A Basic Combat Primer for Fellowships

[Surlek2112]

Now fully maintained in the Lorebook: A Basic Combat Primer for Fellowships

These are reposted from my thread during Closed Beta. There could be many differences in actual tactics that could change with a patch at any time, however, since I keep it basic with overall Fellowship Strategy, many of these ideas carry forward into Live.

I recently put some of my old MMO thoughts and strategies down in an email to help out some of the newer players in my Real Life Kinship of Friends. Some have never played MMOs before, like my nephew, and some haven’t played any that take real strategy in a long time. One of them told me that I should edit them up a bit and post them here…If there are any additions you would like to see, or clarifications, corrections, etc, please feel free to post them and I’ll update it. Keep in mind, this is just a general basic strategy that allows many types of classes to fill the many roles, it isn’t intended to state: “Oh, you need a Minstrel or you can never go into an Instance…” I think the groups that bend the norms can be highly successful, however, the ideas have to branch from somewhere and this is where it begins:

Main Tank (MT): This is the Guardian of the group if one is available, if not, then it is the one with the highest Armor/Morale/Mitigation. The key is taking hits and managing aggro. It is his job to hold aggro on ALL targets, no matter what. He is to chase peelers and bring them back, usually the whole mob of creatures will follow him around when he does this, but he must get aggro back.

The Puller: This is the person in charge of running to within aggro range of the mob, or hitting it from range to get their attention. The puller can be variable...I always like seeing ranged pulling since there are no monks to "separate" groups so the best thing is for the MT to have Throwing Knives, Axes, etc to pull with. The only downfall is a shorter range than a bow, but the MT already has the attention of the target and his friends. If the Hunter can shoot one weak arrow to pull, great, but in most cases, they hit very hard even on plain Auto-Attack and that makes the MT’s job harder.

Main Assist (MA): This is the next best fighter in the group, usually a Champion, Captain, or other Guardian. The MA is the person who has the next most Morale and AC. He will call targets, etc. When the MT or other Puller pulls a group of targets, he will prioritize them. This is very important. When you get groups, you want to get rid of the lesser critters first, they die the fastest, but their damage stacks up. So while the MT is busy switching targets and making them all mad, the MA will have only one selected. Everyone must ASSIST ONLY the MA...ie. Main Assist. If a Champion or Captain is not available, this job will go to either a Burglar or a Hunter. Neither a Loremaster nor Minstrel will ever be the MA. Once the MA is on the correct target, he must never switch until it is dead. BTW, Archer and Caster Mobs are always FIRST Priority for the Main Assist.

Healer (or MH for Main Healer): Self explanatory. The healer’s job is to keep everyone alive...however, to make life for him simple; he is only to focus on the Main Tank. The MT is the only thing taking damage during a "good" fight; therefore, he shouldn't have to worry about anyone else. If he has to heal someone other than the MT, then someone isn't doing their job, or doing it too well. He must avoid Area of Effect Heals, since it causes the most aggro, and must control his direct healing in order to not draw too much aggro at one time. In this game, it is the Minstrel...if the Minstrel is not around, then the Loremaster or Captain must make do, but mobs must be easier. If there is no healer, then it is up to each class to do their own self-heals as appropriate, and just take it easy killing singles around the countryside as Elites will be near impossible except in the best coordinated groups.

Crowd Control (CC): This is anyone who has any sort of Stun or Mezz. In our group, the primary crowd controller is the Loremaster. He has a single target Mezz spell (not a stun) that last for 30 secs with a 15 second refresh from what I recall. What that boils down to is that he can "lock up" two targets as long as he wishes barring resists, and can lock up one target nigh forever. The target he wants to lock down is usually the one doing the most damage, which in nearly all cases is the Boss, or highest LVL in the mob group. He must physically target the highest mob, and focus on keeping him quiet and in a Mezzed state. Mezz differs from Stun because Mezz will be broken by any sort of damage, AOE included. The only thing that breaks the Loremaster's Mezz should be the spell duration, or the Main Tank. No one else should be attacking that mob ever, and as long as the MA and MT learn what a Mezzed mob looks like, it won't happen. After Mezzing, the CC is free to open up any damage and offense available, however, he must always have enough power left over to remezz, and even "hold" a target indefinitely if the healer asks him to so that he may regen power. The CC is an important position, because if there is an add, and the MT can't get to the new mob in time, he must try to hold them off with a Mezz. Once the CC gets comfortable in that role, things will be literally lining up to die.

In LOTRO, the Burglar, Hunter, and the Minstrel also have some CC. How it all breaks out is as follows:

Loremaster - Blinding Flash...does NOT work on "The Dead" (30 second w/ 15 second refresh).
Minstrel – Cry of the Valor, which is a 10 second fear (Evil Only)
- Song of the Dead at lvl 18 ("the dead" only mez)
Burglar - Riddle - only works on Sentient Creatures (no animals or bugs) (30 dur/ 60 ref)
Hunter - Fear? - Only works on Animals. (bugs too?)

So therefore, we have to coordinate the crowd control a little bit. If we are in the Great Barrow, then the Loremaster cannot do CC and he becomes a DPS. But he must also help heal as much as possible on the MT because the Minstrel is worrying about CC a little as well. The Burglar loses a little DPS, but becomes a little CC as well.

And now, everyone else...
DPS (Damage per Second):
DPSers must be careful. Too much too soon, and now the Main Healer has to worry about you too much, and the MT is likely to suffer. A good rule of thumb until you know just how much it takes is to wait for the MT to engage all targets, assist the MA doing normal attacks and debuffs, and then start working in some specials. I would save the BIG Damage stuff for at least 2/3 to 1/2 of the Mob’s Health...once a creature gets to Half Health, I can almost guarantee that you won't be able to pull it off of the MT no matter what.

Secondary Healer: This is just someone in the role of keeping an eye on the health of everyone in the group OTHER THAN the MT. If the Minstrel gets attacked, and then the MT gets the aggro back, the Minstrel should not heal himself until the end of the fight...however, if you can Help a Fellow Out, and heal him a little in the meantime, then you might just save everyone's life.

That's MMORPG tactics in a nutshell...and that's also with a nicely balanced group. I know a lot of you know this, but some don't...and it's good to get a refresher.

What it boils down to...if the Healer dies, the MT Dies...if the MT Dies, everyone dies.

CC and MT keep things off the Healer, the Healer keeps the MT alive, the MA coordinates targets so they die faster, and everyone else /assist MA and DPSes until the fight is over. Easy.

Surlek
AKA

[Surlek2112]

Here are some examples of the sequencing involved:

Early in Beta 2, we had a Guardian Main Tank, two Hunter DPSs, a Burglar DPS, and a Healer between levels 17 and 20. We tried a few things, some worked, and some didn't. We were in the outdoor area south of the Forgotten Inn with Elite roamers, multiple groups of Elite mobs (up to 3), groupings close together, and fast respawns.

Hunter Pulling and as Main Assist:
-This was hard for MT to get aggro after the pull, even when the Hunter didn't hit with a special on the pull. Just toggling Auto-Attack was enough to cause problems.
-Any grouped monsters with the target went straight to the Puller, and MT had to scramble to pull them off.
-Hunters are flimsy; they aren't like the Monks of old from EQ that can pretty much shed damage very quick with AGI or lose aggro with a "Feign Death".
CONSENSUS: Not favorable. Since the Hunter does good damage both with specials and Auto-attack, he should not be used to pull except in very favorable conditions or a last resort.

Main Tank Pulling, Hunter as Main Assist:
-MT was able to get aggro easily on all mobs, switching to each one to hit as they stayed close to him.
-Could cause adds from him running back to us, but he'll learn an area or ranges to "add aggro" etc...That comes with time.
-Hunter as the Main Assist seemed to work, but when the mob might switch, Hunter was getting hammered. I, as a Burglar, had more Morale than a Hunter of the same level, plus better Evades and Dodges...perhaps worth a try.
CONSENSUS: Mostly Favorable. MT will get better and better at aggro management with level, and peels will not occur as often onto the Healer or Main Assist. MT also needs to dictate where the fighting will take place...where the mob was, or to the side, etc. He will be most familiar with aggro ranges in the long run. Everyone else needs to stay close, or stand on the side away from the next "camp" or pull.

Overall, not bad at all. Ideally we will use a Champion or Captain as the Main Assist (MA), so I will use MA to mean whoever is filling that role. Here is the progression that was "forgotten" a few times I noticed...this is what should be happening:
-MT pulls with an aggro building hit...and eventually with the AOE at lvl 22 or 24...of course, using discretion of proximity. If he can get a single pull, that is ideal.
-MA has MT targeted, when he notices movement of the Mobs, MA hits "F"...thus allowing him to switch to /assist MT. Do not use the “pass-through assist” as the MA on the MT. He needs to switch targets as needed, pass-thru assist will force you to switch with him, and that is not ideal. If you use "F" with the MT targeted, then your target becomes the first mob the MT hit...and when he is pulling, that is the first Target to die.
-MA keeps attacking the pulled target only, thus allowing everyone else to either Pass-thru target on him, or have him selected and hit F. It is simple...if you are not MA, then you have MA targeted during a pull. (except CC, I’ll get to him in a sec)
-Only attack the target with auto-attack or debuffs, slows, bleeds, etc, until the mob is at 2/3 health...then assume MT has enough aggro. During this, MT may need to keep switching, but most likely he will be able to /assist the MA on the main target as well, making sure the others are hitting him....or have been Mezzed.
-It would be best that everyone had already pressed "F" and are targeting the mob that is about to die directly, and not the MA anymore. This way, the MA can switch to the next target when it is about to die. Everyone else will stay on the dying Mob, thus, as soon as it dies, target the MA with the corresponding "F2-6" key (you have to learn that one early in the night, it changes), and then hit "F" again to /assist. By this time, MT has built up enough aggro with all mobs with one exception (mezzes).
-Rinse and repeat until all mobs in the group are dead.

A note on mezzing: When playing with a class that can Crowd Control...(alot of us, but some are limited) there are a few things I have noticed and some things we need to do. The mezzer needs to call out what he plans to mezz before the pull. If it is the Boss, or part of a group that is a lvl above everything else, this is what needs to be mezzed. While the MA and MT start targeting from the bottom up, the mezzer needs to target from the top down. This reduces incoming damage greatly, thus making the early part of the fight (the hardest part) much more manageable. The one who is mezzing needs to call out over VoiceChat what is mezzed. It is easy to break a mezz, but the only time it should happen is when the spell runs out before being refreshed, or the MT breaks it to start the fight. When you are playing with an active CC who is mezzing, then please do not do any Area of Effect Damage spells. One of the tradeoffs...but has to be done.

The CC will be mezzing when fighting Elites or above. If it is regular mobs, then mezzing is a waste of time when nuking can drop them like flies (provided they are of equal lvls). I know for a fact that the Loremaster will be able to effectively keep two mobs out of the fight, period...and can throw in an occasional debuff...but that is two less targets beating on the MT. He also needs to be telling the MT which one is about to release so the MT can break it with a big Aggro hit, etc, before it smashes the Healer or the Loremaster.

If a Loremaster is not in the group, then the classes that get a small CC, feel free to use it at will. If you see an add coming, try to lock it down...but first, call it out. If you are going to use it before the fight, then call it before the pull. For example, the other night I was using my Riddle on our initial pull as CC. It lasts 30 seconds with a minute refresh...if it got broken on the pull (someone on the wrong target during the pull, etc), then it was wasted, and now there was no way to mitigate some of the damage. During the first 30 seconds, we could sometimes kill the first target, but if the Riddle broke before we were done, guess where the mezzed mob was going? The Healer...while it was sitting there, only the healing was contributing to its aggro. That is why when something is mezzed, the one who mezzed it, or feared it, needs to keep their eye on it...when it is close to breaking, make sure the MT knows this, and can be ready to snatch aggro...he can do this, because all of the DPS in the group will still be on the first, nearly dead target. Everyone will improve and get a "Sense" of the timing. You can just hold the mouse over the "effect" under the mob's name, and if gives you a timer of when it will wear off. For my Burglar Riddle, I don't even need to look, since I know it is duration 30 seconds on a minute refresh timer...when my Riddle button is almost half gray, it is about to break. Of course, the only thing I can do then is give a heads up, since I can't refresh it.

The only talking during a large, hard fight should be:
-Which target to Pull and which target to CC.
-"Mezz resisted" or "So and So MEzzed"
-"Heal" - Usually not an issue...and any class other than MT only in an emergency...if you die, and the healer survives, he will pick you up. If the MT dies, we all die. If the Healer dies, we all die....running out of Power as a Healer, means death.
-"On Me" - Usually just the Healer or the CC, if he can't get it off with a mezz. This is the cue for the MT to come get it please...however, if the CC (Loremaster or whoever) has a CC ability available, try to use it first, but call it out, "I got IT". The MT should then switch off it...he will do this quickly, trust me...he hates breaking a brand new mezz.
-If a DPS calls "On Me" then the MT will do his best to get it off...but do not waste a mezz on it unless you are the one getting beat on. If a DPS gains aggro then it is usually his own fault for "over nuking" and not letting the tank get enough aggro at the start...thus, the 2/3 health rule above. You might get a heal...you probably won't.
-"Mezz status" Holding so and so, etc...
-"Conjunction coming, go all green...red...blue...turn the wheel...etc"...this will get better. If one pops up randomly, the Healer needs to call out when HE needs...if he is OK on power and everyone is OK on Morale, then he can call Yellow early in the fight, or Red to finish it off. These are hard to get a wheel on, so all one color for now is good. When we get better, he can call "Yellow and Green" this means the Melees hit yellow (assign them) and the others just hit green after two yellows show up. This will give us Two Pair.
-"Low Power" This is only from the healer, the CC, or the tank...everyone else, too bad. This means we need to try to get off a Blue AOE Conjunction (2 blues in the 1 and 2 slot, or in the 3, 4 slots, or all blue of course) or end the fight and wait.
-And finally "ADD!" If there is a mob that comes walking near while we are fighting, anyone can call Add. The first responder needs to be the CC. He needs to be in 3rd person, swinging the cam around the fight. I used to find the adds coming before anyone called it...every second helps. If the primary CC can't do anything, or is tied up with two other mobs, he needs to call out "Can't Mezz it!" This way, MT knows to chase it. If one of the backup CCs can take care of it…call it out as stated above so the MT knows to break off... “I got it!”

The MA and the MT need to talk to each other when one mob is about to die, and call out the next target together. The CC can also call targets, but only when it applies to when they are the same lvl and it doesn't help to get rid of one over the other, it is just going to be the one that will break next.

I'd also like to reference Beleg's thread he has reposted as well from Closed Beta regarding conjunctions, type, use, etc:
See here: Conjunction Junction

I know I may go into too much detail on some of this, and a lot of it is situational and “learned” from playing a class. I usually played the “Enchanter” CC type classes, so I always tried to keep control of a fight, and thus heavily researched these sort of group tactics to make life easy for everyone.

Once again, any comments, corrections, clarifications, questions, post them below.

Surlek
AKA

[Stray]

Good stuff!

[Gailiana]

Thank you from a total newb! I did not know any of this! I will keep this favorited for when I reach a decent level so I can review it. I'm reading the boards trying to get as much info as possible so I'm not totally clueless in game.

[Colfox]

Please, all, if nothing else, realize that fellowship tactics are not the same thing as 6 solo tactics happening at the same time. The difference between a successful fellowship and a wipe is the group tactics, and everyone adjusting their combat actions to fit into the group. There is no uber-combination of classes for this game, and there is no combination that will NOT work. Any combination of classes can work, and any combination can go down in flames. Work together, and do NOT use your normal solo tactics.

[jnn4v]

Excellent info and tips. Also, a few corrections:

1. Regarding the Minstrel's cc fear skill. It lasts for 15 seconds, and it does work on regular mobs, elites, alive, undead, etc.

2. Regarding the Minstrel's cc undead sleep skill. It lasts for 30 seconds, and it only works on undead. Also, it requires playing a song that's about 3-5 seconds long, so if the minstrel has aggro, he's not going to be able to complete it.

3. The most effective cc skill the Minstrel has is "distract" which doesn't come until the 30's. It doesn't put a mob to sleep, so there's no expiration timer on the skill. Instead, it reduces that mob's awareness range by 75%. As long as nobody goes too close, the mob will never activate.

I hope that helps.

[Surlek2112]

1. Regarding the Minstrel's cc fear skill. It lasts for 15 seconds, and it does work on regular mobs, elites, alive, undead, etc.

Updated...but the Fear only works on Evil creatures of any type.

[jnn4v]

Updated...but the Fear only works on Evil creatures of any type.

Yes, you're right. I can't fear allies or friendly bunnies, deer, etc.

[Colfox]

I think his point is that a lot of things you fight aren't "evil"...like bears and such. They are just wild animals, with no good/bad alignment. The minstrel Fear won't work on them.

[jnn4v]

I think his point is that a lot of things you fight aren't "evil"...like bears and such. They are just wild animals, with no good/bad alignment. The minstrel Fear won't work on them.

I think my point was that it does work on them.

[Colfox]

Hmmm...alright, I can admit when I may be wrong. It's been a while since I played a Minstrel. I recalled that there were some creatures that the "fear" skill didn't work on...or maybe I'm thinking of another "make the creatures run away for a few seconds" skill. Or, it's possible something changed in a patch. *shrug*

I know there at least used to be a CC Minstrel skill that did not work on everything--only on "evil" things. I thought that was this skill, but maybe not, or maybe not anymore. Mea culpa.

[Surlek2112]

Can anyone verify that this Minstrel Fear ability, Cry of the Valor (or level equiv) has been changed? I do not play a minstrel.

In B1 and B2, it only worked on Evil Creatures, and this did not include your standard bear, wolf, boar, etc.

[koala]

Can anyone verify that this Minstrel Fear ability, Cry of the Valor (or level equiv) has been changed? I do not play a minstrel.

In B1 and B2, it only worked on Evil Creatures, and this did not include your standard bear, wolf, boar, etc.

I played a Minstrel to lvl 35 in closed beta and I could fear/scare off some animals, some humanoids, some dead, but not all of any of the categories. Boy was it hard to remember who and what I could and couldn't fear/scare. I really should make a list and if I do I'll post it, but please don't anyone hold their breath.

[koala]

Patience,

Thank you for the stickey, so this thread doesn't get lost.

[Vergere]

I can't tell you how much your posting has helped me understand combat strategy. I'm a first-time MM player, and have worked my elven LM up to level 15 on Silverload. I am using many of your suggestions, and am finding myself much more effective and helpful to my fellowship. Thank you for the time you invested in posting your strategies.

[Isaelee]

Very nice guide. Thanks for the help!

[haplo88]

I wish everyone I've grouped with in OB would have read this.

Especially the part about LOS. I had someone bitching up a storm because they died, when I am sorry I cannot heal you through a wall.

We were doing something way above our heads anyway (chap 11).

[mangamonster]

Wow! Awesome starter guide for partying tactics! I would love to see some info on burn parties as well

BTW, Conjunctions are BADDD ARRSE!!

[Lupini]

Thank you. This is a good primer. Long enough to give information, not so long as to overwhelm.

[Elrios]

Terrific guide! Good primer/refresher for the basic roles in a fellowship. The only point I would challenge is the statement that if a DPS pulls aggro off the MT it is likely the DPS's fault. This assumes that the MT is effective in their role and that the DPS is not. There are occasions where the MT isn't effective at maintaining aggro, in which case no matter how careful a DPS class is they can pull aggro.

[Whispen]

I have a 30 Minstrel on Arkenstone and the Cry of the Valar only works on Evil creatures.

There can be some confusion on what this does or does not work on as sometimes undead / corrupted versions of animals can be hit with it and others can't.

It works on wargs and wolves. It does not work on eagles or bears (for the most part). It works on orcs, goblins and bandits, etc.

The earlier comment on the Undead mezz is spot on. Long cast time and if you're actively getting pounded on you'll have a hard time landing it.

~Whispen~

[nrrrdlover]

I'm a super newb. These tactics seem useful though. I will try my best!

It all seems very rigid though. There is an implied sense that there is little room for error. Is this accurate?

Honestly, I'm not a very skilled gamer and this has kept me from most MMOs so far (I played EQ way back in the Kunark days and I play CoH now). I see a lot of jargon to keep track of and several pre-defined responses to everything.

Worst of all... I sense that there is no room for creativity.

At which point, during all this precise handling of combat encounters, are we supposed to be having fun?

[Surlek2112]

Worst of all... I sense that there is no room for creativity.

At which point, during all this precise handling of combat encounters, are we supposed to be having fun?

There is so much room for creativity, this is just a basic outline for a group to start with...assigning a role. 80% of pickup groups will follow these guidelines, or try to. These tactics make a mediocre group good and a good group excellent.

As far as the rigidness, there is none. There is room for error and change in all facets, a Captain can easily be the main healer in many cases. If you are pushing your group to its absolute maximum effectiveness, the margin for error gets smaller and smaller. Later levels and higher instances start getting more difficult and the ability to just "zerg" your way through gets less and less doable.

Trust me, once you finish a very difficult instance or encounter and you know deep down inside that if someone had made a mistake your whole group would have wiped you will have that exhilarating feeling of accomplishment, and have fun doing it the entire time. It's not work, it's not a job, it's just using your abilities in a group role to it's maximum effectiveness.

[Dratz]

That sounds like an extract directly from the forums of EQ1. It disturbs me that in 8 years MMO fantasy combat does not appear to have progressed an inch.

cheers
Dratz

[nrrrdlover]

There is so much room for creativity, this is just a basic outline for a group to start with...assigning a role. 80% of pickup groups will follow these guidelines, or try to. These tactics make a mediocre group good and a good group excellent.

As far as the rigidness, there is none. There is room for error and change in all facets, a Captain can easily be the main healer in many cases. If you are pushing your group to its absolute maximum effectiveness, the margin for error gets smaller and smaller. Later levels and higher instances start getting more difficult and the ability to just "zerg" your way through gets less and less doable.

Trust me, once you finish a very difficult instance or encounter and you know deep down inside that if someone had made a mistake your whole group would have wiped you will have that exhilarating feeling of accomplishment, and have fun doing it the entire time. It's not work, it's not a job, it's just using your abilities in a group role to it's maximum effectiveness.

Hmm.... ok I'll buy that. It just so happens that my chosen class is Captain

My main concern is that the learning curve for me is steeper than most and being the one guy that makes that fatal mistake in those situations certainly doesn't earn you many friends :P

I hope that other players at my level of skill can group together and still enjoy most of the game's content (albeit more slowly) without being quite so uber.

That's probably as much a confidence issue of my own as it is a symptom of competative gamer culture. I have yet to join a fellowship though (made level 7!). We'll see how it goes. thanks for the advice!