Why are Wardens expected to tank as well as guards?

[MorliX]

Not true. Heavy has 2x the mitigation increase on set bonuses. Medium = Light. You would know that if you actually played the class you claim to know so much about, though.

Malephor already beat me to it...if you knew as much as your ego claims...you'd know that BG set and DN sets match the heavy armor damage type bonuses. But you keep thinking you can judge my knowledge from the toons I elect to show in my signature. Its always best when someone is dead wrong and being hostile and insulting while doing it. Fail!!

PS double funny...since you have attacked me and my shown toons...you made your own fair game: in the signature line you are so clearly proud of, your indicated warden does not look like it has even been IN BG or even DN (still wearing Spear Hurlers armor)...probably, why you had no idea about the set bonuses on your own vaunted, expertly played toon. I will stick with the information that has been provided by other wardens equally interested in their class, but who more honestly recognize a potential disparity being created.

[MorliX]

I'm afraid I was talking about something wildly different. I dont want to get a ban or anything, so let's just say the patch notes cannot be interpreted in any other way but a positive way for guardians, alright? You will like it, trust me. Wardens wont like it, trust me.

Well then...that is the best news I have heard in a long while. I appreciate the glimpse and do not get yourself banned.

[Tarenius]

Malephor already beat me to it...if you knew as much as your ego claims...you'd know that BG set and DN sets match the heavy armor damage type bonuses. But you keep thinking you can judge my knowledge from the toons I elect to show in my signature. Its always best when someone is dead wrong and being hostile and insulting while doing it. Fail!!

I'll give you that one. You're correct on the DN/BG sets. I don't mind admitting when I'm (partially) wrong, but I'm sure you'll just keep on with the unsubstantiated "Guardians are doomed, Wardens are going to be much better tanks" stuff regardless of anything that is said to you. It's quite clear (from this thread and others) that I might as well talk to a brick wall.

Judging someone on the chars they "elect to show" is pretty fair, I'd say. If you do have a 65 warden then why hide it (I can't actually look at your my.lotro profile as I just get general errors, same for many migrated EU players)?

[MorliX]

I'll give you that one. You're correct on the DN/BG sets. I don't mind admitting when I'm (partially) wrong, but I'm sure you'll just keep on with the unsubstantiated "Guardians are doomed, Wardens are going to be much better tanks" stuff regardless of anything that is said to you. It's quite clear (from this thread and others) that I might as well talk to a brick wall.

Judging someone on the chars they "elect to show" is pretty fair, I'd say. If you do have a 65 warden then why hide it (I can't actually look at your my.lotro profile as I just get general errors, same for many migrated EU players)?

As to acknowledging when you make a mistake...fair enough...won't mention it again...just be clear...you "gave" nothing...you were just plain wrong.

Moreover, you are the one making a false claim, saying that the defensive differences are "unsubstantiated," and there are many guards and many wardens who have discussed it and can see what you simply refuse to recognize.

Glad you think judging someone from their toons is fair...since I added a PS above that you should then find appropriate regarding YOUR warden, since you had attacked me. I would suggest that people should be judged on the merits of their logic and reasoning...not some perceived snapshot that may not accurately reflect the totality of their experience. In that, I apologize for being goaded into giving you a taste of your own "medicine" above.

[Tarenius]

You read the non-relevant parts correctly, yes.

I took out some of the clearly wrong bits. The rest of it is, in my opinion, an extremely over-complicated and convoluted piece of theory crafting. It might be useful for someone that plays 1 or none of the classes involved, but if you know how both classes work you can draw your own conclusions, not read some else's.

THe rotation I currently use includes both SM, WoS, and the random shield bash buff obviously happens randomly. As I said, I would only need to add DoW and DS.

My point is you say you reach the 8.5k~ cap for evade. I get 6.5k with all buffs up. I don't know where the extra 2k comes from, except possible relics which a Guardian could also use.

[Malephor]

My point is you say you reach the 8.5k~ cap for evade. I get 6.5k with all buffs up. I don't know where the extra 2k comes from, except possible relics which a Guardian could also use.

You should reread my post; I edited it because I accidently posted it while it was incomplete. I admitted I was mistaken, and 6.5k evade was accurate.

[Tarenius]

Glad you think judging someone from their toons is fair...since I added a PS above that you should then find appropriate regarding YOUR warden, since you had attacked me. I would suggest that people should be judged on the merits of their logic and reasoning...not some perceived snapshot that may not accurately reflect the totality of their experience. In that, I apologize for being goaded into giving you a taste of your own "medicine" above.

That was edited after I quoted the post. I've tanked all of DN/BG, I don't really have any interest in either of those sets, they are inferior stat wise to what I'm using and the set bonuses are not good. Obviously the full OD set is better than what I'm using, but I am not going to be getting that on my Nth alt when Isen is out in a few months.

Actually I made no comment about gear etc., only the level of the Warden in your signature (which is all I have to go on). I could pick apart your RK if I were so inclined, but that's just petty. My.lotro isn't really a good way to judge gear anyway... my Guardian for example still shows some BG pieces and a 2nd age greatsword, when he's using 4 OD + 1st age. My Loremaster shows a DN set, simply because whenever the stats were updated I happened to have that set on (probably doing Gortheron or one of the trash pulls).

[Tarenius]

You should reread my post; I edited it because I accidently posted it while it was incomplete. I admitted I was mistaken, and 6.5k evade was accurate.

Fair enough. I don't know which one you're referring to, but I was going by post #88 in this thread.

[MorliX]

My point is you say you reach the 8.5k~ cap for evade. I get 6.5k with all buffs up. I don't know where the extra 2k comes from, except possible relics which a Guardian could also use.

NO...guards are lucky to see 3500-4000 evade, since no self-buffs apply...but ONLY if they choose to nerf morale using the evade +attack speed relics. Most guards come in at around 7-9% tops in evade at present...nothing seems to be changing that come RoI. Its an insurmountable deficit...unless there is some major new thing that another poster alluded to may happen...I sure hope it does.

[Tarenius]

NO...guards are lucky to see 3500-4000 evade, since no self-buffs apply...but ONLY if they choose to nerf morale using the evade +attack speed relics. Most guards come in at around 7-9% tops in evade at present...nothing seems to be changing that come RoI. Its an insurmountable deficit...unless there is some major new thing that another poster alluded to may happen...I sure hope it does.

I know, that was talking about a warden reaching 8.5k evade with self buffs, which was a typo (the actual value is 6.5k, but like I have said before the practicality of keeping all avoidance buffs up is very debatable - especially if you're including self heals, where is the time for actually building some aggro?).

Just for clarity (although I would've thought it was obvious) I do not dispute that Wardens will be able to get higher overall BPE. That is a fact. I disagree that it'll make the massive difference you and others are suggesting it will, when you consider other areas of the classes and not just BPE in isolation.

[Malephor]

I disagree that it'll make the massive difference you and others are suggesting it will, when you consider other areas of the classes and not just BPE in isolation.

I agree that I do not believe the raise in BPE will cause guardians to fall out of favor, but there is a point that it is a significant bpe advantage that would theoretically leave wardens being less squishy than guards.

[MorliX]

I know, that was talking about a warden reaching 8.5k evade with self buffs, which was a typo (the actual value is 6.5k, but like I have said before the practicality of keeping all avoidance buffs up is very debatable - especially if you're including self heals, where is the time for actually building some aggro?).

Just for clarity (although I would've thought it was obvious) I do not dispute that Wardens will be able to get higher overall BPE. That is a fact. I disagree that it'll make the massive difference you and others are suggesting it will, when you consider other areas of the classes and not just BPE in isolation.

That's fair...and this really was extensively debated recently, inclusive of mitigation armor damage set bonuses...how well a player can (or can't) bring to bear the wardens superior buffing skills...as well as the comparative differences and strengths. I really did not want to get into it all again.

You are entitled to your own "theory crafting" as to how it will come out...but please don't attack others for having different interpretations and theories, or for having some alleged less extent of knowledge than you from which to make your own interpretations. You had better be flawless yourself, if that is the tact you choose to take...and none of us actually are.

You attacked me personally several times with more hostility than was required...calling me a "brick wall"...the quality of my toons, etc.,..and yet if you go back to the first of my posts that caught your attention "this go around" in the thread, I said we would see how it actually all pans out together.

Next time, just agree to disagree and don't look to get personal.

[MorliX]

I agree that I do not believe the raise in BPE will cause guardians to fall out of favor, but there is a point that it is a significant bpe advantage that would theoretically leave wardens being less squishy than guards.

There are also other skills and changes being added to wardens that sound ominous...though we will have to see how they play out in action. If guards generate less threat and are more squishy...AND it seems RoI might improve aggro swapping for you a bit...there really will be no area where a guard will have an edge...EXCEPT that the average guard player is "better" than the average warden, only because the warden is harder to play. Exceptional skill with the guard is still not going to add much compared to an equally skilled warden player.

I have quoted this before...but this was a reaction from a longtime poster and warden player that initially came here and disputed the same issues with us:

Why are people still mad about the state of the warden? With the update we get:

A- Gambits to snap and drop aggro.
B- Stun immunity
C- A potential BPE of 75%
D- A significant Cool Down skill
E- A potential increase to our DPS via the stat changes and bleed changes
F- More tactical defense
G- More potent leaches for raids and 6-mans

We've gotten pretty much everything we have asked for and a bit more. The only thing left is some love to the Fist line, but we've lived without Fist for years now with no issue. Wardens will be in a very lucrative position come RoI, we should be happy.

As for the slight "nerf" to our healing gambits, remember that with the changes to BPE caps we will now find ourselves wanting to use the often neglected gambits Dance of War and Defensive Strike, and probably our tactical defense gambit too. In current rotations we would thus face a rather harsh choice of putting up HoT's or putting up buffs, with the proposed change we would be able to put up our HoT's and then keep all of our buffs up. Also, the +2 HoT's more than make up for the -10% per pulse; all of that in mind and it amounts to a buff.


And I agree, turning Fist into an AoE line would be nice. Start with 2-3 targets getting hit for ~60% of a Fist Bleeds current damage, and then as one equips more Fist traits that damage increases and the targets and maybe range increase as well. This would make Fist Gambits useful and would give Fist Line a unique niche both in tanking and DPS.

[Tarenius]

You attacked me personally several times with more hostility than was required...calling me a "brick wall"...the quality of my toons, etc.,..and yet if you go back to the first of my posts that caught your attention "this go around" in the thread, I said we would see how it actually all pans out together.

Next time, just agree to disagree and don't look to get personal.

Personal? I don't really see that. You implied a few times that my questioning the practicality of keeping all buffs up makes me a sub-par Warden. You questioned the quality of my toons, not the other way round (I only commented on level, which is at least some kind of indication of a persons knowledge of a class). I don't take that personally, just a part of a debate.

Anyway, I am going to bed, it's 3:30am in the UK.

[MorliX]

Personal? I don't really see that.

You implied a few times that my questioning the practicality of keeping all buffs up makes me a sub-par Warden.


You questioned the quality of my toons, not the other way round (I only commented on level, which is at least some kind of indication of a persons knowledge of a class).

Saying talking to me is like talking to a brick wall is not personal? From your alleged read of me in other threads?

I did not imply you are subpar. I stated directly that other warden players may be able to maintain buffs higher than you seemed to be indicating you could at the time. That is either a fact or it is not.

Your assumption backfired on you...it was your toon that demonstrated the actual depth and limitation of your own knowledge. Questioning how much raiding your toon has seen...whether it has been in "on-level" instances and has gear from same, is identical to questioning a toons level...don't kid yourself...you took several shots in that vein before I dove in to explain a possible cause for your own blatant error.

[teviko]

They have less base survivability, non-existent panic buttons, no reliable way to aggro swap or recover aggro after a death, no shield wall... etc. .

I am confused as to why you think Shield wall (as you have proudly stated that you play a GUardian) that Shield wall is some ubber defensive buff. It's not. Sure, I can make it so my healer doesn't die, if he's not stupid and runnign around with his head cut off, but it cleaves off *MY* life. It doesn't give them any added B/P/E, it doesn't even prevent their skilsl from being interrupted, it just gives them 3 free seconds to run their tushies away form me and my shield wall breaks....

That aside, I think the skill you refer to is Protection. And that DOES do alot for me, but only if I put it on the right person. Doesn't ever do my healer any good, or me, for that matter. Or the champ, or the hunter...or the RK...

The best people to buff this on are wardens and guardians. And trust me, Wardens are the best to put protection on! You medium armor wearing spear toting tanks get ALOT of blocks and parries. My ears ring with how often my reactives fire off with you guys around.

The reason we are so good at aggro swap? Is because your so good at block/parry! When you die, we're naturally next in line to pick up aggro.

I am still confused why you are obssessed with shield wall. I hate it, but use it on certain occassions to give *me* a reason to semi feel useful.

[Elrantiri]

I am confused as to why you think Shield wall (as you have proudly stated that you play a GUardian) that Shield wall is some ubber defensive buff. It's not. Sure, I can make it so my healer doesn't die, if he's not stupid and runnign around with his head cut off, but it cleaves off *MY* life. It doesn't give them any added B/P/E, it doesn't even prevent their skilsl from being interrupted, it just gives them 3 free seconds to run their tushies away form me and my shield wall breaks....

That aside, I think the skill you refer to is Protection. And that DOES do alot for me, but only if I put it on the right person. Doesn't ever do my healer any good, or me, for that matter. Or the champ, or the hunter...or the RK...

The best people to buff this on are wardens and guardians. And trust me, Wardens are the best to put protection on! You medium armor wearing spear toting tanks get ALOT of blocks and parries. My ears ring with how often my reactives fire off with you guys around.

The reason we are so good at aggro swap? Is because your so good at block/parry! When you die, we're naturally next in line to pick up aggro.

I am still confused why you are obssessed with shield wall. I hate it, but use it on certain occassions to give *me* a reason to semi feel useful.

He gave you a list of a Guardians advantages over a Warden, and you go all crazy about the last one he mentions before etc.. I fail to see where Tar is considering Shield Wall to be an uber skill, he is only saying it is a advantage Guardians have over Wardens.

I think someone here is being quite hostile over nothing.

[teviko]

Shield Wall is far from an ubber skill. It would be only ubber if the damage the minstrel or RK was taking (or hunter or whoever else I used it on) was checked against *my* mitigation.

As it stands, if the mini takes a 1k hit that I normally would take 800 damage from, I take the 1k damage instead of 800. I believe, Captains have a similar skill, except that it *does* check against their mitigations before the recieve the damage.

Just another example of a *superior* skill applied at an inferior level. Again, other classes can *do it better*.

And its not an advantage over a Warden, its just another line of skill Guardians have. We have it, big deal, we don't have gambits. I can almost see why wardens don't have it. What purpose would it serve?

"Oh lookie, I'm shield walling the Mini! Let me apply another heal to make up for that extra damage(that should ahve been mine in the first place)."

I'm not being hostile. This guy is coming in saying: "I'm play a Guardian and a Warden in equal regard and lemme telll you....*rawr* *rawr* *rawr* Shield wall, ubber defensive buff *rawr* *rawr* *rawr*"

Shield wall only sounds nice in theory. First off, not alot of Guardians think to use it, and by the time they do, their target is already dead and doesn't benefit. And those that are cognazant of everything at their disposal, use this but take a penalty to use it, and it often doesn't serve a purpose, since you pop the skill, and your healer panics and flees from you, thus breaking shield wall. Then, if your healer *does* manage to stay in one place (say you've spent the time convincing them to) you take more damage than if you had aggro in the first place, which your busily trying to get back anyways. AND THEN! You get teh added benefit of having this miraculous "ubber defensive buff" drain your already non-existent power pool into oblivion....

So mark me the benefits of a guardian having this and not a warden, who have been, on all accounts, proven to have better aggro generation?

[Tarenius]

I don't really know where to start with that...

I am still confused why you are obssessed with shield wall. I hate it, but use it on certain occassions to give *me* a reason to semi feel useful.

I mentioned shieldwall ONCE and that makes me obsessed with it?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/obsessed

I am confused as to why you think Shield wall (as you have proudly stated that you play a GUardian) that Shield wall is some ubber defensive buff. It's not. Sure, I can make it so my healer doesn't die, if he's not stupid and runnign around with his head cut off, but it cleaves off *MY* life. It doesn't give them any added B/P/E, it doesn't even prevent their skilsl from being interrupted, it just gives them 3 free seconds to run their tushies away form me and my shield wall breaks....

-There are certain types of damage that are completely absorbed by shield wall (i.e. neither the Guardian or the SWed target take the damage). This is where it's power lies. I'll let you work out for yourself which fight(s) that is extremely useful in.
-It DOES stop induction interruptions.
-It only breaks after 3 seconds if you don't have the legacy.

The reason we are so good at aggro swap? Is because your so good at block/parry! When you die, we're naturally next in line to pick up aggro.

No, it isn't.

First off, not alot of Guardians think to use it, and by the time they do, their target is already dead and doesn't benefit.

Not my problem that most guardians aren't very good.

[Tarenius]

Saying talking to me is like talking to a brick wall is not personal? From your alleged read of me in other threads?

I did not imply you are subpar. I stated directly that other warden players may be able to maintain buffs higher than you seemed to be indicating you could at the time. That is either a fact or it is not.

Your assumption backfired on you...it was your toon that demonstrated the actual depth and limitation of your own knowledge. Questioning how much raiding your toon has seen...whether it has been in "on-level" instances and has gear from same, is identical to questioning a toons level...don't kid yourself...you took several shots in that vein before I dove in to explain a possible cause for your own blatant error.

Whatever. That's just a wordy way of implying that the reason I think it's impractical to keep all buffs up is due to the way I play my warden, not the mechanics of the class. My assumption didn't backfire at all, just your incorrect interpretation of the gear I was using.

[Elrantiri]

Saying talking to me is like talking to a brick wall is not personal? From your alleged read of me in other threads?

Lets have a look at his post back then:

I'll give you that one. You're correct on the DN/BG sets. I don't mind admitting when I'm (partially) wrong, but I'm sure you'll just keep on with the unsubstantiated "Guardians are doomed, Wardens are going to be much better tanks" stuff regardless of anything that is said to you. It's quite clear (from this thread and others) that I might as well talk to a brick wall.

And then one of yours:

You attacked me personally several times with more hostility than was required...calling me a "brick wall"...the quality of my toons, etc.,..and yet if you go back to the first of my posts that caught your attention "this go around" in the thread, I said we would see how it actually all pans out together.

Next time, just agree to disagree and don't look to get personal.

Saying "It's like talking to a brick wall" is pretty much the same as saying "You're not listening at all". In this case it is technically reading of course, but that is of no difference. It is NOT the same as calling someone a brick wall.

Why would anyone call someone a brick wall anyway lol?

You are clearly not willing to discuss anything, Tar even excused himself for being wrong about the Tactical Mitigations on medium armor even though you were both half wrong on that issue - when it comes to gear with Fire, Frost and Lightning defence they both have ~1400-1600 defence on their sets, but when it comes to Acid Defence and some Shadow defence sets the medium armor only gives ~700 where the heavy armor gives double that amount.

[MorliX]

Whatever. That's just a wordy way of implying that the reason I think it's impractical to keep all buffs up is due to the way I play my warden, not the mechanics of the class. My assumption didn't backfire at all, just your incorrect interpretation of the gear I was using.

Whatever indeed...I guess you have the dn and bg armor in your vault, but just never noticed the set bonuses they provide.

[MorliX]

unneeded spew

If you read the entire thread...it should be clear that tarenius was the one being hostile and insulting and judgmental...I didn't "have a go at him" at all. Only when it turned out he was also dead wrong, after swiping at me a couple of times, did I succumb and took a shot in return...I probably shouldn't have, but it was just too tempting when within the same sentence he offered arrogance regarding his own interpretations of my knowledge (i.e. "if you actually played the classes you claim you'd know this") and then self inflicted fail, since it was HE who was actually wrong on the issue he purported to call me out on. It was a pretty epic fail, which i have now lied about NOT grinding in his face...but I am not going to take more attacks from you without answering them.

BTW, I never said that every damage type was absolutely equal...but he definitely stated that "light=medium armor," indicating that NONE were the same...when in fact the DN and BG are the same...the two most recent raids that had armor offering damage type mitigations...end of story.

[Elrantiri]

If you read the entire thread...it should be clear that tarenius was the one being hostile and insulting and judgmental...I didn't "have a go at him" at all. Only when it turned out he was also dead wrong, after swiping at me a couple of times, did I succumb and took a shot in return...I probably shouldn't have, but it was just too tempting when within the same sentence he offered arrogance regarding his own interpretations of my knowledge (i.e. "if you actually played the classes you claim you'd know this") and then self inflicted fail, since it was HE who was actually wrong on the issue he purported to call me out on. It was a pretty epic fail, which i have now lied about NOT grinding in his face...but I am
not going to take more attacks from you without answering them.

So? Even if that is true, it is not what my post is about, my post is about you not understanding what "like talking to a brick wall" means.

BTW, I never said that every damage type was absolutely equal...but he definitely stated that "light=medium armor," indicating that NONE were the same...when in fact the DN and BG are the same...the two most recent raids that had armor offering damage type mitigations...end of story.

If you read your own post:

That was dealt with in the prior threads as well...boiling dmg types into tactical...it will also effect wardens and guards equally and medium armor has the same set bonuses for damage type as does heavy...so actually combining these into tactical (both are getting a tactical damage mitigation skill/buff) is likely to ultimately diminish the current maximum 10% advantage that guards have only specific to common damage mitigation (by net effect across all mitigation).

....

You wrote medium armor has the same set bonuses for damage type as does heavy, and that is not true.

[MorliX]

I should have said "most"...but how exactly does this lessen the epic attack/fail of tarienius? The one who allegedly had the expert playing time and was attacking my ability to speak/know about wardens?

Also...we both know in trying to pick apart my initial identifying of the "brick wall" attack...I posted and explained already in a post just two down from the one you quoted, how it was a hostile personal attack:

Saying talking to me is like talking to a brick wall is not personal? From your alleged read of me in other threads?

I did not imply you are subpar. I stated directly that other warden players may be able to maintain buffs higher than you seemed to be indicating you could at the time. That is either a fact or it is not.

Your assumption backfired on you...it was your toon that demonstrated the actual depth and limitation of your own knowledge. Questioning how much raiding your toon has seen...whether it has been in "on-level" instances and has gear from same, is identical to questioning a toons level...don't kid yourself...you took several shots in that vein before I dove in to explain a possible cause for your own blatant error.