What? No Illiteration?

[PF-Grumpy]

When a Freep player uses sprint or HiPs to get away and they have DoTs on them Charrk and I are always there doing a count down...

C'mon you sucker 200 more points till you are dead, 170!....oooo 87!...42!!! GAH he got away! Its frustrating but entertaining at the same time.

Just want to add that I was a very strong supporter of removing DF once you engaged in combat. DF takes a player totally away from the fight, a sprint (tho frustrating) HiPs (frustrating also) does not, that player could run right into other enemy players, even tho most times its not the case, so for me they are not always the I win button that DF is.

It really is.. trying to sway their morale bar like Fisk waving the ball fair.

The fact of the matter is....DF had no counter when it was in-combat and DR does have a counter, since you can still kill them before they get away. People need to get over it and just play the game.

I always knew, when I woke up in the rez circle dead after DFing tht the creeps were laughing at me

[Radardog]

The fact of the matter is....DF had no counter when it was in-combat and DR does a counter, since you can still kill them before they get away. People need to get over it and just play the game.

Read my thread.

1) You can die after DF.
2) You can never use DF to get a kill.

Dying rage can be used to gain infamy and improve your character. DF will never provide that luxury, so even if the odds are in your favor of coming out alive, it will never give you a win. In that respect, Dying Rage is far superior: It can be used for a win (you gain infamy), a tie (no one gains infamy), and a loss (your opponent gains renown).

[romoen]

I use them to escape death but not to cheat my opponent out of their points.

That doesn't make sense to me.

Escaping death is cheating your opponent out of their points. (Although I wouldn't use the word cheating.)

• Scenario 1: Champ X has 50 HP, they hit sprint and get away, but die from a Warg waiting 200 meters away. The Creep that got them to 50 HP was awarded nothing.
• Scenario 2: Burg X has 50 HP, they hit HiPs and get away, but die from a Warg waiting 200 meters away. The Creep that got them to 50 HP was awarded nothing.
• Scenario 3: Captain X has 1 HP, they hit Last Stand and Sprint and get away, but die from a Warg waiting 200 meters away. The Creep that got them to 50 HP was awarded nothing.
• Scenario 4: Weaver X has 50 HP, they burrow, pop up and hit Web the Earth and get away, but die from a Hunter waiting 200 meters away. The Freep that got them to 50 HP was awarded nothing.
• Scenario 5: Warg X has 50 HP, they hit sprint and get away, but die from a Hunter waiting 200 meters away. The Freep that got them to 50 HP was awarded nothing.
• Scenario 6: Warg X has 50 HP, they hit Dissappear and get away, but die from a Hunter waiting 200 meters away. The Freep that got them to 50 HP was awarded nothing.
• Scenario 7: Reaver X has 50 HP, they hit DR to sprint away and die. The Freep that got them to 50 HP was awarded nothing.

All those scenarios end the same way. There is no difference. Just because some classes have Sprints and Dissappears that don't cause their guaranteed death afterward doesn't make it any less of an unrewarding feeling to the opponent that worked them down to a death but was denied.

[Forza]

Yes yes...

Reavers burst run dieing rage, Wargs sprint, Burgs HiPs, Captains last stand, minstrels bubble, there's a myriad of get the heck outta dodge skills. Who cares, and why do people expect opponents to stand there and take a death for no reason. Your sig explains this line of thought quite well.

Who cares you ask, well I bet that if captains had 200% run speed available every 5 minutes instead of last stand every 15 minutes and your warg didn't have sprint, you would care.

[Thane9]

Disagree Luc, it wasn't uncommon for DF to work and the hunter to still die. Read my aforementioned thread for more analysis.

Don't get me wrong. DF imho is a terrible skill. All I'm saying is that DR is not significantly better than other existing escape skills. If/when it's used purely as an escape skill.

It MAY be better than other existing offensive skills though, particularly in light of it's dual function to kill THEN get away, thereby removing it's "cost" from the equation...that's the issue I take with it.

Lets face it folks. We ALL know players who will run instead of fight. And a R9 Reaver using DR is a rare offender just due to the nature of what reavers generally need to do to get R9 in the first place. They need to carry that shame with them. I hope they enjoy their rating. Because that's all they're getting.

Is DR problematic? Yeah, sure.

But IMHO there are FAR bigger fish to fry.

[PF-Grumpy]

That doesn't make sense to me.


Escaping death is cheating your opponent out of their points. (Although I wouldn't use the word cheating.)

• Scenario 1: Champ X has 50 HP, they hit sprint and get away, but die from a Warg waiting 200 meters away. The Creep that got them to 50 HP was awarded nothing.
• Scenario 2: Burg X has 50 HP, they hit HiPs and get away, but die from a Warg waiting 200 meters away. The Creep that got them to 50 HP was awarded nothing.
• Scenario 3: Captain X has 1 HP, they hit Last Stand and Sprint and get away, but die from a Warg waiting 200 meters away. The Creep that got them to 50 HP was awarded nothing.
• Scenario 4: Weaver X has 50 HP, they burrow, pop up and hit Web the Earth and get away, but die from a Hunter waiting 200 meters away. The Freep that got them to 50 HP was awarded nothing.
• Scenario 5: Warg X has 50 HP, they hit sprint and get away, but die from a Hunter waiting 200 meters away. The Freep that got them to 50 HP was awarded nothing.
• Scenario 6: Warg X has 50 HP, they hit Dissappear and get away, but die from a Hunter waiting 200 meters away. The Freep that got them to 50 HP was awarded nothing.
• Scenario 7: Reaver X has 50 HP, they hit DR to sprint away and die. The Freep that got them to 50 HP was awarded nothing.

All those scenarios end the same way. There is no difference. Just because some classes have Sprints and Dissappears that don't cause their guaranteed death afterward doesn't make it any less of an unrewarding feeling to the opponent that worked them down to a death but was denied.

I can buy all that (I'm feeling too lazy to read the examples).


My only argument would be that my sprint does not afford me dmg bonuses DR does.

[Radardog]

That doesn't make sense to me.

Escaping death is cheating your opponent out of their points. (Although I wouldn't use the word cheating.)All those scenarios end the same way. There is no difference. Just because some classes have Sprints and Dissappears that don't cause their guaranteed death afterward doesn't make it any less of an unrewarding feeling to the opponent that worked them down to a death but was denied.

I think it's just a symptom of open PvP zones.

It's probably difficult to code in logic that will account for every possible distance situation.

But I'm just a fanboi for instanced PvMP, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

[romoen]

My only argument would be that my sprint does not afford me dmg bonuses DR does.

What good does a damage bonus do if you're running away?

Why do you care that they have a damage boost if you can guarantee their death when their skill ticks down?

[Thane9]

1) You can die after DF.
.

That death is meaningless though.

No loss of rating.
No gain for the opponent.
You're dead where you mapped to...which means when you release...voila you're back in the same spot.

I'll give you #2. Absolutely correct. DF is the ULTIMATE offensive screw.

But Dying after DF? Meaningless.


---


You want to talk cheap? How about a bug that burrows during a fight to reduce the amount of renown you can earn when you do kill them? THAT's screwing someone out of a reward.

The other escapes are just that, escapes.

At LEAST DR kills the reaver. And for that reason alone it's not a good escape skill.

[PF-Grumpy]

What good does a damage bonus do if you're running away?

Why do you care that they have a damage boost if you can guarantee their death when their skill ticks down?

DR (correct me if I am wrong), affords the reaver DMG bonuses with the thought that they would fight to their last breath to kill their opponent. Therefor the skill is called Dying Rage and not Dying G T F O.


FWIW I typically use my Sprints, Charge, HiPS offensively. I always thought champs who sprinted ~out~ of combat were a little Froo Frooey anyways.



Edit: oh and again.. I never said I was against DR. I just corrected Vader when he said indigenous (sp?) Landy orcs weren;t using it.

[Radardog]

DR (correct me if I am wrong), affords the reaver DMG bonuses with the thought that they would fight to their last breath to kill their opponent. Therefor the skill is called Dying Rage and not Dying G T F O.


FWIW I typically use my Sprints, Charge, HiPS offensively. I always thought champs who sprinted ~out~ of combat were a little Froo Frooey anyways.

Dying Rage is a misconception. It's really Dying R.A.G.E.

Running
Away
Giggling
Excitedly

[Thane9]

That is what reavers use DR for.

That is what one transfer reaver uses DR for.

I have not seen a Landy R9 use DR in that way even once.

I HAVE been killed, and killed, Landy reavers in DR however.

Maybe I'm lucky? Maybe I'm an easy enough target they stick around to get the kill? Maybe I'm not fighting a R9 reaver in a huge zergball so they feel they have a fight they can fight instead of trying to run?

Problematic? Sure.

A big deal in the grand scope of things, including escape skills? IMHO no.

[Sujae]

It really is.. trying to sway their morale bar like Fisk waving the ball fair.

Im going to have to find out the meaning of this.

[PF-Grumpy]

That is what one transfer reaver uses DR for.

I have not seen a Landy R9 use DR in that way even once.

I HAVE been killed, and killed, Landy reavers in DR however.

Maybe I'm lucky? Maybe I'm an easy enough target they stick around to get the kill? Maybe I'm not fighting a R9 reaver in a huge zergball so they feel they have a fight they can fight instead of trying to run?

Problematic? Sure.

A big deal in the grand scope of things, including escape skills? IMHO no.

This is what I have a problem with. I have seen two Landy reavers do it.


Again listen closely, ~I don't care that they did it!~. I am just correcting your statement that this is yet another issue with transfers.

[Thane9]

I'll ask this to the general populous.

Why don't people complain this way about warg sprint?

IMHO, because warg sprint doesn't auto kill the warg.

Warg sprint is in fact BETTER than DR as an escape skill.

ALL of my issues with DR are on the offensive side. I think it's a bit much given the cost. The death timer isn't short enough, or the power is too great, one or the other.

But as an escape skill? Meh.

[romoen]

I have not seen a Landy R9 use DR in that way even once.

This is what I have a problem with. I have seen two Landy reavers do it.

There's only like 3 Rank 9 Landy Reavers anyway and two of them don't play that often and both of them are too aggressive and play in raids to even have room to use it to kill themselves away from a fight anyway.

Really not sure where the Landy vs. Transfer reavers discussion is coming from.

[Thane9]

This is what I have a problem with. I have seen two Landy reavers do it.


Again listen closely, ~I don't care that they did it!~. I am just correcting your statement that this is yet another issue with transfers.

You cannot correct my statement, because MY statement is about MY observations.

I personally saw the E reaver do this no less than 4 times on the first day I saw him in the moors.

I've seen him do it on the order of 2 dozen times total.

And I have never, not once seen any other reaver do this. Not even the OTHER E reaver.

And I've fought numerous reavers in DR. This isn't based on no experience with the R9+ reavers.

[Thane9]

There's only like 3 Rank 9 Landy Reavers anyway and two of them don't play that often and both of them are too aggressive and play in raids to even have room to use it to kill themselves away from a fight anyway.

Really not sure where the Landy vs. Transfer reavers discussion is coming from.

I'm pretty sure there are 7 Landy R9s and 2 transfers.

I could be wrong...

But the issue is because in my experience there is ONE of those reavers who uses it to deny renown. He HAPPENS to be a transfer, and instead of naming names I use that term to distinguish who he is. I think we all know who we're talking about but we're trying to not get the thread shut down by naming names.

This isn't a "transfer" issue. It's just the label that's getting applied to this guy so we all know who we're talking about.

[PF-Grumpy]

Luc, You said

That is what one transfer reaver uses DR for.

That is not stating an opinion. You are stating what sounds like fact. I don't care if you two say other Landy +9 reavers arent doing it, I have seen them. Except for Jar-of-dirt. He's the onlyone I HAVEN'T seen doing it.

So if you are mostly solo all over the map, or you are not playing the game you do not have the opportunity to see as much as those of us who do play, and dont spend most of our time on the map alone.


I even said into /OOC, "Did X Reaver really just DR out of range?" and the reply I got from numerous, non-***-hats was "Does it all the time"

[Olympic]

I can't wait to get to rank 9 so I can sit in Grams blowing myself up while manipulating the pop buff.

[romoen]

This isn't a "transfer" issue. It's just the label that's getting applied to this guy so we all know who we're talking about.

But that's who you're talking about. Others are saying their experiences are different.

Either way I still think it's an absurd complaint. Other than finding it annoying just like watching Champs sprint, Burgs HiPs, Hunters root and run until out of combat then DF, Wargs Dissappear/Sprint, etc; I wouldn't care if a Reaver used it to get away from me and die in a hole alone and crying for their mother.

P.S. SEVEN landy rank 9 reavers? Who the hell are they and wow I'm oblivious.

[Overtone]

Ok, then what about the other skills that are utilized in the same manner?

Other escape skills are tangential related to Dying Rage, especially considering that Dying Rage is not an escape skill. Pre-3.1, most Orcs that could, didn't even trait it. The majority of R9+ Defilers still do not.

Turbine gave the skill a buff so it could be useful to Reavers in combat. Using the skill to charge out of range to preserve your rating and deny your opponents renown was not the intent. All this behavior does is encourage Turbine to nerf the skill down the road because it is not WAI.

TBH, a lot of this respect for the other side going around is coming from people who think rolling over and dying and not using the classes to its full ability somehow displays honor for lack of a better word.

Using Dying Rage to run is not using the skill to its full ability. With Dying Rage, one thing is certain...and that is death. How one uses the buff before they die is up to the player. They can use it like Java did last night and actually finish a kill and gain infamy in the midst of certain defeat. Or they can pop the skill, only use the speed buff, run away like a coward, and still die. You tell me which case is using the skill to its maximum potential.

I know which one I will be doing on my Reaver when he gets access to the skill and it has nothing to do with playing yella.

[PF-Grumpy]

I can't wait to get to rank 9 so I can sit in Grams blowing myself up while manipulating the pop buff.

PM me so I can log a creep and watch this. I'll get some beers first.

[Sujae]

Luc you are talking about playstyles, you have your playstyle just like everyone else. You talk about not having cooldowns in a fight as tho you have had your right arm removed. That is your playstyle we understand that.

Now as to a Warg using sprint, yep you will see them use it but how many do you see one hanging around a fight, be it in a raid situation or smaller/solo fights due to blood lust? I think blood lust wins out far more over sprint.

[Olympic]

Who is anyone to decide how a particular skill should be used?

The skill is what it is, people use it for different reasons.

Its no different than ez-mode burgs using HIPS to pull mobs during ninja takes of keeps...was THAT what Turbine had in mind?