Tolkien Trivia, Revived

[cdq1958]

This one having lapsed for the moment, I will offer a temporary question until we hear back from Itharas.

According to the canon texts, when did Galadriel leave Doriath and cross the Blue Mountains? You must give two events for reference purposes. More lore monkey points will be awarded if you can answer without consulting the book.

Boy you are making me work my memory (books packed in storage and not available atm). OK. Thingol was slain by Dwarves after he commissioned them to remake the Nauglamir. Melian departed for Valinor after that incident, leaving Doriath open to its enemies. Dwarves from Nogrod or was it Belegost? came to take revenge and sacked Doriath. Beren and Luthien, with the aid of the Green Elves and the Ents slew the Dwarves and kept the remade Nauglamir bearing the Silmaril. Dior, their son, gathered the remnants and attempted to revive Doriath. After Beren and Luthien died, the Nauglamir was taken to Dior in Doriath. The sons of Feanor attacked Doriath, killing Dior and capturing his sons. The remnants fled to the Mouths of Sirion. Elwing escaped with the Nauglamir and carried it south. I think this is when she fled East with Celeborn and before the War of Wrath (remember Galadriel thought that the ban on return to Aman conveyed by Mandos would never be lifted if she remained in Middle-Earth), where Eonwe pronounced the renouncement of the Ban (at least to return to Eldamar) after the banishment of Morgoth.

[Vilnas]

I'll go with Bob... from an appreciative remark by a bystander to Frodo's unfortunate performance in the Pony.

Sweet job there! You are absolutely right. After Frodo finishes his first rendition of the The Man in the Moon to rousing applause, the audience calls for it again. Someone says they should fetch Bob to hear it, and that he should learn his cat the fiddle.

[Vilnas]

I'm at work at present so don't have a copy of the books with me to check this, but I'm going to guess farmer Maggot.

Not that I am aware of, but if he did it would have been one bad, bad kitty to hold his/her own with Grip, Fang and Wolf.

[Vilnas]

Boy you are making me work my memory (books packed in storage and not available atm). OK. Thingol was slain by Dwarves after he commissioned them to remake the Nauglamir. Melian departed for Valinor after that incident, leaving Doriath open to its enemies. Dwarves from Nogrod or was it Belegost? came to take revenge and sacked Doriath. Beren and Luthien, with the aid of the Green Elves and the Ents slew the Dwarves and kept the remade Nauglamir bearing the Silmaril. Dior, their son, gathered the remnants and attempted to revive Doriath. After Beren and Luthien died, the Nauglamir was taken to Dior in Doriath. The sons of Feanor attacked Doriath, killing Dior and capturing his sons. The remnants fled to the Mouths of Sirion. Elwing escaped with the Nauglamir and carried it south. I think this is when she fled East with Celeborn and before the War of Wrath (remember Galadriel thought that the ban on return to Aman conveyed by Mandos would never be lifted if she remained in Middle-Earth), where Eonwe pronounced the renouncement of the Ban (at least to return to Eldamar) after the banishment of Morgoth.

You know what's funny? It has been so long that I no longer recall the exact answer off the top of my head. I will check when I get home, but I think you are not quite correct about the timing of Galadriel's exodus. For the record, there is a clear statement in the text that gives two reference points for her departure from Doriath, and the answer is not in the Silmarillion.

[Tuco]

Sweet job there! You are absolutely right. After Frodo finishes his first rendition of the The Man in the Moon to rousing applause, the audience calls for it again. Someone says they should fetch Bob to hear it, and that he should learn his cat the fiddle.

Cool. If it's OK to have two threads continuing at once, I'll offer this one:

Which animal and freep (race of elf, man, hobbit or dwarf), both alive during LotR, shared a name?

Hint: it's not Fang Boffin.

[Vilnas]

Bill (Ferny) and Bill (the pony)

or

Fatty (Bolger) and Fatty (Lumpkin)


Variations on the theme - Bill (Ferny), Bill (the pony) and Bill (the troll)

and

Tom (the troll) and Tom (Bombadil)

[Boraxxe]

There is also:

Strider (the pony ridden by Frodo when returning to the Shire).

And

Strider (the human ridden by guilt for being rude to the Mouth of Sauron).

[Tuco]

There is also:

Strider (the pony ridden by Frodo when returning to the Shire).

And

Strider (the human ridden by guilt for being rude to the Mouth of Sauron).

Wow, lots of them! I saw this pair and was so struck by the obscurity that I didn't think long enough about the others. Not obscure enough for you, though!

This is the one I had in mind, but the Bill/Bill one was earlier, so I suggest Vilnas should go... despite getting tricky with the Toms (no good, a troll isn't an animal under the Meaning of the Act, using the usual distinction between animals and thinking beings, which I suppose though we shouldn't since Eagles at least are thinking beings. But I digress.).

Well done, all!

[Vilnas]

Wow, lots of them! I saw this pair and was so struck by the obscurity that I didn't think long enough about the others. Not obscure enough for you, though!

I hear you. About half the time I think I have a really good obscure one the group offers 2-3 other solutions that I should have foreseen.

despite getting tricky with the Toms (no good, a troll isn't an animal under the Meaning of the Act, using the usual distinction between animals and thinking beings, which I suppose though we shouldn't since Eagles at least are thinking beings. But I digress.).

Aye, that's why I put Tom/Tom and Bill/Bill/Bill under "variations on a theme." Personally I was fondest of Fatty/Fatty. Bill/Bill is a bit of cheat since the pony was named for the man.

[Vilnas]

Alright, there is something I have been noodling over and I will introduce it here in trivia question form in hopes that it will lead to discussion after the answer is presented:

Cite a reference in the text to a dwarf settlement extant in the Third-Age that is not (i) located in the Blue Mountains, Grey Mountains or Iron Hills, and (ii) Erebor or the Moria colony.

The reference I have in mind does not explicitly satisfy those criteria, but I can make a good case for why it should. My answer is not from the appendices, but you can draw from them if you like.

[Boraxxe]

I believe that Gimli became the first Lord of the Glittering Caves that were behind Helms deep and also known as Aglarond. These caves were in the White Mountains (I think).

[Vilnas]

I believe that Gimli became the first Lord of the Glittering Caves that were behind Helms deep and also known as Aglarond. These caves were in the White Mountains (I think).

Got you on a technicality. My question said extant in the Third Age.

[Tuco]

How about this one between the Birthday Party and Frodo's 50th:

There were, however, dwarves on the road in unusual numbers. The ancient East-West Road ran through the Shire to its end at the Grey Havens, and dwarves had always used it on their way to their mines in the Blue Mountains. They were the hobbits' chief source of news from distant parts - if they wanted any: as a rule dwarves said little and hobbits asked no more. But now Frodo often met strange dwarves of far countries, seeking refuge in the West. They were troubled, and some spoke in whispers of the Enemy and of the Land of Mordor.

I suggest that dwarves seeking refuge in the West must have been driven out of their homes in the East. Since the Iron Hills and the Lonely Mountain hadn't been overrun, then they must be coming from somewhere else that *had* been. One possibility is further East, but wherever it was, they knew about Sauron.

There's an implication that dwarves had settled in Dale also, from the "obvious dwarf-make" of some of the toys from both Dale and the Lonely Mountain (mentioned separately in the same sentence), but that's probably another technicality, and not as interesting as the first passage. IMHO, anyway.

[Vilnas]

That is the exact passage I had in mind. Good work!

It initially seemed to me that any dwarves in the north-east region would seek refuge at Erebor or in the Iron Hills (assuming that a settlement remained there after Dain took up his kingship at Erebor). Similarly, I can't see how we could conclude that those mystery dwarves were leaving Erebor or the Iron Hills. A very long road to lesser halls in the Ered Luin? That just doesn't make sense in the context of everything we know. Dain was troubled by Sauron's messenger who had asked after Bilbo, but it seems clear to me that he was not in a panic about an imminent assault from Mordor.

Just how far to the east/southeast/south would our mystery dwarves need to be coming from before they chose the Ered Luin over Erebor as their refuge? Looking at the map, it seems to me that any dwarves coming from or through Rhun would be much more likely to detour north to Erebor or the Iron Hills instead of continuing west over the Misty's. Or perhaps things were so bad in the East that they wanted to get as far away as possible?

Or were the settlements in the Ered Luin larger and more important than we had understood? After all, Nogrod and Belegost of old were in the Ered Luin. What survived of their people and former glory? Thorin's folk were all Longbeards, and the portions of the story that concern dwarves are essentially told from their perspective. The Longbeards' ancestral home was Khazad-dum, and after its fall they settled in the Grey Mountains/Erebor/Iron Hills. The settlement in the Iron Hills arose after multiple exiles, and only recently in the grand tale of years. Erebor was newly re-founded. Were the Ered Luin settlements downplayed in the stories because they were the ancestral homes of other clans? Would the eastern mystery dwarves make for the Ered Luin because they were in fact older, grander and stronger than Erebor/Iron Hills at that point in time?

I had not thought to mention Dale in my riddle, as I didn't make the distinction between the two in my mind. I agree that it is entirely possible that some dwarves lived in Dale proper rather than within the Mountain.

[Tuco]

It initially seemed to me that any dwarves in the north-east region would seek refuge at Erebor or in the Iron Hills (assuming that a settlement remained there after Dain took up his kingship at Erebor). Similarly, I can't see how we could conclude that those mystery dwarves were leaving Erebor or the Iron Hills. A very long road to lesser halls in the Ered Luin? That just doesn't make sense in the context of everything we know. Dain was troubled by Sauron's messenger who had asked after Bilbo, but it seems clear to me that he was not in a panic about an imminent assault from Mordor.

While Dain wasn't yet in imminent trouble, perhaps the dwarves from the East could see it was just a matter of time, since Mordor had already started trying the doorknob there. Whatever they saw was driving them in fear. Frodo saw a lot more of them than usual, also -- could taking in 3 or 4 of the seven houses of dwarves have threatened to put too much of a drain on his resources in the event of a siege?

Just how far to the east/southeast/south would our mystery dwarves need to be coming from before they chose the Ered Luin over Erebor as their refuge? Looking at the map, it seems to me that any dwarves coming from or through Rhun would be much more likely to detour north to Erebor or the Iron Hills instead of continuing west over the Misty's. Or perhaps things were so bad in the East that they wanted to get as far away as possible?

That's what I'm thinking. They may have been cut off from Iron Hills by whatever was going on around the Sea of Rhun. Perhaps they recognized that the Gap of Rohan was dodgy, and went up the west side of Mirkwood, past Radagast's place, then onto the Great East-West Road. The other possibility I see is through the Gap, up the Greenway from Tharbad, then pick up the East-West Road in Bree -- evidently Frodo didn't get that far, so he wouldn't know how far a reticent dwarf had been traveling on the EW Road.

Or were the settlements in the Ered Luin larger and more important than we had understood? After all, Nogrod and Belegost of old were in the Ered Luin. What survived of their people and former glory? Thorin's folk were all Longbeards, and the portions of the story that concern dwarves are essentially told from their perspective. The Longbeards' ancestral home was Khazad-dum, and after its fall they settled in the Grey Mountains/Erebor/Iron Hills. The settlement in the Iron Hills arose after multiple exiles, and only recently in the grand tale of years. Erebor was newly re-founded. Were the Ered Luin settlements downplayed in the stories because they were the ancestral homes of other clans? Would the eastern mystery dwarves make for the Ered Luin because they were in fact older, grander and stronger than Erebor/Iron Hills at that point in time?

I suspect not - the passage I typed above said they used the E-W Road on their way "to their mines in the Blue Mountains." If they were massive halls the size of Thorin's Hall or even Gondamon, we would have heard about it here, I think -- e.g. "to their enormous delvings in the Blue Mountains." It was my understanding in any case that the destruction of Belegost and Nogrod was pretty thorough when the mountains broke apart and dropped into the sea.

So I vote that they were members of one or more of the "missing" families of the seven, and that they had seen horror enough that they were done with the war, to the extent that they could arrange it. Perhaps in the Fourth Age there would have been enough refugees to delve Ered Luin again; or back to the East, once the hobbits got Sauron sorted.