R9 Uruk heal - Is this balanced? Discuss

[Overtone]

Play for fun, ignore the points.

Good times will be had by all.

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[PF-Grumpy]

This is why people would leave vent after the first 30 minutes of our arguments. >.<

They lasted 30 minutes?

[Klapton]

I read these forums a lot, don't post a ton, and though I don't always agree with what Luc has to say, I have NEVER gotten this impression from him...

Read some more. He cries incessantly about how he wants to be Mr. Solo guy but can't because other people have friends and choose to play with them. He expects people to let him have his little 1v1 fights without interfering. Just search his posts for the word "zerg." He cries about it constantly.

[Klapton]

I will say this however. I think it's arguable that ranking to R9 is SIMILAR to getting a freep to a competative state.

One thing that is completely different is that creeps get their rank by killing players with human intelligence. Freeps get their levels and gear fighting against mobs that are pretty much 100% predictable. Of course, there are plenty of PLAYERS that are lacking in said human intelligence and are also pretty much 100% predictable. But that's their fault, innit?

[Meijha]

There. I wanted to make sure I contributed to the overall spirit of the thread.

PS- Today is FRIDAY which of course means... DRUNKRAIDSATURDAY inc!

[Sujae]

Come on Luc, you are pulling stats from players off another server now??

What for??

Even you with all your fun posts about stats know that they are meaningless to our server. Killdeath?? He did put in alot of hours to get his ranks. So what? Do we actually need to have Rank 15 players with 7years playtime to make you feel better about YOUR time spent? I just dont see the point here? Actually I dont think I even want to know what your point is.

[romoen]

They lasted 30 minutes?

I'm counting the time spent switching channels/logging back in to see if we were done yet.

[Thane9]

If this tactic is so transparent, then why is this a problem? Unless someone is stupid enough to fall for it? If so, they deserve it. If they don't suck, they won't fall for it twice.

These are the sorts of things that make the game interesting. YOUR version of PvP, of course, would be little instanced duels with no surprizes. No... it's even worse. You expect people to behave as if they were instanced duels when it was clearly the intent of the game designers that it should NOT be.

Define "falling for it"

Am I supposed to run away from solo 'appearing' creeps? Then what would I fight? Or lets say I DO turn away...what's to prevent that group from killing me anyway...only the hopes that my horsespeed is greater than their sprint.

Ok, let me backtrack a bit. First off, you are wrong. Your assessment of me is wrong. So lets start there.

Note: I'll use "warg" as a general term throughout this post...this isn't specifically about wargs, or even creepside, but they're the easiest to picture in some of the examples I'm using. I believe these behaviours to be demonstratable across many classes and both sides.

Anyhow....on with it...

THE SINGLE #1 reason I played in the moors when I could've played MANY other PvP games, or rolled alts with my friends after maxing Luc at 50 was OPEN PvMP. #2 was closely related...it was the complete lack of "mirrored" classes and variance of how the sides "work". I was instantly hooked on the VAST variety of fights that could and did occur.

I'm a HUGE advocate for OPEN PvMP and the randomness and chaos that brings.

Just so we're clear.

I do support/believe in/encourage/desire an ettenmoors where literally EVERY player on the map is trying always to kill the other side.

That means that if I am solo and I engage a creep and 50 happen to be around the corner I expect to explode. No harm, no foul.

I do NOT support fightclubbing, arranged fights, the idea of instanced fighting ANY of that.

-----

Now, having said that. I also don't support/encourage/believe in the OPPOSITE side of that coin.

Which is to purposefully and with intent put yourself in situations to reap non-competative fights just for the sake of points.

-----

I believe just like standing around watching someone else fight ruins the "open" nature of the game SO DOES purposefully ganking.

One is "false" open PvMP in favour of a "good/fair/whatever" fight.
The other is "false" open PvMP in favour of "points through overwhelming no-chance" fights.

I have ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY NO problem with dying in the moors. I have nearly 7000 deaths to confirm that. If I had a problem with dying, I think I'd have quit a long time ago.

What I DO have a problem with is when players position themselves to avoid any fights of a challenging nature.

When I'm pounced by a warg during/after a fight with another creep and it's just because the warg happened along that's open PvMP.

When I'm pounced by a warg during/after a fight because the warg was purposefully looking for an opportunity for Infamy at no risk...that's metagaming as a stealth class to avoid an actual fight.

Any warg wants to fight me? I'm out there most nights.

Any warg just want infamy for tagging me? I'd suggest you roll an alt and farm him. There's no more challenge to ganking me than that.

And yet, almost universally people condemn and have a problem with farming alts (which btw I do to, and I believe it should be an account banning offense) but farming via ganking no-lose situations is somehow just "part of the game."

---

Having said all this, in an attempt to clarify my position, one that's undoubtedly futile, I do want to recognize some truths.

I'm not dumb. I know I'm not changing how anyone plays. In fact I'm likely encouraging people to do this to me just because they know it bothers me.

I still contend that I have the right to not enjoy fights that are pretty much 100% guarenteed to go one way, and look unfavourably at players who tend to take actions to achieve those so called "fights".

I also contend I have the right to be frustrated and upset when it's crystal clear I'm specifically being targeted/tracked/and hunted just for these types of "kills."

But I know I KNOW, that people will play the way people play. And there's nothing I can do to stop them. The best thing I can do is keep trying.

So yeah, when I see a solo creep...I'm going to attack, 99.99% of the time. (Currently some reavers when I'm completely cooldown blown I'll avoid, or at least try to delay the fight until I have something back up...CB being fundamental to really having an even somewhat enjoyable fight)

And if you think about it, I have no choice. I can't run from what "may be". I have to engage in PvMP in a PvMP zone and hope that my opponent wants a decent fight and not just 100 more infamy.

Oh and one last parting thought to creeps who think...man I can't fight Luc he'll kill me every time.

Creeps have some inherant advantages. If you lose to me...and you're not COMPLETELY green (both in rank and in skill) I'd suggest using those advantages as soon as possible. The liklihood of an even closer fight the second time is VERY high, and the liklihood of a win for you is also significantly higher.

Creeps in general are much closer to 100% after a fight, win or lose. Whereas a lot of freep classes are closer to 70-80% effectiveness.

In my case...if you make me blow CB and one of my big 3...horn/champ heal/man heal...I'm likely in BAD shape for round 2. REAL bad.

Just a free tip to those looking for more than just a gank session for some infamy.

Lastly...kinda to sum up.

I'm not some dictator of the moors. I understand I'm just a player no more or less important than ANY other. I've never held that delusion...although I can cite certain players who HAVE asserted similar beliefs that they are "better" and "more important" than others out there as a result of their renown/infamy totals. To which I have to laugh.

Anyhow...

Despite that awareness...or maybe due to it...I still believe I have the genuine right to have preferences, wishes, desires for gameplay in the moors.

And that is what I'm sharing when I post.

Contrary to what a lot of people seem to think of me, I am NOT asserting that everyone HAS to change.

I am NOT asserting that I'm somehow better than anyone, or that my opinion is the only opinion to have.

I DO however believe in my opinions. I believe in their validity. I believe in their overall thought process. And I believe, honestly, that the VAST majority of them would ultimately favour better gameplay for most, if not all.

I also concede that there are players who are not interested in "game play".

I know there are players who take pleasure just from making others unhappy.

I know there are players who just want points and don't see the game as a social competition between peers.

I get that. Honestly I do.

I just desire for those people to be the minority and hopefully have their means of achieving those goals hindered in the hopes that people looking for a fun competative game experience can be encouraged.

/shrug I doubt I'll change any minds about me with this post. But I felt I should at least try to clarify.

Because I read words like you posted about me and they just couldn't be more off target.

[PF-Grumpy]

I'm counting the time spent switching channels/logging back in to see if we were done yet.

Oh so to last longer they had to switch postions a lot?



Didnt *did it for gutlard* out!

Most recent novel

Luc, that is so much text I cannot beleive it. Why you think someone shoudl sit though all of that is why you consistently fail to communicate your points to the forum. I am sure you will blame the reader for not getting it, but you need to work on your communication skills, or you will continue to be exhausted by the people who "can't get" what you are saynig.

[Thane9]

Come on Luc, you are pulling stats from players off another server now??

What for??

Even you with all your fun posts about stats know that they are meaningless to our server. Killdeath?? He did put in alot of hours to get his ranks. So what? Do we actually need to have Rank 15 players with 7years playtime to make you feel better about YOUR time spent? I just dont see the point here? Actually I dont think I even want to know what your point is.

My point was just to demonstrate the time spent to aquire R9. We're talking about a skill here, and it's power. And the last time I checked those things were server independant.

I'm not sure why that's so heinous.

This isn't about me, or my playstyle, or any of that you seem to wish to say. It's just a simple set of data to demonstrate that R9 can be ground out by BAs pretty fast. I'd suggest, very fast, given the nature of their power at R9 and the topic at hand, e.g., the Uruk heal.

What exactly is so wrong about gathering data about ranking when we're talking about ranking, and specifically how that time "investment" matches up with freepside time spent?

[Klapton]

Define "falling for it"

Am I supposed to run away from solo 'appearing' creeps? Then what would I fight? Or lets say I DO turn away...what's to prevent that group from killing me anyway...only the hopes that my horsespeed is greater than their sprint.

blah blah blah... more crying, etc. (My god, you expect people to READ all that?!?!?)

"No Mr. Bond, I expect you to die!"

Do whatever you want. For the love of god please stop crying when other people do what THEY want... especially if that includes PWNING your carebear behind... WITH all their friends, if that's how it goes down.

Kill or be killed. Kill the enemy. Kill them by any and all means possible. Do so as ruthlessly and efficiently as possible.

...

Or whine on the forums every time someone else does these things better than you.

[Thane9]

Read some more. He cries incessantly about how he wants to be Mr. Solo guy but can't because other people have friends and choose to play with them. He expects people to let him have his little 1v1 fights without interfering. Just search his posts for the word "zerg." He cries about it constantly.

Either you're really not reading any of my posts, or your trolling.

I'll assume the former.

I'm not "crying" about being left alone during 1v1s. Please read my longer post.

One thing that is completely different is that creeps get their rank by killing players with human intelligence. Freeps get their levels and gear fighting against mobs that are pretty much 100% predictable. Of course, there are plenty of PLAYERS that are lacking in said human intelligence and are also pretty much 100% predictable. But that's their fault, innit?

Sure...it's a different action that is taken to achieve the power.

But the time spent is the measure we're using...not the action you take during the time spent. That's all just subjective.

Freeps run instances too...and creeps don't. I don't see how these differences are relavent?

Of COURSE if creeps could just kill npcs for 100 infamy each they'd be R9 in a day or two. Heck, then it'd be less of a grind to R9 than finishing out your deeds are freepside. Far less...heh.

---

I'd also like to throw one more thing in on this "difference" of play idea.

Creeps are PvMP'ing WHILE getting stronger.
Freeps HAVE to PvE to be able to PvMP.

For someone who wants to PvMP....there's a pretty massive difference here. I think others have commented on this fact in the past as well. It can be a drag to have to do "stuff" PvE side just to be able to go out there and PvMP.

[Thane9]

"No Mr. Bond, I expect you to die!"

Do whatever you want. For the love of god please stop crying when other people do what THEY want... especially if that includes PWNING your carebear behind... WITH all their friends, if that's how it goes down.

Kill or be killed. Kill the enemy. Kill them by any and all means possible. Do so as ruthlessly and efficiently as possible.

...

Or whine on the forums every time someone else does these things better than you.

Be glad I don't play that way. I could target any creep I wanted with enough support for long enough and consitantly enough that they'd never play again if I did. In fact if everyone played the way you're suggesting there would be one huge pile of freeps who sit in front of their oneshots at GV and one huge pile of creeps who sit in front of their oneshots and NO ONE would ever even leave those spots.

Oh and my assumption about you trolling...yeah I was apparently wrong to give you the benefit of the doubt.

[PF-Grumpy]

My point was just to demonstrate the time spent to aquire R9. We're talking about a skill here, and it's power. And the last time I checked those things were server independant.

I'm not sure why that's so heinous.

This isn't about me, or my playstyle, or any of that you seem to wish to say. It's just a simple set of data to demonstrate that R9 can be ground out by BAs pretty fast. I'd suggest, very fast, given the nature of their power at R9 and the topic at hand, e.g., the Uruk heal.

What exactly is so wrong about gathering data about ranking when we're talking about ranking, and specifically how that time "investment" matches up with freepside time spent?

Because it is irrelevent, Luc. Completely and utterly irrelevant.


The issue is over the skill. One of the problems with the skill is not how quickly it can be attained. There are plenty of people (I recall specifically Corrakkas) that have pulled down 10k renown per day on freepside as well. So this issue isn't with how "easy" the skill is to attain, the original question was over the imbalance it creates on the field.

[Anarionadama]

Statistics show (as annoying as he can be sometimes) that Luc is right 95% of the time.

No really! I began to take the time to read and check what he is saying. And Usually what he is saying is true. He is very good at proving what he says based on facts and statistics (Ophy is his only real comparative opposition in any argument). In the end what irritates people the most is that, from our own views, he might, possibly, probably, actually, sortakinda, perhaps be slightly, by chance, Right...about something.


Personally I believe if you don't want to hear something, then ignore the person. But that doesn't make them any more or less, right or wrong.

[Klapton]

Be glad I don't play that way. I could target any creep I wanted with enough support for long enough and consitantly enough that they'd never play again if I did. In fact if everyone played the way you're suggesting there would be one huge pile of freeps who sit in front of their oneshots at GV and one huge pile of creeps who sit in front of their oneshots and NO ONE would ever even leave those spots.

Oh and my assumption about you trolling...yeah I was apparently wrong to give you the benefit of the doubt.

You have absolutely no imagination whatsoever, and make no sense. You cannot kill the enemy without finding them and engaging them. Read this again please:

Kill or be killed. Kill the enemy. Kill them by any and all means possible. Do so as ruthlessly and efficiently as possible.

How can one achieve this by hugging their home gates? Seriously, how? So how would that be the end result of this playing philosophy?

To kill the enemy you must find them and engage them. (This is aggressive, NOT defensive.) To find them most effieciently, you would need to split up and search multiple locations. (This is the OPPOSITE of rolling in a zerg-ball).

So please, explain to me again how a philosophy of killing the enemy as ruthlessly and efficiently as possible leads to cowardly, defensive game play? What I have described is pure AGGRESSION.

I did NOT say "HIDE from the enemy as ruthlessly and efficiently as possible" did I? Or "RUN from the enemy..." I said KILL.

[PF-Grumpy]

Statistics show (as annoying as he can be sometimes) that Luc is right 95% of the time.

No really! I began to take the time to read and check what he is saying. And Usually what he is saying is true. He is very good at proving what he says based on facts and statistics (Ophy is his only real comparative opposition in any argument). In the end what irritates people the most is that, from our own views, he might, possibly, probably, actually, sortakinda, perhaps be slightly, by chance, Right...about something.


Personally I believe if you don't want to hear something, then ignore the person. But that doesn't make them any more or less, right or wrong.

That doesn't make the argument over the amount of time to acquire the skill any more relevant in this thread. And the amount of data and text Luc is pushing to make an irrelevant point is amazing.

He ~acts~ as if he just wants to make us see his way, rather than have a discussion. He may not intent that, but that is what he is doing.


Edit to add: Pushing data at people does not always, facilitate a debate or conversation. Typically it slows communication. There have been many studies on this who care about effective communication in both business and other fields. Here is a link to one of those arenas:

http://www.savicommunications.com/

[Sujae]

Luc, pull yourself away from Freepside, send Charrk a PM, let him know what time you can play a Creep and come have fun with us, I guarantee you will find Animals laugh very contageous and you will have a blast!

[Meijha]

Luc, pull yourself away from Freepside, send Charrk a PM, let him know what time you can play a Creep and come have fun with us, I guarantee you will find Animals laugh very contageous and you will have a blast!

I would LOVE to group with Luc for just 1 night. Srsly, if you decide to do this please send me a PM with day/time and I will do my best to be there. Not necessarily to run around killing things together, but just to chat.

Edit to add- I won't even play my spider....!

[Anarionadama]

That doesn't make the argument over the amount of time to acquire the skill any more relevant in this thread. And the amount of data and text Luc is pushing to make an irrelevant point is amazing.

He ~acts~ as if he just wants to make us see his way, rather than have a discussion. He may not intent that, but that is what he is doing.

I think that the amount of time it takes to acquire a skill has very much to do with how powerful it is on the field of play. What if this was a r5 skill? What if Creeps only had to grind for stones and could get it before they even ranked? Granted you can make the same argument about several other skills such as Charge.

[Sujae]

I would LOVE to group with Luc for just 1 night. Srsly, if you decide to do this please send me a PM with day/time and I will do my best to be there. Not necessarily to run around killing things together, but just to chat.

I'll bet he'd like to talk to you too Mangey!

[Anarionadama]

There have been many studies on this who care about effective communication in both business and other fields. Here is a link to one of those arenas:
http://www.savicommunications.com/

***? (nothing personal about you posting this, but the site itself i'm ***ing)

SAVI is not concerned with people’s motivations, intentions, personalities, or psychological diagnoses. It focuses not on what we mean to say, but on what we actually say — our communication behavior.

Now, I'm no genius, but Psychology is my thing. This, straight up is one of the dumbest oxymorons I have seen in a long time. You CANNOT ignore "people’s motivations, intentions, personalities, or psychological diagnoses" and "focus on our communication behavior"

I mean that's just... I'm speechless. I mean ***?!



Back on topic: Yes the skill needs an adjustment even at r9

[PF-Grumpy]

I think that the amount of time it takes to acquire a skill has very much to do with how powerful it is on the field of play. What if this was a r5 skill? What if Creeps only had to grind for stones and could get it before they even ranked? Granted you can make the same argument about several other skills such as Charge.

The reality is that it is not a rank 5 skill. So the analogy is not valid. It is a rank 9 skill. There are only 15 ranks in the game and rank 9 is considered one at the top.

Regardless of the fact that the game now allows all players to rank up that fast, the skill is still a top end skill for high ranked players.

We can debate all we want about how the skill works, who it should or should not effect, should the player be able to do it on the move. Those things are relevant to the skills "balance" on the field.

Soon with F2P players will be able to buy ranking perks (unless that was a rumor that wasn't true). That means players can rank ~even faster~. That wont change the skill or how it works.

[Baslin]

[quote=Anarionadama;4914057Now, I'm no genius, but Psychology is my thing. This, straight up is one of the dumbest oxymorons I have seen in a long time. You CANNOT ignore "people’s motivations, intentions, personalities, or psychological diagnoses" and "focus on our communication behavior"

I mean that's just... I'm speechless. I mean ***?!
[/quote]

I'm a psych guy, too, but you can totally attempt to boil communication down to just behaviors, actions, and ways of speaking. Check out some of Ekman's work.

OT: Most high rank skills need to be looked at, but not necessarily in a nerfing sense.

[Thane9]

So this issue isn't with how "easy" the skill is to attain, the original question was over the imbalance it creates on the field.

I disagree for the following reasons:

1> A R0 skill in the Ettenmoors has a VERY different available level of impact upon PvMP than a R9 skill.

2> EVERYTHING has (or should have) a "cost". Some of those costs are on the tooltip for the skill, i.e. power, cooldowns, etc. Some are gold costs, i.e. pots. And some, creepside, are Rank costs.

3> Those costs should roughly equate to some "benefit". Now benefits are possibly more complicated than the costs...in fact I'd suggest they're WAY more complicated than the costs. The costs are usually more measurable...whereas the benefits are more situational.

Without SOME guiding cost/benefit analysis of skills the whole game would be a mess.

Imagine Uruk heal being R0, but Pinshot is R9.
Imagine pots were free but on a 1hr cooldown.
Imagine Dev strike didn't require the target being under 50%.
Imagine stealth movement wasn't slower than regular movement but faster.

Minor shifts in what benefits come at what cost would change the entire dynamic of the moors.

And THIS is exactly why I believe, fundamantally so many of the aggrivations and complaints people have with the moors could be relatively easily fine tuned. It's all about just making the cost/benefit for various skills, actions, mechanics as balanced as possible.

Granted, there IS subjectivity. R9 Uruk heal anyone?

Granted, the benefit in ONE situation may be vastly greater or lesser in another situation. Ranged dps in a PvMP setting vs Melee.

Granted, OTHER mechanics/skills/actions can affect the cost/benefit of something seemingly unrelated.--look at maps for a perfect example of this.

But ultimately what CAN constrain this game, the PvMP aspect anyhow, is having dynamic and balanced cost/benefit ratios as often as possible.

This is fundamentally why I was/am opposed to the raid renown bonus.

Heck, it's the fundamental reason for MANY of my opinions about gameplay in the moors.