BG Factual information.

[YesMaam]

Yup yup. My apologies as well heh. Youre probably right about the title though lol, and no matter how factual based the information may be I can't help go a little into strat but pretty much didnt want that word going anywhere near the title.

[Dalthyn]

I got two-shotted last Saturday by Durchest: in Glory (+750 morale), 5-deep in Martial Champion, using a Heavy Shield, with corruptions under control, wearing 175 rad, sitting at somewhere over 9k morale with buffs and whatnot. We do only have one Burglar, and I can't recall whether we had RK/Min healing combo or two Minstrels. I got hit for 4.5k followed by 5.5k in less than five seconds. Fairly sure that corruptions were under control as well.

It can happen, even to groups that have done it countless times.

We do use the two-tank strategy that you describe, however - never tried the method that Brushfire is talking about, but it seems to be popular.

Well, one may have been cleave, but being as they were less than 5 seconds apart, at least one of these had to have been the DMA, no?

In addition to Disable, do you have an LM keeping Sign of Power: See all Ends up at all times? If you have that up, and your tank or tanks have good melee crit defence (I use 2x T9 melee crit def runes) the odds of getting a DMA crit on you are minimal. It makes a huge difference.

[Lestache]

Well, one may have been cleave, but being as they were less than 5 seconds apart, at least one of these had to have been the DMA, no?

In addition to Disable, do you have an LM keeping Sign of Power: See all Ends up at all times? If you have that up, and your tank or tanks have good melee crit defence (I use 2x T9 melee crit def runes) the odds of getting a DMA crit on you are minimal. It makes a huge difference.

Yep, those were the two attacks. I have all T9 relics, including both melee crit defense runes. We did have a non-kin LM with us that night - perhaps he or she hadn't kept all the proper debuffs on. No big deal - we beat it as usual, was just pointing out that even if one takes all the proper precautions, the two-shot death can happen. (If not all LM debuffs were up, then I guess we hadn't taken all the proper precautions, though. )

[Dalthyn]

Yep, those were the two attacks. I have all T9 relics, including both melee crit defense runes. We did have a non-kin LM with us that night - perhaps he or she hadn't kept all the proper debuffs on. No big deal - we beat it as usual, was just pointing out that even if one takes all the proper precautions, the two-shot death can happen. (If not all LM debuffs were up, then I guess we hadn't taken all the proper precautions, though. )

lol, yep. It *can* happen due to DMA with that up and good crit def, but it's extremely unlikely. I usually stay at 3/4 morale or better with RK HoTs on me, and drop down to 1/4 or so maybe once in the fight if he does get a crit off. And I'm generally focused on aggro, corruptions, and keeping defensive buffs up, and not so much on self heals.

[wyldcyde]

lets not forget sign of power see all ends can be resisted and has ~1min cooldown.
if LM doesnt have legacy then its also only 45s duration so thats at least 15s of every minute boss doesnt have crit rating debuff.

personally i consider physical resist and non damaging sign of power durations to be the only 2 must have LM legacies for raiding.
nice extra ones are power sharing on staff and tact resist on book.

[LewsTherinTelamon]

Well, one may have been cleave, but being as they were less than 5 seconds apart, at least one of these had to have been the DMA, no?

I'll have to check my log from the first time in there and unfortunately I forgot to log the next night but I'm pretty sure I always was being hit by 2 DMAs back to back. One I was able to get the second swing of feral strikes between the 2 so that's how quick they came.

Next time I'm in there assuming I don't have any lag I'll try frapsing the fight so I can go back and check buffs/crits.

[Dalthyn]

I'll have to check my log from the first time in there and unfortunately I forgot to log the next night but I'm pretty sure I always was being hit by 2 DMAs back to back. One I was able to get the second swing of feral strikes between the 2 so that's how quick they came.

Next time I'm in there assuming I don't have any lag I'll try frapsing the fight so I can go back and check buffs/crits.

Yeah, but with Disable and See all Ends up, if you have a good morale pool back to back DMA shouldn't kill you if your healers are paying attention. Like the poster above said, though, it can be resisted, and there's the rub.

Hmm, I haven't played LM since SoA so I forget, Call to the Valar doesn't reset sign of power cooldowns, does it?

[wyldcyde]

call to the valar is 5 or 10mins cooldown, no point using for resists on debuffs imo. though im not even sure it resets sign of power skills.

obviously if burg is doing corruption removals there will be frequent moments when disable isn't up.

[Comma44]

No big deal - we beat it as usual, was just pointing out that even if one takes all the proper precautions, the two-shot death can happen. )

Good point, it's still possible to get back to back critted and frankly that's just going to happen sometimes. It's happened to me a few times... hasn't happened in a long time which probably has to do with being really consistent on all debuffs and the group being better geared etc. I still hold my breath a little near the end just waiting for back to back crits.. bu first off this doesn't happen often if all precautions are in place and if you've got constant heals coming you can more often than not survive those double crits. But if you usually get Durchest down, like lestache said, you'll still get him down.

Remember a death is survivable in this fight, you can even recover from multiple deaths. I find it hardest to recover if one of your tanks dies but if you are quick to call out a new secondary tank and re allocate heals to that person, it's just a matter of burning him down through his heals.

Also another factoid in case people were unaware, when someone dies in the 2nd phase of the LT fight and you get one of those super zombies... they will despawn after some time (just like when u wipe and have to wait for them to despawn before you can restart the fight) . I can't confirm the time on the despawn, Ill try to remember to time it next time someone dies or we wipe. But basically you can deal with them by mezzing it as soon as it spawns... moving to a different part of the arena with the LT and dedicating one person to keeping it locked down until it despawns, it's not more than a few minutes iirc. We had a death on our EM alt run last night and survived with the zombie. Alternative is to kill it of course, but that introduces the danger of super zombie on the loose hitting people for 600 every 2 seconds and slowing them, much more chaos than necessary. Also means more power and dps wasted on knocking down 50k off a zombie when that could be dedicated to the Lt.

[wyldcyde]

good info on LT.
there is a full video of LT HM 2.0 kill by solstice on youtube as well which shows how its done.

[YesMaam]

Yeah the add that pops will disappear but it sure is a pain. Also takes raid concentration, I'm interested to see what is exactly changed in new patch.

[Souku2]

call to the valar is 5 or 10mins cooldown, no point using for resists on debuffs imo. though im not even sure it resets sign of power skills.

obviously if burg is doing corruption removals there will be frequent moments when disable isn't up.

it does not reset the sign of power skills.

[YesMaam]

It's ironic how there can be those moments were the boss will do a big double crit right when there are no debuffs on him, but it happens. The one time we did durchest with 3 burgs the healers said they were bored out of their minds, maybe if people are having trouble getting 1 shotted that could help.

[wyldcyde]

i've definitely seen 2 burgs + LM smooth out incoming dmg a lot.

i would also say if you only have one burg and are struggling with dmg, take that burg out of the corruption rotation so they never have to remove disable.

[rademps]

Dealing with carg - How do you make this boss not come into melee? Have your tank (in most cases a hunter who has highest ranged agro), stand about 3 feet in any direction off of the red carpet, if you got 10 feet too far, or inside the carpet the boss will run into melee range and the fight will be over unless you are able to quickly reposition yourself and avoid super nova at the same time. The shadow only will attack the person that he is agroed on, he performs no aoe damage thus its usually easiest to just say X hunter tank and X runekeeper heal and nobody worries about them for the fight.

So, what you are saying is that, if you stand at the correct distance, the carg will stay put and do ranged attacks on the hunter tank. Correct?

If the hunter tank gets and eyeball and needs to move, as long as he stays at the correct distance the carg is stationary. Is that correct?

We have been unsuccessfully trying to kite. This would make things much more doable.

TIA

[Leadfingers]

So, what you are saying is that, if you stand at the correct distance, the carg will stay put and do ranged attacks on the hunter tank. Correct?

If the hunter tank gets and eyeball and needs to move, as long as he stays at the correct distance the carg is stationary. Is that correct?

We have been unsuccessfully trying to kite. This would make things much more doable.

TIA

omg.. kiting ><

What you're describing is our basic strat for Carg. I tank him by standing on the "iron cross" in the floor, about 10 feet in front of him. I open with a Penetrating Shot, and never lose aggro.

It's my understanding that the person with Carg's aggro will never get an eye. At least, I don't think I ever have. (I could be wrong, though)

[Aidus]

omg.. kiting ><

What you're describing is our basic strat for Carg. I tank him by standing on the "iron cross" in the floor, about 10 feet in front of him. I open with a Penetrating Shot, and never lose aggro.

It's my understanding that the person with Carg's aggro will never get an eye. At least, I don't think I ever have. (I could be wrong, though)

I have once.

Just moved left to the wall, dump the purple cloud there, and back to position. It did only happen once and it happened my 5th or 6th time, so it may have been a bug.

[rawlingsst7]

Cargaraf's aggro target will never get a shadow puddle eye. They will occasionally get a fire puddle eye from Morg. Just shift over out of the puddle and continue pewpewing. Just don't circle around far enough that you're out of range of heals/shield-brother.

Do not try to kite Carg, it's ridiculously risky and annoying. As long as she's tanked at range from the start all she'll ever do is Shadow Bolt (tactical) over & over on the tank, and put fears and purple eyeballs on other raid members. Just don't anybody linger in melee range of her or she'll Shadow Nova them.

[Leadfingers]

good info on LT.
there is a full video of LT HM 2.0 kill by solstice on youtube as well which shows how its done.

That video makes me want to cry.

They are SO disciplined, it's amazing.

[Comma44]

hehe I remember walking into the twins fight first time and trying to figure out how on earth you were supposed to kite the shadow one and then yes ma'am is like I'll range tank it and so it began. Any class can range tank her as long as they can keep agro... hence why hunters are preferred. The safe distance is around 10-15m I believe. I usually have all the ranged pew pewers stand the same distance from carg so if main tank needs to beneath notice, loses agro or for some reason dies.. carg will stay put and not go on an 8k aoe rampage, she'll simply switch targets and you'll have to reallocate heals. And yes hunter tank can get one of the eyes.. just move to the side... dump it and move back.

As for the Solstice video... We actually do our bird kiting a bit differently.. as in we tank right against the wall and don't kite the bird through the group. when LT 2.0 came out I wanted to try a Blind one meets duck duck goose type set up... didn't work out so hot. Basically now we pick a spot along the wall based on how purple puddles drop. The whole group apart from the bird kiter goes there. Then person with purple moves along the wall so they are two posts away. Two posts is so that if they get feared, less likely they will reach the main group and gives more time to run away. And person with yellow eye will split off from the group in opposite direction of purple eye. As soon as yellow eye comes up, even though the bird is still usually on the bird kiter, I usually recommend for the yellow eye person to get out of the group and get a good distance away from the bird, make sure u won't need to cut corners and make sure the bird doesn't stop by the group. Main reason I wouldn't recommend kiting the bird close to the group is that he can do that stop, stun random person in melée range and chomp chomp chomp. Of course everyone has to be quick to react if for
some reason bird does get walked into the group or if purple eye is feared into the group. So although we do try to have set places for purple eye and a set kiting pattern.. I always remind people that we have to be flexible and quick to react. And yes this fight is all about discipline

[YesMaam]

For easy mode you can take the shadow with a tank as he can keep agro off the person healing him, but for HM if you have people going all out a DPS class will pull agro anyways it's sort of like the turtle you just really dont need too many tank types for 2nd fight.

[YesMaam]

^above post buy Ideally for easy mode you want 115 for first 2 bosses and 125 without DP. But as a general rule always buy DP no reason not to even if your 180 rad.

[Balagast]

I have a comment regarding the Durchest fight. I've been in a group trying to figure out the tank assist method for HM. What we've been doing is sending in 2 or 3 raid members (we've been varying to try and get it to work), usually a captain or 2 and another if we use 3. We wait for them to get the debuff on 2 people and for it to tier up to around 70% on each. Then we have the tank start to build heavy agro (usually a warden tank) until Durchest turns to the tank. We then have all 3 stay in front of Durchest to allow the assistants to refresh their debuffs.

The issue we've had is that it seems that randomly the cleave will miss one of the assistants despite the fact that they are standing directly in it path, and the assistants debuff will not refresh and the debuff will be applied to the tank. At this point we usually have a second tank try to come in a establish aggro and do a tank swap, but its kind of messy transitioning mid fight.

Is there some subtle thing that I am not aware of, because this occurrence does not correspond with what I have read or seen myself?

[YesMaam]

That is why you don't over complicate it by thinking about other players. There is the main tank and the off-tank. End of story. The main tank will stand with his back against the wall fighting alone, and the off-tank will stand behind the boss with the rest of the group. When the main tank eventually loses agro the off-tank will tank until the main tank agro debuff is reset and when he loses it (the off-tank) the main tank will have been reset, putting agro back on main tank.

Basically we run in, the guard grabs the boss and swings him around, people get in position behind the boss and it doesnt matter which tank has agro, as long as its a tank and they hold it until the other loses his debuff, challenges if needed. Your group needs to know its not a DPS race, burgs minimal dps, hunters quick shot in endurance, captains auto attacks. This is about coordination between 2 people making sure youre debuff is reset around 30-50%.

[dhatcher1]

I find it easier just to put almost everyone in front of Durchest in the corner. Burgs, Hunters, Captains, Champs all in that corner except the main tank at the start. Once threat debuff has settled (usually after the first add) the main tank steps into the corner and engages to grab threat. With that many people in the corner, we have never had both the main and off tank get the threat debuff and we dont really care which one ends up tanking.

Hunter in strength or Champ taunt pulls adds to the corner where you can kill the add and let AoEs DPS Durchest. We have the RKs, Minnies, LMs far enough away along the torch wall that they dont get knockbacks.