Hunters, the Moors and you

[Tinluen]

I posted this in the freep section, I know, no multiple threads, but as a hunter I think it should be discussed here as well.

What do we need to become a viable threat again in the post MOM moors?

My suggestions are as follows to go along with my reasoning. What would the rest of you want to help balance the scales as they stand now?

A Focused Mind
reduces the focus needs by 50%
no penalty to movement for focus loss
10% damage reduction
30 second duration
10 minute cooldown


Archer's Dire Need
25% reduction of inductions
no penalty to movement for focus loss
15% increased power cost
30 second duration
10 minute cooldown

These are the areas hunters need to see changed in the moors. The problem is movement. Movement destroys focus. Long induction time on our focus builders means not getting off the shot while the creep is in melee. No focus means no powerful non induciton shots. This means what we have now... hunter corpses littering the field.

Creeps can now get into melee range rather easily due to charge, sprint, stun and WBs. They avoid paying the price for closing with a hunter and reap the benefits of the hunter being unable to get off swift bow and our other shots that get us to our fast shot bring on the pain abilities. This is where hunters are losing the most ground and where we need help.


Tydalmir

[Bigtuna00]

Not interested.

I am not posting to attack the OP, I just want to make my vote heard on the off chance that a Dev reads this. I don't want Turbine wasting any resources on PvMP. This is not a PvP game and I want them to stay true to the commitment that they made when they announced they would add PvP elements.

If they really want to advance PvP they should sandbox it: no PvE players in PvP, period. Make it "fair" to both sides. But still, I don't even want to see this because it takes resources away from the rest of the game.

Note: I know there's a big segment of the population that enjoys PvP and I'm not trying to tell you how to play. But Turbine brought this on themselves, adding PvP to a game they said would be PvE. Now they have to reconcile the fact that they've got a half-assed implementation and a decent chunk of the player-base paying to use it.

I'm personally paying my monthly free for a PvE game and that's what I want it spent on.

[NameAlreadyTaken]

This game has no collision detection, no plans to add it (or even the ability with this engine), and will therefore always be a mess when it comes to slipping easily inside the opposing force's ranks. Running right through someone to break LOS, running right past the heavies to get to the soft targets, all the fun that comes with everyone not being an actual solid object.

Adding some skills to our class isn't going to alleviate that pain.

Not interested.

I am not posting to attack the OP, I just want to make my vote heard on the off chance that a Dev reads this. I don't want Turbine wasting any resources on PvMP. This is not a PvP game and I want them to stay true to the commitment that they made when they announced they would add PvP elements.

If they really want to advance PvP they should sandbox it: no PvE players in PvP, period. Make it "fair" to both sides. But still, I don't even want to see this because it takes resources away from the rest of the game.

Note: I know there's a big segment of the population that enjoys PvP and I'm not trying to tell you how to play. But Turbine brought this on themselves, adding PvP to a game they said would be PvE. Now they have to reconcile the fact that they've got a half-assed implementation and a decent chunk of the player-base paying to use it.

I'm personally paying my monthly free for a PvE game and that's what I want it spent on.

The bolded part is what should have happened from Day One. Freeps should have been mirrors of Creeps: session play characters that live solely in the Moors, with the same advancement mechanics and skill sets. No huge disparity in healing, AOE damage, CC, travel mechanics, rezzing...you name it. The existing system will always be a giant Charlie Foxtrot. If you can't enjoy it for what it is then it's best not to bother.

Personally I'd love to see the time spent to do it right. I think a well done PvP sandbox would revitalize the game. It would certainly give me more incentive to go back to PvP, and that means there's more to do. That's a good thing.

[Asilras]

Not interested.

I am not posting to attack the OP, I just want to make my vote heard on the off chance that a Dev reads this. I don't want Turbine wasting any resources on PvMP. This is not a PvP game and I want them to stay true to the commitment that they made when they announced they would add PvP elements.

If they really want to advance PvP they should sandbox it: no PvE players in PvP, period. Make it "fair" to both sides. But still, I don't even want to see this because it takes resources away from the rest of the game.

Note: I know there's a big segment of the population that enjoys PvP and I'm not trying to tell you how to play. But Turbine brought this on themselves, adding PvP to a game they said would be PvE. Now they have to reconcile the fact that they've got a half-assed implementation and a decent chunk of the player-base paying to use it.

I'm personally paying my monthly free for a PvE game and that's what I want it spent on.

Sigh :/ My honest opinion is that while I know Turbine's focus is primarily pve, thousands of players have stuck around lotro for pvp, it deserves some love. This game has so much potential pvp wise, but it will never get the attention it needs. Honestly, pvpers have come to realize this, and aren't begging for a complete change of heart from Turbine, but rather some much deserved love. Pve gets old so quickly for anyone with any sort of skill whatsoever. The first few times through an instance it can be tough, but after that it's nothing more than a grind.


As for the OP, I think our lack of defense is a big problem atm. Whether there is PVP specific armour that can be obtained to boost mitigations and resistances or simply an overall buff it doesn't really matter. It's obvious Turbine went over the top with the latest update, and I hope there is something done to fix it.

[sjmartin19]

Not interested.

I am not posting to attack the OP, I just want to make my vote heard on the off chance that a Dev reads this. I don't want Turbine wasting any resources on PvMP. This is not a PvP game and I want them to stay true to the commitment that they made when they announced they would add PvP elements.

If they really want to advance PvP they should sandbox it: no PvE players in PvP, period. Make it "fair" to both sides. But still, I don't even want to see this because it takes resources away from the rest of the game.

Note: I know there's a big segment of the population that enjoys PvP and I'm not trying to tell you how to play. But Turbine brought this on themselves, adding PvP to a game they said would be PvE. Now they have to reconcile the fact that they've got a half-assed implementation and a decent chunk of the player-base paying to use it.

I'm personally paying my monthly free for a PvE game and that's what I want it spent on.

How can u say that? What pvpers don't matter to turbine? I guarantee if they got rid of the moors they'd lose alot of ppl, pvp needs some work, We pay to play this game 2, I think pve ppl can w8 for a pvp update, turbine is always updating pve.

[Kannos1600]

even though I'm not a huge pvp supporter I don't mind the occasional toss off to creep side or moors in general as a pass time.

I think it would be better if the pvmp was equal to both sides as a whole. Maybe it would emulate some games available already but I don't want to see lotro die off.

so if that means seeing a creep expansion come out to lvl creeps from 1 to X then so be it. I'd make a warg and play em from lvl 1. It would be fresh new fun n a grind yet again for gear n wut not.

[Odin_of_Freyr]

Not interested.

I am not posting to attack the OP, I just want to make my vote heard on the off chance that a Dev reads this. I don't want Turbine wasting any resources on PvMP. This is not a PvP game and I want them to stay true to the commitment that they made when they announced they would add PvP elements.

If they really want to advance PvP they should sandbox it: no PvE players in PvP, period. Make it "fair" to both sides. But still, I don't even want to see this because it takes resources away from the rest of the game.

Note: I know there's a big segment of the population that enjoys PvP and I'm not trying to tell you how to play. But Turbine brought this on themselves, adding PvP to a game they said would be PvE. Now they have to reconcile the fact that they've got a half-assed implementation and a decent chunk of the player-base paying to use it.

I'm personally paying my monthly free for a PvE game and that's what I want it spent on.

I'd pay twice as much for a PvP update than a PvE update. PvE is so scripted and inevitably is predicable. This bores alot of players. Nothing is more fun and challenging than when you have to fight an enemy that can actually think and attempt to outsmart you. How many times have NPCs tried to get behind you or avoid retaliation? and to think... some people actually enjoy it when a mob sits in front of them mindlessly attacking them.

[Bigtuna00]

and to think... some people actually enjoy it when a mob sits in front of them mindlessly attacking them.

Yes, we do, that's why we pay to play this game and not something else

I'm glad to see my comments appear to not have been taken the wrong way. As I said I know there's an avid LoTRo PvP population and it's definitely Turbine's responsibility to deal with the mess they've created.

[Kannos1600]

Well to Turbines extent they did state when the game was released that PvP wouldnt be a focal point which is one of the reasons I bought it with the followup statement of that it will be a story driven game.

I grew out of my Hack N Slash 24/7 mode a long time ago. I look for story quality as well as some smash em up action.

Honestly for me if PvMP is never fully immersed into the game I wont be at all bogged down. I PvE 90% of the time anyways. The small 10% is when Im really bored or Im just in a lolly gagging mood and just want to do some mindless killing or being killed.

Then I roll my Puppy and enact my fabled Puppy Time

( Which if anyone played LOTRO with me knows that Puppy Time is my most relaxed time of gaming and most fun )

[Irenmund]

What do we need to become a viable threat again in the post MOM moors?
..

My experience on the "E" moors is a little limited. But hunters remain a viable threat on Nimrodel, at least. Are we squishy? Sure. Glass-Cannon, etc. But our long range means we can kill or severely damage things long before they get to us.

To switch hats to my Warg, this is my take on hunters now. Lethal, at range. If I can close the distance on one, or better yet pounce or TS undetected, the advantage is mine. But that's working as intended, I believe.

In large "zerg-on-zerg" fights, the hunter who gets targeted will die. Period. But that's pretty much true of any class that gets targeted. Try playing a light armour healing minstrel. Keep in mind why hunters do get targeted as often as they do. It's because they ARE a viable threat. And as such, a smart creep raid leader takes them out right after, if not coincident with, the Minstrels. 50% of killing blows to the creeps are usually from a hunter in large raid on raid engagements.

So to sum up, making the changes to the hunter class that you suggest would unbalance things, IMO.

And as for the whole "Don't spend any time or money on PvP Turbine!" thing? Turbine, like any smart business will listen to what their customers want. Even the poorly executed PvP element of this game remains popular enough. To ignore PvP entirely would likely impact Turbine's revenues to the negative.

[Hsahsirg]

I'm personally paying my monthly free for a PvE game and that's what I want it spent on.

I agree I am still not happy with the crafting icons and the lack of grinds in this game.

I want our money to go to cutting the SM you get in skirmishes by half and changing the crafting icons again!

Anyways RvR hunters are fine they are also fine in small groups but when it comes to soloing between the insane morale/mits and the seemingly constant unlucky streaks with slow resists hunters are in a tight place. It's not much different than before but now CC is not even worth it anymore. I'm pretty sure if they changed QS to be a mirror of hinder it would be a lot easier than it is now. I have not seen a resist of hinder since it was changed from a wound.

[Lasagabaster]

I think this conversation has diversed completely from what the OP intended, but I'l add my 2-cents into both directions.

I have only recently gotten to the moors (ok, I was there when I was a 49 - but what good is that to anyone?), and now I'm a 65. A hunter. At long range, there's nothing like it. At close range, anything and anyone succeeds in killing hunters, because our main attack (arrows and bolts) needs us to be 100% of the time facing the target. I got kicked everytime someone was able to get less than 1 m from me - no way our close quarter fighting skills can beat just about any other creep or freep class in PvMP. So anything that would/could make our induction faster has my blessing.

As for Turbine doing something about PvMP, well, I guess that since they have given us the option to play the game that way, it's only fair they give us something that works as neatly as possible. I do think there should be people working on making PvMP a better experience to those who try it and especially to those who enjoy it. If only for no better reason than, as someone said "we also pay to play the game". But I strongly believe it should be done because there are people who really enjoy this aspect of the game. And even if "Turbine brought this upon itself", well, in my view, that's just another way to say "Turbine should fix it anyway, MAINLY because it brought that upon itself".

No irony or any attacks to anyone. Just my 2-cents on those matters.

[Anonymous32]

Yes, we do, that's why we pay to play this game and not something else

I'm glad to see my comments appear to not have been taken the wrong way. As I said I know there's an avid LoTRo PvP population and it's definitely Turbine's responsibility to deal with the mess they've created.

Your sincerely a f@gget, congratulations on being such a narrow minded fool. Turbine never announced this was a crafting game yet they add crafting content...the majority of end game pve'rs love pvp, and btw the pve in this game is garbage compared to other mmorpg's out there the end game raids and pve content are laughable at best. Please do not talk out of stupidity and ignorance.

hunters need more than that, mine is already semi retired, they are completely and utterly squishy, do less damage than rk's and don't have the cc to keep them alive in encounters. When a creep or 2 wants to kill a hunter it will happen they have no chance of getting away. Rk's may wear light armor but they can attack on the move where as hunters stay planted to do damage.

for such an avid pve'r your stats and gear are complete garbage, your wearing a turtle braclet and a sublime dawn rose ring. Your stats are pitiful, I don't even play my hunter or gear him out and I have better **** then you and I HATE pve.

[ArahadEketta]

This game has no collision detection, no plans to add it (or even the ability with this engine), and will therefore always be a mess when it comes to slipping easily inside the opposing force's ranks. Running right through someone to break LOS, running right past the heavies to get to the soft targets, all the fun that comes with everyone not being an actual solid object.

Adding some skills to our class isn't going to alleviate that pain.



The bolded part is what should have happened from Day One. Freeps should have been mirrors of Creeps: session play characters that live solely in the Moors, with the same advancement mechanics and skill sets. No huge disparity in healing, AOE damage, CC, travel mechanics, rezzing...you name it. The existing system will always be a giant Charlie Foxtrot. If you can't enjoy it for what it is then it's best not to bother.

Personally I'd love to see the time spent to do it right. I think a well done PvP sandbox would revitalize the game. It would certainly give me more incentive to go back to PvP, and that means there's more to do. That's a good thing.

Bolded part mine. This game engine fully supports collision detection. It is afterall a modified Asheron's Call 2 engine. CD was not put in for us by Turbine in the attempt to prevent griefing by players. In fact, there actually is collision detection presently in game. However it is in PvE and it only affects mobs. I love it when I pew pew a mob and it takes them longer to get to me because they have collided with each other in the attempt to get to me. I would however love to have Turbine activate CD for us at least for out in the Moors. This would actually allow our Meat Shields to forfill their function better. Especially since they loose their PvE ability to hold the enemies attention via threat generation (which is really only in-game because CD is turned off.)

As for the OP, not going to happen. Turbine is not going to specifically develop skills just for PvMP. If you are worried about your induction skills being slowed or interupted in melee range then make sure you have some Huntsman traits slotted to speed up your inductions and switch to Precision with Enduring Precision slotted. You will be generating focus everytime you are not moving. Yes, you are no longer getting the slow from quickshot but you can always stance dance if you want to get the slow off. You also don't loose all that much in dps because you will be able to use your focus skills more often to make up the difference.

[ArahadEketta]

/snip.

I would suggest very heavily re-editting your post before someone reports you for attacking another poster with thinly-veiled profanity. I specifically cut out your entire post so that it would not show up after you re-edit your personal attack on that other poster.

[Mark_J]

I know how to make Hunters a viable threat in the Moors again!

Just find some of those magic, lightning spitting rocks I see around Middle Earth and tie one on your Bow. Creeps will run from you in fear!!!

[NameAlreadyTaken]

Your sincerely a f@gget, congratulations on being such a narrow minded fool. Turbine never announced this was a crafting game yet they add crafting content...the majority of end game pve'rs love pvp, and btw the pve in this game is garbage compared to other mmorpg's out there the end game raids and pve content are laughable at best. Please do not talk out of stupidity and ignorance.

hunters need more than that, mine is already semi retired, they are completely and utterly squishy, do less damage than rk's and don't have the cc to keep them alive in encounters. When a creep or 2 wants to kill a hunter it will happen they have no chance of getting away. Rk's may wear light armor but they can attack on the move where as hunters stay planted to do damage.

for such an avid pve'r your stats and gear are complete garbage, your wearing a turtle braclet and a sublime dawn rose ring. Your stats are pitiful, I don't even play my hunter or gear him out and I have better **** then you and I HATE pve.

That's some top quality douchery right there. Well done.

Bolded part mine. This game engine fully supports collision detection. It is afterall a modified Asheron's Call 2 engine. CD was not put in for us by Turbine in the attempt to prevent griefing by players. In fact, there actually is collision detection presently in game. However it is in PvE and it only affects mobs. I love it when I pew pew a mob and it takes them longer to get to me because they have collided with each other in the attempt to get to me. I would however love to have Turbine activate CD for us at least for out in the Moors. This would actually allow our Meat Shields to forfill their function better. Especially since they loose their PvE ability to hold the enemies attention via threat generation (which is really only in-game because CD is turned off.)

Strange, I was told a while ago by a dev that they couldn't actually implement proper collision detection with this engine. And no, I don't mean having to move around solid landscape objects (we have to do that as well, its not just PvE mobs) but between players and mobs, or mobs and Creeps in PvP.

It's not hard to prevent griefing with active collision detection. You disable it in towns and people can't block access to anything. You don't make people as substantial as rocks either, at least by default. You can still move through people, but it's slow and the more people that are present the slower your progress will be. Again, no ability to to grief but you can't simply ignore everyone between you and the squishies. Most importantly it means that you can't simply LOS back and forth through people and pretend it's skill.

It also lets you give some extra value to the true heavy classes. A toggle skill that actually makes you an immovable object presents all sorts of tactical utility in PvP.

[Viloxus]

I posted this in the freep section, I know, no multiple threads, but as a hunter I think it should be discussed here as well.

What do we need to become a viable threat again in the post MOM moors?

My suggestions are as follows to go along with my reasoning. What would the rest of you want to help balance the scales as they stand now?

A Focused Mind
reduces the focus needs by 50%
no penalty to movement for focus loss
10% damage reduction
30 second duration
10 minute cooldown


Archer's Dire Need
25% reduction of inductions
no penalty to movement for focus loss
15% increased power cost
30 second duration
10 minute cooldown

These are the areas hunters need to see changed in the moors. The problem is movement. Movement destroys focus. Long induction time on our focus builders means not getting off the shot while the creep is in melee. No focus means no powerful non induciton shots. This means what we have now... hunter corpses littering the field.

Creeps can now get into melee range rather easily due to charge, sprint, stun and WBs. They avoid paying the price for closing with a hunter and reap the benefits of the hunter being unable to get off swift bow and our other shots that get us to our fast shot bring on the pain abilities. This is where hunters are losing the most ground and where we need help.


Tydalmir

good ideas but i guarantee if hunters become a threat again, they will immediately be nerfed 2.2 seconds later due to massive creep whining.

[kerryak]

definitely gonna /popcorn on this one, haha.





--
@ topic: I'm fearful of nerfs. I'd like to see ToF get some upgrades to make it a little more Moors friendly, but otherwise, I think we're OK dmg wise, and pizen removes is anti-spidery and delicious (and my creep is a spider ::::k )

[ArahadEketta]

That's some top quality douchery right there. Well done.



Strange, I was told a while ago by a dev that they couldn't actually implement proper collision detection with this engine. And no, I don't mean having to move around solid landscape objects (we have to do that as well, its not just PvE mobs) but between players and mobs, or mobs and Creeps in PvP.

It's not hard to prevent griefing with active collision detection. You disable it in towns and people can't block access to anything. You don't make people as substantial as rocks either, at least by default. You can still move through people, but it's slow and the more people that are present the slower your progress will be. Again, no ability to to grief but you can't simply ignore everyone between you and the squishies. Most importantly it means that you can't simply LOS back and forth through people and pretend it's skill.

It also lets you give some extra value to the true heavy classes. A toggle skill that actually makes you an immovable object presents all sorts of tactical utility in PvP.

Both AC and AC2 had collision detection enabled. In AC there was no CD between non-player killers. There was CD between characters and mobs. There was also CD between Red PK's and other Red PK's as well as between Pink PKlites' and other PKlites. There was no CD between Red players and Pink or White. So, if they were to turn on collision detection in LotRO it would only be between Freeps and Creeps. It is quite possible that they don't want to enable CD in the Moors because it might possibly mean that Freeps would collide with other Freeps or Creeps with Creeps.

[Aidus]

Your sincerely a f@gget, congratulations on being such a narrow minded fool. Turbine never announced this was a crafting game yet they add crafting content...the majority of end game pve'rs love pvp, and btw the pve in this game is garbage compared to other mmorpg's out there the end game raids and pve content are laughable at best. Please do not talk out of stupidity and ignorance.

hunters need more than that, mine is already semi retired, they are completely and utterly squishy, do less damage than rk's and don't have the cc to keep them alive in encounters. When a creep or 2 wants to kill a hunter it will happen they have no chance of getting away. Rk's may wear light armor but they can attack on the move where as hunters stay planted to do damage.

for such an avid pve'r your stats and gear are complete garbage, your wearing a turtle braclet and a sublime dawn rose ring. Your stats are pitiful, I don't even play my hunter or gear him out and I have better **** then you and I HATE pve.

Wow...

You might wanna see someone about that cranial rectal inversion syndrome you seem to be displaying there.

Your disdain of this game and what the designers are trying to create is obvious, it might be wise to move on to another game and another community that may be moe to your liking and where your particular challenges may be more fully embraced.

Thanks and have a nice day.

[Bigtuna00]

That's good stuff.

FWIW, my gear is junky because I was away from the game for...oh...11 months? Unfortunately I'm not elite enough to have maxed out gear in the 2 weeks that I've been back playing

(really only posting this for the benefit of other participants so they hopefully realize I'm not a TOTAL n00b )

[Bigtuna00]

Strange, I was told a while ago by a dev that they couldn't actually implement proper collision detection with this engine.

I think properly is the keyword there.

On the other hand it's fallacious to say that it's not possible. Anything is possible. It's a question of spending the resources (time+money) to do it.

Collision detection has been my number one feature request for PvP since I started playing MMOs. I remember discussing this over and over in my days playing DAoC. It would make such a huge difference strategically, for sure! But it seems unlikely to be a commonplace feature

[SerowLOTRO]

Off-topic question:

Why is there no open world pvp when the backdrop is the war against Sauron? Is it because the war hasn't come to the towns like Bree or the Shire yet, by the lore? Apologies, just started a few days ago and this oddity just seems... odd to me. "It's a war against Sauron... without the fighting."

[NameAlreadyTaken]

It's because every low-mid level zone would be filled with zergs of douchebags killing helpless PvE characters 20 or more levels below their max level Creeps. It would be pretty hard to have any sort of enjoyable questing experience if you were subject to open world PvP at every turn.