Lord of the ring Books are kinda boring.. sorry to say it.

[Nymphonic]

I love how he describes character's reactions by analogies. A good example is when Smaug woke up and found(I think it was a vase, my memory is spotty) and flew into a fury that rich people do when they find something that is missing that they never use. Those aren't the exact words but I don't have a copy of The Hobbit with me ATM.

[Linwen]

It depends on what you are looking for. For me, the most fascinating thing about LOTR (and Tolkien's Middle Earth-related work in general) is the creation of an entire world, with its wide-ranging myths, history, legends, customs and little details of everyday life. Even an as avowed history buff (and one-time would-be archaeologist), I know more about kingdoms and lands that never existed than about some very real countries, because he made it possible. All the details and descriptions that some find unnecessary or boring are what make this world come to life.

I get the same feeling of wonder and awe from reading Tolkien that I do from walking under the ruined arches of the Temple of Poseidon at Cape Sunion, or being dwarfed in the shadow of an Egyptian pyramid: that sense of time, of history, of legend. It makes little difference that one is imagined, and one is real.

[fack]

Oh, I had forgotten spoiler tags don't work here... well, keep in mind I am using events from the books and events described in "The History of Middle-Earth" to justifiy some of my opinions.


I'm a little late to the party, but...

HRM!!! I would say that Gimli & Legolas weren't very fleshed out in the books. Tolkien didn't stoop to short jokes for Gimli like PJ did in the movies nor was a lot of the more heroic stuff given credit to Legolas.

Gimli loved the sight of some cave in Helm's Deep. (My memory fails me to a degree, so bear with me if I got the wrong location.) Legolas loved the sight of Fangorn. There was almost no flashbacks explaining their respective pasts for why they wanted to join the Fellowship..... wait... there weren't any at all.

When approaching LOTR, you must first consider that it had been intended as a Hobbit sequel. That's what Tolkien was pressured to do by his publishers. He really wanted to publish Silmarillion. ("Silm" herein.) But Silm had no hobbits in it and was a creation story. The Hobbit had one brave hobbit in it plus..... 12 dwarves... thus making Bilbo into a male Snowhite or something....? UGH were there 12? Forgive me, I'm addle-minded.

In his sequel, the adopted son of Bilbo inherits The Ring. Providing more bang-for-your-buck, he is accompanied by 3 more hobbits!! Huzzah! In the original draft,


SPOILER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[spoilers]Aragorn was a hobbit named "Trotter" because he wore wooden clogs he couldn't remove. In several drafts, Tolkien repeated sequences from where they got stuck in the middle of the blizzard on top of the Misty Mountains. Boromir kept rescuing the hobbits from the snow, including Trotter. Tolkien would re-write the Council or Elrond, go to the blizzard section, rinse and repeat. Finally Aragorn is introduced, thus secretly realizing Tolkien's wishes to include some Numenorean content to the book. [/spoilers]

END SPOILER!!!!!!!!!

You merely need to read the "History of Middle-Earth" to see I'm right about that spoiled section I just tossed in.

But anyway, if you haven't read the books, I'll mark this section as a spoilers....

SPOILER!!!!!!!!!!

[spoiler]but you see having more hobbits along for the ride isn't productive. They are still short fellas with hairy, bare feet. Tolkien had killed off the other man in the Fellowship, Boromir, but he couldn't have safely killed any of the hobbits, so he made them suffer. Chiefly speaking comic relief characters Merry & Pippin became luggage. Frodo & Sam wandered off into a warzone in which they could not contribute. Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli stretched their muscles and fought in several battles without the assistance of kindly wizard Gandalf. [/spoiler]

END SPOILER!!!!

[Nymphonic]

Frodo & Sam wandered off into a warzone in which they could not contribute. [/spoiler]

I have to take exception to this. They were on a clandestine mission, which I may add, contributed to the cause just as much, if not more than Aragorn, and the dwarf and elf boy that bragged about their e-peen with orc kills.

Also, all stories and screen plays have revisions. Hell, with Return of the Jedi, the Battle of Endor was supposed to be with wookies, not ewoks. I forget the reason why though.

[tuor66]

HRM!!! I would say that Gimli & Legolas weren't very fleshed out in the books. Tolkien didn't stoop to short jokes for Gimli like PJ did in the movies nor was a lot of the more heroic stuff given credit to Legolas.

Gimli loved the sight of some cave in Helm's Deep. (My memory fails me to a degree, so bear with me if I got the wrong location.) Legolas loved the sight of Fangorn. There was almost no flashbacks explaining their respective pasts for why they wanted to join the Fellowship..... wait... there weren't any at all.

When approaching LOTR, you must first consider that it had been intended as a Hobbit sequel. That's what Tolkien was pressured to do by his publishers. He really wanted to publish Silmarillion. ("Silm" herein.) But Silm had no hobbits in it and was a creation story. The Hobbit had one brave hobbit in it plus..... 12 dwarves... thus making Bilbo into a male Snowhite or something....? UGH were there 12? Forgive me, I'm addle-minded.

In his sequel, the adopted son of Bilbo inherits The Ring. Providing more bang-for-your-buck, he is accompanied by 3 more hobbits!! Huzzah! In the original draft,


SPOILER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[spoilers]Aragorn was a hobbit named "Trotter" because he wore wooden clogs he couldn't remove. In several drafts, Tolkien repeated sequences from where they got stuck in the middle of the blizzard on top of the Misty Mountains. Boromir kept rescuing the hobbits from the snow, including Trotter. Tolkien would re-write the Council or Elrond, go to the blizzard section, rinse and repeat. Finally Aragorn is introduced, thus secretly realizing Tolkien's wishes to include some Numenorean content to the book. [/spoilers]

END SPOILER!!!!!!!!!

You merely need to read the "History of Middle-Earth" to see I'm right about that spoiled section I just tossed in.

But anyway, if you haven't read the books, I'll mark this section as a spoilers....

SPOILER!!!!!!!!!!

[spoiler]but you see having more hobbits along for the ride isn't productive. They are still short fellas with hairy, bare feet. Tolkien had killed off the other man in the Fellowship, Boromir, but he couldn't have safely killed any of the hobbits, so he made them suffer. Chiefly speaking comic relief characters Merry & Pippin became luggage. Frodo & Sam wandered off into a warzone in which they could not contribute. Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli stretched their muscles and fought in several battles without the assistance of kindly wizard Gandalf. [/spoiler]

END SPOILER!!!!

Tolkien would never stoop to short jokes or references to Dwarf tossing. It was beneath his dignity and that of the characters. If you've watched the commentaries on the films you'll see PJ referring to 'Legolas moments'. In my opinion these were shameless - gee look what we can do with CGI moments - that turned his character into a one-man army, which he never was. Although Tolkien wrote fantasy, he tried to root it in the familiarities of our own world. There are some larger than life characters, like any mythology, but there are also normal people there, little different from you and me.

We don't need strange flashbacks to explain why a Dwarf loves a glittering jeweled cavern. It's where they live and what they do. Legolas comes from the woodland realm in Mirkwood. Why would he not be in awe of a forest even older and more majestic than the one he grew up in ? We don't need a flashback to understand a woodland elf has an affinity with the forest.

Perhaps you skimmed through the Council of Elrond ? No shame - some people do because it's all dialog and no action. Here we discover that Legolas came because he was reporting Gollum's escape. He even reports the details, not much different from a flashback sequence. Gimli is there because the Dwarves are reporting that messengers of Sauron have been offering them friendship for information on Hobbits. Tolkien likely could have doubled the size of that chapter but you have to remember to keep the plot moving along or risk the reader yawning. Why did they join the Fellowship ? It's all there but you won't see it spelled out in a 'Please let me join because...' application.

I don't understand the relevance of the draft versions. Most of us are very aware that it was originally a sequel to The Hobbit, as his publishers were advising him to write. As he wrote it, it grew into something not originally intended, which is one reason why it took so long to write. Tolkien had to re-write large sections, especially in the first half, to reflect changes that were introduced in later chapters. None of this is surprising. I doubt very many books exist in a single version, never revised or corrected. LOTR is one of the few publications where we actually get to see the first drafts and glimpse some of the writing and editing process involved.

Merry and Pippen become far more than baggage or comic relief long before the end of the story. They take a journey from naivety and mature as they realize the importance of the War and the sacrifices people are making. This is all in preparation for their return to the Shire and leading the uprising against Sharkey and his minions. (Although they make a few rather important contributions to the War as well.) Frodo and Sam were not on an attack mission and never were. It was completely clandestine infiltration. Don't get noticed or caught although I would dispute your statement that they did not contribute to the battle. They ended the war. Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli fight without Gandalf, why is that a bad thing ? Gandlaf was either presemed dead or off doing what he needed to do. He was not the great leader of free peoples or some sort of general. Adding the extra Hobbits and the rest of the Fellowship allowed the story to go in multiple directions at once. I don't think that's a bad thing if it makes sense and in this case it does because Tolkien adds in additional lands and peoples to give the story reasons to diverge into multiple streams that weave back together. In addition he doesn't just introduce places and peoples with no explanation of their presence. He hints at enough history to give the reader reasons for the existence of Rohan and what their connection with Gondor is. He ties up the loose threads, one example - you can't introduce Saruman the traitor and not have him dealt with at some point. Tolkien was able to do this without diverting Sam and Frodo from their mission by diverting other characters into it. I get the impression you would have preferred a simpler plot with fewer characters, more action and less boring parts. I doubt the book would have sold as well or still be around. I'd rather the epic we have as opposed to a 'single volume book of the month' paperback that you would read once on a holiday and never again.

[fack]

Perhaps you skimmed through the Council of Elrond ? No shame - some people do because it's all dialog and no action. Here we discover that Legolas came because he was reporting Gollum's escape. He even reports the details, not much different from a flashback sequence. Gimli is there because the Dwarves are reporting that messengers of Sauron have been offering them friendship for information on Hobbits. Tolkien likely could have doubled the size of that chapter but you have to remember to keep the plot moving along or risk the reader yawning. Why did they join the Fellowship ? It's all there but you won't see it spelled out in a 'Please let me join because...' application.

I complained I was addle-minded, didn't I? I haven't recently read these books. Nor am I equipped to do so again I am afraid. I didn't skim through it in my original reading, but thanks for reminding me about their contributions to the Council.

I don't understand the relevance of the draft versions.

You don't? I'm just suggesting reading the drafts because it is rare for such things to be readily available to the general public.
I might not read them now because I'm... well... not well in the head... but anyone worth their salt in a literary sense who is capable of doing so should.

Frodo and Sam were not on an attack mission and never were. It was completely clandestine infiltration. Don't get noticed or caught although I would dispute your statement that they did not contribute to the battle. They ended the war.

Yes. I understand. The main point I was trying to make was why the publisher was wrong to stiffle Tolkien's creativity.

Adding the extra Hobbits and the rest of the Fellowship allowed the story to go in multiple directions at once. I don't think that's a bad thing if it makes sense and in this case it does because Tolkien adds in additional lands and peoples to give the story reasons to diverge into multiple streams that weave back together.

Certainly. I never complained about that. It was my intention to say I liked that kinda device. It is in several fantasy series I have read by Tad Williams... though poor Tad's "Memory, Sorrow, & Thorn" will not be as reverently remembered a century from now as LOTR will be.

[gritintheeye]

my main question with the book is not knowing what Gandalf's plan was after the misty mountains. Was he planning on headin to lothlorien and then calling up the eagles to drop off frodo at mount doom?

[Isilmacil]

No one could say for sure. But we'd have to consider several things. If Gandalf didn't fight the Balrog and die, he might not have become Gandalf the White. Therefore he might not have had the strength later on to help turn the tide. There might not have been as much indecision in which way to go after Lorien. In which case most of the Fellowship might still have head to either Mordor or Minas Tirith, instead of say 6 of the members helping to save Rohan, etc. Lots of different outcomes, left solely to the imagination

[gritintheeye]

No one could say for sure. But we'd have to consider several things. If Gandalf didn't fight the Balrog and die, he might not have become Gandalf the White. Therefore he might not have had the strength later on to help turn the tide. There might not have been as much indecision in which way to go after Lorien. In which case most of the Fellowship might still have head to either Mordor or Minas Tirith, instead of say 6 of the members helping to save Rohan, etc. Lots of different outcomes, left solely to the imagination

thats true, who knows what would have happened if he hadnt fallen with the balrog.

he might have had some kind of genius plan for getting them into mordor, since, i have a feeling going through the emin muil and then cirith ungol would not have been his first choice. not to mention the first thought that crossed my mind when they were rescued at the end was why didnt the eagles just fly them over the mountain and drop the ring in Im assuming there was a good reason

I was just re-reading the book over the last few days for the first time in years and i realised how much i wanted to smack those hobbits in rivendell for not taking a more active interest in their journey, relying too much on gandalf (and aragorn's) guidance. I also realise now, 10 years older, that it was a completely insane plan relying on frodo being able to throw the ring away at the end. he could barely stand to chuck it in a regular fire near the beginning, what made them think there was any chance of him destroying it at the end?. Just goes to show how dire things were and how desperate they all were!

[tuor66]

From what I've read of the History series, I don't think Tolkien even knew for sure where the story was going until it got there. The final versions turned out so different from some of his drafts and outlines.

[Guner08]

Surely you read the first 15 pages, of the first book and said: "oh, this is so F·$% boring, I prefer to watch TV", but you're loosing all the fantastic world that JRRT creates in his books.

Or maybe you shall try again in a few years, thats what happened to me. I tried again with the first book and i became a crazy fan. I cant wait to read Silmarillion.

Greetings From Argentina

[Nymphonic]

Surely you read the first 15 pages, of the first book and said: "oh, this is so F·$% boring, I prefer to watch TV", but you're loosing all the fantastic world that JRRT creates in his books.

Or maybe you shall try again in a few years, thats what happened to me. I tried again with the first book and i became a crazy fan. I cant wait to read Silmarillion.

Greetings From Argentina

This is exactly what happened to me. I could not get the hang of it, waited a couple of years and I was hooked!

[fack]

why didnt the eagles just fly them over the mountain and drop the ring in Im assuming there was a good reason

Flying nazgul??? Perhaps the witch-king wasn't the only one with a steed that could fly?

[danmax67]

When I first read the books, back in High School, I found them a bit boring, but I enjoyed them overall. At that time I was looking for an action-packed version of Dungeons and Dragons or something. As time has gone on and I've re-read them many times (generally once every year or two), I come to appreciate the amazing writing, descriptive storytelling, compelling characters and total immersion into a beautifully rendered world. It's kind of like when you're a child, you think McDonald's is the height of cuisine, but as you get older you learn to appreciate a fine restaurant.

[Nymphonic]

I was reading The Fellowship today and started thinking of this thread when Bilbo disappeared and all 144 Hobbits were silent. I loved how Tolkien named every family that was there when they started talking at once. In that one sentence he personalized that entire crowd instead of "everyone started talking at once". I love how he built up to that moment with the descriptions of how the party was prepared for. It made me feel like I was really there. Some people just don't have patience, they want some kind of fast food version to hurry up and eat.

And also, I loved the part where Gandalf told Bilbo that he would see "Gandalf the Grey uncloaked". It was pretty sure a "Oh S&#T" moment.

No, the more I think of it, the more I'm convinced that Tolkien was not just some stuffy professor, he was also an outstanding writer.

[SuaronTehMighty]

I read LotR some 15 years ago and there are definitely some boring passages that I had to force myself through like the whole Tom Bombadil part that annoyed me to no end. I'm also not a fan of the hobbits, so always found myself rooting for their adversaries - Gollum for one. It does grow on you though. By the end when the elves and Bilbo leave ME I felt genuinely sad that an age is coming to an end.

I enjoyed Silmarilion a lot more overall. No hobbits for one and you get the whole picture of how the world came to be and its history. Maybe try reading that first if you cannot into LotR.