An Ettenmoors Blog: May 19th, 2010

[Thane9]

One word, Luc: Infamy. The easier the better. Also, the more infamy this other creep gets the more powerful creeps in general are (since everything creepside is based on rank). It's not hard to understand. Now, not agreeing with a person's position is one thing, but as a person who holds positions with which many people disagree, I'd wager you can understand why your outcry over their position really doesn't matter to them.

It's impossible to understand.

I know you're suggesting it's just greed, and I understand the idea of human nature being greedy.

I see no benefit in being greedy in that way. Why play a game just for points? Why not be greedy in terms of wanting a good fight? That's where MY greed shows up. I'd NEVER call out a good fight because I'm too greedy for the fight. Even if calling it out would INSURE my victory and renown points. I'd rather have the fight.

I honestly play the game for the game. For the fight. Not some bigger number on some page somewhere.

If you just want numbers on a sheet why not just play PvE side?

[Thane9]

We had the Pop-buff, because Cel had over 50 creeps on track, not because freeps were leaving. There is no question there were that many in that keep.

There was a stretch of time where there was over a full raid of creeps upstairs and over a full raid of creeps at the door/downstairs and if all the creeps had just pushed the CG then the flag it would've flipped a half hour earlier.

There were crazy numbers of creeps during that push.

[Feycat]

Well I thought last night was a lot of fun. Some good old fashioned keeps battles, I was glad to be part of. Good stuff.

Charrk, you owe me a new dress. You totally tore mine up! :P

Really nice video and I didn't know that was you until I was told later on, heh. Okay, that UI is really nice, where did you pick it up!

The UI is Uth, http://www.lotrointerface.com/downlo...fo266-Uth.html I really like it - the best parts of course are the GIANT dressing room windows and the big re-organized trade window, but the skin also works really well with my Zfang gamepad for coordinating so I don't have to click as much (I'm a lefty)

And yeah, I wasn't really there to advertise who I was, I thought I might get flak. I just wanted to see a raid from the other side and contribute where I was playing.

Not knowing where Tarbosh was at all times was TERRIFYING. LOL!

[Overtone]

You guys did get rolled a couple of times, but... you did some rolling yourself on under level and solo creeps, so the the complaint seems somewhat hypocritical.

There is a big difference between roaming the map and then making a kill when you run across it, and air striking a group that you know is already outnumbered. The hypocrisy is only as deep as maps, and Freeps don't have them.

Regarding solos, you are absolutely right. When we encounter a solo Creep near a map-in point, we kill that Creep as fast as possible, regardless of rank. The expectation is that a call out is being made on us, and when we have the pop buff, there is no wisdom in waiting for the zerg.

I encountered two 1v1s and one 2v1 last night while I was trying to catch up to my group. I won the two 1v1s, but lost the 2v1 even though I did get a kill out of it. In all three cases, I did not call for help from my group, even though doing so would have been as simple as saying a word. A good fight is always better than points.

By the way, it was 13 rolling 6, not 13 rolling 8. We had 8 earlier in the night. We ended the night with 6. You should know. You participated in the zerg and contributed to ruining what would have otherwise been a really good fight at TR hs.

[Thane9]

BTW, 2:34-2:50 or so is an example of fail defense. WAY too many freeps standing around instead of hitting the creeps on the stairs where there's a nice natural choke point and LoS options for anyone getting hit.

By the time they're upstairs it's too late, because every position provides stand points and LoS for their BAs and healers.

IMHO there are only 3 defenses to TR.

1> Front door/first hall, use the wall to the left as you're looking out the first hall as a LoS point for ranged and healers.

2> Stairs, NOT the bottom, because creeps can then LoS you bigtime.

3> CG room...but this can be seriously ugly...it's the worst of the three in terms of providing a choke point. But the added danger of the npcs can be helpful and LoS opportunities are there on the ledges and around the corner if they haven't ALL committed to getting inside the room, and last ditch you can jump into the flag room if too much focuses on you.

Everything else is just hoping for repops/oil so you can push at them and force them to a> run into more pain behind them, or b> be forced to stand still, in which case they get ground up.

All too often I see freeps trying to defend the bottom floor middle room with people in the second hall...or defending the top hallway by being in the main room upstairs.

IMHO these are positions that are VERY VERY beneficial to creeps, as they can easily create firing lanes for their BAs/healers and can more or less shut down any melee effectiveness.

And when freeps lose their melee's it's just a matter of time before it's over. Freep ranged CANNOT out damage creep healing. Not if the creep ranged/healing are allowed to set their feet and remain fixed.

[Feycat]

2> Stairs, NOT the bottom, because creeps can then LoS you bigtime.

Those stairs are DREADFUL to heal on.

[Trinstar]

Had a lot of fun earlier in the evening with Rashka's raid. Had some epic fights, that unfortunately the lag made really frustrating at times. Still, it was great to see so many people out on both sides. I had to leave halfway through the TR push to PvE with kin, but it sounds like that was an amazing fight too.

Later went back out with a small group. Had some fun fights here and there, but for the most part late night is still devoid of the good small grouping we used to have. Oh well.

You guys did get rolled a couple of times, but... you did some rolling yourself on under level and solo creeps, so the the complaint seems somewhat hypocritical. 8 rolling 1 and 13 rolling 8...hmmm where is the bigger disparity. I distinctly remember Trin popping TnG when I was on her after you guys rode up on me alone then 5 secs after popping the cooldown she hit exploit opening and all of you went yellow (definitely necessary right?).

Sorry, I have no memory of encountering you yesterday. But of course we're going to kill smaller groups we happen across, and don't complain when larger groups happen to run into us and kill us too. It's when we're having good even fights and then half again as many creeps map in that gets old.

[Method]

There is a big difference between roaming the map and then making a kill when you run across it, and air striking a group that you know is already outnumbered. The hypocrisy is only as deep as maps, and Freeps don't have them.

Regarding solos, you are absolutely right. When we encounter a solo Creep near a map-in point, we kill that Creep as fast as possible, regardless of rank. The expectation is that a call out is being made on us, and when we have the pop buff, there is no wisdom in waiting for the zerg.

I encountered two 1v1s and one 2v1 last night while I was trying to catch up to my group. I won the two 1v1s, but lost the 2v1 even though I did get a kill out of it. In all three cases, I did not call for help from my group, even though doing so would have been as simple as saying a word. A good fight is always better than points.

By the way, it was 13 rolling 6, not 13 rolling 8. We had 8 earlier in the night. We ended the night with 6. You should know. You participated in the zerg and contributed to ruining what would have otherwise been a really good fight at TR hs.

I was never at TR HS when you got zerged. The last time I saw you was when I was running back from the afformentioned yellows on me when I was running down the river bank by stab. Then I saw you guys get killed on TA side of stab on the way back from rezzing after I got zerged and made my way up to gv hill saw you guys horsed either waiting for people or afk..then I logged.

And, yes, you were being called out because of the few people getting caught by you guys when they were solo. A majority of the times you saw me I was late to the fun and I wasn't really responding to the call outs more so hoping to finding a straggler, a soloer, or the burg that kept going to stab solo (which i did finally catch right before you guys ran me over).

[Method]

Sorry, I have no memory of encountering you yesterday. But of course we're going to kill smaller groups we happen across, and don't complain when larger groups happen to run into us and kill us too. It's when we're having good even fights and then half again as many creeps map in that gets old.

I wasn't complaining, it was me critisizing the play. More so making the comment of the fact that there were eight of you and you made the decision to pop a defensive CD at like 85% health with me being the only creep in the vacinity and nothing else attacking you. Then you popped EO for yellows lol. I have never understood burgs who pop evasion then run in and stun their target, gj now you have wasted a life line...lol. I could careless if you guys roll me or not and I don't expect you to let me go about my business.

Furthermore, it shows the fact that people just button smash regardless of what side they are on. You wasting your CDs when in very little danger when it is 6-8v1, etc. Its almost like an everyday occurence though with the burgs and LMs on this server. Lets see, the raid the day before yesterday with you and 3 other burgs ride up on me around poor LC. I popped charge (and ran into you guys and through you back towards LC) and 2 seconds later all the burgs (including you) and LMs are dismounted trying to Mez or stun me with charge still being up and not even halfway through its duration. Little things like this prove who the button smashers are and aren't.

[Aedon]

Last night was a fantastic night of fighting. The fight at TR was the best in a long time.



Freeps fought hard to defend the keep they had stolen from us. But with well laid tactics, they were soon over-thrown by the superior forces of the Great Eye.
Once they were forced out, or lay dead at the feet of the horde, we raised the glorious red flag above TR once again.

There was rumblings, talk of a great dwarven force which was mustering in the wasteland where the bearded rats dwell. They would soon come, at the heals of the man thing known as Leonwulf. TThey too will learn soon enough that none will stand before the might of Sauron. This false Wulf, this tark will feed the bellies of our young, and the dwarven uprising will lay in ruin at the boarders of Gramsfoot.

AroooOoOoOooOoOoOO


Thanks to all, creep and freep last night who fought the good fight. I was having so much fun that with each death, I ran gleefully back into the fray.

/salute to all

[Thane9]

Those stairs are DREADFUL to heal on.

You don't heal on the stairs. You heal safely on top.

NO ONE dealing damage should ever be standing still there. Push down, ebb up to make their targeting useless, push down, ebb up. If you're dotted get heals.

If the creeps push THEN you can stop at the top and just kill anything that pokes his head up.

EVERY creep will die, often more than once.

[Obsidian-moth]

You don't heal on the stairs. You heal safely on top.

NO ONE dealing damage should ever be standing still there. Push down, ebb up to make their targeting useless, push down, ebb up. If you're dotted get heals.

If the creeps push THEN you can stop at the top and just kill anything that pokes his head up.

EVERY creep will die, often more than once.

Excatly what I was trying to achieve last night! Its why I was moving constantly, UP the stairs!! Now push down, PUSH, okay back up! I was hoping I wasn't making people dizzy.

[Olympic]

You don't heal on the stairs. You heal safely on top.

NO ONE dealing damage should ever be standing still there. Push down, ebb up to make their targeting useless, push down, ebb up. If you're dotted get heals.

If the creeps push THEN you can stop at the top and just kill anything that pokes his head up.

EVERY creep will die, often more than once.

You should just go ahead and write the book of absolutes.

[AdarinOuest]

You should just go ahead and write the book of absolutes.

It IS how he sees the world isn't it...

He could name it The Tao of Luc: My Way or the Highway

[Raiffe]

You should just go ahead and write the book of absolutes.

Thought that was Mein Kampf?

[BloodCelt]

Stopped a couple of Ninja's on both Basterni and Nioba last night.

I was in a group, but mainly wandering/scouting alone, so I got crushed by roaming groups/half-raids all night. (No end of hilarity from Sars about the death spam from me) No complaints here though.. I still gots paid.

Bastnobia

[PF-Grumpy]

Thought that was Mein Kampf?

Wow. I'm calling off-sides!

[Feycat]

Wow. I'm calling off-sides!

The thread's been Godwin'd! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law

[Raiffe]

The thread's been Godwin'd! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law

That's awesome! I've never heard of this

[Sujae]

This makes no sense.

Why would a group call out another group so OTHERS can get a piece of the pie?

This is all hypothetical...but why does a solo call out a solo? Why does a group of 8 call out a group of 6? Why does a raid call out a raid?

Fight it out. Let the other groups worry about finding their own fights.

IMHO there are really really rare situations worthy of "calling" anyone out.
And even RARER situations for a huge map in response.

The reason any Creep calls out Freeps in those situations is because we DO NOT rank off of NPC's, we need those kills from the Freeps. You are going to have to put Pv(M)P ethics and good sportsmanship aside to understand this Luc. Its why Creeps agree that if its a Freep its dead. Some Creeps have certain codes they follow as they rank up because they CAN, otherwise if you are in the Moors on your Freep expect to see what you are asking about above. This has nothing to do with a name that hoovers over your head, it has to do with the fact that you are a Freep, by the way I am NOT speaking of your (Luc's) head specifically.

[Sujae]

Sorry, I also wanted to add that I had a blast in the Moors last night as well.

/salute

[PF-Grumpy]

The thread's been Godwin'd! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law

Buuuuut bsaed on the data we have. Godwin is wrong. This thread was only three pages long when the reference was made, and the 30 page threads had no references.

[AdarinOuest]

The reason any Creep calls out Freeps in those situations is because we DO NOT rank off of NPC's, we need those kills from the Freeps. You are going to have to put Pv(M)P ethics and good sportsmanship aside to understand this Luc. Its why Creeps agree that if its a Freep its dead. Some Creeps have certain codes they follow as they rank up because they CAN, otherwise if you are in the Moors on your Freep expect to see what you are asking about above. This has nothing to do with a name that hoovers over your head, it has to do with the fact that you are a Freep, by the way I am NOT speaking of your (Luc's) head specifically.

This.

I am not in the business of working and not getting paid. Nor, I assume, are you, Luc. If I engage a lone freep when I am on my creep I have nowhere near a 100% chance of receiving infamy. Too many variables are at play.

If I call out the location, however, my chances of receiving infamy skyrocket. You can choose your adage, but "It is better to have a bird in the hand than two in the bush" really strikes true here. Yes, you may feel abused, but you (and any other freep not just the one with a "Luc" floating above his head) are are bag of infamy and nothing more.

Now if you want to argue about something argue about the system that supports this point of view. I'm all for making creep skills and "unlocks" work off of a system other than infamy, but until such time if you see me out there consider yourself dead if you take longer to kill me than the run my creep friends have from the nearest map point.

[Thane9]

This.

I am not in the business of working and not getting paid. Nor, I assume, are you, Luc. If I engage a lone freep when I am on my creep I have nowhere near a 100% chance of receiving infamy. Too many variables are at play.

If I call out the location, however, my chances of receiving infamy skyrocket. You can choose your adage, but "It is better to have a bird in the hand than two in the bush" really strikes true here. Yes, you may feel abused, but you (and any other freep not just the one with a "Luc" floating above his head) are are bag of infamy and nothing more.

Now if you want to argue about something argue about the system that supports this point of view. I'm all for making creep skills and "unlocks" work off of a system other than infamy, but until such time if you see me out there consider yourself dead if you take longer to kill me than the run my creep friends have from the nearest map point.

I am saddened by this take on PvMP, becuase essentially it just means whoever can zerg faster wins. It's not about PvMP at all, it's just about swarming to the target and obliterating him with no risk.

And it's probably the core issue that I'll never understand, or appreciate, the people who disagree with me on this issue.

R5 is the "break" point with respect to creep power. I find the idea that creeps NEED infamy over PvMP a sad concept. R5 is easy to achieve, and I'm particularly talking about R7+ creeps who call out and respond to call outs.

You've made your perspective clear. You playing creepside for infamy.

I'm playing for the gameplay.

And believe it or not, I'm sure people who think like you suggest above will not believe me, I'd rather die 100% of the time in a good fight, than win in 100% assured fights and rake in renown.

I solo'd my reaver to R4. Solo. Not leeching from raids. Not grouping. Not calling out. Solo. In SoA. Not the new moors where reavers even blue put out dangerous levels of damage.

And I'd continue to play that way as long as I was interested in playing a creep.

I have NO desire for unearned Renown. But maybe that's not a common outlook on the game from people who just want points.

[AdarinOuest]

I misrepresented myself earlier as the freeps I encounter out there should know (Luc being one of them). I am not a peerson that calls out automatically. I think you are right about rank 5 or 6 being the "break point" and a solo rank 7 should fight it out.

That said, I hold grudges and if you beat me I will call out your location and leave it to you to get away

Anyway, I came off a little more intense in my explanation of why people call out automatically.

Cheers,

Yarg