingol was not mentioned. Celeborn's silver hair, considered a rare colour among the Elves, is particularly noted as associated with the House of Elwë and Olwë. Míriel Serindë, mother of Fëanor, also has silver hair, as did Eärwen, daughter of Olwë, mother of Galadriel. Míriel, by this measure, is possibly related to the Sindar, as she may be, like Eärwen, only Noldor by marriage, as far as is known.
According to one speculative text written by Tolkien, published as part of the Unfinished Tales, Celeborn is the grandson of Thingol's younger brother Elmo (who never appears elsewhere). Elmo is also linked to Círdan, making Círdan another member of the Sindarin royal house.
This simple origin was later changed: in Tolkien's last writings Celeborn is a Telerin Elf from Valinor, then named Teleporno in Telerin Quenya. (This brings him closer to being a peer and equal to Galadriel and makes their partnership seem more balanced.) He meets Galadriel when she is living in the Telerin city Alqualondë, before the rebellion of the Noldor. They decide to travel together to Middle-earth, without asking permission from the Valar to do so. While not involved with the rebellion of the Noldor, because they leave at the same time and without permission (which would certainly not have been granted at that time), Celeborn and Galadriel are caught under the same Ban that prevents them from returning. The name Teleporno was then "Sindarized" as Celeborn: Telerin telep ("silver") (Noldorin Quenya tyelep) was translated to Sindarin keleb (or celeb). In order to be counted as a kinsman of the Sindarin king Thingol, Celeborn must have been part of the family of the Telerin king Olwë, likely one of his sons or grandsons.
This altered origin was not adopted into the published Silmarillion, primarily because it would have necessitated a major rewrite of the earlier parts to account for a separate departure of Galadriel. A further problem was that this descent would have made Celeborn Galadriel's first cousin or uncle (assuming that he was still to be considered closely related to Thingol), and Elves never married close kin.
Celeborn's further history is as unclear as his past: at one point during the Second Age, Celeborn apparently ruled over Elves in Lindon, but it is not certain if he fell under the overlordship of Gil-galad, or ruled (together with Galadriel?) as an independent lord. Celeborn and Galadriel later rule over the Elves of Eregion (at least in some accounts), before settling in Lothlórien.
Celeborn relocated across the Anduin with many of the elves of Lothlórien at the end of the Third Age to found a new, larger realm, 'East Lórien', but left there for Rivendell to join his grandsons Elladan and Elrohir when Galadriel left Middle-earth shortly after this.

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Originally Posted by oldbadgerbrock

Amien, you're not by any chance related to Peregrin Took are you? ;)

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LOL! Or perhaps a Brandybuck! If you are, Amien, you are of good ancestry!

"You'll get information enough, sooner or later. My dear Pippin, no Took ever beat a Brandybuck for inquisitiveness...." - Merry to Pippin, The Two Towers, Chapter 11


"'Mercy,' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?'

'The names of all the stars, and of all living things, and the whole history of Middle-earth and Over-heaven and of the Sundering Seas,' laughed Pippin. 'Of course! What less?' " - Gandalf and Pippin, The Two Towers, chapter 11


"Gandalf laughed. 'A most unquenchable hobbit! All Wizards should have a hobbit or two in their care--to teach them the meaning of the word, and to correct them." - Gandalf to Merry, The Two Towers, chapter 11

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Originally Posted by oldbadgerbrock

Amien, you're not by any chance related to Peregrin Took are you? ;)

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I didn't get it at first, then I started laughing. That was hilarious!

I have a question here:

After Maglor threw the Simaril into the Sea, grief drove him mad and he wandered the shores of the world lamenting his loss. I had read somewhere that he was the greatest surviving Noldo in the Second Age. So, was he alive in the Third Age? He certainly did not seek Aman.

If he did survive, as the Silmarillion implies, why is it said that Feanor's line ended with Celebrimbor?

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Originally Posted by AllySanders

(Of Silmarilli and mortals.)

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We do have two examples of Silmarils not burning mortals: That is, Beren and Lúthien - Lúthien is of course a special case, as she was a Half-Elf/Half-Maia who became a mortal. In any case, Lúthien did wear the Nauglamir, with the recovered Silmaril in it, without being harmed by the gem while she was returned to the world as a mortal.

And then something completely different.

Of Maglor: His fate is open. Chances are he isn't allowed to sail, so if he survived Beleriand's destruction, then he survived into the Second Age. I don't remember that anything would've been written about Maglor past him throwing away the Silmaril rejecting him and wandering in the woods, so it is unknown if he survived into the Third Age, as he effectively disappeared from the lore after the War of Wrath.

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Originally Posted by Warriorpoetex75

According to The Silmarillion, the Valaraukar (which were called Balrogs in Middle-Earth) were a type of Maiar that were "scourges of fire". They were seduced by the evil Vala Melkor, who corrupted them to his service in the days of his splendour before the making of Arda.

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To add: they were spirits of fire before Melkor got to them, and not at all demonic. There were some spirits of that sort who didn't listen to Melkor and stayed in their original state: Arien the Sun-maiden is the named example in the Silmarillion. When she appeared in a physical form (presumably Elf-like, like the one Melian took), her eyes were too bright for even the Eldar to look upon, we're told. Later she appeared 'as a naked flame, terrible in the fullness of her splendour'.

Tolkien simply states that Maglor disappeared from history and was never seen again after wandering off down the shoreline, singing his laments. No one knows what his fate was or if he even survived the destruction of Beleriand--however, that is very possible, as Beleriand didn't actually sink all at once. At any rate, if he did survive into the later ages, he never returned to the northwest regions. Most likely, if he didn't eventually succumb to his own grief, he, like the other elves who lingered in Middle Earth, eventually faded, with his spirit consuming his physical body.

At any rate, its probably a good assumption to make that he never was allowed to return to Valinor. We can also probably safely assume that of all the Noldor who went to Middle Earth, Feanor nor his sons were allowed to be re-imbodied, though the legends say that they will in the ends times when Morgoth returns and the final great battles are waged before Arda is remade. It's said that then, the silmarils will be retrieved from the earth, sea, and air, and that Feanor will give them up to the Valar then.

I always felt that that was kind of sad for Feanor's wife, Nerdanel. She was really married to a jerk! They had seven sons, and he refused to even let one stay behind with her when she refused to follow him into exile, which in turn robbed her of them for the rest of time! That's why, despite knowing that its highly unlikely, I like the fan fic stories that explore the what if idea of Maglor eventually returning to Valinor :) Though I know, in reality, if he ever did, he probably wouldn't have found pardon for his crimes; at least, not until after a very long imprisonment......

What eventually happens to all 3 of the Silmarils?

And in the map that was posted, what is the sunken Island of Doriath? Is that what used to be numenor?

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Originally Posted by amien

What eventually happens to all 3 of the Silmarils?

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I'm quite certain that, if you don't care to look up this information in The Simarillion, you can easily find the answer to that question on the web.

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Originally Posted by amien

And in the map that was posted, what is the sunken Island of Doriath? Is that what used to be numenor?

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Doriath was not an island, rather, it was the realm of Thingol, King of the Sindar. It included a great beechwood forest, Neldoreth, north of the River Esgalduin and a forest of holly-trees named Region. The people of Doriath lived in Menegroth, 'The Thousand Caves', that had been hewn by Dwarves. The realm was protected by a magical barrier, 'The Girdle of Melian', created by Melian the Maia, Thingol's wife. See the Map of Beleriand at the Encyclopedia of Arda. The island of Númenor was far to the west of where Beleriand had been.

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Originally Posted by AllySanders

"'Mercy,' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?'

'The names of all the stars, and of all living things, and the whole history of Middle-earth and Over-heaven and of the Sundering Seas,' laughed Pippin. 'Of course! What less?' " - Gandalf and Pippin, The Two Towers, chapter 11


"Gandalf laughed. 'A most unquenchable hobbit! All Wizards should have a hobbit or two in their care--to teach them the meaning of the word, and to correct them." - Gandalf to Merry, The Two Towers, chapter 11

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It was indeed these statements by Gandalf that inspired my question about Amien's ancestry. Her inquistiveness is unquenchable! :D

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Originally Posted by oldbadgerbrock

Doriath was not an island, rather, it was the realm of Thingol, King of the Sindar. It included a great beechwood forest, Neldoreth, north of the River Esgalduin and a forest of holly-trees named Region. The people of Doriath lived in Menegroth, 'The Thousand Caves', that had been hewn by Dwarves. The realm was protected by a magical barrier, 'The Girdle of Melian', created by Melian the Maia, Thingol's wife. See the Map of Beleriand at the Encyclopedia of Arda. The island of Númenor was far to the west of where Beleriand had been.

His inquistiveness is unquenchable! :D

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My sig is very old, sorry :P

Ahh I was looking at the map completely wrong. haha!
Now I see just how massive beleriand was...

Thank you for answering the Questions about Elrond, I never knew that his line got to choose whether to be mortal or immortal. That was always a huge amount of confusion about Arwen debating on whether to become a mortal for Aragorn.

What was the point of the Evenstar? I know in the books she gave the Necklace to Frodo instead of Aragorn.
What was the point of the Necklace she gives him?


Lastly, what is the stone the Galadriel gives Frodo? She refers to it as "Our most beloved star" iirc.

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Originally Posted by amien

What was the point of the Evenstar? I know in the books she gave the Necklace to Frodo instead of Aragorn.
What was the point of the Necklace she gives him?

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In the movies, the jewelled pendant was given to Aragorn as a symbol of inspiration and motivation.....something to remind him of his true identity and their love....

In the books, she gives Frodo her necklace, symbolizing the fact that since she chose mortality and to die with Aragorn in Middle Earth, he (Frodo) can take her place in the ship that would take him to the Undying Lands....since the Ring had affected the ring bearers permanently, they were allowed to sail to the Undying Lands in honor of their service to the Eldar.....and to cure their weariness of life.....so in simpler words, since she chooses not to go on that ship to the Undying Lands, she gives him permission to leave Middle Earth and sail in her place if he chooses to....

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Lastly, what is the stone the Galadriel gives Frodo? She refers to it as "Our most beloved star" iirc.

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The stone or rather phial that Galadriel gives Frodo is filled with the water from Galadriel Mirror......in that phial is caught the light of the Star of Earendil.....brightest of the stars.....the phial has an enchantment which makes it glow brighter in the darkest places, and at times when its user is in most need of light.....just like Earendil's star shines in the sky......

Earendil was the famous seafarer and father of Elrond who built a ship "Vingilot" with Cirdan's help and sailed across to Aman to request help from the Valar against Morgoth.....when that task was fulfilled and the ship set sail into the heavens it glittered and shone and as people saw it from afar like a bright star, apparently because Earendil had one of the Silmarils taken from Morgoth by Beren & Luthien.....the star was called Star of High Hope and it sails the heavens for all time......and since then the Elves have called Earendil's star as their "most beloved star".....

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Originally Posted by amien

What was the point of the Evenstar?

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The Evenstar jewel that was featured in Peter Jackson's movies does not appear in Tolkien's novel. Evenstar, or Undómiel in Sindarin, is one of the names given to Arwen.

However, in the novel Arwen had given a green jewel, the Elessar, to her grandmother Galadriel to give to Aragorn. The jewel was set in a silver brooch in the form of an eagle. Galadriel gives it to Aragorn before he departs Lothlórien:

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'Yet maybe this will lighten your heart,' said Galadriel, 'for it was left in my care to be given to you, should you pass through this land.' Then she lifted from her hap a great stone of clear green, set in a silver brooch that was wrought in the likeness of an eagle with outspread wings; and as she held it up the gem flashed like the sun shining ghrough the leaves of spring. 'This stone I gave to Celebrían my daughter, and she to hers; and now it comes to you as a token of hope. In this hour take the name that was foretold to you, Elessar, the Elfstone of the house of Elendil!'

Then Aragorn took the stone and pinned the brooch upon his breast, and those who saw him wondered; for they had not marked before how tall and kingly he stood, and it seemed to him that many years of toil had fallen from his shoulders. 'For the gifts that you have given me I thank you,' he said, 'O Lady of Lórien of whom were sprung Celebrían and Arwen Evenstar. What praise could I say more?'

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Tolkien, J.R.R. 'Farewell to Lórien'. The Fellowship of the Ring.

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Originally Posted by amien

I know in the books she gave the Necklace to Frodo instead of Aragorn. What was the point of the Necklace she gives him?

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Indeed, Arwen gives a white jewel to Frodo before he departs Minas Tirith. It apparently would temporarily ease his mind from the loss of the Ring:

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If your hurts grieve you still and the memory of your burden is heavy, then you may pass into the West, until all your wounds and weariness are healed. But wear this now in memory of Elfstone and Evenstar with whom your life has been woven!'

And she took a white gem like a star that lay upon her breast hanging upon a silver chain, and she set the chain about Frodo's neck. 'When the memory of the fear and the darkness troubles you,' she said, 'this will bring you aid.'

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Tolkien, J.R.R. 'Many Partings'. The Return of the King.

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Originally Posted by amien

Lastly, what is the stone the Galadriel gives Frodo? She refers to it as "Our most beloved star" iirc.

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It is not a stone, but a glass containing water from her mirror containing the reflection of the light of Eärendil, that was the morning and evening star.

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'And you, Ring-bearer,' she said, turning to Frodo. 'I come to you last who are not last in my thoughts. for you I have prepared this.' She held up a small crystal phial: it glittered as she moved it, and rays of white light spring from her hand. 'In this phial,' she said, 'is caught the light of Earendil's star, set amid the waters of my fountain. It will shine still brighter when night is about you. May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out. Remember Galadriel and her Mirror!'

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Tolkien, J.R.R. 'Farewell to Lórien'. The Fellowship of the Ring.

According to Tolkien's mythology this star was the Halfelf Eärendil sailing the heavens in his ship Vingilot with a Silmaril bound to his brow. Tolkien, who was a professor of Anglo-Saxon at Oxford University, drew the name Eärendil from an Anglo-Saxon poem 'Crist':

éala éarendel engla beorhtast ofer middangeard monnum sended

(Hail Earendel, brightest of angels, over Middle-earth to men sent.)

Astronomers have since learned that Earendel was not a star, but rather the planet Venus.

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Originally Posted by amien

What eventually happens to all 3 of the Silmarils?

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Earendil carries one Silmaril as he sails in the Heavens. One Silmarilwas thrown into the depths of the Earth with Meadhros, as the pain caused by the Silmaril burning his hand drove him mad. Maglor threw his Silmaril into the Sea, but did not throw himself in, though it burned his hand too.

The Silmaril are recovered after the final Dagor Dagorath (which is yet to come in our world according to Tolkien). These are broken by Feanor and the Light of the Two Trees is restored by Yavanna. The material of which the Simarilli were made is also revealed.

I think it's really similar how Meadhros and the Simaril fell into the Cracks of the Earth, and how Gollum and the Ring fell into Mount Doom. Could it be that the event was a comparison to Gollum's fate? Could it be that Gollum's "Good Side" was symbolically burned as he recieved the Ring and barred any chances of redemption? And that was what drove him mad and caused him to actually jump into the flames?

Remember, the Lord of the Rings is not "accurate" as it was, fictionally, written by Frodo (Red Book of Westmarch). If what I said is true, then I will see Gollum completely differently from now on :D

Great thread btw!

Someone had asked about Cirdan...he is a kinsman of Olwe and Elwe having occompanied them from the east. He is most likely the oldest elf in Middle Earth. After Elwe(Thingol) became lost and Olwe became leader, he was going to follow Olwe to Aman until he received a message from the Valar in a dream bidding him to stay. He and those that stayed became the Falathrim and this is when he took the name Cirdan, which means Shipwright. I think his name prior to Cirdan was Nowe but I'm not sure of the source so I may be wrong.

Since we're on the topic of Balrogs and Gandalf, there is always one thing I've wondered about....

When Gandalf is facing Durin's Bane, he says "I'm the servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the Flame of Anor...The Dark Power will not avail you, Flame of Udun"

In that quote, Secret Fire is obviously the Flame Imperishable, which gave life to all the Children of Illuvatar.....so that would mean Gandalf is claiming to be the servant of Eru himself....

But what exactly is Flame of Anor?.....if Anor is translated and assumed to mean "Sun", that means Gandalf wields a power of the Flame of the Sun or something to that effect?

Also, if I am not very mistaken, "Udun" means "West" (or I wonder if thats "Udan").....which cant be the translation there.....what does Flame of Udun mean?....:confused:

The flame refers to the balrog itself, Udûn is Sindarin for Utumno, the first fortress of Morgoth.

I always thought the Secret Fire refered to ring Narya.

"Wielder of the Flame of Anor" could very well be a reference to Narya, the Elven-ring that Círdan entrusted to Gandalf. It was known as the Ring of Fire and gave its wielder the power to endure evil, and to stand in the face of fear.

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Originally Posted by brianvencill

"Wielder of the Flame of Anor" could very well be a reference to Narya, the Elven-ring that Círdan entrusted to Gandalf. It was known as the Ring of Fire and gave its wielder the power to endure evil, and to stand in the face of fear.

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yes, this is the general assumption of what tolkien was hinting at

I've seen Udun/Utumno translated as Hell or Hades before. No clue where it was right now, I'll post a link if I find one. I know it was pre-Internet, though, so it's been quite some time, and was in a book.

/old

Cool thread. :)

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Originally Posted by Ironcrown

I always thought the Secret Fire refered to ring Narya.

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No, the Secret Fire definitely does not refer to Narya. Silverblade's statement...

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Originally Posted by silverblade5445

In that quote, Secret Fire is obviously the Flame Imperishable, which gave life to all the Children of Illuvatar.

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...is what most Tolkien scholars believe to be accurate, or close to it.

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So Ilúvatar said to [the Ainur]: 'Of the theme that I have declared to you...And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme...'

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Source: Tolkien, J.R.R. (author). Tolkien, Christopher (editor). 'Ainulindalë'. The Silmarillion.

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Therefore Ilúvatar gave to their vision Being, and set it amid the Void, and the Secret Fire was sent to burn at the heart of the World; and it was called Eä.

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Source: Tolkien. 'Valaquenta'. Op. cit..

I'm glad people are starting to pose their own questions on here, because I'm actually running out :P!

One thing that I've always wondered is what happens to Legolas and Gimli. I didn't think Legolas sailed west, instead I thought him and Gimli took a tour of middle earth together. Gimli would show him the beauty under the earth in the Glittering Caverns, and Legolas would show Gimli the beauty of Fangorn.... Right?

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Originally Posted by amien

I'm glad people are starting to pose their own questions on here, because I'm actually running out :P!

One thing that I've always wondered is what happens to Legolas and Gimli. I didn't think Legolas sailed west, instead I thought him and Gimli took a tour of middle earth together. Gimli would show him the beauty under the earth in the Glittering Caverns, and Legolas would show Gimli the beauty of Fangorn.... Right?

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they both remained good friends and did that tour...also gimli became the first lord of the glittering caves and set up a colony there
they also departed middle earth together

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Originally Posted by brianvencill

"Wielder of the Flame of Anor" could very well be a reference to Narya, the Elven-ring that Círdan entrusted to Gandalf. It was known as the Ring of Fire and gave its wielder the power to endure evil, and to stand in the face of fear.

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Yes, that was actually my first thought.....that Narya could be the Flame of Anor.....

But for two reasons I couldnt make up my mind for sure.....first, Narya, alongwith the two other elven rings is supposed to be kept extremely secret......from EVERYONE....Elrond even refuses to talk about it inside Rivendell where no one could possibly overhear.....let alone the enemy.....then why would Gandalf announce the fact that he's wielding Narya to one of the most powerful evil creature of that time.....I doubt if he actually forsaw falling with the Balrog and fighting him to death.....so if Gandalf was going to think of walking out of there without killing the Balrog, he wouldnt give away the ring's identity, would he?

and secondly, why would Narya be called flame of "anor"?.....I mean ok, Ring of Fire, Flame of something.....makes sense.....but still dont see sufficent relation between Narya and the Sun.... :confused:

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Originally Posted by silverblade5445

and secondly, why would Narya be called flame of "anor"?.....I mean ok, Ring of Fire, Flame of something.....makes sense.....but still dont see sufficent relation between Narya and the Sun.... :confused:

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The Ring of Fire wasn't a weapon: the 'fire' was its ability to rekindle hope and courage. As Gandalf wields both light and fire against the Enemy, I imagine that he was referring to some aspect of his own power.

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Originally Posted by richsabre

they both remained good friends and did that tour...also gimli became the first lord of the glittering caves and set up a colony there
they also departed middle earth together

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I didn't think the Dwarves were allowed to sail to Aman?

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Originally Posted by amien

I didn't think the Dwarves were allowed to sail to Aman?

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They werent....

But because of his very close friendship with Legolas, as well as having earned the favor of Galadriel, its supposed that she being a highly important elf, gained the permission for him to sail with Legolas.....

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Originally Posted by amien

I didn't think Legolas sailed west, instead I thought him and Gimli took a tour of middle earth together.

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Tolkien wrote it in such a way that it is not definite, but it is generally believed that after Aragorn's death Legolas and Gimli sailed to Aman:

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Here follows one of the last notes in the Red Book

We have heard tell that Legolas took Gimli Glóin's son with him because of their great friendship, greater than any that has been between Elf and Dwarf...But it is said that Gimli went also out of desire to see again the beauty of Galadriel; and it may be that she, being mighty among the Eldar, obtained this grace for him. More cannot be said of this matter.

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Source: Tolkien, J.R.R. 'Appendix A, III, Durin's Folk'. The Lord of the Rings.

Naturally, neither Gimli, Frodo, Bilbo, nor Sam would attain immortality by going to the Undying Lands. They would still die a natural death.

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Originally Posted by silverblade5445

They werent....

But because of his very close friendship with Legolas, as well as having earned the favor of Galadriel, its supposed that she being a highly important elf, gained the permission for him to sail with Legolas.....

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Can you imagine the "discussions" with Aule? I bet there wasn't a full keg to be found in all of Aman! LOL! :)

Guesswork on Udûn: the ^ has the same meaning as ´ when translitterating Elvish - that is, a long vowel. U- is negation. Therefore, as dún- is west, Udûn has a possible translation of "un-west" - the opposite of the West. Angband, in turn, is translated as "iron prison" and is often called "Hells of Iron". In some very oldest manuscripts where the Valar were still gods, Angband was a very literal Hell.

Of course, in "the Flame of Udûn" the reference is both to Utumno and as Morgoth being the Enemy of the Valar. The Flame of Anor is discussed briefly in http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/f/flameofanor.html with the same conclusions that popped up here. It might also be just a rhetoric device, referring to the Balrog's kindred spirit (Ariel, guardian of the Sun) standing against the darkness.

As for mortals in the Undying Land, my understanding is that instead of immortality, they would die faster (similar effect is hinted at Lúthien's death when carrying the Silmaril as a mortal).

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Originally Posted by Ironcrown

Can you imagine the "discussions" with Aule? I bet there wasn't a full keg to be found in all of Aman! LOL! :)

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Hahaha! That would be hillarious indeed.

So if your race wasn't immortal, you wouldn't become immortal from living in Aman, under the light of the Valar?

Also, what was the purpose of Galadriel giving Gimli 3 strands of her hair? Did it do anything for him, or was he just mesmerized by her beauty?

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Originally Posted by Mithfindel

Guesswork on Udûn: the ^ has the same meaning as ´ when translitterating Elvish - that is, a long vowel. U- is negation. Therefore, as dún- is west, Udûn has a possible translation of "un-west" - the opposite of the West.

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There's no need for wild speculations, "union" is not the opposite of "ion". ;) Udûn comes from Utumno, as far as I know there is no abstract concept of West that would make un-west a viable thing. Udûn is also the name of the valley right behind the Black Gate but surely that's not the place where the balrog is supposed to be from.

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Originally Posted by amien

Also, what was the purpose of Galadriel giving Gimli 3 strands of her hair? Did it do anything for him, or was he just mesmerized by her beauty?

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Asking for a lady's favour so courteously was a very chivalrous thing to do. There was a girlish streak to Galadriel (Sam mentions that later) and I imagine she was flattered, and touched to hear such words coming from a Dwarf, of all people. Plus he was, of course, going into great peril on behalf of all of them and to bear her token with him would lend him courage, I imagine.

As for Gimli, yes, he'd been smitten by her beauty. But the purpose was as he said, just a keepsake, that if he survived to return home would be set in crystal and become an heirloom of his house, and a pledge of good will between Dwarves and Elves forever after. The value was symbolic, as such things are.

Galadriel's hair didn't have any magical properties, though it was said to have been extremely beautiful--it seemed to catch the light of the two trees in the tresses and was the inspiration behind Feanor's creation of the silmarils.

But no, the 3 strands she gave Gimli had no magical properties--they were simply given to him because he asked them as a memorial to her beauty in Middle Earth. He said he was going to encase them in crystal.

what I find highly ironic on that subject was the fact that she gave Gimli 3 of her hairs but refused to give a single hair to Feanor, her uncle :)

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Originally Posted by AllySanders

what I find highly ironic on that subject was the fact that she gave Gimli 3 of her hairs but refused to give a single hair to Feanor, her uncle :)

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That is quite funny, maybe after all those years, Galadriel wasn't so straight laced! :o

So to get this straight, the Istari were a type of Maiar who were weaker than Maiar because they were only mortal shells on Middle Earth with limits on their real power.... right?

According to the Silmarillion, if I understand it correctly, Melkor was evil from the start and created evil later on by causing discord and cacophony that resulted in things like the Balrogs and more powerful beings like Ungoliant?

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Originally Posted by amien

That is quite funny, maybe after all those years, Galadriel wasn't so straight laced! :o

So to get this straight, the Istari were a type of Maiar who were weaker than Maiar because they were only mortal shells on Middle Earth with limits on their real power.... right?

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Not really a 'type', just the collective word for those guys in Middle-earth. They were stuck with looking like spry old men, yes but they were only enjoined not to use their real power, not limited as such. The plan wasn't to oppose Sauron's power directly with their own, so striding around blowing stuff up would have been so not on-mission unless they had no other choice. You can tell that Gandalf hadn't been weakened because he defeated the Balrog, another Maia and one which wasn't shy about using its power, so his power was obviously there when he needed it.

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According to the Silmarillion, if I understand it correctly, Melkor was evil from the start and created evil later on by causing discord and cacophony that resulted in things like the Balrogs and more powerful beings like Ungoliant?

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Melkor was proud and jealous; that led him to desire Iluvatar's power of creation for himself, as he couldn't accept that he, mightiest of the Valar as he then was, should be denied anything. That was what led him to fill the Great Music with discord, and to keep vandalizing the world while the other Valar were trying to make it a thing of beauty, and eventually to start doing things that were truly evil rather than just bad.

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Originally Posted by Reniannen

There's no need for wild speculations, "union" is not the opposite of "ion". ;) Udûn comes from Utumno, as far as I know there is no abstract concept of West that would make un-west a viable thing. Udûn is also the name of the valley right behind the Black Gate but surely that's not the place where the balrog is supposed to be from.

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The Uttermost West (Aman) is not an abstract concept in-universe, as it's there (though only Elves can get there, with a few exceptions). However, etymologically (in-universe) it just seems to be a coincidence, even if many names do have meanings - after all, one of the ways I understand the Professor worked was by first figuring out words and then meanings or significance (though in LotR, many words are just recycled from his other works). Apparently, the actual root (TUB-) has the meaning of "deep valley" (which well might be even more fitting for the LotR Udûn, Utumno might be emphasizing the "deep" part).