Why no more updates on the transfers/server closures?

[Amrundir]

A copy is just a another form of a transfer, a transfer is just another form of copying. I wonder just what Code Masters did to the EU character DB. How it is organized, what index keys are being used, what structure is used such that data transfer is prevented? Do I expect Turbine to answer that question, no. But I do wonder.

There was an answer long ago. Sapience said, it's in the data itself.


I guess, there need to be some indexes/keys/IDs unique across all servers. That was the case at the beginning, but it broke at some point. (This must not be necessarily been Codemaster. Turbine always programmed the game and provided the updates. It's also possible they made a mistake.)


Why do I think that?
There was a discussion about failed Bullroarer transfers.
Lets say, you have an unique item in a characters inventory, copy that character to bullroarer. Then on live server you give that item to another char, the copy of the second char will fail, because the item (with it's unique ID) already exists on Bullroarer. (That's not a problem on live server transfers, because you won't have access to the first char on the original server anymore)


So I think, transfers between EU/NA servers could work for some characters and not for others. But there is a high risk for fail and thus turbine prohibits these transfers in general.

[Vyvyanne]

"Where are the servers moving?"

So I will answer this question. Part of the delay is that we are doing a multistage move of servers from the Boston area to a location in New Jersey for our US servers and from Boston to Amsterdam for the EU servers. This is not just a new location but new hardware, new transfer service, OS upgrades, etc. A LOT of work And it is not just LOTRO getting this treatment, thus the delays as Turbine level teams handle the gigantic move.

In the meantime the LOTRO specific team is focusing on completing Update 16 and getting it into beta in the next few weeks.

So while we focus on that release and give the other teams a chance to move through more of the set-up work where will probably be little new info on the transfers. Once U16 is shipped we will be closer to testing the new transfer features and able to give this effort our full attention as well as give you more regular updates and details as they shake out.

Thank you for understanding,
Vyvyanne

[Decaran]

In the meantime the LOTRO specific team is focusing on completing Update 16 and getting it into beta in the next few weeks.

So while we focus on that release and give the other teams a chance to move through more of the set-up work where will probably be little new info on the transfers. Once U16 is shipped we will be closer to testing the new transfer features and able to give this effort our full attention as well as give you more regular updates and details as they shake out.

Thank you for understanding,
Vyvyanne

Glad to hear this! Was just wondering yesterday when we would be hearing about upcoming content. Hopefully we get some more info soon, and thanks for your work Vyvyanne

[Galadhloth]

So I will answer this question. Part of the delay is that we are doing a multistage move of servers from the Boston area to a location in New Jersey for our US servers

I knew it!! I knew the awesomeness of New Jersey would eventually be fully appreciated.

In all seriousness, thanks for the update and good luck to everyone with all the work!

[cdq1958]

There was an answer long ago. Sapience said, it's in the data itself.


I guess, there need to be some indexes/keys/IDs unique across all servers. That was the case at the beginning, but it broke at some point. (This must not be necessarily been Codemaster. Turbine always programmed the game and provided the updates. It's also possible they made a mistake.)


Why do I think that?
There was a discussion about failed Bullroarer transfers.
Lets say, you have an unique item in a characters inventory, copy that character to bullroarer. Then on live server you give that item to another char, the copy of the second char will fail, because the item (with it's unique ID) already exists on Bullroarer. (That's not a problem on live server transfers, because you won't have access to the first char on the original server anymore)


So I think, transfers between EU/NA servers could work for some characters and not for others. But there is a high risk for fail and thus turbine prohibits these transfers in general.

My memory is getting fuzzy, but way back when, it was said that, to Turbine's dismay, when they parted ways with Codemasters and got that data, Codie's schema and Turbine's were hopelessly incompatible due to Codies not following Turbine's guidelines. That happened in 2011, if I am remembering correctly. My first beta here was the F2P one. I cannot remember how that was handled Codie's vs. Turbine on BR. What I do remember, better, is that betas after that one were always done in Turbine format. EU people had to use the services of the Tavern to test, while NA people could have characters copied, but even then the copies were one-way and shallow. As time went on and more shared storage and shared items were introduced, said copying meant that even the NA folk would have copy failures or have to use Tavern services to replace stuff that could not be copied.

Again, my memory is getting fuzzy, but either the RoR beta or the HD one introduced the ability of changing the BR format from one to the other. When BR was NA, only NA folk could copy. When BR was EU, only EU folk could copy. Eventually a way was made for BR to be able to make copies from either to BR format, which meant failures happened often but were tolerable given the frequent wipes and the Tavern services could always be used. Naturally, that could not be tolerated in the live system, so the automated copy process, today, is a one-way (at a time) transfer from NA to NA or EU to EU or copy both to BR.

Bottom line? I agree with your surmise. Some characters could copy from NA to EU or EU to NA in certain limited and not always knowable circumstances such that it is better to not allow it until a breakthrough is found sufficient to make the net present value of the time/money/effort have an acceptable current internal rate of return versus other competing wants/needs/goals.

[Adrionos]

i can wait for U16 , but its better to take the Servers to Amsterdam

so we can better play and closed some servers , its for all our playing bettter -----------> please do it first


we dont need U16 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Snowlock]

"Where are the servers moving?"

So I will answer this question. Part of the delay is that we are doing a multistage move of servers from the Boston area to a location in New Jersey for our US servers and from Boston to Amsterdam for the EU servers. This is not just a new location but new hardware, new transfer service, OS upgrades, etc. A LOT of work And it is not just LOTRO getting this treatment, thus the delays as Turbine level teams handle the gigantic move.

In the meantime the LOTRO specific team is focusing on completing Update 16 and getting it into beta in the next few weeks.

So while we focus on that release and give the other teams a chance to move through more of the set-up work where will probably be little new info on the transfers. Once U16 is shipped we will be closer to testing the new transfer features and able to give this effort our full attention as well as give you more regular updates and details as they shake out.

Thank you for understanding,
Vyvyanne

Quick question, why does the server farm move have to be dependent new transfer features? Doesn't launching both at the same time increase the chance for issues for both? New transfer system is fine and dandy. But please improve performance first.

[istvana]

>I knew it!! I knew the awesomeness of New Jersey would eventually be fully appreciated<

YES!!!!

[God_Of_Wargs]

"Where are the servers moving?"

So I will answer this question. Part of the delay is that we are doing a multistage move of servers from the Boston area to a location in New Jersey for our US servers and from Boston to Amsterdam for the EU servers. This is not just a new location but new hardware, new transfer service, OS upgrades, etc. A LOT of work And it is not just LOTRO getting this treatment, thus the delays as Turbine level teams handle the gigantic move.

In the meantime the LOTRO specific team is focusing on completing Update 16 and getting it into beta in the next few weeks.

So while we focus on that release and give the other teams a chance to move through more of the set-up work where will probably be little new info on the transfers. Once U16 is shipped we will be closer to testing the new transfer features and able to give this effort our full attention as well as give you more regular updates and details as they shake out.

Thank you for understanding,
Vyvyanne

This troubles me: You say Update 16 is being completed and close to shipped, yet Jinjaah has made posts on these forums (back before U15 was released) about how he would come to us and we would have a discussion on the forums about how to approach PvMP and the major issues involved, and how to move forward with many things, one of them being incorporating essence-type gear into the moors and the fate of the much-hated audacity (just like the Radiance system was despised).

Here is a link (https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...me-to-talk-yet) to the thread in the Monster Play forums where it shows screenshots of Jinjaah's posts - on October 13, 2004 - where he says we will "talk about these issue in the upcoming weeks." That was back in early October of 2014. It's now late in March of 2015.

And yet, you say that Update 16 is getting close to completed and shipped. Like many others, I'm extremely worried about this. Nearly every update has included some form of change to PVP, usually always being a horrible idea and horrible implementation, resulting in worse and worse PVP ever since the Siege of Mirkwood days. Jinjaah promised that we would "talk about these issues," yet this was six months ago. Like many of us had worried about, if we were going to have a serious discussion about this kind of thing, it would need to happen long before U16 was ready or close to complete, as by that time, things would have already long been set in place and there would be no way for us to weigh in on whether the decisions regarding PvMP are good/bad (horrible, if history, is any indication).

There are multiple posts in the thread I'm linking that talk about this very issue - that a long, long time ago was the time for Jinjaah to do what he said - to sit down and "discuss" these matters with us, as simply giving us a list of release notes (which are usually horrible and look like they've been made up by someone who has no idea how PvMP works and what it needs), and posts that discuss the fear that this exact thing was going to happen. And just as we all predicted, the exact thing we thought seem to be happening.

Please take a look at the following thread:

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...me-to-talk-yet

[AccessDenied]

Quick question, why does the server farm move have to be dependent new transfer features? Doesn't launching both at the same time increase the chance for issues for both? New transfer system is fine and dandy. But please improve performance first.

Obviously I'm not a Turbine employee, but my guess is...

The new hardware is making the changes to the new transfer system possible. While separating these two projects might seem logical for streamlined implementation, Vyvyanne has already stated that some of the transfer system will be in a new Launcher. So it makes more sense to put all the inter-related changes into one upgrade. Otherwise you've got a fragmented development process which increases the likelihood of errors creeping in. Afterwords, extensive testing is required; no one wants the new servers or Launcher to fail.

Because of the longer than normal testing period for the above (as compared to an Update), Update 16's release (and any Festivals along the way) need to take place to keep the rest of the game's content on track, time wise. Otherwise we'll have Update 16 and Festivals in September.

Jinjaah

Ok, I could be wrong here, but I thought I had read a post a couple months ago that stated Jimjaah was one of the employees who was laid off. I hope for your sake that I'm wrong.

[Brandon_Blackbird]

Ok, I could be wrong here, but I thought I had read a post a couple months ago that stated Jimjaah was one of the employees who was laid off. I hope for your sake that I'm wrong.

Jinjaah is most definitely still gainfully employed by Turbine.

[Snowlock]

Obviously I'm not a Turbine employee, but my guess is...

Would rather hear from Vyv, wouldn't you?

[Macroscian]

Would rather hear from Vyv, wouldn't you?

There's just less potential for stuff to go wrong.

[Vyvyanne]

"Can transfer system and server build out be separated?"

Yes, they can. However the new hardware and location will be better set up to handle increased numbers, thus we do not want to encourage a large migration with the new transfer system until that hardware is in place and ready to go. And for those saying do this before Update 16, the hardware build out is a team that does not touch game code. Delaying 16 would do nothing to speed up the process of the build out.

"Update 16 is getting ready fr launch but no public discussion about PvMP has occurred"
Correct. The PvMP improvements are not part of Update 16, they will come after.

[God_Of_Wargs]

"Can transfer system and server build out be separated?"

Yes, they can. However the new hardware and location will be better set up to handle increased numbers, thus we do not want to encourage a large migration with the new transfer system until that hardware is in place and ready to go. And for those saying do this before Update 16, the hardware build out is a team that does not touch game code. Delaying 16 would do nothing to speed up the process of the build out.

"Update 16 is getting ready fr launch but no public discussion about PvMP has occurred"
Correct. The PvMP improvements are not part of Update 16, they will come after.

I don't understand. The PvMP improvements were supposed to be a part of Update 15, but were pushed back, and as Jinjaah said, we would be talking about them after Update 15 had been launched, in order to get them ready to ship for Update 16.

Now you're saying that not only are they not a part of Update 15, they are not being discussed after Update 15, and they are not a part of Update 16 either? They will come "after update 16?" How long after? Will they ever come, or is this just dangling a carrot in front of us that we're never going to reach?

Remember, these comments were made back in early October of 2014. That's over 5 months ago since he said we would be discussing the PvMP updates in the "upcoming weeks" back on October 13th, 2014.

[Leixy]

I don't understand. The PvMP improvements were supposed to be a part of Update 15, but were pushed back, and as Jinjaah said, we would be talking about them after Update 15 had been launched, in order to get them ready to ship for Update 16.

Now you're saying that not only are they not a part of Update 15, they are not being discussed after Update 15, and they are not a part of Update 16 either? They will come "after update 16?" How long after? Will they ever come, or is this just dangling a carrot in front of us that we're never going to reach?

I think you are forgetting that a big shift happened between October and the end of December, namely, a new exec producer who had grander ideas than Jinjaah's PvMP improvements for U15.2 he discussed in October.

I'm guessing his ideas are helping mold the larger shift for the pvmp updates after U16.

[siipperi]

"Can transfer system and server build out be separated?"

Yes, they can. However the new hardware and location will be better set up to handle increased numbers, thus we do not want to encourage a large migration with the new transfer system until that hardware is in place and ready to go. And for those saying do this before Update 16, the hardware build out is a team that does not touch game code. Delaying 16 would do nothing to speed up the process of the build out.

"Update 16 is getting ready fr launch but no public discussion about PvMP has occurred"
Correct. The PvMP improvements are not part of Update 16, they will come after.

Thanks for the update. Happy to hear pvmp improvements are still coming, even if not official word on the new map and its state.


Edit. Indeed if osgiliath pvp ever happens they are surely going to bring essence armor on that, not sooner.

[Almagnus1]

"Can transfer system and server build out be separated?"

Yes, they can. However the new hardware and location will be better set up to handle increased numbers, thus we do not want to encourage a large migration with the new transfer system until that hardware is in place and ready to go. And for those saying do this before Update 16, the hardware build out is a team that does not touch game code. Delaying 16 would do nothing to speed up the process of the build out.

"Update 16 is getting ready fr launch but no public discussion about PvMP has occurred"
Correct. The PvMP improvements are not part of Update 16, they will come after.

When are you going to stop stringing us along with vapor-ware PvMP changes?

We've been promised stuff for so long, without delivery mind you, that only a fool would believe anything beyond maintenance changes are coming for PvMP.

[Leixy]

When are you going to stop stringing us along with vapor-ware PvMP changes?

We've been promised stuff for so long, without delivery mind you, that only a fool would believe anything beyond maintenance changes are coming for PvMP.

Since PvMP players have been slighted and out-right lied too by Turbine and the Exec Producers for 6 years, I hope Vyvyanne won't be the same, but we shall see.

[Snowlock]

"Can transfer system and server build out be separated?"

Yes, they can. However the new hardware and location will be better set up to handle increased numbers, thus we do not want to encourage a large migration with the new transfer system until that hardware is in place and ready to go. And for those saying do this before Update 16, the hardware build out is a team that does not touch game code. Delaying 16 would do nothing to speed up the process of the build out.

"Update 16 is getting ready fr launch but no public discussion about PvMP has occurred"
Correct. The PvMP improvements are not part of Update 16, they will come after.

I'm not saying do the transfers before the upgrade, I'm saying do them after; way after, the upgrade. You're building a new garage and buying a new car for it at the same time. Build first; less chance of things going wrong.

[Nymphonic]

"Can transfer system and server build out be separated?"

Yes, they can. However the new hardware and location will be better set up to handle increased numbers, thus we do not want to encourage a large migration with the new transfer system until that hardware is in place and ready to go. And for those saying do this before Update 16, the hardware build out is a team that does not touch game code. Delaying 16 would do nothing to speed up the process of the build out.

"Update 16 is getting ready fr launch but no public discussion about PvMP has occurred"
Correct. The PvMP improvements are not part of Update 16, they will come after.

Thanks for answering that, I was wondering too.

[Thorgrum]

When are you going to stop stringing us along with vapor-ware PvMP changes?

We've been promised stuff for so long, without delivery mind you, that only a fool would believe anything beyond maintenance changes are coming for PvMP.

When your target audience allows its self to be strung along why would you stop? Lotro PvP is filled with fools mate.

[Patrickwg]

"Can transfer system and server build out be separated?"

Yes, they can. However the new hardware and location will be better set up to handle increased numbers, thus we do not want to encourage a large migration with the new transfer system until that hardware is in place and ready to go. And for those saying do this before Update 16, the hardware build out is a team that does not touch game code. Delaying 16 would do nothing to speed up the process of the build out.

"Update 16 is getting ready fr launch but no public discussion about PvMP has occurred"
Correct. The PvMP improvements are not part of Update 16, they will come after.

Ah Thanks for being honest even though it means pvmp will continue to be abandoned for another 2+ months. It has already been 11 months since last pvmp update so will be over a year of total neglect. Doesn't give one much trust in any thing turbine says about pvmp improvements when you guys can't even give us the slightest support now. How are you magically going to do all these grand changes in the future when you don't have the money, and or available dev time to do absolutely anything for pvmp for over a year.

Edit addition: With the lack of a level cap bump this year you will not be forced to do any pvmp changes this year. It gives me even less hope we will get even the slightest support any time soon.

[HalProudFoot]

"Can transfer system and server build out be separated?"

Yes, they can. However the new hardware and location will be better set up to handle increased numbers, thus we do not want to encourage a large migration with the new transfer system until that hardware is in place and ready to go. And for those saying do this before Update 16, the hardware build out is a team that does not touch game code. Delaying 16 would do nothing to speed up the process of the build out.

"Update 16 is getting ready fr launch but no public discussion about PvMP has occurred"
Correct. The PvMP improvements are not part of Update 16, they will come after.

I doubt even private discussions about pvmp even occur. Even if there actually are pvmp discussions going on I'm sure it's only relevant to freeps.

You keep dangling that carrot and we can continue to ignore it.

[Vyvyanne]

At no point were the PvMP changes slated for U16. I posted in my letter at the beginning of the year that we plan to do them this year and we are working to do so that has not changed.