One-word Tolkien Trivia

[Vilnas]

http://www.thetolkienwiki.org/wiki.cgi?Bladorthin

Thanks very much. That is interesting indeed, as is the further FAQ linked in the wiki. My personal feeling is that Tolkien most likely did not create a backstory for the mysterious Bladorthin, but rather took this opportunity to use an interesting name that he had previoulsy devised for a different purpose but had discarded.

If I had to hazard a conclusion about the location of Bladorthin's kingdom, I would have to say either somewhere in the region of northern Rhun or else the portion of Rhovanion east of Southern Mirkwood and west of the Sea of Rhun. I would discount the area between the Misty Mountains and Northern Mirkwood as being too well documented in terms of its peoples (being the original homeland of the people that became the Rohirrim), and as being too lightly populated at the time of The Hobbit to suggest that during the height of Erebor's power that there might have been a kingdom there. On the other hand, I suppose it is certainly possible that there was then a small realm that fell to the orcs and of Gundabad (or the Misties more generally) for want of the spears that would have been delivered if Smaug had not intervened, and that the hardy woodmen of that region referenced in The Hobbit. are the survivors. In that case, we would have to think through whether it would be likely for the king of that realm to have an elvish name, and my brain is too tired right now to delve into that.

Interestingly the lotr.wiki for Rhun suggests that in addition to having been populated by Easterlings, Rhun was also the "peopled by lost Elves, Avari and Úmanyar, and by four of the seven clans of the Dwarves." I'm not sure where that information comes from, but if it can be trusted, given the apparent elvish etymology of the name Bladorthin perhaps we should conclude that he was the king of one of these elvish groups.

I haven't had a chance to look into who might have populated the portion of Rhovanion east of Southern Mirkwood and west of the Sea of Rhun at the time in question.

[Vilnas]

As to whether "The shadows" is an acceptable clue, I'm not sure. You can, however treat the clue as being "Shadows", or content yourself that it IS one word in ur-Quenya.

This is going to be tricky because the word association in my mind between "Shadows" and "of Angmar" is too deeply embedded. The best I can come up with right now is Mordor, which if I recall means "Land of Shadow" in Quenya.

[Cutholen]

This is going to be tricky because the word association in my mind between "Shadows" and "of Angmar" is too deeply embedded. The best I can come up with right now is Mordor, which if I recall means "Land of Shadow" in Quenya.

It is going to be tricky And Mordor is the wrong answer.

To make it a little easier, the clue does uniquely identify the answer; however, there are two steps from clue to answer, not just one. (The second step should be a no brainer.)

[Boraxxe]

As to whether "The shadows" is an acceptable clue, I'm not sure. You can, however treat the clue as being "Shadows", or content yourself that it IS one word in ur-Quenya.

Are these Shadows dark and wet as ink?

[Cutholen]

Are these Shadows dark and wet as ink?

From the geography of the path to shadows dark and wet as ink, I would have to say not.

[Boraxxe]

Morinorassë
or
Huini

[Cutholen]

Thanks very much. That is interesting indeed, as is the further FAQ linked in the wiki. My personal feeling is that Tolkien most likely did not create a backstory for the mysterious Bladorthin, but rather took this opportunity to use an interesting name that he had previoulsy devised for a different purpose but had discarded.

I suspect that you are correct.

If I had to hazard a conclusion about the location of Bladorthin's kingdom, I would have to say either somewhere in the region of northern Rhun or else the portion of Rhovanion east of Southern Mirkwood and west of the Sea of Rhun. I would discount the area between the Misty Mountains and Northern Mirkwood as being too well documented in terms of its peoples (being the original homeland of the people that became the Rohirrim), and as being too lightly populated at the time of The Hobbit to suggest that during the height of Erebor's power that there might have been a kingdom there. On the other hand, I suppose it is certainly possible that there was then a small realm that fell to the orcs and of Gundabad (or the Misties more generally) for want of the spears that would have been delivered if Smaug had not intervened, and that the hardy woodmen of that region referenced in The Hobbit. are the survivors. In that case, we would have to think through whether it would be likely for the king of that realm to have an elvish name, and my brain is too tired right now to delve into that.

Interestingly the lotr.wiki for Rhun suggests that in addition to having been populated by Easterlings, Rhun was also the "peopled by lost Elves, Avari and Úmanyar, and by four of the seven clans of the Dwarves." I'm not sure where that information comes from, but if it can be trusted, given the apparent elvish etymology of the name Bladorthin perhaps we should conclude that he was the king of one of these elvish groups.

I haven't had a chance to look into who might have populated the portion of Rhovanion east of Southern Mirkwood and west of the Sea of Rhun at the time in question.

As to who lived in the area west of Ruhn, until about 1900 TA it was the Northmen, precursors of the Rohirrim and of woodmen of the Anduin vale:

The Eotheod were first known by that name in the days of King Calimehtar of Gondor (who died in the year 1936 of the Third Age), at which time they were a small people living in the Vales of Anduin between Carrock and the Gladden Fields, for the most part on the west side of the river. They were a remnant of the Northmen, who had formerly been a numerous and powerfull confederation of peoples living in the wide plains between Mirkwood and the River Running, great breeders of horses and riders renowned for their skill and endurance, though their settled homes were in the eaves of the Forest, and especially in the East Bight, which had largely been made by their felling of trees.

(Unfinished Tales p 371)

We learn further on that the Northmen were weakened by the Great Plague, then conquered by the Wainriders.

As for the Northmen, a few, it is said, fled over the Celduin (River Running) an were merged with the folk of Dale under Erebor (with whom they were akin), some took refuge in Gondor, and others were gathered by Marhwini son of Marhari (who fell in the reargaurd action at the after the Battle of the Plains). Passing north between Mirkwood and Anduin they settled in the Vale of Anduin, where they were joined by many fugitives who came through the Forest. This was the beginning of the Eotheod ...

(UT pp 374-5)

As we read on in the tale of Cirion and Eorl, we learn that Wainriders had settled in the former lands of the Northmen, with Northmen slaves. A revolt coordinated with an attack from Gondor failed, so presumably the Wainriders continued to live in that area thereafter.

[gradivus]

Shadows --> Shades --> (the) Nazgûl

[Cutholen]

Morinorassë
or
Huini

Three rings for the Elven Kings ...

Or in Quenya:

~ Heru i Cormaron ~
Neldë cormar Eldaranin nu i vilya,
Otso Naucoherin hrótarentassen sarna,
Nertë Firimarin naminë firita,
Er i Mornaherun mahalmaryassë morna
I Morinorassë yassen caitar i Huini.

Er Corma heritatilyë, Er Corma hiritat,
Er Corma hostatilyë ar i móressë avaleryat
I Morinorassë yassen caitar i Huini.

http://www.minastirith.com/cgi-bin/u...20;t=000173;p=

But no.

[Cutholen]

Shadows --> Shades --> (the) Nazgûl

Unfortunately, also no.

[Boraxxe]

The Shadows:

The rhythm section in the old-timey-band, Khamul And The Upland Shadows.

[Cutholen]

The Shadows:

The rhythm section in the old-timey-band, Khamul And The Upland Shadows.

LOL Not sure how that counts as Tolkien trivia, but no.

[gradivus]

That which lie in Mordor.

(...in Mordor, where the shadows lie.)

[Cutholen]

That which lie in Mordor.

(...in Mordor, where the shadows lie.)

No.

To move things on a little, in the shadows to which I reffer, Sauron would have feared to walk (it is not Mordor related).

[Boraxxe]

"From the ashes a fire shall be woken, a light from the shadows shall spring"

lya i ná malta lá mirilya,
Ilya i ranya lá ná vanwa.
I linwenya i ná polda lá hesta,
Tumnë talmar lá nar rahtainar i ringwenen.
Ringallo nárë cuivuva,
Cala huinello tuiuva
Envinyataina nauva russë ya né rácina,
I ú-rië ata nauva aran.

[Cutholen]

"From the ashes a fire shall be woken, a light from the shadows shall spring"

lya i ná malta lá mirilya,
Ilya i ranya lá ná vanwa.
I linwenya i ná polda lá hesta,
Tumnë talmar lá nar rahtainar i ringwenen.
Ringallo nárë cuivuva,
Cala huinello tuiuva
Envinyataina nauva russë ya né rácina,
I ú-rië ata nauva aran.

I wish I had thought of that one, but unfortunately I did not; so you are wrong.

[Boraxxe]

I wish I had thought of that one, but unfortunately I did not; so you are wrong.

Not true: I just fail at Cutholen mind reading.

[Cutholen]

Not true: I just fail at Cutholen mind reading.

No mind reading necessary. There is only one location on Middle-earth whose name exactly matches the clue, and finding that location will inexorably lead you to the correct answer. (Whoops, I've said to much.)

[BIGeyedBUG]

The shadows.

Avathar, which according to one source means literally "The Shadows". (My mind took a strange path to get to it though, something like this: Shadows + where Sauron would fear to tread >> Ungoliant >> Nan Dungortheb = Nope. Ungoliant >> Avathar = w00t! + looks up meaning of Avathar = doubleplusw00t!) And I'm sure I'm missing something, as I'm still puzzled by the "two steps" clue.

Anyway, from "The Darkening of Valinor":

Thus unseen [Melkor] came at last to the dark region of Avathar. That narrow land lay south of the Bay of Eldamar, beneath the eastern feet of the Pelori, and its long and mournful shores stretched away into the south, lightless and unexplored. There, beneath the sheer walls of the mountains and the cold dark sea, the shadows were deepest and thickest in the world; and there in Avathar, secret and unknown, Ungoliant had made her abode.

Another example of Tolkien writing beautifully, by the way.

[Cutholen]

Avathar, which according to one source means literally "The Shadows". (My mind took a strange path to get to it though, something like this: Shadows + where Sauron would fear to tread >> Ungoliant >> Nan Dungortheb = Nope. Ungoliant >> Avathar = w00t! + looks up meaning of Avathar = doubleplusw00t!) And I'm sure I'm missing something, as I'm still puzzled by the "two steps" clue.

Anyway, from "The Darkening of Valinor":

Thus unseen [Melkor] came at last to the dark region of Avathar. That narrow land lay south of the Bay of Eldamar, beneath the eastern feet of the Pelori, and its long and mournful shores stretched away into the south, lightless and unexplored. There, beneath the sheer walls of the mountains and the cold dark sea, the shadows were deepest and thickest in the world; and there in Avathar, secret and unknown, Ungoliant had made her abode.

Another example of Tolkien writing beautifully, by the way.

Your answer appears to be Avathar, which does indeed mean "The Shadows" according the the index of The Silmarillion. However, "the shadows" = avathar = the clue. The second step takes you to the only possible being of note associated with Avathar, Ungoliant. (Not Morgoth because he only visited, while Ungoliant dwelt there.) However, I wil give the prize to you as anyone could make the final step once they realized Avathar itself was incorrect; while it took a real lore monkey to make that first step.

[Boraxxe]

Well, it's been more that 24 hrs so I feel entitled to start another one.

Hervor?

[aleczander]

how bout in english? silly hobbit...

[Boraxxe]

how bout in english? silly hobbit...

I think a name in any language is spelled the same....excluding special characters of course.

[aleczander]

kinda what i thought, if you gave us the proper name, isn't that the answer? this seems backwards....

Eowyn?

[Boraxxe]

kinda what i thought, if you gave us the proper name, isn't that the answer? this seems backwards....

Eowyn?

Eowyn is correct. Gratz.

From: http://bookclubs.barnesandnoble.com/...der/m-p/232750

While researching some questions regarding the fall of the Roman Empire I started looking for material relating the origins of the various Gothic tribes. In so doing I found the "Saga of Hervor," imbedded in the Hervarar Saga, and a comment that stated JRRT had been heavily influenced by this source when he outlined his Middle-earth character, Eowyn.

I thought I'd like to follow up on this revelation by trying to find out who this Hervor might be, and see just how closely she and Eowyn might be compared.

see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hervarar_saga#Tolkien

1. Hervarar saga

Here I am using the online version translated by Peter Tunstall at:
http://www.northvegr.org/lore/oldheathen/021.php

One of the Nordic sources that JRRT used as foundation material for his own Middle-earth saga is especially important in that it provided a template for his Rohirric "shield maiden" Eowyn.

The Hervarar Saga seems first to have been written down in the middle 1200s AD, but it looks backward in time to the formation-era of the Gothic/ Germanic peoples and is primarily set in the 4th and 5...snip...