Annoyed by "I NEED MORE THREAT!"

[horus418]

So what yer sayin is yer really good :>

Anyway no. If the tank goes down in Bg its because a healer dies or is out of power completely. Wipe.

Funny, I haven't said a thing about myself...

Um... no. I just told you that we've recovered after a guard has been defeated... who cares why, my question is what you do after... and you just admitted that as a warden you do nothing. That's all I wanted to know, thanks.

Wow, you are full of hate, aren't you?
Your in here asking "how" and I give you a "how", so you attack it?

Hate? LMAO, that really is a good one. I don't "hate", any class in this game. As for your "how", it does not work in every situation, especially in BG... you should know this...

Maybe Turbine should just delete the warden class, then it wouldn't be an issue anymore? After all why does this game need 2 "main tanks"?

Here the truth comes out... You're the actual hater... lol, you fit the stereotype of yet another butt hurt guard with his panties in a bunch because... oh no!!! Turbine decided to add a second tank class. Lets kill off hunters and rks because we don't need options for DPS either... Too funny chum.

Maybe you should get off your "I'm a solo god, so when I group I should be even more leet" platform and learn how to play outside that solo mentality.

You, like the other guy are imagining things... those words and nothing like it ever came from my keyboard my desperate, little, angry friend.

Seems like there are a lot of wardens that do just fine, but you don't want to listen to them, because they must be wrong.

Heh, most of the other wardens that actually tank end game want much of the same thing... one tiny little buff. You know, the guys who actually do instead of just theorize.

Run along to your own forum my angry young fellow.

[shdowhunt60]

[QUOTE]
Wow, you are full of hate, aren't you?
Your in here asking "how" and I give you a "how", so you attack it?
[\QUOTE]
Welcome to my world.
[QUOTE]
Maybe Turbine should just delete the warden class, then it wouldn't be an issue anymore? After all why does this game need 2 "main tanks"?
[\QUOTE]
Why does it need two main DPS classes, or two main healers, or two Debuffs\CC. This one gone too far.

Maybe you should get off your "I'm a solo god, so when I group I should be even more leet" platform and learn how to play outside that solo mentality.

Again, too far. Though I have to agree that Horus needs to rethink his tactic.

Seems like there are a lot of wardens that do just fine, but you don't want to listen to them, because they must be wrong.

This is where we get to two sides of this argument, there is the side the believes that they are interchangable and no real change is needed, and there is those who got burned by some ignorant raid leader and think the only solution is to rip a skill off of another class.

Edite: I forgot that the commands were case-sensitive.

[ofMiceandHobbits]

Hours, I don't have a bone to pick with ya. It was sarcasm :>

Anyway no I've never come across a situation where I've died as main tank and the group was in a reasonable position to recover.

[AS1476]

Ah, yes, I hate wardens. Your sarcasm detector must be broke.

I prefer running with wardens, they bring a lot to the group.
Wardens that I run with bring more to a group then just a tank.
But you and a few others don't seem to want to see what kind of benefit you can bring, beyond a tank.

A kinmate of mine is a warden, and we have great times grouping. I love the fact that if we both do a 6 or 3 man run, I can go dps and he can tank, or vice versa. Makes for a good time, heck sometimes neither of us really tanks, and its all dps.

Guards main strength lies in our ability to make the hardest hitting bosses easier, and almost all of our skills are reactive, some for the oh **** moments.

Wardens are proactive, and they have the tools to be successful.

Don't try to tank a fight like a guard, when your on a warden.
Both classes tank, but its completely from opposite ends.

You should try to have 2 wardens build aggro on 1 boss, and see how it goes, especially if one dies.

On one of our durchest fights aggro was all messed up, and the warden in the group pretty much had to tank him. I believe it was brought up for me to hit engage to take the boss back, but the warden didn't have the threat debuff, so I said just tank him. He did, I switched to dps for the rest of that fight, and it was a win.
I have no ego that I need to feed to feel good on a fight like that. A win is a win. My kin has a hard time just getting 12 for a raid, so we all play to what we have, class wise, and to each fight its completely different. We just go with what the fight throws at us, play to our strengths and hang on.
I love to trait full dps on DN runs, but if we dont have 2 interrupters for the BO, I have to tank him, and a warden would be main corruption remover and dps, while I and a champ do interrupts. I think only once did we have 2 wardens and a champ and a guard, that I could dps and a warden could tank, the fight went fine if I recall correctly. Wish we had a couple of more end game wardens to tank, so I could DPS from time to time, because I know they can tank the hardest fights.

My biggest issue with a warden getting an engage type skill is a class unbalancing. You may not think it would happen, but it could, and after the few months of post MoM champs taking on everything and being successful, I would not want to see one class sidelined ever again.

Wardens have the tools to tank everything, but trying to tank like a guard I say is the wrong way.

So if people give ideas on how to work around something, don't discount it because they have a guard in their sig. 2 wardens both building aggro on durchest, or whatever, may just be the thing your looking for.

[horus418]

Ah, yes, I hate wardens. Your sarcasm detector must be broke.

Well when you say that Turbine should delete the warden... it was kind of hard to take that as sarcasm. Judging by what you say below, I have you pegged wrong as I know nothing your post history really. Please read further to see that you've really got me pegged wrong...

I prefer running with wardens, they bring a lot to the group.
Wardens that I run with bring more to a group then just a tank.
But you and a few others don't seem to want to see what kind of benefit you can bring, beyond a tank.

And I prefer to run with guards and not other wardens. I feel that both classes compliment each other much better than running raids g/g or w/w.

Don't lump me in with the "few others", though. I've been here all along saying wardens filled roles other than tanking just fine. I'm more than happy to go along for something on my warden and not tank.

A kinmate of mine is a warden, and we have great times grouping. I love the fact that if we both do a 6 or 3 man run, I can go dps and he can tank, or vice versa. Makes for a good time, heck sometimes neither of us really tanks, and its all dps.

Amen... This is pretty much the same on how I view both of our classes. I'm simply about having fun.

Guards main strength lies in our ability to make the hardest hitting bosses easier, and almost all of our skills are reactive, some for the oh **** moments.

Wardens are proactive, and they have the tools to be successful.

Don't try to tank a fight like a guard, when your on a warden.
Both classes tank, but its completely from opposite ends.

Agree again. If I'm in a raid with a guard I don't have any qualms about him tanking the big bosses and me the adds. If no guard is available, a warden can tank a hard hitter like Durchest successfully as well using our unique skill set. So, we agree there as well.

You should try to have 2 wardens build aggro on 1 boss, and see how it goes, especially if one dies.

I only had to do this once... and quite frankly it went fine, and neither warden died. For Durchest it was business as usual as far as one tank on adds, one tank on Durchest. But I know if I did go down while tanking D, it most likely would have been a group wipe. My only point is, G/W and G/G groups can still recover in the event of a defeat/rez situation. What you suggested as a work around for the W/W group would not have worked in that situation because of the rest of the group make up left us with no one else to tank the adds. This was a (mostly), alt run...

On one of our durchest fights aggro was all messed up, and the warden in the group pretty much had to tank him. I believe it was brought up for me to hit engage to take the boss back, but the warden didn't have the threat debuff, so I said just tank him. He did, I switched to dps for the rest of that fight, and it was a win.

Well, kudos to you then man, and I mean that. Just about every other guard I know would have taken D back because of ego. If only some others could just let go...

My biggest issue with a warden getting an engage type skill is a class unbalancing. You may not think it would happen, but it could, and after the few months of post MoM champs taking on everything and being successful, I would not want to see one class sidelined ever again.

I can understand your point of view I just don't agree that it would unbalance the classes, nor would I ever want a guard to be sidelined, I know what that feels like... I don't want pledge or more force taunts or anything like that, I just want to be able to get back to being able to do my main role of tanking should I fall in combat. I don't have to be able to do that as well as a guard, but I should be able to do that at least as well as a champ who's secondary role is tanking.

Wardens have the tools to tank everything, but trying to tank like a guard I say is the wrong way.

So if people give ideas on how to work around something, don't discount it because they have a guard in their sig. 2 wardens both building aggro on durchest, or whatever, may just be the thing your looking for.

I just don't believe that wanting to get aggro back after death in a more timely manner is wanting to tank like a guard. Don't you think that a warden should be able to get aggro back as well as a champ is a fair thing though? After all champs are a DPS class first and foremost.

FWIW, what I said in reference to your first post had nothing to do with you having a guard in your sig, honestly.

I never even wanted this sort of buff (or any other buff really other than changing the power return gambit a tad), until recently. I only want some sort of after defeat option because certain... people have been saying non-stop that wardens shouldn't/can't tank certain bosses for reasons A,B,C, and D. Reason D being a warden's tanking ability after being defeated. Reasons A,B and C were just flat out BS...

I hope that is clear... I definitely don't want to take anything away from guards... I want us both there fighting along side each other.

[DackRover]

How about we just do away with engage so both of the games MTs have to jump through the same hoops?

Why don't we do away with all classes...have just one button each on a 5s cd that is called "win" and we all just spam it constantly until isht dies?

This discussion is totally fail, to still be going around and around for weeks now, and the hyperbole and angst is increasing and pretty disgusting, tbh...this coming from one who recently "engaged" the topic as well, pun intended.

I think there is too much intensity of feeling making its way into this issue, making it likely for misunderstandings and high potentials for statements like the above to be received as direct provocation and attack.

Taking a step back can only improve people's perspective and abilities to pick and choose battles, especially on a topic so well explored already, and regardless of "where" anyone comes out on the issue of threat recovery on death, etc.

We are all better than this, including and especially myself, relfecting on the last thread where I played a central role.

[horus418]

Why don't we do away with all classes...have just one button each on a 5s cd that is called "win" and we all just spam it constantly until isht dies?

I said that as a short and easy way to say this... now that I've found the quote.

If not being able to perform the class's primary (and essentially only) role after defeat is a wonderful balance feature, I vote we extend it to the other 8 classes. Give every class a debuff on rez that lasts until out of combat:

Hunter: -100% ranged damage
Champion, Burglar: -100% melee damage (and no HiPS for sneaky Burgs!)
RK: -100% outgoing healing, -100% tactical damage
Captain, Minstrel: -100% outgoing healing
Lore-master: Debuffs and Share the Power disabled
Guardian: -100% perceived threat

I'm sure none of the other classes would complain about that...

He said it much better, though I don't agree with the "only", role part...

[AS1476]

all sorts of stuff.

I think many people have seen enough nerfs/changes to classes from Turbine, we have all scratched our heads from time to time with things that Turbine had nerfed/changed, due to a "vocal minority".

After guards in MoM beta told the devs guard threat gen was broke, it took months to get us back to "normal", and that whole time Champs ruled the roost. I have to argue my side to keep that in play.
I hated the fact that proof was shown as best we could to the dev, (who will remain nameless, but disliked by me anyway) that our threat gen wasn't right.
He didn't agree, and it took a vocal majority to really get it looked at. Turbine had the data, champs were king. And our threat gen was not correct. Sadly the fix for that was an incoming healing nerf for champs, along with bumping our threat gen up.

Balance is a crazy thing that sometimes it takes only an ounce to make something fall over, even though there is tons of weight on each side.

Hopefully someday Graalx2 and whomever will find a way to get a "recover aggro" for wardens, and it will keep the classes balanced, but if they rush out a "recover aggro" skill without the proper testing and forethought, it could be MoM all over again.

I'm sure the devs know of this, they do read the forums. It has to make them pull their hair out at times, wanting to buff a class, but the "ol' nasty balance must be maintained" hits them right smack in the head.

Until then, think outside the box, seems to me that wardens are made that way.

Peace and happy tanking.

And go watch Team America, from the south park guys. "I'M A GUARD!"

[head0nfire]

I agree with you that more threat is not needed, but also consider this. Let's say that I'm main healing for a 6-man boss fight. The more threat I generate with each PB (let's pretend that there is a legacy for PB) the less I have to use it and the more time I can spend keeping myself alive. So it does help regardless, but like you said is unecessary and definitely not a top priority

[bob97]

back to the OP and some of the original posts, i totally agree with the OP.
on threat:
-we have more threat skills than guards
-we have conviction which is like the OP said, 5x agro...
-we dont need engage, we have agro leeches, and with all the heals we rarely die....
-if the MT dies, recovering is usually hard anyway, and its no cakewalk for guards either. you will most likely get a ****** cappy rez, so you have to get back to full health, which is far easier for wardens. the healers have to focus on healing the champ or whoever now has agro.

on power:
-WE HAVE ONE OF THE BEST POWER RECOVERY SKILLS IN THE GAME.
-GUARDS CAN BURN POWER IN OP, BUT ALL WE GET IS A 2M CD SKILL THAT COSTS MORALE, AND A 7M CD ONE THAT REQUIRES US TO BE FIGHTING MULTIPLE MOBS.
-IF IM NOT MISTAKEN MINNIES DONT EVEN HAVE A POWER RECOVERY SKILL.
-L2P, USE YOUR SKILLS BEFORE YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT NOT HAVING THEM.

[Kaluu]

.....

My biggest issue with a warden getting an engage type skill is a class unbalancing. You may not think it would happen, but it could, and after the few months of post MoM champs taking on everything and being successful, I would not want to see one class sidelined ever again.

Wardens have the tools to tank everything, but trying to tank like a guard I say is the wrong way.

So if people give ideas on how to work around something, don't discount it because they have a guard in their sig. 2 wardens both building aggro on durchest, or whatever, may just be the thing your looking for.

+ rep /signed

There are some pretty silly examples in this thread of why a warden needs engage or other improvments to skills.


Lol, if there is no Lm for power, no other tank, no champs to ebb ire, an immediate need to grab agro now because of a boss or adds who will start one shotting people due to no apparent cc and/or debuffs so that means no burglars or hunters too I guess, no other heavy armour, no rezs, and on and on, then, because of that a warden needs an engage skill because If he died when he didn't really need to? Oh, and because he died we could also really use something like a last stand skill, but maybe just instead of because you know, we don't want to be too op.

I would love to see this group make up and the boss they went in on! BG with a Warden and Guard on hard mode is easy mode lol. The only legitimate problem I have ever seen in these forumns with a pair like this, is who gets to tank who and when because everyone wants a shot at the bosses, or the adds, and the other one usually gets those.

The issue of whether or not wardens can main tank anything in the game with our skills was settled long ago. The answer is yes, although some players cannot play the advanced class as well as they should to be as successful as they want. There are some isolated pockets of resistance here and there among some kins or in the minds of some players. The process of convincing them is not by showing off a new easy mode skill.

[horus418]

How about you actually read the type of skill many of us are suggesting instead of jumping to conclusions and being insulting to people? The type of skill I'm suggesting basically has no use for normal tanking, really only being useful for after defeat.

FWIW, the group you seem to be taking cheap shots at cleared the first 2 sets of bosses without either tank dieing... I was giving a "what if", situation.

My kin clears all of BG every week without champs... this means nothing to a guard if he goes down, but does have a large impact on wardens if they do.

G/G is easy mode.
G/W is easy mode.
W/W is not so easy mode.

[Laurjo]

Constant Harassment. 500 power. 30s duration.

Fi Fi Fi

Usable only within 1m of being revived.
All of the threat generated by any damage or healing against the target will also be counted as threat for the Warden.

"Seeing the Warden get back up and into the fight infuriates his enemies, and makes the enemy blame all ills befalling him on the Warden".

(This may be too much. Maybe 50% of the threat is transferred?)

I don't know if there's something like this already for another class, but it seemed a decently warden-ish way to fix the problem, but not be unbalancing.

[Kaluu]

How about you actually read the type of skill many of us are suggesting instead of jumping to conclusions and being insulting to people? The type of skill I'm suggesting basically has no use for normal tanking, really only being useful for after defeat.

I make a distinction between useful and needed. We do not need a skill just because under a few specific situations a skill would make a difference. Almost all deaths definately do not require that a warden have immediate agro upon rez. Those that do are few and far between. Fellowships have to cope. Off the topic, I find scrambling adds fun to the game and I don't want easy buttons.

FWIW, the group you seem to be taking cheap shots at cleared the first 2 sets of bosses without either tank dieing... I was giving a "what if", situation.

If the "what if situation" was the ability to tank BG at all, I would buy that. At one time the concensus among many was that wardens could not, but that has been shown to be false. Very talented wardens led the way and showed that could be done and that wardens really are a "main" tank class. They have my thanks and if you were one of them, my hat is off to you as well.

My kin clears all of BG every week without champs... this means nothing to a guard if he goes down, but does have a large impact on wardens if they do.

This does not convince me on many fronts a skill is needed.

G/G is easy mode.
G/W is easy mode.
W/W is not so easy mode.

Again, "W/W is not so easy mode" does not convince me a skill is needed. Neither do runs with no champs, or lms, or captains, or burglars. I thiink all classes have a place and if a group starts to exclude classes from their make up, there should be difficult obstacles that arise.

If the class is too hard and too many are having trouble utilizting the class, I see that as another issue. That is not the conversation we are having here though.

[DackRover]

I am pleased to hear some more voices emerging from the "wardens can doooo eeet" camp.

[Morcanden]

Constant Harassment. 500 power. 30s duration.

Fi Fi Fi

Usable only within 1m of being revived.
All of the threat generated by any damage or healing against the target will also be counted as threat for the Warden.

"Seeing the Warden get back up and into the fight infuriates his enemies, and makes the enemy blame all ills befalling him on the Warden".

(This may be too much. Maybe 50% of the threat is transferred?)

I don't know if there's something like this already for another class, but it seemed a decently warden-ish way to fix the problem, but not be unbalancing.

Haha, that'd be siiiiiick... but it'll never happen. Besides, I'd still rather have a "don't die" over a "won't stay dead" skill.

[Banaticus]

In beta, if I let a captain beat on something for a full minute before I come in, there's no way I can get aggro back. In fact, even when the captain died the mob still remained aggroed to me. I must have let off 20 precise blows in a row and umpteen convictions, dance of war, a single war-cry just for the heck of it.

This is not true for champions or guardians.

Wardens need more threat.

[bob97]

if you are letting the group hit the mob before you attack it for a full minute...

[Banaticus]

Just saying -- these situations come up. Champions and Guardians can handle them. We can't.

[shdowhunt60]

Champs really can't recover well. Rising Ire is nice but it can only do so much. Champs actually have very weak agro gen, they can pull agro easily, but holding it is a mess.

[horus418]

Champs really can't recover well. Rising Ire is nice but it can only do so much. Champs actually have very weak agro gen, they can pull agro easily, but holding it is a mess.

This is just simply untrue. Champs have a stance that gives 60% threat generation, but that really isn't needed because massive amounts of damage and Rising Ire every 10 seconds will get aggro back much faster than a warden, every time.

Holding aggro on a champ is also very easy...

[bob97]

either way, referring to my above post... the guy will never catch the bike. if hes a guard or a champ he may, but he will just fall right off again. if you let a bike go off a ramp and the go after it on foot... then like i said, you're doing it wrong.

[horus418]

Obviously, you don't have a single clue as to the point Banaticus is trying to make. Your comprehension... you're doing it wrong...

[bob97]

his point is that if you let another player get a head start we have no chance. where in a group situation would you let the group get a 1 minute headstart?

[horus418]

his point is that if you let another player get a head start we have no chance. where in a group situation would you let the group get a 1 minute headstart?

Sort of like what happens in a boss fight if the tank goes down... Obviously nobody is giving anybody else a one minute head start.