In RoI, Rank Will Mean Nothing

[Sssnapdragon]

+10% renown bonus on freep gear has already been implemented, the 'purity' of renown has already been lost (though it was really lost a long time ago with Book 12 in Volume 1.)

And I realized I quoted you Kynji, but really my post is to the thread at large, you were just the last one to post.

I agree that the renown bonus has already changed that 'purity', if you will, but I think it's all in how they spin things. For some reason, a bonus to infamy/renown gain doesn't seem as insidious as outright "free" renown given through non-PvP means. I know it's six of one, half a dozen of the other, but Turbine just needs to get a better marketing department, and we'll all swallow their changes better.



*looks for an application*

[Alfwin]

I realize that I violate the driven snow purity of PvP by doing so (I play a Defiler, so purity was low on my priority list already) but I agree with Echelon on this. (Now stop killing me every time I throw fire gourds at you and your friends)

I like the changes on paper at least and think it opens the moors up to more people. The fact is that rank alone does not a good player make. Only fighting, dying and learning from your mistakes does that. There are high ranked freeps and creeps who frankly don't play their class all that well. (For those of you who feel I fit this description please send me a message written on the back of three gold pieces telling me how to improve and I will happily poison your gruel.)

I think this has a solid chance to do exactly what it is trying to... spread the map and ease the curve for new players. My only worry right now is how it will affect gathering maps and Destiny Points, but time will tell.

[Gillianrial]

I think there are some good changes. But, the infamy/renown for PvE is NOT a good change IMO. It's very disappointing.

I was actually offended by the stupid "renown bonus" on the PvP gear. I don't like the purchasable DP perk creepside either. I should have guessed then that they would do something like this - which is akin to the renown and infamy test dummies suggested years ago in jest...like the bird and tree.

I sort of have to wonder additionally - where is the progression freepside? There still is none...unless you consider the laughable cloaks they're letting us...buy.

[dinin42]

Well I for one think this is fabulous. Because see now when freeps go on and on about how they worked so hard on leveling and getting their gear and virtues grinding PvE, I too can counter with that I worked hard grinding out my ranks in PvE. Yay, we are all becoming more alike.

Now all we have to do is wait for CREEP gear so we can grind that too to help make up for our own lack of playing skill. Oh yeah!


But seriously folks, "rank WILL mean nothing" ? When was the last time it actually did?

Shima nailed it.

/Hugs and fluff kisses to all.

[The_Observer]

Given the fact that Kelsen has been more open than any dev about the process ever and that there are numerous posts about the other updates coming, I think now is a valid time to believe there will be more discussion.

The extent of that conversation has almost purely been:

"We're giving PvMP this XYZ!!!"

After discussion and/or few weeks/months:

"We're not going to be able to implement XYZ. Time/budget constraints and all. Cheerio!"

Or:

"Proposed BA changes, read all about it!"

Many upset posts later:

"Tough."

You'll have to excuse me if I don't consider that as open as I would like, nor does it inspire much confidence. So if Alpha, and about half of the other posters in this thread, want to say that they don't like this idea, I think they should be entitled to say so without being mocked. Not only do they have a valid reason to assume that this idea will be implemented and not like it (ie, infamy/renown upon quest completions), but also the fact that it will most assuredly be implemented (ie, infamy/renown upon quest completions).

So your little comments about people not knowing what is being implemented is ridiculous outright. I don't see anyone complaining, though, about the idea of giving coinage as a reward, which is a very nice addition to which I think everyone would agree with.

[Baslin]

You'll have to excuse me if I don't consider that as open as I would like, nor does it inspire much confidence. So if Alpha, and about half of the other posters in this thread, want to say that they don't like this idea, I think they should be entitled to say so without being mocked. Not only do they have a valid reason to assume that this idea will be implemented and not like it (ie, infamy/renown upon quest completions), but also the fact that it will most assuredly be implemented (ie, infamy/renown upon quest completions).

So your little comments about people not knowing what is being implemented is ridiculous outright. I don't see anyone complaining, though, about the idea of giving coinage as a reward, which is a very nice addition to which I think everyone would agree with.

You'll have to excuse me for pointing out the fact that every time something has been posted, there has been ZOMG OH NO threads/posts, which end up not being nearly as warranted when other information is posted.

My "little comment about people not knowing what is being implemented" referred to one person who said something that was already stated in this thread and in the original thread.

Everyone is entitled to complain/rant/talk about the changes and how they feel. I'm equally entitled to complain/rant/talk about the knee-jerk-crazy reaction everyone has had to every change thus far.

------

BTW, Kelsen has definitely accepted feedback and not just said, "tough" in the proposed changes threads. Reavers posted at length about the uselessness of the stun and benefit we would gain from a slow and, EUREKA! it was swapped.

Many people talked about wanting to see progression at higher creep ranks -- it's happening.

I understand people are uneasy about inf/renown from quests, but to say that there is no back-and-forth or accepting input is simply not true.

Is everything perfect? No. Is it sounding better than previous dev interactions? Yes.

[Jamers]

I sort of have to wonder additionally - where is the progression freepside? There still is none...unless you consider the laughable cloaks they're letting us...buy.

Progression ideas for the update have already been posited by the new dev dude/dudette.

[Cembrye]

It is too soon to make a final judgement, but here are my thoughts:

#1 - On Freeps earning Reknown through PvE
It will all depend on how the reward stacks up to the reknown that might be earned during the same period fighting Creeps. I suspect you will still advance more through PvM. This may be helpful to spread Freeps out when they are outnumbered, since solo and small groups can still accomplish something. This may be good, since the default when Freeps are outnumbered is parking in EC or Lugs Rezz (if they hold Lugs) which becomes deadly boring and repetive. So cautiously optimistic on this one... However, unless they really make earning Reknown meaningful, I am skeptical that it will really spread things out through the zone. The better way to spread people out is to have rare mines or harvest nodes, rare crafting materials or mutant fishes found no where else in Middle Earth. This was great in the old days when you had the Isendeep mine nodes, since you had small fights with mining groups. Free Peoples don't need this spreading out of the opposition, since they already benefit from the ability to hunt Creep questers all over the zone.

#2 - On Creeps earning Infamy through PvE
As a long time ranked Creep, I might be expected to be unhappy at this. I find I am not. To some extent, of course, this frog has already been boiled when Turbine changed the way infamy is awarded and increased the amount you get through raiding. The old school Creeps remember how you got 1 infamy per raid kill in early days. When they made adjustments, older Creeps saw newcomers rocket to the ranks that had previously taken ages to earn. But all in all, looking at the big picture, this seems a decent outcome. Better to have more people playing Creepside than less, and the way you do that is decrease the grind.

But what of high ranked Creeps now? I think it all depends again on whether you can get all that much infamy through PvE versus PvM. Again, I suspect the PvE infamy rate will not be worth it for those capable of getting infamy through PvM. I do think this helps newer Creeps out tremendously. You don't need that much infamy to get those first crucial ranks. After that, the balance shifts to getting it through PvM. So all in all, if they do this right, it should be a positive.

One last note on the positive side. Currently, if Creeps want to rank and the Free Peoples have the pop edge, or are playing extremely conservatively (e.g. the Freep raid is fighting out of 1-shots even though they have more people than the Creeps), the Creeps will now have an option to just leave and go elsewhere. They won't get much infamy, but at least they will get some. From a Creep perspective, this is a good thing. Otherwise, you constantly have to accept kamikaze situations where, if you want to get any infamy at all, you have to fight on the enemy terms. The Freeps know this, which is why they tend to park themselves in one-shots and among NPC, even though they could easily fight and win open field. They know they don't have to be aggressive or even particularly well organized - infamy-hungry creeps will rush at them no matter what. So this change could be positive for Creeps in that respect too.

#3 - On Creep battle promotions and extra trait/corruption slots
Hear, hear - this is great for ranked Creeps and long overdue. It provides a much better incentive and reward to rank. Currently, you hit a plateau around R6 where advancement past that means having to choose to get rid of one useful trait to get a new one you have earned. Remembering that currently Creep stat advance is entirely dependent on the traits you slot, this change is crucial. All depends on how the new stats balance against the Uber Freeps we will be seeing eventually. I suspect this first cut will be subject to tweaking once people see how things are playing out on the field.

[The_Observer]

*snip* (our posts are getting tl;dr)

Fine, then to play by your line of debate, Kel changed what people were not silent about.

Look, we all know Alpha is a shoot-from-the-hip type poster, which is what we find adorable about him, but he raises a point and if people didn't say that they do not approve of this implementation, as do quite a few in this thread, then the Devs wouldn't know to look at it.

As far as your posts, I don't think your mocking is the appropriate counter argument, so while you definitely are entitled to say it, you have to admit it's unproductive especially if in the same breath you're talking about how the Kel does read community dialogue. Echelon and Shima's raise fair arguments for the flip-side of Alpha's qualms, though I do admit that I side with Alpha, Kynji, Pouncy, and others' opinion.

My personal ideal situation would be to just remove every NPC and quest out of the Moors. So anything towards that I like and anything away from that I dislike. Allowing infamy/renown to be rewarded for PvE flies in the very face of creepdom. Our whole kingdom is built upon the idea that freeps suck and want to battle stupid computers while we thrive on devouring real people.

This ethanol-blended infamy just does not work for me. And if we, as creeps, start taking away a fraction of PvE from the freeps in order to rank, then somewhere in Eriador, an impoverished freep starves. Then Sars will starve. Do you really want that on your conscience?

[twinsuns]

I think both Alpha and Ech have made some good points. While I would hope that people behave how Ech suggests (spreading out over the map to quest), I fear it will be more like the picture Alpha laid out as people avoid PvP in order to PvE for their points.

As a freep my rank doesn't really matter; however, I don't fancy going up against rank 4+ creeps with decent skills that haven't been truly EARNED. I wouldn't want to rank up my creep that way, either. The thought of getting renown/infamy for doing anything other than killing a PLAYER OPPONENT doesn't sit well in my stomach. Unfortunately, many new F2Pers may not care one way or the other.

[gleowine]

I've had 8 freeps (at least and probably more) to cap, geared up very decently, and kicking ### in the moors over my tenure here. In that same time, with more /PLAYED time on my main creep he is just shy of rank 9.

Yeah, I could care less about the changes. I'd like to have my skills now please; not have to wait 32 some odd years to attain rank 15 and feel as powerful as my freeps felt when I played them.

So big deal, people get reknown/infamy from questing. now instead of waiting 32 years for me to max out my main creep it will only take 22 years. AWWWWWEEEESSSSOMEEEEEE! Wow you freeps better look out! <rolls eyes> because this change is gonna make such a huge difference <insert sarcasm here>

Look, all i'm saying is I doubt it's going to be a big deal at all. The sky is not falling, this isn't going to amount to a hill of beans and the milk isn't going to be spilt so why cry? At least we finally have someone trying something out here in the moors. Can't we be thankful for that?

[Gillianrial]

Progression ideas for the update have already been posited by the new dev dude/dudette.

I have read the proposal. So far, it appears to be...cloaks...(and other barterable items). I realize this may be extended - and he/she seems to be open to ideas. But then, I disagree so vehemently with so much that's been proposed, I don't think I really see the design intent in anything that's been suggested so far.

I don't consider items I have to barter for to be progression. I think we're looking for skill progression or attribute progression, such as being proposed for creepside. A rank 7 reaver should be weaker than a rank 13 reaver. In RoI, that difference will be even more clear.

I'd like to see the same being true for freeps, and nothing in the proposal introduced (so far) indicates anything like that. A rank 14 freep should have attributes that a rank 6 does not.

[Jungleghost]

Gutlard and I were respectable members of society, in the real world also. However after 4 years of being subjected to what one can only describe as 'phoning it in' management of the PvP component of LOTRO, we have been twisted into the creatures you see before you... When F2P comes to the Moors, we will form armies around our doctrine! Think if House Party and Hamburger Hill had a baby, that's what you're getting.

To summarize, I haven't read the thread fully, no one stuck to the #### rule so fit my reply in how you want, or disregard :P

Love Sars.

[Jamers]

My personal ideal situation would be to just remove every NPC and quest out of the Moors. So anything towards that I like and anything away from that I dislike. Allowing infamy/renown to be rewarded for PvE flies in the very face of creepdom.

That sounds like a great ideal, but there are times when nothing is going on in the 'moors. NPCs and non-PvP things to do in the 'moors are a good thing. Can the concept be taken too far? Absolutely. However, I played as a creep at launch, and the game has improved so dramatically since then there's not even a valid comparison to be had anymore. If there were no freeps you could do... a smattering of quests and that's it. I remember when the first major creep quest update happened; a ton of us had saved every type of trash loot we could find in anticipation. The devs have certainly made some silly/regrettable decisions when it comes to PvP, but adding PvE in general was a good one. Adding infamy/renown to quests is negligible in my opinion, provided the amounts are small enough and they're not abused. It's not exactly hard to rank up out there right now if you raid.

This post sums up my feelings on the matter:

Keep track of your own kill points. If they're legit then you can display them to show off laughing at anyone who accuses you of "wood-farming your rank."

We all hate the suction hole around EC, and many of us have wanted the fighting to spread around the maps in smaller groups. Why not give this a try? Figuring out the best stalking pattern around resource nodes seems pretty fun to me. Roving the map with 2-3 people running into other numerically similar groups far more often than now.

With the DP perks and Freep armor the numbers were already inflated. Sure, picking flowers and talking to Nob the Gobbler in Grothum seems like it breeches some false-bravado moralistic PvP macho code, but if inflating the numbers (which also happened BIG TIME in Book 7 of Moria...) will make PvP more dynamic and less solo zergballish then I am all for it. Plus, I can already see the haters, contrarians, and wartab purists finding another 6-12 months of enough e-hate to keep playing.

While you're at it, spread the rezzes toward DG and OR more. Stretch out the 'natural' lanes of travel so people use more than just 1/3 of the map.

~~~~~

I have read the proposal. So far, it appears to be...cloaks...(and other barterable items). I realize this may be extended - and he/she seems to be open to ideas. But then, I disagree so vehemently with so much that's been proposed, I don't think I really see the design intent in anything that's been suggested so far.

I don't consider items I have to barter for to be progression. I think we're looking for skill progression or attribute progression, such as being proposed for creepside. A rank 7 reaver should be weaker than a rank 13 reaver. In RoI, that difference will be even more clear.

I'd like to see the same being true for freeps, and nothing in the proposal introduced (so far) indicates anything like that. A rank 14 freep should have attributes that a rank 6 does not.

I would definitely enjoy a further demarcation as well between ranks. I guess I just don't see a whole lot changing beyond rank based itemization. PvE will most likely continue to be the optimal way to furthering freep characters. Maybe with the stat mechanic changes a slew of passive stat bonuses could be introduced for freeps in the 'moors based on rank, but that's essentially what the cloaks are slated to become.

Which, I feel compelled to add, is exactly what tons of freep players have wanted since launch; cloaks that can actually be used in the 'moors. We'll see if they live up to that ideal, but I don't blame the dev(s) for giving players exactly what they've been clamoring for.

[gleowine]

I'd like to see the same being true for freeps, and nothing in the proposal introduced (so far) indicates anything like that. A rank 14 freep should have attributes that a rank 6 does not.

To be honest the counter argument would then have to be: freeps should have to start their freep from level 1 in the moors, wait 4 years to hit less than half their full potential, then in 20 years from now hit their end goal like creeps have to do.

Trust me freeps got the best end of the stick. Yeah PvP has no real rewards for freeps, but the devs are trying to incorporate them in a way that isn't going to piss off the entire other side who generally has had the shaft over that period of time (except for small very short bursts here or there <or a certain class who has fared better than all the rest>).

I wish they had done PvMP different. The way it was first laid out by the community was different (as were LI's <you're welcome turbine>, skills, classes (RK) <you're welcome turbine>). What has happened is they took the ideas, someone ran with them and had a boss who didn't know <shart>, but thought they did, and changed it into what we have. The people now have to try and fix a broken system with two hands tied behind their back.

How can they fix it now to try and get back to what it was originally meant to be? Who knows, but good luck because they can't start over from scratch like needs to be done and how probably some of the devs would like it.

[F1erceGam3r2]

I'll never catch Jamers post count at this rate....

Does it feel like the devs don't even play their own game sometimes or is it just me?

Sars speaks the truth....unless he's talking about the WoS, then he can eat it!

Gutlard Out!

[Jamers]

I'll never catch Jamers post count at this rate....

Bwahaha! But it's okay Gut, I'll never catch your insinuation count!

[Jungleghost]

Holy cow Shyma, 10,000 posts about what?!?

[Jamers]

Holy cow Shyma, 10,000 posts about what?!?

Mostly lolcats and one liners.

[F1erceGam3r2]

Keep asking him questions and it'll be 11k in no time!!!

Gut Out!

[The_Observer]

That sounds like a great ideal, but there are times when nothing is going on in the 'moors. NPCs and non-PvP things to do in the 'moors are a good thing. Can the concept be taken too far? Absolutely. However, I played as a creep at launch, and the game has improved so dramatically since then there's not even a valid comparison to be had anymore. If there were no freeps you could do... a smattering of quests and that's it. I remember when the first major creep quest update happened; a ton of us had saved every type of trash loot we could find in anticipation. The devs have certainly made some silly/regrettable decisions when it comes to PvP, but adding PvE in general was a good one. Adding infamy/renown to quests is negligible in my opinion, provided the amounts are small enough and they're not abused. It's not exactly hard to rank up out there right now if you raid.

I think you make great points, but I dunno, man, I just still don't like the idea of infamy/renown for PvE.

But I'll admit, perhaps I'm just being very conservative about the matter and not thinking progressively.

[Jamers]

I think you make great points, but I dunno, man, I just still don't like the idea of infamy/renown for PvE.

But I'll admit, perhaps I'm just being very conservative about the matter and not thinking progressively.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not thrilled at the thought, but as I said in another post, if it encourages action at varying levels all over the map... I'm willing to make some sacrifices.

[Baslin]

Again, I suspect the PvE infamy rate will not be worth it for those capable of getting infamy through PvM. I do think this helps newer Creeps out tremendously. You don't need that much infamy to get those first crucial ranks. After that, the balance shifts to getting it through PvM. So all in all, if they do this right, it should be a positive.

Exactly. I do not see it seriously affecting higher ranks. Additionally, on the freep-side, it allows you to get to R4 to get your first piece of armor.

#3 - On Creep battle promotions and extra trait/corruption slots
Hear, hear - this is great for ranked Creeps and long overdue. It provides a much better incentive and reward to rank. Currently, you hit a plateau around R6 where advancement past that means having to choose to get rid of one useful trait to get a new one you have earned. Remembering that currently Creep stat advance is entirely dependent on the traits you slot, this change is crucial. All depends on how the new stats balance against the Uber Freeps we will be seeing eventually. I suspect this first cut will be subject to tweaking once people see how things are playing out on the field.

I completely agree; I'm quite stoked about the progression changes.

--------------
Unrelated to Gobble's post:

As I said, I feel the glory-from-quests changes are the best attempt at moving action around the map that we've seen in any recent history. PvE ALREADY occurs in the 'moors in the current implementation (dare I say ninja?). I maintain that I do not believe the glory rewards will be high enough to truly influence anything after the first ranks. ADDITIONALLY, as-is, no one is restricted from doing the quests, so there is no advantage gained from them that is not universally available. Some have suggested to just "lower the amount needed for each rank." The glory-from-quests method lowers the effective amount needed for each rank by offering an alternate way (by moving around the map) to gain some small progression. Rank is already just a measure of time spent in the 'moors, rather than a display of ability, which is now supplemented by this change.

I will bet heavily that glory-from-kills will always blow glory-from-quests out of the water.

My "mocking" reaction is because, frankly, every proposed change that has been released in the past months has been immediately met with staunch opposition, cries of armageddon, and a lot of whining. Simply saying, "I don't think this is a good change," without actually weighing pros and cons, is not constructive.

Discussion is great; doom and gloom does nothing.

Discuss.

[Gillianrial]

Having a strong negative reaction - and saying why - is not the same as whining.

If I don't like the direction of the game, the PvP, or the changes to my class, etc., I'm absolutely free to say so - and to say why. If they ask for feedback, we're free to offer it - and sometimes if we're lucky, someone actually reads it and considers it if it's constructive.

Overall, looking at many of the changes to both creeps and freeps, my opinion is that the PvP developer(s) are not coordinating with the PvE developers in any real way. There are blatant disconnects between Moors skill effects and PvE skills across the board and 4 years later, still a lack of real progression freepside beyond "bragging rights" and a new horse for purchase. However more importantly, I see a serious disconnect from what a large number of core PvMP players on both sides have valued over the years. IMO anyway.

Where is Luc when you need him? /summons The Luc.

[F1erceGam3r2]

/channels Luc

So if you walked into a store and punched the store owner in the face every day Monday thru Friday, would he let you come in Saturday morning to buy a breakfast burrito? IMHO, he would not.

/Luc channel off

Is that close? I don't really pay attention to anything much to really do him justice...sorry Luc.

Gut Out!