Cargerof... 4-11-10

[Leadfingers]

I was asked to post my parses for tanking Cargerof the other night. You can download a zip file with all of my data in it from http://www.box.net/lotro

The file includes my full combat log from that night, (including wipes), screenshots from Cstats, and a condensed log showing only the fight with Cargerof where we killed him.

I ran the entire fight in Strength Stance and was kept fully powered by Power Pots and my Lore-Master (I'm blessed to have some pretty amazing LMs). My ICMR is 1117 and my ICPR is 1100 (unbuffed). My bow is fairly craptastic.


You guys have been talking about getting some real numbers for raids, so I'll start keeping some track. This isn't an attempt to get my ePeen on or anything else. If there's a way to do this better, I'm all for hearing it.

If anyone cares, I'll toss up numbers from our Lieutenant run tonight (we've never downed him, though)

[Kannos1600]

Ive never been big on parsing and dont do it myself other than mentally while playing knowing if im subpar or good to go.

I dont think this makes you Epeen or what ever the smucks want to call it nowadays.

Someone does the math around here. N if its not me...then let it be you and the others

[SaintBass]

Interesting Data. 350 DPS for those that are keeping score at home, but not downloading anything. Two questions: what traits are/were you using? How is this approach different than how you normally run?

[Leadfingers]

My Trait setup was:

Compassion
Justice
Valour
Tolerance
Fidelity

Though, for the next run I'm going to drop Compassion for Mercy. I mean, seriously.. when's the last time someone actually threw something at me? (I may go with Justice... it depends on how the numbers work)

Oh, I didn't say it earlier, but I use a 3-0-4 Class trait setup.

[SaintBass]

I was referring more to what exactly you are using for class traits... I assumed a 3/0/4 but I don' think that your 3/0/4 is the same as my 3/0/4... it could be, but I don't want to assume too much.

[Leadfingers]

Hail of Arrows
Barbed Fury
Critical Eye

Enduring Precision
Swift Recovery
Strong Draw
Arrow Storm

[dhatcher1]

Hail of Arrows
Barbed Fury
Critical Eye

Enduring Precision
Swift Recovery
Strong Draw
Arrow Storm

I run:
Deadly Precision <get focus on crit> instead of Hail of Arrows
True Shot <more pen shot damage> instead of Barbed Fury
Fast Draw <shorter inductions> instead of Arrow Storm
Swift and True <more swift bow damage> instead of Critical Eye (With cappie crit buff I am over the 15% cap anyway)

I never use rain on single targets but stick to Swift, Quick and Barbed to keep bleed going with Pen shot between every induction skill. Anyone have thoughts on Hail/Storm and using rain of arrows more vs True shot/Swift & True/Fast draw and counting on Swift bow/Pen shot for more damage?

Is that a hard mode kill? Do you find you start missing alot as the dread ramps up? I believe our Hunter tank drops into precision after a while to keep hit rate up.

[Leadfingers]

There's plenty of room for choice, and there's no wrong answer, but for me, those traits wouldn't work.

Deadly Precision - With Enduring Precision, and my shot rotation, I don't need extra focus.
True Shot - I think Barbed Fury will out-damage True Shot every day. Especially with a +Barbed Arrow Bow.
Fast Draw is bugged and not properly reducing my inductions...


Yes, that's a hard mode kill. I don't recall missing at all, to be honest. (Though I'm sure it had to have happened..) That's one of those things that I've always lobbied to put into the combat log, along with crits, devs, blocks, parries, evades, etc...


Edit: I may have to swap in Swift & True. All I ever really do is raid, so I think your logic works there.

[kerryak]

my preferences for a tank n spank 3/0/4 setup:

Deadly Precision
Swift and True
Barbed Fury

Arrow Storm
Strong Draw
Swift Recovery
Fast Draw



--
I've prefered S&T to HoA for single target tank n spanks due to a few things

1) bonus persists regardless of crits
2) increase in crit magnitude on HoA means (assuming Focus Crit) dmg 15% chance of *2.0 / 5% of *2.5 dmg instead of 15% of *1.75 dmg / 5% chance of 2.25 dmg... i.e., 7/8 dmg of a HoA enhanced RoA would be present w/o this trait on a normal crit (and 9/10 dmg on a dev crit).
3) same CD on both skills
4) lower power cost on ISB vs RoA
5) focus may be lost due to repositioning, whereas ISB nets you focus
6) I'm @ crit cap so the bonus crit rating is superfluous

additionally, a situational:
4) some hard modes require not killing adds

although there's a situational for using HoA instead:
1) RoA vs 5 targets more than likely means 1 *will* crit.


--
I've prefered S&T over True Shot b/c I'm horribly addicted to breachfinders, and in MoM and SoA boss mitigation actually had a cap, making this bonus slightly less worthwhile WHEN USING BREACHFINDERS. I have absolutely NO IDEA if this is true in BG, and completely own up to the fact my preference is due to old habits and not being able to see immediate results w/ this trait vs S&T's obvious, no-testing-required, stacks-with-whatever-breachfinder-does whole awesomeness. And my habit in no way makes me shower this paragraphs w/ descriptives that laud S&T copiously.







*edit - didn't include dev crits. fix'd.

[dhatcher1]

True Shot - I think Barbed Fury will out-damage True Shot every day. Especially with a +Barbed Arrow Bow.

Thats one legacy I would like that my bow doesnt have. I do have induction crit, focus crit, induction power and focus power so my guess is that spamming the basics probably performs better with my bow.

[Dom12]

Deadly Precision - With Enduring Precision, and my shot rotation, I don't need extra focus.

With the altered skill timings we got with Mirkwood, this seems reasonable. If you're not trying to get Merciful in when it's available, Pen's longer CD pretty much forces you to use more induction shots so we're seeing much less of a focus deficit that we used to have. Enough so that it's certainly worth looking at dropping some of the focus-saving traits.

Given that, and the fact that many more of us are running S:P more of the time now, perhaps we should take a closer look at which ones have the greater impact. [trait]Strong Draw[/trait] (SD) has to still be the top of the heap. After that, we have [trait]Deadly Precision[/trait] (DP), [trait]Enduring Precision[/trait] (EP), and [trait]Arrow Storm[/trait] (AS).

Obviously, DP is in the BM group, while the rest are in HM, so that might be a determining factor in some cases, but ignoring which group they're in, is DP > EP even if you run S:P almost exclusively? Would SD & AS > DP & EP if you were doing a lot of AoE?

I don't think AS can beat out EP for someone using S:P since RoA has a 10s CD which means the most you could gain from AS is 1 focus per 10s. But the others are a little harder to pin down. How many times can we expect to crit in a 10s span? Does DP count dev crits or just normal crits (I know.. I should really know that.. )?

True Shot - I think Barbed Fury will out-damage True Shot every day. Especially with a +Barbed Arrow Bow.

Depends on what you're fighting. If you're taking 1 mob at a time, there's no reason you can't repop iBA every 10s to keep the bleed up. The only time BF really has a big advantage is if you're getting bleeds on multiple mobs where you really benefit from having the longer duration.

...missing... That's one of those things that I've always lobbied to put into the combat log, along with crits, devs, blocks, parries, evades, etc...

/Seconded!!

[kerryak]

agreed, our combat log is extremely lacking.

[Duredhel]

Fast Draw is bugged and not properly reducing my inductions...

Really? When did this happen?

If this is indeed the case, then that sucks majorly.

[kerryak]

Really? When did this happen?

If this is indeed the case, then that sucks majorly.

4 huntsman + fast draw = 1.5 sec induction on tooltip for ISB. (instead of 20% (1.6) - .2 = 1.4S.

If it's 1.5s induction, it's a bug. If it's a 1.4s induction, but 1.5s on tooltip, it's a tooltip issue. I don't know which it is. O_o

it's been bugged. ALOT. no response of yet.

[Duredhel]

4 huntsman + fast draw = 1.5 sec induction on tooltip for ISB. (instead of 20% (1.6) - .2 = 1.4S.

If it's 1.5s induction, it's a bug. If it's a 1.4s induction, but 1.5s on tooltip, it's a tooltip issue. I don't know which it is. O_o

it's been bugged. ALOT. no response of yet.

Strange. I just deslotted FD and my induction goes from 1.5 to 1.8. (Just figured out why the 0.3s jump. ;P) I imagine there just some funkiness with rounding errors on the tooltip. If I can stay logged into lotro for more than 5 minutes without finding something else to do, I'll run a fraps comparo of 0 huntsman, 0 huntsman + FD, 4 huntsman, and 4 huntsman + FD to see exactly how many frames each version takes.

[Dom12]

Thats one legacy I would like that my bow doesnt have. I do have induction crit, focus crit, induction power and focus power so my guess is that spamming the basics probably performs better with my bow.

Are you saying you usually don't use BA in your rotation? If I'm understanding that right, I suggest doing a parse or two and looking at how much damage you're actually getting from iBA. I did a few parses the other day (a solo skirm and some MW landscape stuff) and calculated the damage I was getting per iBA. Now, I do have a bleed legacy, but I'd argue that the numbers below show that iBA is very important in a DPS rotation even without the legacy.

Here's the numbers that matter:

Skill .. Uses .. Avg Damage
Pen ..... 173 .. 385.6
QS ....... 97 .. 254.9
BA ....... 75 .. 238.3
Bleed ... 222 ... 95.8 (so I was only getting about 2.96 bleed ticks per iBA use)
BA+Bleed ....... 521.9

The bleed leg is +50% (not sure if mine's maxed right now - still leveling that bow), so taking away that 50% buff, my bleeds would have averaged 63.9 points leaving my BA+bleed average at 427.44. Still better than Pen shot and way better than QS. Now consider if I had managed my bleeds better and gotten an average closer to the 5 (or is it 6) maximum I can get untraited. That's another 120+ points of damage per iBA, not even considering the trait.

[kerryak]

Strange. I just deslotted FD and my induction goes from 1.5 to 1.8. (Just figured out why the 0.3s jump. ;P) I imagine there just some funkiness with rounding errors on the tooltip. If I can stay logged into lotro for more than 5 minutes without finding something else to do, I'll run a fraps comparo of 0 huntsman, 0 huntsman + FD, 4 huntsman, and 4 huntsman + FD to see exactly how many frames each version takes.

Sadly, fraps was the only thing I could think of for testing it. something is wonky either way, though, and has been for some time.

[CWood]

Given that, and the fact that many more of us are running S:P more of the time now, perhaps we should take a closer look at which ones have the greater impact.

Figuring a standard 10-second rotation*, you can expect Deadly Precision to generate at least 1 Focus per cycle (10 potential crits x whatever your crit rate is) regardless of stance. Add in outside buffs and you're looking at 2-3 Focus per 10 seconds from DP. EP can't touch that.

*- SB > PS > RoA > lolBA > PS > QS > QS > PS

Note: The above rotation requires 8 Focus per cycle, and returns 5 + (10*Crit Rate). Even with Swift Recovery + Intent Concentration, you're still looking at something of a Focus deficit. In a short fight (under 3 minutes or so) it shouldn't be an issue, but in longer fights you'll either have to supplement your Focus generation or suck up using more induction shots.

[Duredhel]

Sadly, fraps was the only thing I could think of for testing it. something is wonky either way, though, and has been for some time.

Doing some quick math, if they subtracted the huntsman bonus after the FD -0.2s it would be 1.62s and 1.44s for the 3 huntsman and 4 huntsman bonus, respectively. So if the tooltip is to believed (debatable) it should read 1.6s and 1.4s, but instead reads 1.6s and 1.5s. Could still be rounding errors, but yes, FRAPs should tell the tale conclusively.

[Dom12]

Figuring a standard 10-second rotation*, you can expect Deadly Precision to generate at least 1 Focus per cycle (10 potential crits x whatever your crit rate is) regardless of stance. Add in outside buffs and you're looking at 2-3 Focus per 10 seconds from DP. EP can't touch that.

*- SB > PS > RoA > lolBA > PS > QS > QS > PS

Note: The above rotation requires 8 Focus per cycle, and returns 5 + (10*Crit Rate). Even with Swift Recovery + Intent Concentration, you're still looking at something of a Focus deficit. In a short fight (under 3 minutes or so) it shouldn't be an issue, but in longer fights you'll either have to supplement your Focus generation or suck up using more induction shots.

I guess that's with both Strong Draw and Arrow Storm? With only Strong, your cost is 9 focus. So if you run S:P most of the time, the priority for focus-traits should probably be:
Strong Draw
Deadly Precision
Enduring Precision
Arrow Storm
And obviously, if you spend much time in S:S or S:E, AS moves above EP.

[CWood]

I guess that's with both Strong Draw and Arrow Storm?

Yeah. I had mentioned that, but it must have been lost in one of the many pre-post edits. Also, that order looks pretty solid to me.

[dhatcher1]

Are you saying you usually don't use BA in your rotation?

I use bleed, but never traited it and dont have the legacy. Im not as disciplined and rigid in shot rotation as I should be and probably dont keep bleeding up 100% of the time. My main is my guard so I am more used to looking for skills to be available rather than running a repetitive timed sequence. I probably over use merciful for fun (I used to trait it for big crit damage), unless its important to keep available for corruption removal (like for Cargaraf).

[Duredhel]

Doing some quick math, if they subtracted the huntsman bonus after the FD -0.2s it would be 1.62s and 1.44s for the 3 huntsman and 4 huntsman bonus, respectively. So if the tooltip is to believed (debatable) it should read 1.6s and 1.4s, but instead reads 1.6s and 1.5s. Could still be rounding errors, but yes, FRAPs should tell the tale conclusively.

Frap results of ISB induction with various huntsman and FD bonii can be found here.

[D3-Rook]

The combat system has changed so much since this test that I wonder if it is still valid.

[Leadfingers]

Could still be rounding errors, but yes, FRAPs should tell the tale conclusively.

As long as the animation delay bugs still pollute the system, I don't even think FRAPS can do much to clear this up.

/shrug