Who can defeat the Balrog at this age ?

[Arasilion]

i remember someone here said that valar aule is the husband of valar yvanna.. so valar is male + female and they can have children / biological sibling ? did their male/female form only for show / rainment or they stuck to one form/sex and keep using it as permanent 'rainment' ?

In the original idea, Maiar spirits were the children of the Valar; but that was changed. They could probably theoretically have children, but nothing is said about it. And all Maiar can change whatever form they have as many times as they want, except for Sauron after he first "died".

[sir-rinthian]

They could probably theoretically have children, but nothing is said about it.

Actually, there was a Maia who married an elf and had children. Go read the Silmarillion

[Reddhawk]

i remember someone here said that valar aule is the husband of valar yvanna.. so valar is male + female and they can have children / biological sibling ? did their male/female form only for show / rainment or they stuck to one form/sex and keep using it as permanent 'rainment' ?

The answer to that question is in the quote that I already posted.

At any rate, I'll parse through it for you:

Moreover their shape comes of their knowledge of the visible World, rather than of the World itself; and they need it not, save only as we use raiment, and yet we may be naked and suffer no loss of our being. Therefore the Valar may walk, if they will, unclad, and then even the Eldar cannot clearly perceive them, though they be present. But when they desire to clothe themselves the Valar take upon them forms some as of male and some as of female; for that difference of temper they had even from their beginning, and it is but bodied forth in the choice of each, not made by the choice, even as with us male and female may be shown by the raiment but is not made thereby. But the shapes wherein the Great Ones array themselves are not at all times like to the shapes of the kings and queens of the Children of Ilúvatar; for at times they may clothe themselves in their own thought, made visible in forms of majesty and dread.

A
It says very clearly "that difference of temper [being male or female] they had even from their beginning." This means that the valar were born as either male or female, though as spirits, their gender is more like a state of mind ("difference of temper") and not a physical difference until they take visible form.

B
The idea that these gender differences are part of the valar's nature is further clarified. "It is but bodied forth in the choice of each, not made by the choice" indicates that a valar's gender exists even before he or she takes a form, and the form taken merely reflects that gender.

C
This statement gives even more clarification on how this process works. As humans, we can tell each other apart by the clothes we wear. A person wearing a dress or a skirt is very likely a woman. Now, the key here is that a dress or a skirt merely helps to indicate the wearer's gender, but it is not the source of the gender. A person's gender exists even when they aren't clothed. The same is true of the valar. Their visible forms are nothing more than clothing ("raiment") that help to indicate their genders, but those genders still exist even when they aren't in physical form.

[Reddhawk]

Actually, there was a Maia who married an elf and had children. Go read the Silmarillion

Melian, wife of Elu Thingol, mother of Lúthien Tinúviel.


I think Arasilion was questioning whether the valar themselves could have children. Though, if the maiar can, I don't see why they couldn't.

[Arasilion]

Actually, there was a Maia who married an elf and had children. Go read the Silmarillion

I was talking about the Valar, smarty pants :-)

[tuor66]

In the Book of Lost Tales the original stories of the Valar included some names who were said to be "children" of the primary Valar we still have in the Silmarillion. They disappeared in subsequent re-writings. I don't think Tolkien ever said if they were children biologically speaking or children in a spiritual sense. Why they disappeared is anyone's guess, it could be as simple as too many characters to keep track of. My personal opinion, considering Melian had a child, is that they could have children but didn't feel the need to as they entered the world so they could exist with the Children of Iluvatar. (Children of their own might make them value the Children of Eru less.) Melian made an exception because of her love for Thingol and the knowledge that children would be very important to him and a natural part of life wedded to him.

[DPRIJADI1]

Melian, wife of Elu Thingol, mother of Lúthien Tinúviel.


I think Arasilion was questioning whether the valar themselves could have children. Though, if the maiar can, I don't see why they couldn't.

wait wait.. isnt luthien the grandmother of aragorn ? that mean aragorn got maiar blood in him ?

[BIGeyedBUG]

wait wait.. isnt luthien the grandmother of aragorn ? that mean aragorn got maiar blood in him ?

Luthien is Aragorn's great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grandmother...give or take a great or three.

We don't actually know a complete string. The most obvious one has many unknown generations between Silmarien and Amandil, who was the father of Elendil and grandfather of Isildur.

[Reddhawk]

wait wait.. isnt luthien the grandmother of aragorn ? that mean aragorn got maiar blood in him ?

Lúthien is not Aragorn's grandmother, but they are related; as is Arwen. So, they both have a minute amount of maiar blood in them.



I'll list the ancestors of Aragorn and Arwen in detail below. Males are marked blue, females are marked pink. (Spouses), when known, are in parenthesis.



Aragorn's ancestors:

     Melian (Elu Thingol)
     Lúthien (Beren)
     Dior (Nimloth)
     Elwing (Eärendil)
========================== Kings of Númenor
1    Elros Tar-Minyatur
2    Vardamir Nólimon
3    Tar-Amandil
4    Tar-Elendil
========================== King's Daughter (did not take throne)
     Silmariën (Elatan)
========================== Lords of Andúnië (Nobles of Númenor)
1    Valandil
2    <UNKNOWN>
3    <UNKNOWN>
4    <UNKNOWN>
5    <UNKNOWN>
6    <UNKNOWN>
7    <UNKNOWN>
8    <UNKNOWN>
9    <UNKNOWN>
10   <UNKNOWN>
11   <UNKNOWN>
12   <UNKNOWN>
13   <UNKNOWN>
14   <UNKNOWN>
15   Eärendur
16   <UNKNOWN>
17   Númendil
18   Amandil
========================== Kings of Arnor
1    Elendil
2    Isildur
3    Valandil
4    Eldacar
5    Arantar
6    Tarcil
7    Tarondor
8    Valandur
9    Elendur
10   Eärendur
========================== Kings of Arthedain
1    Amlaith
2    Beleg
3    Mallor
4    Celepharn
5    Celebrindor
6    Malvegil
7    Argeleb I
8    Arveleg I
9    Araphor
10   Argeleb II
11   Arvegil
12   Arveleg II
13   Araval
14   Araphant
15   Arvedui
========================== Chieftains of the Dúnedain
1    Aranarth
2    Arahael
3    Aranuir
4    Aravir
5    Aragorn I
6    Araglas
7    Arahad I
8    Aragost
9    Aravorn
10   Arahad II
11   Arassuil
12   Arathorn I
13   Argonui
14   Arador
15   Arathorn II (Gilraen)
16   Aragorn II Elessar (Arwen)

Lúthien was Aragorn's great(x64)-grandmother, making him at least 1 / 147,573,952,589,676,412,928 =~ (6.8 x 10^-21) part maiar. As you can see, whatever maiar blood might have been left in his bloodline was incredibly miniscule.



Arwen's ancestors:

     Melian (Elu Thingol)
     Lúthien (Beren)
     Dior (Nimloth)
     Elwing (Eärendil)
     Elrond (Celebrian)
     Arwen (Aragorn II Elessar)

Lúthien was Arwen's great-great-grandmother, making her 1/32 part maiar.



This would make their son Eldarion .015625 part maiar. I'd give the actual fraction, but it's humongous and can be easily obtained by taking 1/2 of Aragorn's and adding it to 1/2 of Arwen's.

[Reddhawk]

Luthien is Aragorn's great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grandmother...give or take a great or three.

You're only off by 1 great (too many), according to my count. Nice!

[sir-rinthian]

*snip* *something about big numbers and lots of names* *snips some more*

Good grief! I never realized just how far back she was in his ancestry... That is a freakin SMALL amount of Maia blood! Maybe a blood cell? 2? 3? lol

[Rippentuck]

Sigh...Okay, I'll say it:

Chuck Norris!



Rip

[sir-rinthian]

Sigh...Okay, I'll say it:

Chuck Norris!



Rip

He wasn't alive during the 3rd age. Tulkas was the 3rd age version of him though...

[DPRIJADI1]

why so many unknowns in aragorn's line ?

[sir-rinthian]

why so many unknowns in aragorn's line ?

They didn't do much, so they didn't get mentioned.

[Arasilion]

why so many unknowns in aragorn's line ?

Tolkien is only a man :-) He didn't have the time to go through thousands of years of history to write detailed accounts about everyone.

[Morthaur]

My vote is for Finrod who was able to best Sauron in a singing contest, Sauron had to revert to using werewolves to kill him, (play fair Sauron), im sure Finrod could have sung a Balrog into submission too.

Vampires and werewolves were lesser Maia too, the Maia that became Balrogs were discontented fire spirits not all rogue Maia. Rogue Maia associated with Aule were Saruman and Sauron and they clearly were not balrogs. Osse if I recall was intially ambivalent about siding with the rest of the Valar so no doubt there is room for rogue water Maia not to mention former followers of Yavana (flower balrogs OMG).

Bullroarer Took could beat the balrog at golf.

My rough chance for the job would be Bard of Dale who was clearly the best archer of the age, much better than that lamer Legolas, if he can 1 shot Smaug he can do the balrog too for my money.

[DPRIJADI1]

[QUOTE=Morthaur;3812191]My vote is for Finrod who was able to best Sauron in a singing contest, Sauron had to revert to using werewolves to kill him, (play fair Sauron), im sure Finrod could have sung a Balrog into submission too.
/QUOTE]

finrod cannot beat a wolf let alone a balrog

[Morthaur]

Hmm, Sauron lacked the guts to take on an unarmed chained Finrod so he sent a werewolf intstead, Finrod killed it then succumbed to his wounds.

Finrod>Werewolf>Sauron>Balrog. QED

[sir-rinthian]

Sauron has always been a wimp, that doesnt make him a weakling.

[Vilnas]

My vote is for Finrod who was able to best Sauron in a singing contest, Sauron had to revert to using werewolves to kill him, (play fair Sauron), im sure Finrod could have sung a Balrog into submission too.

Actually, Sauron beat Finrod in the singing contest, which is how Finrod ended up in the dungeon in the first place. On the other hand, Luthien kicked Sauron's ***, then turned around and put the sleeper on Morgoth.

[Arasilion]

Actually, Sauron beat Finrod in the singing contest,

I know you meant well, but it wasn't a singing contest. It was a battle of wills and internal might that just so happened to manifest itself at that point in time as songs. Sorta reminds you of what Tom Bombadil did to that Barrow-wight, eh?

I felt that I should interject here lest some newbie gets confused....

[Vilnas]

I know you meant well, but it wasn't a singing contest. It was a battle of wills and internal might that just so happened to manifest itself at that point in time as songs. Sorta reminds you of what Tom Bombadil did to that Barrow-wight, eh?

I felt that I should interject here lest some newbie gets confused....

Oh, I completely agree with your characterization, and I like to think of my LOTRO minstrel skills in a similar way.

[Morthaur]

Yes maybe its the aethiest in me but I find the lack of priest classes in this game realy refreshing, the song mechanic in leu of holy power is a unique slant on things that makes this game stand out. One of the worst scenes in ROTK was the "do hobbits go to heaven" scene in the battle of Pelenor Fields, obviously trying to invest some kind of hokey spirituality into the movie akin to the jedi religion movement.

[Arasilion]

, obviously trying to invest some kind of hokey spirituality into the movie akin to the jedi religion movement.

Well, it's not like Middle-Earth was a naturalistic world created by an atheistic author.