From the eyes of a fairly new Warden

[DcDisturbed947]

Just a few things that have been going through my head and I wanted to put down in writing :P

I've finally been having the chance to tank some end game instances, and I've learned pretty much all my gambits.
Not long ago, I made a post with a personal complaint about constantly messing up my gambits and just losing my head.

Well, I am glad to say, this does not happen anymore.

Let me add that I also have a Guardian toon. Well, I have come to the conclusion that no matter what I'm doing, I find it easier to tank on my Warden than my Guard. Much easier in fact. Primarily due to the need to constantly switch targets on my Guard, whereas on my Warden it's not really necessary.

A couple of points I wanted to discuss - (Bear with me, as I do not know the names of the gambits unfortunately, so I will use 1 (SP) 2 (SH) 3 (FI).

Single target - 3 1 is just awesome Just throw in a few 3 1 3 1 in there, and nothing can pull aggro away from me, except maybe a hunter in strength if I get a little lazy.

Now, multiple targets. Generally, if I'm not mistaken, Champs are the ones who give us the most trouble, correct?
Although it gets annoying at times spamming the same gambit, I personally don't mind it too much if the Champ goes ape sh**.
I spam 2 3 2 3 2 a few times, along with 2 3 2 3 and 2 3 2, and eventually any aggro that the champ had just turns over to me. Granted I have to keep spamming these gambits if the Champ never slows down, but it's never a problem, mobs always end up turning to face me.
So I'm to the point where I don't even worry about champs... they want to go crazy, i say more power to them :P

Of course, sometimes too many hard hitting mobs will turn to the champ and he'll go down faster than a (insert dirty joke here). Nothing I can really do about that, other than tell the champ to tone it down for a few. And if that's the case, a quick /tell to the champ usually fixes the problem. If it doesn't, it ends up being his problem. Once he dies, everything turns to me and we succeed nonetheless, just a little bit slower
And I hate to say it, but sometimes I hope for that hardheaded champ to just die so it makes my job simpler.

Another post of mine a bit ago was regarding problems with power. Well, after a lot of tweaking, I'm at 2100 power with 1600 ICPR. In Conservation, I never ever have power issues anymore. Only going solo, from mob to mob with no breaks, eventually my power will slowly get low, otherwise, it's always there when I need it!

Anyways, sorry for the long post :P I'm loving my warden so dam much, and our threat generation can really be through the roof. But yes, we need to know our gambits very well, which took me a while, but once we do, there's simply nothing we can't do

/finishes thoughts :P

[Dalthyn]

Although it gets annoying at times spamming the same gambit, I personally don't mind it too much if the Champ goes ape sh**.
I spam 2 3 2 3 2 a few times, along with 2 3 2 3 and 2 3 2, and eventually any aggro that the champ had just turns over to me. Granted I have to keep spamming these gambits if the Champ never slows down, but it's never a problem, mobs always end up turning to face me.
So I'm to the point where I don't even worry about champs... they want to go crazy, i say more power to them :P

The problem here is that these are threat leeches, and won't really have much value (other than conviction's healing aggro) toward the beginning of a pull. Don't forget your war-cry (3-2) and EoB (3-1-2-3-2), Goad (3-3), and possibly Defiant Challenge (3-1-3-1-3). With champs and such that like to go all out in the beginning I often use DC in the beginning of the pull for its small bit of up-front aggro but mostly the force taunt which gives me time to get EoB off. Also opening with JoDF is a good way to get the first hit in on a group of mobs, which will help. Others open with a war-cry and an EoB and don't bother with DC at all, or use DC after those to give a few seconds of force while waiting for the threat to tick. And of course the ToT from multiple applications of war-cry and goad will stack like PB or any other ToT. EoB will too but it's less efficient powerwise and timewise.

There are lots of ways to handle the AoE pulls, and you will find out what you like best, but in general the threat leeches are more useful later in the pull to help maintain aggro after your fellows have built up some to leech from them. Though sometimes when doing things like pulling from range and then line of sighting mobs around a corner to bring them out to us, I'll fire off a masteried conviction just for the healing aggro as I run back.


Glad you're enjoying your warden.

[DcDisturbed947]

The problem here is that these are threat leeches, and won't really have much value (other than conviction's healing aggro) toward the beginning of a pull. Don't forget your war-cry (3-2) and EoB (3-1-2-3-2), Goad (3-3), and possibly Defiant Challenge (3-1-3-1-3). With champs and such that like to go all out in the beginning I often use DC in the beginning of the pull for its small bit of up-front aggro but mostly the force taunt which gives me time to get EoB off. Also opening with JoDF is a good way to get the first hit in on a group of mobs, which will help. Others open with a war-cry and an EoB and don't bother with DC at all, or use DC after those to give a few seconds of force while waiting for the threat to tick. And of course the ToT from multiple applications of war-cry and goad will stack like PB or any other ToT. EoB will too but it's less efficient powerwise and timewise.

There are lots of ways to handle the AoE pulls, and you will find out what you like best, but in general the threat leeches are more useful later in the pull to help maintain aggro after your fellows have built up some to leech from them. Though sometimes when doing things like pulling from range and then line of sighting mobs around a corner to bring them out to us, I'll fire off a masteried conviction just for the healing aggro as I run back.


Glad you're enjoying your warden.

yes, I didn't specify, but threat leeches come later in the pull.

I always open AOE aggro with 3 1 2 3 2 building it with masteries and then goad and war cry immediately

[tanis0]

I'm glad things are going better for you. Let me give you a couple of quick tips.

Now, multiple targets. Generally, if I'm not mistaken, Champs are the ones who give us the most trouble, correct?
Although it gets annoying at times spamming the same gambit, I personally don't mind it too much if the Champ goes ape sh**.
I spam 2 3 2 3 2 a few times, along with 2 3 2 3 and 2 3 2, and eventually any aggro that the champ had just turns over to me. Granted I have to keep spamming these gambits if the Champ never slows down, but it's never a problem, mobs always end up turning to face me.
So I'm to the point where I don't even worry about champs... they want to go crazy, i say more power to them :P

After the initial pull, you're better off just keeping Conviction (23232) up (ie, don't spam it), and use the remaining time while masteries cool down to toss out a Warcry (32) and rotate PB (31) among the various mobs. This frees you up a bit more to do things like EoB (31232), Resolution (3123) and Restoration (21212) if you are going down, Reversal (132) to remove corruptions, Boot, Onslaught or WoS (12, 121, 1212) for interrupts / DPS / parry buff, etc. DoW (2323) is ok too, but it's not worth spamming either, and it doesn't put you as far up the threat ladder as Conviction, PB, EoB or Warcry (in PB and Warcry's case, that's because you can get 2 of them off in the time it takes to do a non-masteried DoW).

Another post of mine a bit ago was regarding problems with power. Well, after a lot of tweaking, I'm at 2100 power with 1600 ICPR. In Conservation, I never ever have power issues anymore. Only going solo, from mob to mob with no breaks, eventually my power will slowly get low, otherwise, it's always there when I need it!

Just pull more mobs at once. This will allow you to use DbD (12131) to re-gain power more easily since your health stays lower. It also has the side effect of letting you rotate bleeds along with EoB and Warcry so that you can kill more mobs in a shorter amount of time even not counting the power increase.

[DcDisturbed947]

I'm glad things are going better for you. Let me give you a couple of quick tips.

After the initial pull, you're better off just keeping Conviction (23232) up (ie, don't spam it), and use the remaining time while masteries cool down to toss out a Warcry (32) and rotate PB (31) among the various mobs. This frees you up a bit more to do things like EoB (31232), Resolution (3123) and Restoration (21212) if you are going down, Reversal (132) to remove corruptions, Boot, Onslaught or WoS (12, 121, 1212) for interrupts / DPS / parry buff, etc. DoW (2323) is ok too, but it's not worth spamming either, and it doesn't put you as far up the threat ladder as Conviction, PB, EoB or Warcry (in PB and Warcry's case, that's because you can get 2 of them off in the time it takes to do a non-masteried DoW).

Just pull more mobs at once. This will allow you to use DbD (12131) to re-gain power more easily since your health stays lower. It also has the side effect of letting you rotate bleeds along with EoB and Warcry so that you can kill more mobs in a shorter amount of time even not counting the power increase.

Appreciate the tips

Keep in mind, i didn't really specify my rotations or say everything I use. I do use pretty much everything we got, just wanted to mention my favorite ones :P

[geoboy]

Appreciate the tips

Keep in mind, i didn't really specify my rotations or say everything I use. I do use pretty much everything we got, just wanted to mention my favorite ones :P

For me, it's become more fun the better I've gotten. Enjoy the ride.

[DcDisturbed947]

For me, it's become more fun the better I've gotten. Enjoy the ride.

Oh ABSOLUTELY!!

I used to dread grouping, just cause I knew I'd mess up my gambits and just mess everything up.

Now, I actually enjoy bad PUGS. I feel I bring so much as a tank. Learning to play my Warden has changed the game for me, for the better

[Dalthyn]

Oh ABSOLUTELY!!

I used to dread grouping, just cause I knew I'd mess up my gambits and just mess everything up.

Now, I actually enjoy bad PUGS. I feel I bring so much as a tank. Learning to play my Warden has changed the game for me, for the better

Hah, totally. I love kin groups and all, but sometimes I'll join a PUG and just look at is as a challenge. Love when you get a rag-tag bunch and have the opportunity to act as the glue that binds them together.

[DackRover]

This post pleased me to see in an odd / reverse way -- THIS has been my indirect sense...that we guards work harder in general tanking respects, and that wardens' tools are just something we guards should envy. I don't like having comparatively deficient tools, but do like having my "version" of reality confirmed, at least as far as these particular areas of basic tanking are concerned.

[Dalthyn]

This post pleased me to see in an odd / reverse way -- THIS has been my indirect sense...that we guards work harder in general tanking respects, and that wardens' tools are just something we guards should envy. I don't like having comparatively deficient tools, but do like having my "version" of reality confirmed, at least as far as these particular areas of basic tanking are concerned.

I think it just shows that, played well, both classes have strength in different aspects of tanking.

[japridemor]

I too get a perverse joy in being part of a PUG that goes bad and everyone is killed but me. Then I kill EVERYTHING that killed all of them and am left standing alone amongst their dead bodies. I scare myself sometimes.

[Murtanion]

Single target - 3 1 is just awesome Just throw in a few 3 1 3 1 in there, and nothing can pull aggro away from me, except maybe a hunter in strength if I get a little lazy.

Now, multiple targets. Generally, if I'm not mistaken, Champs are the ones who give us the most trouble, correct?
Although it gets annoying at times spamming the same gambit, I personally don't mind it too much if the Champ goes ape sh**.
I spam 2 3 2 3 2 a few times, along with 2 3 2 3 and 2 3 2, and eventually any aggro that the champ had just turns over to me. Granted I have to keep spamming these gambits if the Champ never slows down, but it's never a problem, mobs always end up turning to face me.
So I'm to the point where I don't even worry about champs... they want to go crazy, i say more power to them :P



/finishes thoughts :P

Like you said above, Precise Blow (3-1 in your terms) is the best single target threat skill. I warn though, don't spam it because it is a waste of power, simply hit it 2 or 3 times, let the threat over time build up, and use your leeches to pull the mob to you.

As for multi=mob pulls, I always start with ambushing one target, JoDF the other targets, Masteried War cry when they hit melee range, then I let EoB and Conviction do the work.

For myself I prefer to keep up Dance of War over conviction if I have a good healer because I like the extra evade rating to put me at 15% b/p/e with shield mastery and WoS.

Good to know you are enjoying it, you should spar myself and Eyolear. Lots of fun to be had in Warden V. Warden Combat.

[DackRover]

I too get a perverse joy in being part of a PUG that goes bad and everyone is killed but me. Then I kill EVERYTHING that killed all of them and am left standing alone amongst their dead bodies. I scare myself sometimes.

Dayam! <skin emanating a distinct shade of green>

[DcDisturbed947]

Like you said above, Precise Blow (3-1 in your terms) is the best single target threat skill. I warn though, don't spam it because it is a waste of power, simply hit it 2 or 3 times, let the threat over time build up, and use your leeches to pull the mob to you.

As for multi=mob pulls, I always start with ambushing one target, JoDF the other targets, Masteried War cry when they hit melee range, then I let EoB and Conviction do the work.

For myself I prefer to keep up Dance of War over conviction if I have a good healer because I like the extra evade rating to put me at 15% b/p/e with shield mastery and WoS.

Good to know you are enjoying it, you should spar myself and Eyolear. Lots of fun to be had in Warden V. Warden Combat.

I do use Dance of War, but because of the long animation, not as often. Just enough to keep the +evade up.

And I'm not good enough in PvP to spar you guys yet :P you'd mop the floor with me

[VmirTehPwn]

Dayam! <skin emanating a distinct shade of green>

You can do that too, just stand there until everyone is dead and then start tanking

[geoboy]

Well, you can die trying to protect the mini and DPS,
or
you can feign death, or wait for them all to die, and start kiting at your own pace.

That's what I call control.

[Drglory]

Dayam! <skin emanating a distinct shade of green>

Maybe you should stay off boats. That sea-sickness is bad stuff :P

[DackRover]

Maybe you should stay off boats. That sea-sickness is bad stuff :P

I am sick in mind, not in body

[LagunaD]

Let me add that I also have a Guardian toon. Well, I have come to the conclusion that no matter what I'm doing, I find it easier to tank on my Warden than my Guard. Much easier in fact. Primarily due to the need to constantly switch targets on my Guard, whereas on my Warden it's not really necessary.

I wouldn't really say switching targets is very hard, compared to, say, trying to grab and hold aggro for 45 seconds after being outside melee range for the previous 45 seconds, or regain it 5 minutes into a fight after taking a rez...

Anyway, I think the extent that you can hold aggro on multiple targets without switching will depend a lot on how well your Champs are geared and how efficiently they use their skills. In my experience, no combination of EoB, Conviction, War Cry or DoW will hold aggro on an untargeted mob being AoEed by a Champ who starts at the same time I do, at least not in the time available before the mob is dead. Precise Blow, or it peels - I am constantly switching targets in big pulls.

[DcDisturbed947]

I wouldn't really say switching targets is very hard, compared to, say, trying to grab and hold aggro for 45 seconds after being outside melee range for the previous 45 seconds, or regain it 5 minutes into a fight after taking a rez...

Anyway, I think the extent that you can hold aggro on multiple targets without switching will depend a lot on how well your Champs are geared and how efficiently they use their skills. In my experience, no combination of EoB, Conviction, War Cry or DoW will hold aggro on an untargeted mob being AoEed by a Champ who starts at the same time I do, at least not in the time available before the mob is dead. Precise Blow, or it peels - I am constantly switching targets in big pulls.

Don't missunderstand me... I never meant that switching targets is hard. It's just simpler to... Well... Not
And its not like I never have to do it, I do it all the time.

I'm sure after death its harder to pull aggro back than the guard, but so far, I've never died first in a group, I've always been the last one standing.
But that wasn't the point of this thread. Neither was I asking for tips as I made it clear I've mastered the art of keeping mobs glued on me

[tanis0]

Don't missunderstand me... I never meant that switching targets is hard. It's just simpler to... Well... Not
And its not like I never have to do it, I do it all the time.

I'm sure after death its harder to pull aggro back than the guard, but so far, I've never died first in a group, I've always been the last one standing.
But that wasn't the point of this thread. Neither was I asking for tips as I made it clear I've mastered the art of keeping mobs glued on me

Yeah, but when you hit the true level of mastery, you can keep everything glued to you, require almost no healing in most content, and interrupt and remove corruptions all at once. I have a bit of trouble with the latter myself, but I'm getting closer to that level. When the mob isn't addled, I tend to be about 1/4 second late on my interrupts, though occasionally I'm in the zone and I nail them all.

Also, don't take the tips as criticism or as a statement that you're doing it wrong. We just try to be a helpful bunch here when people approach with a good attitude, and most of us have been doing this for a year or more, so we've learned a thing or two even after we thought we knew most all there was to know. I still find helpful tips on this forum that I hadn't considered before.

[SCHawks73]

I too get a perverse joy in being part of a PUG that goes bad and everyone is killed but me. Then I kill EVERYTHING that killed all of them and am left standing alone amongst their dead bodies. I scare myself sometimes.

That happened in SG to me just recently... We were on the 4th boss and he had like 10k left and everyone wiped, and instead of retreating and coming back to finish him... they all stayed dead, I then finished off the boss and started working on the summoning spirit when an RK showed up and helped me finish him off... it was kinda funny...

[head0nfire]

Hah, totally. I love kin groups and all, but sometimes I'll join a PUG and just look at is as a challenge. Love when you get a rag-tag bunch and have the opportunity to act as the glue that binds them together.

Sometimes it takes a lot more than glue to hold things together. Check this out...

Champ force taunts bosses/brutes off of me every 30 seconds.
When the champ force taunts the bosses/brutes, he doesn't understand why he needs to turn them to face away from the group
Champ doesn't know what clobber is. We have to explain to him how to put it on his hotbar.
Captain doesn't know he had a skill to cure fear.
LM thinks that it is necessary to step on bone piles for HM.
Hunter is having power issues in endurance, so he switches to Precision to fix that.
Minstrel asks me why I'm not using a heavy shield (that's more ignorance of the class, but still)
Champion is half tanking traited, and DPS's in fervour while wearing a heavy shield.

I gave up pretty quickly








*DISCLAIMER* This didn't actually happen all in one single group, but with PUGs on my server it very well could. Minstrels in my kin frequently tell me about PUG guards that don't switch targets or even fire off challenge, hunters that go strength stance and start pulls with HS, champions who go in glory when there are 2 tanks in the group, etc. etc. It sucks being in the group, but it's a lot of fun to talk about later