Saruman's Death and the Witch King's Death is False?!?!

[Angel_of_Death792]

In the movies, most of you Lord of the Rings fans must have seen the key moments where the main evil characters die. Two of which are Saruman's death, and the Witch King's. They both died because they were stabbed at key locations, but I've read somewhere that these two characters are immune to these crude methods of ending one's life.

Now, I have to say that I have never read the Lord of the Rings books. Ever. It is such a shame for me to say this. Although, I have read The Hobbit and I've enjoyed it very much. Thus I do not know all the things that you Lord of the Rings veterans know.

Back to my original point, I've read somewhere that Saruman, being a wizard and all, cannot die when he is pierced by a blade. Only some sort of magic or magical substance/blade may kill him. In the movies however, Saruman the great dies by Grima Wormtongue's dagger. Hmmmmmm..... ~_~

The Witch King of Angmar (spelling?) also cannot die when he is pierced by a normal blade. The dagger that Merry had ( given by Galadriel ) was apparently blessed, or was a legendary dagger able to kill Wraiths. The Witch-King's death was caused by Merry, and not Eowyn. The movie version exaggerates that the blow Eowyn caused { NO PUN INTENDED. } killed the Witch King ( stabbed her sword right in the Witch King's face. Ouch! :O ) but what I've read is completely different.

So, I am asking all of you LOTR veterans out there. Am I right? Or is the movie version right? Or is there a completely different answer? I cannot wait to confirm my question, as it seems like it would take forever to read the Lord of the Rings Trilogy and find the questions to my answers. ( I WILL read it. I promise. )

Thanks.

P.S : Sorry if my English is not that great. English is not my primary language, so yeah. If you have a hard time understanding what I wrote, then please feel free to ask me and I'll try my best to clarify things.

[Ziane]

Eowyn killed him, Merry hurt him badly.

Saruman wasn't killed by Grimma Wurmtongue until he was in the Shire, and that was by a plain dagger.

[Hulrond]

In fact, it is said that the witch king wouldn't be killed by a MAN nothing else. Thus, Eowyn being a woman was the one to do it. And it was a prophecy said by Gandalf nothing said by the WK like in the movie. Merry's dagger was forged by the Exiled Numeroans of Eriador long time ago when they were fighting Angmar, the realm of the Witch-King, tho no other dagger could have hurt the WK this bad.

As for Saruman, the "wizards" as you call them, can die from any thing that would kill a mortal. Exept sickness. He was killed by Grima in the Shire after Frodo let him leave, broken.

[Reddhawk]

In fact, it is said that the witch king wouldn't be killed by a MAN nothing else. Thus, Eowyn being a woman was the one to do it. And it was a prophetie said by Gandalf nothing said by the WK like in the movie.

Not quite. The prophecy did not originate with Gandalf, nor was the Witch-King entirely silent on the matter.

The prophecy concerning the Witch-King was first issued by the Elf-lord Glorfindel. It was uttered in warning to Eärnur, the twenty-third King of Gondor. Glorfindel advised him against pursuing the Witch-King during his retreat from the Fields of Fornost. Later, after claiming the tower of Minas Ithil—known afterwards as Minas Morgul—the Witch-King issued several challenges to Eärnur. After riding to Minas Morgul to accept the challenge, Eärnur was never seen again and became the final King of Gondor prior to the coronation of Aragorn Elessar.

Glorfindel's prophecy is found in Appendix A of The Return of the King:

'Eärnur now rode back, but Glorfindel, looking into the gathering dark, said: "Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall.'

The Return of the King, Appendix A (iv) - Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion


Gandalf merely references this prophecy during the Witch-King's assault on Minas Tirith.

And if words spoken of old be true, not by the hand of man shall he fall, and hidden from the Wise is the doom that awaits him. However that may be, the Captain of Despair does not press forward, yet.

The Return of the King, Book V, Ch. 4 - The Siege of Gondor


Perhaps emboldened by a misinterpretation of the prophecy, the Witch-King later scoffs at Éowyn standing before him in the guise of Dernhelm.

A sword rang as it was drawn. 'Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may.'

'Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!'

The Return of the King, Book V, Ch. 6 - The Battle of the Pelennor Fields


The curious thing about Glorfindel's prophecy is that it contains a great deal of ambiguity. He proclaimed that the Witch-King would not fall to a man, not that he was incapable of doing so. In this regard, the prophecy appears to be founded only upon foresight, rather than any specific knowledge of his invulnerabilities. Another interpretation is that—although he could be harmed—the Witch-King would only meet his true and final end with the destruction of the Ring. Finally, even the phrase "the hand of man" can be interpreted as referring either to the hand of a male or to the hand of any member of the Race of Man. With this in mind, it is doubly ironic that the Witch-King was struck down by the combined efforts of Meriadoc, a Hobbit, and Éowyn, a woman. Which of the two was ultimately responsible for the defeat is open to debate, although it would seem safe to assume that Merry's Barrow-blade played some significant role in weakening the Lord of the Nazgûl.

[Hulrond]

Sorry, when i said "Said by Gandalf" I meant at that moment.

[Vilnas]

I wholeheartedly endorse Reddhawk's response and just have a few things to add.

I feel that it is important to consider the different natures of Saruman and the Witch King:

Saruman was a Maia (an angelic spirit) that had been sent to Middle-earth by the Valar (also angels, although of greater power, and the regents of Illuvatar (God) in Arda) to aid the free peoples in contesting the dominion of Sauron. There were five such emissaries, called the Istari, and they became known by the free peoples as the "wizards." Their mission parameters forbade them to openly exercise their spiritual power, but rather they were supposed only to encourage, inspire and advise the free peoples. Thus, for the duration of their mission they were given mortal bodies to inhabit, and became subject to the frailties and limitations of those mortal forms. Their mortal bodies could thus be slain, but in such event they would simply revert to their normal spiritual natures. Gandalf died from his fight with the balrog, and his spirit returned to Valinor where he originally lived with the Valar. They decreed that his mission was not completed and he was sent back by the Valar to Middle-earth in augmented form as Gandalf the White. When Saruman's mortal form was slain by Grima Wormtongue (using an ordinary dagger), he reverted to his spirtual form. However, because of his crimes the Valar rejected him and denied him any return to Valinor. It also seems clear that because of his wickedness his spiritual power had at that point diminished from its original nature (this was a recurring theme in Tolkien's writings). We are left to speculate as to the exact fate of Saruman from that point on.

By contrast, the Witch King was originally a mortal man who had become enslaved by a Ring of Power. His Ring caused his physical form to "fade" - to be drawn gradually into the spirit world until he could no longer have a normal physical form. Rather, he essentially become solely a being of spirit. However, a spirit being of a peculiar nature that was able to interact with the physical world - i.e., wear clothes, wield a blade. By the same token, he must also have been subject to being struck by objects in the physical world. I agree with Reddhawk that the "prophesy" was stated in such a way that we should not conclude that the Witch King could not be killed by a mortal Man, but rather merely that he was fated not to fall to the hand of a Man.

On the other hand, there is some suggestion in Tolkien's various writings that the Witch King may have enjoyed some protection from normal weapons. There is evidence in the text of LotR and Tolkien's letters that the Witch King may have been specially vulnerable to, and perhaps feared, the enchanted blades that the hobbits had recovered from the Barrow Downs. These were made by Numenorean exiles of the northern kingdom of Arnor specifically for the purpose of their war against the Witch King when he ruled Angmar. It is not stated that Eowyn's blade had any special properties, and we are left to speculate whether she was able to kill him with a normal blade (assuming that it was normal) because that was her fate, or whether it was simply the case that even a Nazgul had no protection against a stab straight through the face (as with Trinity's "Dodge this!" to the Agent in the first Matrix movie).

What then did it mean for the Witch King to be slain? He remained a Man, and thus was presumably subject to the same fate of all Men, which is that when died his spirit would rest for a time in Mandos' Halls before departing from the confines of the world (Arda). When he originally became a ringwraith, the magic of his Ring and Sauron's One Ring made him undead, meaning that his spirit remained magically connected to the mortal realm of Arda even though he should have been dead and his spirit ought to have departed. I believe that what Eowyn did was to disrupt the magic that gave his spirit a quasi-tangible form that could interact with the world. His spiritual nature could not of course be destroyed by anyone save Illuvatar (God). I believe there is strong evidence in the text to allow us to conclude that after Eowyn defeated the Witch King, the magic of the One Ring still held his spirit in Arda, but at that point he was doomed to drift and wander as an impotent spirit until such time as the One Ring was destroyed. As it turned out, that occurred not long after, so Tolkien never had to deal squarely with the question of what exactly would have happened to the Witch King otherwise. That said, based on my understanding of Tolkien's letters, I believe that after the One Ring was destroyed the Witch King's spirit did finally leave Arda and at last became subject to whatever fate befalls the spirits of Men after death.

[Laenole]

Angel you have to realize that when you talk of the Witch King and Sauraman you are talking about two totally different type of beings, something not really covered in the films.

Sauraman like the other Istari (Wizards), the Balrogs, and Sauron are all Maiar, immortal spirits that originally entered the world from the Void. To have full power in the world they must take a physical form which can be destroyed by normal methods. Their spirits would remain and could reform their body if powerful enough. Sauron reformed his physical form after losing it in the fall of Numenor. He was able to reform it then almost immediately because he left the One Ring in Barad Dur. After losing the Ring to Isildur, he took 1000+ years to gain any semblence of a form. With the destruction of the ring, he will be unable to form again.

Sauraman was stripped of his Wizard powers by Gandalf after Helm's deep. When his physical form died in the Shire, the Valar rejected him leaving him as only a spirit able to look but not touch the world. Gandalf's form was destroyed by the Barlog but he was sent back to finish his work.

Barlogs gained their power from Morgoth, a fallen Valar, who was exiled to the Void so unable to touch the world. If sufficiently powerful in their own right they might be able to return but it is unlikely.

The Witch King was a man with a ring that bound his soul to the world so if his physical form perished, a new form could be generated by Sauron. With the destruction of the Ring, the rings of the Nazgul los power and their souls are released. A question I always had was what happened to the Nazgul rings when their form died? Was it in the spirit world and went with the Nazgul's spirit?

Another evil character, one not shown in the movies, is The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad Dur. He is not a ring wraith but a living man who is so old he has forgotten his own name. Thetext says "he entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again". If thiis line means when Barad Dur reconstruction started in 2951 TA, he was in service 50 years. One would think this is to short a time to forget your own name, especially for a Numerian. If this passage means when Sauron first entered Dol Goldur, then it was some 2000 years and he used some sorcery to extend his life. This is my choice.

While he learned black arts from Sauron his fate was not necessarily tied to that of Sauron and he might have survived the wreck of the Towers of the Teeth. An evil of Sauron lingering on in the Fourth Age like some other evil creatures.

[Boraxxe]

....A question I always had was what happened to the Nazgul rings when their form died? Was it in the spirit world and went with the Nazgul's spirit?....

About the nazgul and their rings of power:

Tolkien tells us conflicting things about the nine rings. In one place Galadriel tells Frodo: "You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine." Then at the Council of Elrond Gandalf tells us something else: "the Nine the nazgûl keep".

Logic suggests to me that if the witch-king was wearing a ring when he was defeated in the field by Merry and Eowyn that someone would have thought to go scrounging through the left-over robes looking for the ring.

[Ironcrown]

About the nazgul and their rings of power:

Tolkien tells us conflicting things about the nine rings. In one place Galadriel tells Frodo: "You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine." Then at the Council of Elrond Gandalf tells us something else: "the Nine the nazgûl keep".

Logic suggests to me that if the witch-king was wearing a ring when he was defeated in the field by Merry and Eowyn that someone would have thought to go scrounging through the left-over robes looking for the ring.

True, but after the One Ring's destruction it would be just and ordinary ring.

[oldbadgerbrock]

Now, I have to say that I have never read the Lord of the Rings books. Ever. It is such a shame for me to say this.

That is a shame, for you are missing a very great novel. I suggest that you read it as soon as you may!

Back to my original point, I've read somewhere that Saruman, being a wizard and all, cannot die when he is pierced by a blade. Only some sort of magic or magical substance/blade may kill him. In the movies however, Saruman the great dies by Grima Wormtongue's dagger. Hmmmmmm..... ~_~

No, this is not true. In Tolkien's novel Grima kills Saruman using an ordinary knife, only it takes place in the Shire rather than on the pinnacle of Orthanc.

[sir-rinthian]

Something no one is noting (yet); Merry's stab through the Witch King's leg is described as having broken the spell that knit his undead sinews together.

I almost wonder if Merry's blow was ultimately what killed him, and if Eowyn's stab through the face was one of those "Just to be sure" type things (even if she thought she was killing him for real).

Technically he wouldn't have been dead either way (cause dead stuff can't die...), but Merry's blow may have been what sort of dispelled him for a bit until the One Ring was destroyed.

[Radhruin_EU]

Something no one is noting (yet); Merry's stab through the Witch King's leg is described as having broken the spell that knit his undead sinews together.

I almost wonder if Merry's blow was ultimately what killed him, and if Eowyn's stab through the face was one of those "Just to be sure" type things (even if she thought she was killing him for real).

Technically he wouldn't have been dead either way (cause dead stuff can't die...), but Merry's blow may have been what sort of dispelled him for a bit until the One Ring was destroyed.

From the way it's written it seems clear enough that Tolkien wanted to present it as a team effort. I've seen people downplay Eowyn's role before, and I don't know why they do. Merry crippled the Witch-king, and Eowyn finished him; instead of being neither living nor dead he became just plain dead, although his spirit was still held in thrall.

[Mithfindel]

Worth to remember that the Ringwraiths had received injuries that would have been deemed mortal earlier, at the Ford of Bruinen - and, unhorsed, their spirits returned to Mordor. I do not think that being "killed" by swords - Merry's Westernesse dagger, or Eowyn's possibly-also-Westernesse sword (a lot of Rohan's royal armory originated from Gondor) is much different: The Witch-King would return to Mordor and, eventually, be reincarnated. (I assume this is the reason why Sauron would hold the Nine, as he no longer had the One.)

After the One Ring was destroyed, the spell on all the rings was broken, which doomed Lórien and Rivendell to return to "ordinary" places (though often, the magic is because of the power that lives there - as in, as long as Elves continued to live there, the places would be somewhat "special"). The Nine would also finally die and go where Men go (no one knows). Sauron, however, does not die: He, as a maia spirit in Arda (world) is incapable of truly dying. However, losing the portion of his power associated with the One Ring means that he no longer can take a physical form and is diminished to be an evil spirit, possibly even weaker than the wights.

Similarly, Saruman does not exactly die. It would take Eru/God to kill his spirit, though the Valar could lock him out of the existence through the Doors of Night, as they did to Morgoth. However, as Gandalf earlier stripped (authorized by the Valar, no doubt) his mortal form most of its powers, and Gríma killed it, his spirit has few choices left: Either remain as an impotent spirit, or then head to the West. I do not doubt that the Valar would receive him - after all, they would receive Sauron after the First Age, if he were willing to come - but the condition is that he would be judged for his acts. Similarly, if Saruman chose to go back, he would likely face the wrath of the Valar for rather catastrophically failing his mission.

[Diggis]

About the nazgul and their rings of power:

Tolkien tells us conflicting things about the nine rings. In one place Galadriel tells Frodo: "You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine." Then at the Council of Elrond Gandalf tells us something else: "the Nine the nazgûl keep".

Logic suggests to me that if the witch-king was wearing a ring when he was defeated in the field by Merry and Eowyn that someone would have thought to go scrounging through the left-over robes looking for the ring.

I don't see that as a conflict really. Sauron holding the 7 and 9 doesn't mean that he holds them personally, just that he has dominion over them.

[MrWarg]

Gandalf died from his fight with the balrog, and his spirit returned to Valinor where he originally lived with the Valar. They decreed that his mission was not completed and he was sent back by the Valar to Middle-earth in augmented form as Gandalf the White.

I don't believe this is correct. In Letter 156 Tolkien states:

Gandalf really 'died', and was changed ... He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan an enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with the embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'. Naked is alas! unclear. It was meant just literally, 'unclothed like a child' (not discarnate), an so ready to receive the white robes of the highest. Galdriel's power is not divine, and his healing in Lorien is meant to be no more than physical healing and refreshment.

The passage states that Gandalf was sent by a 'mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar' in reference to his initial coming to Middle Earth in mortal form. The next line is crucial in that it says "... but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure'. The capitalised 'Authority' and the idea of 'enlarging' upon a plan devised by the most powerful beings present in Arda can only point to one being ... Eru Ilúvatar.

Tolkien infers that after his mortal body was slain Gandalf's spirit went to a realm beyond what is known, perhaps outside the scope of Eä as it is described as being out of 'thought and time'. Such a description doesn't lend itself well to Valinor where not only the Valar dwell, but also Elves. The idea of the place Gandalf's spirit ventures to not being Valinor is backed up by the sentence 'the 'gods' whose business is only with the embodied world and its time'. By definition then the Valar cannot be involved in the journey Gandalf's spirit undertakes since it involves concepts beyond their remit.

That last line is important for another reason though because it implies that the Valar didn't have the power, or at least the authority, to return Gandalf from death as Gandalf the White. The suggestion I'm making here of course is that the only one with the power to do so is Eru Ilúvatar. Indeed Tolkien states in the same letter quoted above 'That I should say is what the Authority wished, as a set-off to Saruman'. In that last reference Tolkien is speaking about Gandalf's sacrifice in Moria and his subsequent enhancement of power as Gandalf the White.

[Vilnas]

@MrWarg. Thank you for the clarification. I had forgotten that letter.

[fack]

It should be of note that Tolkien felt gyped by a play of MacBeth he'd seen as a youth. He was disappointed that there were a bunch guys carrying shrubbery & sticks in answer to the prophecy "Birnam Wood shall come to Dunsinane."
Thus he created the walking tree people, the Ents.

Also, my main point is that the Witch King's weakness is a simplification of "no man of woman born." The answer to this being that MacDuff was born C-section. Tolkien probably decided that this would make more sense if a woman were to kill MacBeth. Possibly if Tolkien had written MacBeth, Lady MacBeth herself would have stood up to her husband and killed him in a duel... ? (Maybe not. It was her idea to do kill the previous king afterall...)

[Qhouri]

Technically he wouldn't have been dead either way (cause dead stuff can't die...), but Merry's blow may have been what sort of dispelled him for a bit until the One Ring was destroyed.

Somehow it doesn't seem right to me to call the Witch-king (or the other Nazgul) als "undead". Undead imho are beings which have died and then were awoken again. Living Corpses, or the spirits of dead. Usually their "undeadism" has its source in some great external power and doesn't lie within themselves. Wights are undead, controlled by Angmarim spirits. The Oathbreakers are probably undead as well, controlled by the curse lain upon them. But the Nazgul never died. They were (more or less) ordinary humans with some extraordinary powers, but their enslavement by the rings didn't make them die. They just changed their physical and probably spiritual nature.

[kalimarr]

Also in da movies Leglolas shewts Saurumon and Grimya at the same time which makes one die at the top and the other fall which would help the whole dying thing.

[oldbadgerbrock]

You remember the scene incorrectly, kalimarr. Gríma stabs Saruman in the back. Legolas shoots Gríma. Saruman falls off the tower and lands on the spikey wheel. The wheel turns, thus submerging Saruman. Legolas did not shoot Saruman, rather, he shot Gríma because he had stabbed Saruman.

In the DVD commentary one of the screenwriters, I believe it was Philippa Boyens, describes their inspiration for having Saruman die three ways (knife in back, fall onto spike, drown in water) was some old legend about having to kill a wizard three times. The scene received a lot of criticism from those who thought it was over the top, but I thought the explanation was kind of cool, even if non-Tolkien.

I also recall in the DVD commentary Peter Jackson discussing a conversation with Christopher Lee. Jackson said Lee knew the sound one makes when stabbed from behind through the lung from his experiences in WWII. This was the explanation for Lee being able to play the scene so convincingly.

[Smacx]

Does Saruman die in this manner in the book too?

I can't remember that, even though I've read the book many times over the years.....

I thought that the two of them were left in the tower and the tower was guarded.

[oldbadgerbrock]

Does Saruman die in this manner in the book too?

No, as I stated earlier in the thread:

No, this is not true. In Tolkien's novel Grima kills Saruman using an ordinary knife, only it takes place in the Shire rather than on the pinnacle of Orthanc.

However, instead of stabbing Saruman in the back, in the book Gríma jerks back Saruman's head and slashes his throat. My guess is that the screenwriters deemed this too graphic for the movie--I am certain they wanted to avoid an 'R' rating--so they changed it to a stab in the back

[Wolfhelm]

One thing I thought was a cool touch, despite the Tolkien purist in me being a little disturbed by it, was that in the movie Saruman was killed on the very machinery he built.

[JuaQuins]

My guess is that the screenwriters deemed this too graphic for the movie--I am certain they wanted to avoid an 'R' rating--so they changed it to a stab in the back

Too graphic? LOL! Aragorn beheads someone in the first movie and does so again in the third. It would not have been too graphic. I think that it might have been too overdramatic instead in the movie. I like the way Christopher Lee (Saruman) died in the movie.

By the way, did you know the JRR Tolkien chose Christopher Lee to play Gandalf long before he died. Christopher Lee gets all kinds of props.

[Elrantiri]

...

By the way, did you know the JRR Tolkien chose Christopher Lee to play Gandalf long before he died. Christopher Lee gets all kinds of props.

According to IMDB Trivia:
"The only actor from Peter Jackson's film adaptations of "Lord of the Rings" to have actually met JRR Tolkien is Christopher Lee. Lee was very fond of Tolkien's books and Tolkien himself even said that Lee would have been a good choice for the role of the wizard Saruman."

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0866058/bio