Wardens are NOT fine as is.

[Jeger_Wulf]

That is the dilemma - for Shield traiting to be useful you have to stack at least two, and preferably three, HoTs, including Conviction. But Shield traiting puts you down 20-25% in threat from the start, making it more necessary to spam PB's and giving you less opportunity to actually use healing/defensive gambits.

Unfortunately, I am having to agree with you.

The player I am WANTS to trait shield. How can you not want to trait shield as a tank? Just the idea of traiting shield makes me feel warm and fuzzy. :P

However, the most HoTs I ever have up is two (counting Conviction.) I am stubbornly holding on to my shield traits, but I am afraid that it is just that: stubborness.

[Smoeki]

While I would like to spend time writing a post about what I agree with and don't agree with, I have to wait till i get home from work. Here is a simple fact to throw fuel onto the fire.

The idea that Warden are suppose to have a higher BPE seems to be a miss conception. If this was the case why do Guardians have a skill that lets them shoot past the Cap? ie the Block or Parry Stance.

[Sneezer]

If the fight requires frequent corruption removal (e.g. Durchest) or interrupts (e.g. Blind One), it becomes even harder to maintain defenses, HoTs, and aggro at the same time.

Sheesh.. learn to use your masteries and juggle them with gambit builders. Know when to use masteries, know when to use gambit builders. With your masteries up at the right time, it shouldn't be a problem to get off your threat generation and/or hots.

Agro? Few PBs should do the trick.
Healing? Wait until you need to interrupt or remove corruption, then right after use masteries to stack on a couple of HoTS
Defenses? Well, your B/P/E is almost capped with buff anyways, there's not point in really using things like Shield Mastery... maybe dance of war to get that stubborn ole evade capped. If you don't like the long animation hit recovery (please correct me if they've fixed/changed this. been leveling a new warden and haven't tried it for a while).

Secondly, timing. Most of these mobs that do big induction or stack corruption do them on a timer. When you feel that timer coming up, just make sure you have your corruption removal or interrupt cued up (via builders). Right after that your fair game to use whatever you want with masteries.

Personally, I've never had a problem with interrupts or corruption removal. I actually miss more clobbers on my champ due to, oops I just hit raging blades *panick* need fervour pip now!

[Grampsaz]

While I would like to spend time writing a post about what I agree with and don't agree with, I have to wait till i get home from work. Here is a simple fact to throw fuel onto the fire.

The idea that Warden are suppose to have a higher BPE seems to be a miss conception. If this was the case why do Guardians have a skill that lets them shoot past the Cap? ie the Block or Parry Stance.

Its not an idea. Its one of the core design goals when the class was created. Thats right from the mouth of the dev that created the class.

Guards have a skill that allows them to shoot past the cap on one. But should they be able to shoot well over the cap on two of them at the same time?

[LagunaD]

The idea that Warden are suppose to have a higher BPE seems to be a miss conception. If this was the case why do Guardians have a skill that lets them shoot past the Cap? ie the Block or Parry Stance.

I think everybody agrees that's the way it is. And you don't even mention Pledge, which is far worse. The question is whether that's how things should be.

My impression: Guardians existed before there was a cap, and Pledge has always been one of their key ez-buttons. If Pledge were subject to the cap, it would invalidate the skill entirely. The same reason may hold for the stances - they existed before the cap. In general, I don't think any of the avoidance skills that existed before Moria (e.g. Touch and Go, Moving Target, Eldar's Grace) were made subject to the cap. Only buffs from stats were.

On the other hand, Wardens were designed at the same time the cap was being added. It seems to me it would have been wiser to make our defensive gambits %-based, so they too would have avoided the cap, especially since our Block and Evade are nearly always capped with self-buffs which devalues those gambits.

I was in Moria beta for the last three months, and there were a lot of very big last-minute changes. In particular, Guardians were massively buffed about a month before release, in an attempt to address the problems with the new avoidance caps, the massive hunter/champ DPS increases from SoA and the resulting difficulties they had with threat. There was outright revolt among the Guardian community in beta, which eventually led to the primary Guardian Dev (who apparently stopped working on the game shortly afterward) blowing up on the beta forums.

While all of the concerns about Wardens we have rehashed here for years were also being pointed out at the time, there was no comparable "Warden Community" in Moria beta to raise a similar stink. Wardens got a lot of tweaks (and Gramps was the most vocal tester on the Warden beta forums...) during the time I was in beta, but nothing like the massive buffs dumped on Guardians at the last minute.

Then, when Champ and Hunter damage were heavily scaled back a book later, the Guardian buffs were left in place. At the same time, the EoB legacy which had been part of the basis for balancing the Warden was heavily nerfed.

It is sort of surprising that the class has changed so little since then. The other new class (RK) has seen a lot more refinement in the two years since (admittedly not all to the liking of the players).

Considering that the LM has long been (in my opinion) one of, if not THE, strongest class in the game, and still got a boatload of love, perhaps we have some cause for optimism.

[zangger]

Gramps is one of those people that once they have something in their head you cannot change their mind even with OVERWHELMING evidence against them.

So why are complaining wardens are bad tanks? I have both at 65 and IMO wardens are better tanks. But whats a "tank"? The guy who holds aggro, right? No the guy who holds aggro AND stays alive while doing it, not who does more damage or who soloes better.

Now ask a guard and a warden, whose more survivable, after all thats half of tanking. If their half brained they'll say that wardens are. As for who generates more threat, the warden is the best ST tank, sorry but you out tank SS hunters and I'd like to see guards do that. And wardens have pretty exceptional AoE tanking without having to trait for it.

But you know, everybody has their own opinion, and each class isn't designed to be exactly the same nor does each person play their class the same effectively as eachother.

[Smoeki]

Its not an idea. Its one of the core design goals when the class was created. Thats right from the mouth of the dev that created the class.

Guards have a skill that allows them to shoot past the cap on one. But should they be able to shoot well over the cap on two of them at the same time?

Perhaps that is they way the Dev "wanted" it to be but the fact the skill inherently gives the the Guardian a Higher BPE than the warden negates all the wants, suppose to's, and should be's. I'm just stating the simple fact of the way it is and has been for over 2 years. Again this is ONLY if the Guardian is in a group and fully buffed.

I also think the Self heals on the warden far surpass any damage taken more so the self heals effect not only common damage but also non-common, Tactical skills which can't be BPE'd and wound/poison/fear resists which can't be BPE'd. Once you throw in Common damage negation Gear/Shields and Heal Proc Gear it makes even less of a difference.

[LagunaD]

Now ask a guard and a warden, whose more survivable, after all thats half of tanking. If their half brained they'll say that wardens are.

And if they're full-brained, they'll say Guardians, presumably...

Tanking means you are in a group. Being in a group means you have a dedicated healer, and you have to generate threat while surviving. Solo, yes, Wardens are more survivable because a) they can heal themselves more, and b) they don't have to generate threat at the same time.

In a group, the situation is much different. A Guardian pushes one button every 20 seconds to max out their normal defense, and can then focus on threat generation. If they get in trouble, they have multiple skills to buy time for the healer to do something about it, and even a skill that resets those skills.

A Warden has to constantly choose between threat generation and survivability. A high threat moves mean you aren't healing yourself. Healing moves mean you aren't generating as much threat. If the group is light on DPS, the Warden has time to do a lot of heals and defenses. If they are well-geared and know how to get the most damage from their toons, though, it is a different story.

The last time I did SG, when I pulled the first boss, I started with about eight PBs in a row. I figured aggro should be under control, so I built a Shield Mastery - and lost aggro to the Champ while I was watching the animation. I asked afterward if he had used a +threat skill, and he said no - he was just using (I think) Remorseless. It is not an uncommon occurrence, either, especially when Shield traited.

When I occasionally run PuGs for fun, with players who less geared and less experienced, it is trivial to hold aggro by comparison. PB, PB, Conviction, and I can start rotating HoTs, DoW and WoS at a leisurely pace.

The point being that you can't compare survivability without a healer when threat is no issue to survivability in a group going all out. The more we have to worry about threat, the less survivable we are.

As for who generates more threat, the warden is the best ST tank, sorry but you out tank SS hunters and I'd like to see guards do that. And wardens have pretty exceptional AoE tanking without having to trait for it.

I agree on the AoE tanking, but the only way you are going to out-tank a SS hunter who is any good is by spamming PB. And then the shield is about the only survival advantage you have over the hunter (who is doing a lot more damage) because you can't rotate HoTs at the same time and hold aggro. Depending on the length of the fight, a Guardian may have trouble too, but he has traited Protection to reduce the Hunter's threat, multiple insta-taunts and insta-copy if he gets behind, and he will sacrifice nothing in terms of survivability by going all-out on his threat skills.

[cwswim03]

LOL @ anyone who believes a warden is more survivable than a Guardian. That is just pure humor.

^ Remember again, this is in the context of end game content only.

[Grampsaz]

While all of the concerns about Wardens we have rehashed here for years were also being pointed out at the time, there was no comparable "Warden Community" in Moria beta to raise a similar stink. Wardens got a lot of tweaks (and Gramps was the most vocal tester on the Warden beta forums...) during the time I was in beta, but nothing like the massive buffs dumped on Guardians at the last minute.

The Warden community in beta was very light. I'll give you that. But the Warden testing was done right out of the gate. In June actually. This was when Warden started with skills only up to lv 10. Each update they added 10 more lvs some more skills and I re-rolled each and every single time.

I played through over 200 levels of Warden in that Beta. But the big changes to Warden were done very early one because that was the window we had to test them and provide feedback for them. Warden dev window was early, then RK, then everyone else.

Gramps is one of those people that once they have something in their head you cannot change their mind even with OVERWHELMING evidence against them.


Now ask a guard and a warden, whose more survivable, after all thats half of tanking. If their half brained they'll say that wardens are. As for who generates more threat, the warden is the best ST tank, sorry but you out tank SS hunters and I'd like to see guards do that. And wardens have pretty exceptional AoE tanking without having to trait for it.

What OVERWHELMING evidence is there? I have an opinion. You have one too, we obviously dont share the same opinion but that doesn't in any way mitigate my concerns.

[DackRover]

As I had mentioned previously, Never Surrender is one of the things I think needs improvement, I just didn't feel it necessary to say it again.

See...he did come around to it

BTW --Guards ward effects only parry and block and is generally NOT enough to cap parry withought a legacy...and needs to be spammed every 10s, again without a different legacy. I previosuly linked to screenshots of wardens tanking BG with 10k+block, 7k+evade and 5k+parry, and whatever partials that entails...all primarily limited by how much skill spamming can be squeezed in between other skills. I guess when rad goes away e may see some tanking with common dmg mitigation gear in there...but am still waiting for Gramps to post the requested screenshot of a single absorb while standing in front of Durchest.

[zangger]

You seem to have the idea that: the warden is either spamming heals, or spamming threat skills, and if you know what your doing then that would be a blend of both, developing a rotation that involves threat skills and self heals at the same time. The warden skills are not just damage, threat, heals or buffs, a good chunk of them encorperate more than one of those at once..

And Gramps did you read half of the space you quoted?

[Jeger_Wulf]

You seem to have the idea that: the warden is either spamming heals, or spamming threat skills, and if you know what your doing then that would be a blend of both, developing a rotation that involves threat skills and self heals at the same time.

You know, I'm able to work both in, also. However, instead of assuming that I know more than Laguna, I made the assumption that the crew he travels with does more DPS than the crew I travel with. You might want to consider the same assumption.

[zangger]

You know, I'm able to work both in, also. However, instead of assuming that I know more than Laguna, I made the assumption that the crew he travels with does more DPS than the crew I travel with. You might want to consider the same assumption.

The group that I raid with has cleared the whole LT wing through the bossfight while getting HM in under and hour and fiveteen minutes. The group I run with has alot of DPS too.

[Grampsaz]

but am still waiting for Gramps to post the requested screenshot of a single absorb while standing in front of Durchest.

LOL I'm locked. If I'm tanking on Friday expect a pic that night.

You'll just blow it off, no matter Its all good.

[LagunaD]

You seem to have the idea that: the warden is either spamming heals, or spamming threat skills, and if you know what your doing then that would be a blend of both, developing a rotation that involves threat skills and self heals at the same time. The warden skills are not just damage, threat, heals or buffs, a good chunk of them encorperate more than one of those at once..

I'm not the only one who has that idea.

When people are talking about survivability, people assume the Warden is shield traited and stacking multiple HoT's and defensive gambits.

When we talk about threat, people assume the Warden is spamming Precise Blow.

My point is that you can do one or the other, or a little of each, but you cannot do both.

The way it should be is as you describe. In practice, I find need to spam Precise Blow a large fraction of the time to hold aggro. Doing something else would not hold aggro better.

The group that I raid with has cleared the whole LT wing through the bossfight while getting HM in under and hour and fiveteen minutes. The group I run with has alot of DPS too.

Not sure what you mean by "the whole LT wing". My former kinship has cleared the whole raid (hard-mode) in a little over two hours.

[cwswim03]

Not sure what you mean by "the whole LT wing". My former kinship has cleared the whole raid (hard-mode) in a little over two hours.

Yo ur just wrong. Wardens are the best class in the game.

[LagunaD]

Not sure what you mean by "the whole LT wing". My former kinship has cleared the whole raid (hard-mode) in a little over two hours.

Yo ur just wrong. Wardens are the best class in the game.

Speak of the Devil...

[Rainyman]

See...he did come around to it

BTW --Guards ward effects only parry and block and is generally NOT enough to cap parry withought a legacy...and needs to be spammed every 10s, again without a different legacy. I previosuly linked to screenshots of wardens tanking BG with 10k+block, 7k+evade and 5k+parry, and whatever partials that entails...all primarily limited by how much skill spamming can be squeezed in between other skills. I guess when rad goes away e may see some tanking with common dmg mitigation gear in there...but am still waiting for Gramps to post the requested screenshot of a single absorb while standing in front of Durchest.

Dack, you don't know jack about Wardens. And you're at least as much a troll as anyone you've accused of trolling. Having that much avoidance is not maintainable without a good threat lead, and you'll be falling behind on threat every second you try to maintain it. The poster was curious to see how much he could build up, not what was practical.

[Smokey050]

See...he did come around to it

BTW --Guards ward effects only parry and block and is generally NOT enough to cap parry withought a legacy...and needs to be spammed every 10s, again without a different legacy. I previosuly linked to screenshots of wardens tanking BG with 10k+block, 7k+evade and 5k+parry, and whatever partials that entails...all primarily limited by how much skill spamming can be squeezed in between other skills. I guess when rad goes away e may see some tanking with common dmg mitigation gear in there...but am still waiting for Gramps to post the requested screenshot of a single absorb while standing in front of Durchest.

While I don't have a screen shot of an Absorb on Durchest I have seen it many times. My partial block mitigation and common mit is over 100%. This is also with one of the Minstrell running duel tales for the extra armour bonus.

[Ellis]

I'll post, but as a caveat, I haven't done BG (not in a raid kin), and I'm very shield traited, normally. I've never had a Guardian of my own, but I run with plenty. I'm Grygg on Landroval.

With the Masteries, there's ways you can quickly do Pbs, self heals and convictions, and don't discount Dance of War too much, either.. it can have its use. I've tanked while Guardians go OP, while Champs are in Fervor and Hunters are in Strength Stance. It can be done just fine. I've been able to interrupt, self heal and convict Gorothul in SG, although doing so is hard as heck and there can't even be an iota of latency.

I wonder how much of some players' experience with a warden being awful is related to latency? If you have even the slightest lag at all, that's going to mess up gambits and timing.

In Gramps's defense, most of the excellence of the warden is probably from the player who has learned how to fill in the massive holes in the class. So far, the holes I haven't been able to fill is the ranged taunt (which would be nice), and the post-death aggro. I didn't bother to even get the new skill; I die so rarely and if I use this skill, it will just be a total wipe anyway. I also agree with the idea that I don't trust the devs to "improve" the warden.

To me, the REAL difference is that you cannot make a mistake as a Warden. There is far more leeway when a Guardian is tanking. Whether it be lag or fumble fingers, a missed or wrong gambit can blow it.

[DackRover]

Dack, you don't know jack about Wardens. And you're at least as much a troll as anyone you've accused of trolling. Having that much avoidance is not maintainable without a good threat lead, and you'll be falling behind on threat every second you try to maintain it. The poster was curious to see how much he could build up, not what was practical.

Whatev dude...those levels can be hit...you are a self-hating troll in your own forum...and you tried and failed at that same accusation already this past week...as others instead thanked me for supporting the warden class and the work on NS that is needed...still trying to determine if you are Camp 1 or Camp 2.

Go back to the old threads...I knew enough to state then that wardens would and could tank LT HM when you and other naysayers were spouting off and saying how bad wardens are at endgame...you have been quiet for a while because you were proven wrong by those who just went and did it instead of whining. Keep whining...tomorrow it will just be something else....I already told you and predicted THAT about yourself as well.

[Grampsaz]

While I don't have a screen shot of an Absorb on Durchest I have seen it many times. My partial block mitigation and common mit is over 100%. This is also with one of the Minstrell running duel tales for the extra armour bonus.

Whatev dude...those levels can be hit...you are a self-hating troll in your own forum...and you tried and failed at that same accusation already this past week...as others instead thanked me for supporting the warden class and the work on NS that is needed...still trying to determine if you are Camp 1 or Camp 2.

Go back to the old threads...I knew enough to state then that wardens would and could tank LT HM when you and other naysayers were spouting off and saying how bad wardens are at endgame...you have been quiet for a while because you were proven wrong by those who just went and did it instead of whining. Keep whining...tomorrow it will just be something else....I already told you and predicted THAT about yourself as well.

I'll still post a screen the moment I get a chance to. I'm just dying to see your response.

I would highly suggest you going out and 'building' like I have. You will jaw drop how OP it is on Guard.

If you need help with it lemme know

[Aggie08]

[Rainyman]

Go back to the old threads...I knew enough to state then that wardens would and could tank LT HM when you and other naysayers were spouting off and saying how bad wardens are at endgame...you have been quiet for a while because you were proven wrong by those who just went and did it instead of whining. Keep whining...tomorrow it will just be something else....I already told you and predicted THAT about yourself as well.

No idea what you're talking about. The LT isn't so much a feat of tanking as it is of coordination. I've never said anything about wardens being bad at endgame, either. Nor have I been quiet for being wrong; until NS came out, posts were getting pretty stagnant of combat mechanics in here.

My warden is only my sig because he has the most interesting name. I play my burglar and hunter more frequently. Not much to critique with them. On the other hand, I believe the warden deserves improvements.