Enough with the Keep Ninjas, and a few other rants at freeps

[Obsidian-moth]

I think it kinda overall has to do with our confidence level. I definately dont' feel confident that if I get knocked down by a warg on.. any char that I'll win. That's a me issue at the moment.

Not alot of leader's are willing to 'lead' they just open up a raid and direct people where to go, and when to release. We lost alot of strength on freepside but it wasn't all gear, mitigations or lower ranked creeps as our opponents that made us feel the loss.

I'll be honest, I think most people are scared. Scared to wipe, scared to get mapped in on, scared to stay at any place longer than a second before getting wiped, ect, ect. We don't pay for our failure with money or loss of xp or even ixp, but I think waay back in ol' Moria freep ego's soared and now they hate admitting that they aren't all that and a bag of chips. And to them, wiping, shows it.

[PF-Grumpy]

Sorry, I don't mean to be condescending, I just think you're attacking the wrong place. I'm not infallible, the only thing I can do is try to present a rational argument.

An accomplishment in LOTRO's PvMP environment is VERY subjective because the winning conditions are not clearly defined. Is the point of the Ettenmoors to hold as much of your color as possible as long as you can? If so, holding the keep for 8 seconds may be your best accomplishment of the night (and your enemy's worst defeat).

LOTRO doesn't really tell us one way or the other.

PVP is unique to the moors, and time spent running the map looking for a keep to take unabated diminishes the chance for meaningful encounters.

I will just agree with Aedon's statement below, that the constant looking for a keep to take diminishes PvP. I don't think a "winning condition" exists, but a goal to engage other player controlled characters does. That is the goal of the ettenmoors. To find the other side and try to kill them. I don't think a keep ninjs needs to be the only answer we have. I am also not saying I won't ever ninja a keep again... but these days it is all we do.

Am I going back and contradicting a lot of things I have argued for in the past? Yes I am.

I'll be honest, I think most people are scared.

I agree that a lot of freeps act scared. I am not talking about avoiding fights you cannot win or map-ins, I run from what I see as losing engagements all the time. I mean standing around waiting for someone to hold their hand and walk them out of GV.

[Baslin]

I'm specifically talking about people who ENJOY ruining other people's ability to play the game and have fun doing so.

I can completely understand how people can ruin an experience for someone else. What I do not understand is what mechanics allow a player to do so outside of messaging (./ignore) or graphically (corpse-jumps/emotes/following/etc.).

I'll be honest, I think most people are scared. Scared to wipe, scared to get mapped in on, scared to stay at any place longer than a second before getting wiped, ect, ect. We don't pay for our failure with money or loss of xp or even ixp, but I think waay back in ol' Moria freep ego's soared and now they hate admitting that they aren't all that and a bag of chips. And to them, wiping, shows it.

Unfortunately, there is nothing that can change this other than a large boost in one side's power by Turbine. I solo on both sides of the war and do not feel scared being out there.

The Ettenmoors is a PvP zone without a consequence for defeat other than a run back from the rez circle, a +1 to your death count, and perhaps a kick in the ego. What else can be added/removed to trivialize death more?

[Overtone]

I'll be honest, I think most people are scared. Scared to wipe, scared to get mapped in on, scared to stay at any place longer than a second before getting wiped, ect, ect. We don't pay for our failure with money or loss of xp or even ixp, but I think waay back in ol' Moria freep ego's soared and now they hate admitting that they aren't all that and a bag of chips. And to them, wiping, shows it.

To wipe or not to wipe? That is the question...

[insanityspetals]

I'm defending the position that not all people are the problem. But to blindly think that there aren't people in the game making it unfun for others is just kidding yourself.

If you're able to always have fun out there, then count yourself as lucky. Be glad you haven't been targeted. But understand there are a lot of good players who aren't playing anymore because their gameplay was ruined by the few.

I acknowledge the fact there are people who actually do try and reduce others fun, I am merely saying its not the majority of players but a select few who act in such a way.
Also, I don't always have fun - I get frustrated and upset like anyone else, but in those cases I just log off and try again. I just keep a positive attitude and remember that other times I have a lot of fun
I am very sorry for those great players - and I know some - who have been targeted and have had their fun ruined by others.

[Anarionadama]

Can you choose to have fun while someone sticks a fork in your eye?

Can you?

Remarkably, yes. But Biopsychology has nothing to do with the current topic.

I'm glad you apparently haven't felt what it can be like out there for people who are harrassed and griefed and abused by other players. But there ARE people who have been affected by that stuff, and to deny their existance is really blind.

I don't deny their existence, but I don't claim to know of, been involved with, or have had them come to me about harassing, griefing, or abuse.

Because the topic at hand is the point that freepside is not ALL working together.

One cannot suggest ignoring a portion of the population AND working with the entire population at the same time. The two run counter to each other.

I don't claim to work with the entire population. In fact, I usually only work with people who want to cooperate with me, which is less than you think because no, I don't go to Keeps, the beaten path or farmfests.

There are people in this game who get enjoyment from harrassing and griefing other people. They continue to suggest that it's "their right" to play that way and that if people don't like it they can do something else, as if THEIR right to play the game is the only thing that matters and other people's investments in the gameplay are meaningless. That's not competative gameplay. That's not poor social skills. That's actually very close to how one would describe sociopathic behaviour.

But my point stands.

Ok, this paragraph didn't translate from this one:
"No one would join a pick up game of basketball, or monopoly or anything else and if the game wasn't fun due to the actions of others just say, oh well, guess you shouldn't play then. That's an anti-social, and borderline sociopathic, attitude." I read that as the Antisocial is the not-playing-the-game part. Sorry.

[Thieron]

I agree. But with one caveat.

Freep intel is FAR less effective than creep.

We just can't descend on a point of contact anywhere NEAR as fast as creeps in general can.

Even Ost gives creeps a faster run back than coming from GV. Even if the rez is blue. The creep maps, at least one, and likely 2, and maybe maybe 3 are closer than riding from GV.

Knowing is the point of intel other mechanics don't mean anything past that. It is used all the time like this: X is taking LC then you know where at least a group is. If Y is taking Lugz again you know where a bigger group is. If Z is camping a certain spot using nothing but bait and tackle methods you know where to avoid. Get rid of all the, "Hey guys I am online and I am starved for attention and look I have big boobs flatter me with your flirts" you might actually have something worth reading.

I agree that actions by freeps are limited in comparison to creeps based on intel. Swarming will continue to happen. If people don't have anywhere else on the map to fight they will go when it's called out. NOT EVERYONE does go, but an entire group of players are now stuck in that mindset.

Funny, a lot of creep players on these forums seem to think I don't respect them, or that I'm making sweeping generalizations against them, or that there's some lack of desire for them to have a good game play experience. That's not my opinion.

But it DOES bother me to no end when many of the big names out there just seem to LOVE talking about creep this and creep that. Funny. What I get accused of here is what I'm fighting against in game.

If people get a feeling from your posts and actions it is your responsibility as a writer not theirs as a reader. It's more than likely their predisposition that will affect their mind set. No matter what you say or how you change it they will never change unless the predisposition changes.

A lot of people think they know someone because of what they say on the boards and more than not it is misconstrued. You will find very few people know one another even if they play together a lot. People see you do something once, twice, or even ten times and all of a sudden that is who you become because they haven't seen different or refuse to see different.

I disagree.

I'm sick of entering raids only to see the list of names and have to drop so I don't have to listen to their ****. I'm sick of not entering raids because I don't know who they have in there. I'm sick of the people who complain about the actions of some then saying others are failing and being selfish if we don't HELP those same people.

So I'm wrong if I ninja, or don't communicate in ooc, because I won't group with or support hateful players.

Yet those people are wrong for their speech, their tactics, etc?

Am I supposed to join them and help them do the things that bother other people? Am I supposed to HELP them play in ways that aren't conducive to good game play? Or am I just wrong no matter what I do?

People are wrong no matter what they do. Like you said if you don't join you becoming an elitist ***. If you do join then you are just as much a part of many problems imo. If you don't join your comments here are taken as an insult vs an observation. Either get use to people not knowing you and assuming they do, or become silent and just play/not play the game for what it is.

I have only played 3 times in the past two weeks once on freepside twice on creepside.

Creepside OOC is filled with intel, but it is filled with more social blah than freepside has ever came close to. I dont give a <insert something> if so and so is afk. Is that so all the fan letters stop pouring in while you are away (not you Luc but I am not going to say names)? I also don't care how much anyone likes bacon and decided to fill empty chat because their mom's didnt hug them enough as a child and need the attention. The side comments are just as bad as they are in WoW only it wasn't always that way. It's sort of a weird transition.

When I was on freepside I got to read you (Luc) complaining about x creeps at x rank doing bs by the rez. The same comments you are currently against. So it's my observation that you get frustrated like everyone else and spoke out. Isn't everyone else entitled to the same venting?



The OP is filled with hypocrisy. Read his past comments vs his current and you find they are in quite opposite. So he either viewed the present situation and changed his position, or he is a hypocrite. The first statement goes against what he personally told me about being able to change a view so I am guessing it's the latter. I'm just bullying though because I agree with a lot of his post.

[Obsidian-moth]

I agree that a lot of freeps act scared. I am not talking about avoiding fights you cannot win or map-ins, I run from what I see as losing engagements all the time. I mean standing around waiting for someone to hold their hand and walk them out of GV.

- My comment about freeps being scared was directed to the reason for ninja's. Its an instant gratification with little risk (most of the time), but yea... I've said many times I wish freeps had a sort of 'test' or a quest to do before stepping out into the moors to learn what this zone is about and how to be somewhat viable in it.

[PF-Grumpy]

The OP is filled with hypocrisy. Read his past comments vs his current and you find they are in quite opposite. So he either viewed the present situation and changed his position, or he is a hypocrite. The first statement goes against what he personally told me about being able to change a view so I am guessing it's the latter. I'm just bullying though because I agree with a lot of his post.

I see what you did there, you missed that I said this:

Am I going back and contradicting a lot of things I have argued for in the past? Yes I am.

Anyways I agreed with some of the other stuff you said. At least when I thought you were being a hypocrite I was polite enough to send you a PM over it. But you bit my head off for that so... oh nvm.

[romoen]

Right. And you happen to know everyone in the game and how they feel. But I'm the one having delusions of grandeur. LOL (nice Star Wars reference btw)

Huh? I never said I knew everyone in the game. Me telling you that you don't know everything doesn't translate into me saying that I do.

I dunno about the "enough with the ninjas" thing. It happens both sides more than it doesn't - and a lot of times it makes sense when it's done, imo. Sometimes it's just not needed of course.

Personally my rant is enough with pulling the Lugz CG with spider babies - without even entering the keep. It's lameeeee

I don't understand how it's not lame to kill a Tyrant without killing any NPCS while nobody is around to defend the Keep, but it's lame to pull a CG and kill him without killing other NPCs while people are around to defend against it?

Oh, and it's not hatchlings doing it. It's flies.

Yeah, in the end It's a "Who gives a Frak what other people think? I'm having fun."

I say Fun is a Win. When isn't fun a Win? When it's not Fun for someone else?

Freeps can have fun with their friends in any zone, but you cannot PvP anywhere else. Consiering you and yours alone leads to an unhealthy community, in my experience.

So what's the point of the Ettenmoors anyway?

That is your relevant question/rant. Your rant comes from not having clearly defined winning conditions. It's a game problem, not a player problem.

Sorry, I don't mean to be condescending, I just think you're attacking the wrong place. I'm not infallible, the only thing I can do is try to present a rational argument.

An accomplishment in LOTRO's PvMP environment is VERY subjective because the winning conditions are not clearly defined. Is the point of the Ettenmoors to hold as much of your color as possible as long as you can? If so, holding the keep for 8 seconds may be your best accomplishment of the night (and your enemy's worst defeat).

LOTRO doesn't really tell us one way or the other.

PvP is the CLEAR point of the Ettenmoors.

All those other "win" factors in place? Those are just various objectives to work on/accomplish while maintaining the entire purpose of the zone; again PvP.

Why take a keep at all? There are really only two reasons that have to do with the purpose of the zone (pvp) and that's 1) because you are conquering the enemy and 2) to give yourselves a foothold to fight out of.

The current theme of a lot of Freep leadership seems to be an avoidance of the purpose of the zone to instead acquire those win factors you're describing. What is the purpose of winning those objectives if you completely avoid the purpose of the zone to do it?

Lastly, while Turbine is definitely responsible for our environment, we as players can't do anything about that on the field. You need to play for the field you're given, not for the debate over the field you'd rather have.

I understand. But you need to recognize that a LOT of freeps, good people, cannot be held to blame when they don't want to have anything to do with people who "communicate" like that, nor do they want to support those people in ANY way. So yeah. When certain raids are running around out there, they're not getting my support or my reports.

And that sucks. Yes it does. And if I'm a bad player because of it then so be it.

I realize you've got a history of being attacked by people, but I'm not quite sure why you're jumping that gun here seeing as you're defending against things I never even touched on let alone said.

I said that people should consider communicating (actual communication) not for themselves or their group but for everyone else. I don't know what that has to do with what you're talking about.

[Thieron]

I see what you did there, you missed that I said this:



Anyways I agreed with some of the other stuff you said. At least when I thought you were being a hypocrite I was polite enough to send you a PM over it. But you bit my head off for that so... oh nvm.

I'm a bully remember. I didn't forget. I did read it, but I was using a little irony to show a point.

I do agree with you though so take that for what it's worth.

[Anarionadama]

Freeps can have fun with their friends in any zone, but you cannot PvP anywhere else. Consiering you and yours alone leads to an unhealthy community, in my experience.

I work with anyone who asks, but that is a rarity. In my experience there is GS and the Main raid and then there is my group of 3. maybe 4. Whether to aid or to avoid requires discernment in each and every fight that erupts.

[mikejeff]

Enough with the ninjas

Can I appeal to our freep raid leaders to stop the keep ninjas? I am in favor of them sometimes, but do we have to do them all the time? Last night it was proposed in one group that I was in and I opposed for the fact that the creeps had more than enough people on to just take it right back.

I just don't see the point anymore. If we don't have the numbers to take a keep straight up, there is no way we can hold it from multiple organized creep groups so you are just giving them 2000 freep DP and all the infamy they get for drinking your blood on the way up.

I used to think a keep ninja had it's time and place but now, it just doesn't do any good. The end result is scared little freeps with bows standing on the lawn and hungry-for-action creeps ready to melt the place down within an hour.

Do we need three raids who cannot communicate at all?

How about this, how about not having -3- open raids who are not talking to one another and then a small group in OOC yelling for not talking to one another. The creeps are all talking to each other, all the time. This is why they can spot a butterfly feeling happy at river outpost from TR lawn, because they have someone everywhere.

People in the raids are saying they can only support communicating with the raid. This is BS. What you mean to say is "You are not in our raid, you wouldn't zerg with us so eff you".

I also hear things like "How many, we aren't taking our whole raid there for 5 creeps". Do you not understand that people are just giving you data? People rarely say "please come help us". They probably just got rolled somewhere and are getting the word out.

When you communicate in OOC, you are just getting the word out to the whole zone. When you refuse to do it (and some of you outright refuse), you are punishing all freeps in the zone. The whole zone, includes you because an open, clear and relevant OOC could provide a lot of data that an outnumbered force needs.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

All in all, I'm really starting to agree with Flagell about the worst generation of Freeps ever. I would agree totally were I not a freep atm, but there is so little that makes Freepside fun anymore. I'd like to see ppl like Vin and Angel leading raids out there but I understand why small groups of friends is more fun. It's just too bad other people don't get to experience what "fun" PvP is, even when you are getting stomped.

I agree with this almost completely. No communication and such is why I run almost completely solo now. Ninjas can be fun, but there's many cases when they're just stupid.

[Thane9]

I agree that actions by freeps are limited in comparison to creeps based on intel. Swarming will continue to happen. If people don't have anywhere else on the map to fight they will go when it's called out. NOT EVERYONE does go, but an entire group of players are now stuck in that mindset..

And this is where I take issue with Turbine's lack of providing multiple incentives, so the "zerg" isn't the most beneficial tactic in all cases.

If people get a feeling from your posts and actions it is your responsibility as a writer not theirs as a reader. It's more than likely their predisposition that will affect their mind set. No matter what you say or how you change it they will never change unless the predisposition changes.

A lot of people think they know someone because of what they say on the boards and more than not it is misconstrued. You will find very few people know one another even if they play together a lot. People see you do something once, twice, or even ten times and all of a sudden that is who you become because they haven't seen different or refuse to see different..

If I write, "I like bananas." And someone immediately afterwards says: "I can't believe you hate bananas!!! You suck for hating bananas. I'm going to tell all the people I know you don't like bananas and make sure they never get near you and your banana hating ways." Then I completely disagree with your assertion that the full responsibility is on the writer.

Then if I write 5 pages on why I like bananas, and the response is:

You sicken me with your hatred for bananas, I can't believe you keep coming on here talking about how you hate them so.

Then I have NO way of believing that a> I'm being read at all, b> that this person isn't actively seeking to argue, c> that this person isn't motivated by some other desire.

People are wrong no matter what they do. Like you said if you don't join you becoming an elitist ***. If you do join then you are just as much a part of many problems imo. If you don't join your comments here are taken as an insult vs an observation. Either get use to people not knowing you and assuming they do, or become silent and just play/not play the game for what it is..

I agree this is the delimma.

When I was on freepside I got to read you (Luc) complaining about x creeps at x rank doing bs by the rez. The same comments you are currently against. So it's my observation that you get frustrated like everyone else and spoke out. Isn't everyone else entitled to the same venting? .

There's venting and sharing of information., I.e. telling what certain groups are doing in certain areas of the map to hopefully make them less successful and then there's negative namecalling and harrassment.

IMHO there's a VERY clear and substantial difference.

If I call out a group of 5 bugs/reavers who are ganking on some position on the map it's likely out of frustration yes, with the secondary benefit that a> others will be able to avoid them, or b> a group bigger than me solo will go fight them.

If someone calls out stupid, PoS, scared little crybabies are doing what they ALWAYS do and if we don't ALL get together and go wipe them then we suck and we're failing freepside <heh heh heh> (you know that voice), then a> it's hateful and mean and breeds disrespect for the other side, and b> serves as no warning and offers no tactical information.

And in voice, with certain players it's often nothing short of #2. Which is why I refuse to join those groups.

Which is why I often find myself in small groups, or not grouped at all.

Which is in turn being criticized as not "playing right" becuase then we freeps suck at working together and we're doing it wrong and deserve to lose.

/shrug. I think my position has merit. The people who agree will agree, the people who don'tare beyond convincing...

Hope to see people out there this week trying their best.

[Danaca]

I actually lean towards agreeing with Luc on all this. Bananas just aren't that great.

[Sssnapdragon]

The only thing that makes the moors not fun is these forums. I didn't know I wasn't having a good time until just now.

[romoen]

The only thing that makes the moors not fun is these forums. I didn't know I wasn't having a good time until just now.

Did someone say you're not having fun?

[insanityspetals]

The only thing that makes the moors not fun is these forums. I didn't know I wasn't having a good time until just now.

I actually lean towards agreeing with Luc on all this. Bananas just aren't that great.

Lmao <3 *hugs both of you!*

[Sssnapdragon]

Did someone say you're not having fun?

I think the OP did? I'm so confused. And I don't have a unicorn so I am just feeling really bad about everything right now.

[romoen]

I think the OP did? I'm so confused. And I don't have a unicorn so I am just feeling really bad about everything right now.

I'm not sure where it went so off track, but nobody has said (at least not that I interpreted) others aren't having fun or that they shouldn't.

[Grape]

Creeps are OP.

Why else do they have an AOE rez?. If creeps are now buffed to 1:1, this isn't fair.

[oninoakuma]

I agree with this almost completely. No communication and such is why I run almost completely solo now. Ninjas can be fun, but there's many cases when they're just stupid.

Cynth,
The other day, I forgot what day it was. Wanna say it was Thursday, creeps had the pop buff popping on and off nearly all day. I was leading the Agony/Pwny raid and we were rolling through groups.

And, people just kept calling out ninja attempts. Everyone was just in OOC saying what the f**k? Why do they have to ninja even when we are sitting on the pop buff, these are the times it gets frustrating, and when you are getting bowled over by the freepnami

[Baslin]

I actually lean towards agreeing with Luc on all this. Bananas just aren't that great.

I agree. I hate bananas. I blame this awful medication I had to take for ear infections when I was younger.

The only thing that makes the moors not fun is these forums. I didn't know I wasn't having a good time until just now.

/ignore the forums, then!

I do not think anyone asserted that anyone else wasn't having fun.

[Thieron]

And this is where I take issue with Turbine's lack of providing multiple incentives, so the "zerg" isn't the most beneficial tactic in all cases.

If I write, "I like bananas." And someone immediately afterwards says: "I can't believe you hate bananas!!! You suck for hating bananas. I'm going to tell all the people I know you don't like bananas and make sure they never get near you and your banana hating ways." Then I completely disagree with your assertion that the full responsibility is on the writer.

Then if I write 5 pages on why I like bananas, and the response is:

You sicken me with your hatred for bananas, I can't believe you keep coming on here talking about how you hate them so.

Then I have NO way of believing that a> I'm being read at all, b> that this person isn't actively seeking to argue, c> that this person isn't motivated by some other desire.

What I am trying to say is that it is still the writers responsibility to convey the message. If you do everything in your power to convey your thought, and it still doesnt reach the audience as it was intended there is nothing you can do.

People that look at everything with side agendas will never change.

i.e. If I like person X and you think person X is some sort of demon spawn and you read my posts with that idea infront of my actual message chances are you will not get the message even if my message was: water is wet in a liquid form. That is what over 90% of the back and forth on the boards/ingame are about . There is almost a logic level of null. *I'm not saying that is what you do just what is happening with a lot of people.*

There's venting and sharing of information., I.e. telling what certain groups are doing in certain areas of the map to hopefully make them less successful and then there's negative namecalling and harrassment.

IMHO there's a VERY clear and substantial difference.

You are absolutely correct there is a substantial difference but your comment was along the lines of (paraphrase): I can't believe all these pathetic high ranked creeps and the only thing they can do is camp the rez.

That looks like bitching in plain English to me. Then it was followed by back and forth with someone about raid leeching so I turned off OOC. I will give you credit in my years of playing with or around you your public bitching is low in the game for your usual level of frustration, but you aren't above it. I don't think there are many people that are.

[oninoakuma]

Creeps are OP.

Why else do they have an AOE rez?. If creeps are now buffed to 1:1, this isn't fair.

<Kick's dirt>

<Takes ball and hops on exploit rock>

Whatever. The other day we were trying to kill someone and I think it was Pouncival commented on the three full lines of buffs he had, oh yea, it's even.