Subtle Racism in Lotro

[Oaktree_EU]

The PC brigade could find discrimination in pretty much anything. Please leave a classical well-loved literature - and even this game for that matter - out of the clutches of the speech and thought police.

ive read a lot of your posts on CMs forums and this is the first time i can doff my hat to you

./doff

(tho some of them nearly had me rolling a goat riding RK to follow you about )

[MrWarg]

This has to be one of the most asinine threads I've ever seen on these forums.

Good to see some sense in this thread. +rep for you.

[HumphreyMilkweed]

The problems with posts and attitudes like this is that it's done all under the guise of trying to be informative, or enlightening, when in fact it is an outright ACCUSATION of hostile intent, be it "subtle" or otherwise. Being a white male in America, I am far too familiar with this one-sided, biased, and frankly RACIST perception that all evil and negativity in the universe stems from the white race towards anyone of a darker skin color.

Racism is racism, regardless of the direction it's projected towards. Throwing out accusations here, and labelling certain races "racist" purely due to their skin color never brings harmony or friendliness or peace between anyone. It always ends up dividing, and stirring up hateful feelings on both sides of the fence.

The quicker you understand that every person is capable of reprehensible behavior, and that usually power over people is the source of cruelty, the quicker you will start having a more positive influence on attitudes of people, instead of further dividing them.

[kalimarr]

Racism? Hardly. What about the game condoning smoking? (neither of these are an issue for me btw)

[furtim]

Tolkein's work was a product of not only its time but the medieval era that directly influenced its themes. To deny the racism inherent in the description of the various servants of Sauron, such as the orcs and goblins, Easterlings, and Southrons, is just as deleterious to the work as attempting to censor it. Either way, you're not actually engaging with the work as it is.

The original poster is exactly right. Tolkein may not have been a hood-wearing ### member, may not have had any personal animosity towards non-white races, etc., etc., but his descriptions do borrow from the language of colonialism. This isn't surprising, given that he grew up and started writing while England was the foremost colonial power in the world. Compare, for instance, the descriptions of orcs in Tolkien with descriptions of the (usually non-white) cultists used by H.P. Lovecraft, for whom xenophobia was an explicit theme. They're very similar, because both were ultimately Anglophiles, and being an Anglophile at the time carried a lot of racist baggage along with it.

As for the word swarthy, I think some of our European friends might be missing a few facts about it. It does, in fact, merely mean "dark-skinned". Of course, so do a number of other words that are now considered profoundly offensive. And while Europeans might primarily use it to refer to Meditterraneans, it's important to recall that Italian immigrants to the United States originally faced serious racism and hatred, akin to the modern attitudes toward Latinos in many parts of the country. So, yes, "swarthy" is an insult when applied to darker-skinned peoples from other nations, and was especially so during the time when LOTR was written.

None of this means that LOTR is suddenly bad fiction or an inherently racist book or anything of the sort, but sweeping it under the rug does nobody any favours.

All of that said, I do feel that LOTRO has done a much better job of avoiding those tropes than the film adaptations did. Partly, this is due to having free reign to flesh out the world and add things like multiple tribes of Dunlendings, some of whom are either actively resisting the influence of Sauron or at least neutral, not to mention the choice to depict the Dunlendings as Celtic rather than swarthy Africans or Middle-Easterners or making variants of the Free Peoples races who can have darker skin tones than suggested by anything in the books, etc.

In fact, the one thing I think the OP was truly off-base about was the mention of totems. Not because they aren't associated with cultural notions of "primitiveness", because they undeniably are, but because goblins are far from the only people using them. There's also the Algraig, the Earth-kin, the Lossoth, and basically a rather large number of good peoples who use totems as well. Tolkein spends basically no time talking about anybody using totems, so I have to assume this is entirely an effort by Turbine to reclaim the idea of primitiveness for the forces of good. (Which, for the record, I suspect Tolkein ultimately would have approved of.)

[furtim]

Being a white male in America...

Oh, fiddlesticks, my irony detector's gone and overloaded.

[HumphreyMilkweed]

Oh, fiddlesticks, my irony detector's gone and overloaded.

Your post proves my point. Thank you.

[Beleg-Of-Doriath]

Being a white male in America, I am far too familiar with this one-sided, biased, and frankly RACIST perception that all evil and negativity in the universe stems from the white race towards anyone of a darker skin color.

Indeed that is a good point. Most supposed 'racism' these days, whether vocal or physical, is directed against 'whites' by 'minorities', rather than the other way around. That is setting aside the government policies across many European (Western) countries that discriminate against 'whites' in favour of 'minorities' (affirmative action, positive discrimination etc).

ive read a lot of your posts on CMs forums and this is the first time i can doff my hat to you

./doff

(tho some of them nearly had me rolling a goat riding RK to follow you about )

Of all the wall of texts posts I've done you end up impressed by a single sentence?

[HumphreyMilkweed]

Indeed that is a good point. Most supposed 'racism' these days, whether vocal or physical, is directed against 'whites' by 'minorities', rather than the other way around. That is setting aside the government policies across many European (Western) countries that discriminate against 'whites' in favour of 'minorities' (affirmative action, positive discrimination etc).



Of all the wall of texts post I've done you end up impressed by a single sentence?

It's not just from "minorities." Actually the bulk of the negative propagating I've experienced comes from misguided, hateful, accusatory white folks. It's almost like it's better to be calling someone else a racist than to be called one yourself. So the more egregious your accusations, the less "racist" the accuser thinks themself. Most of the black folks I know, are honestly sick of all this and they just want to move forward with their lives.

It's a very bizarre, completely irrational, and outright hateful environment. And it hardly produces any positive results. Take a look at the responses to this post as the perfect example.

[shipwrecker]

Dunno if it adds anything to the discussion but we had a lively on this subject a few years back.

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...kien-amp-Race/

[Ravbek]

We say minorities but if you take the world as a whole I'm pretty sure that caucasian is certainly not the majority.

[kalimarr]

This thread should be cast into the fires of Mt.Doom...

[Beleg-Of-Doriath]

It's not just from "minorities." Actually the bulk of the negative propagating I've experienced comes from misguided, hateful, accusatory white folks. It's almost like it's better to be calling someone else a racist than to be called one yourself. So the more egregious your accusations, the less "racist" the accuser thinks themself.

Aye, well they're the ones which form the PC brigade. They're often described as "Useful Idiots" - people who purport to be defending a certain ideal or system and yet are in fact simply being used by said ideal/system and are in reality held in contempt by them (the original use of the term refers to many Soviet supporters).

The politically correct do-gooders today believe they're upholding a growing system of fairness, equality and kindness (which it often appears as on the surface) but are in fact useful idiots to the ulterior motives and agendas to the instigators of these ideals - the origins of which are in the bloodthirsty revolutions of France and Russia.

We say minorities but if you take the world as a whole I'm pretty sure that caucasian is certainly not the majority.

And not even in European (Western) countries within the next two to four decades, even going by government figures.


Anyway, this thread should never have been made. I'd imagine it will be closed before long.

[D3str0yer]

Indeed that is a good point. Most supposed 'racism' these days, whether vocal or physical, is directed against 'whites' by 'minorities', rather than the other way around. That is setting aside the government policies across many European (Western) countries that discriminate against 'whites' in favour of 'minorities' (affirmative action, positive discrimination etc).

Wow first time I agree with Beleg I think.

Anyway in today's society every litte remark about someone that happens to be of a certain race is racist. I've stopped giving a #### about that word ages ago...

On topic: You got to remember that Tolkiens work was written so many years ago in a different type society. If it was written today it would probably be considered racist...

I'm surprised the thread maker didnt find the dwarfs of tolkiens world to be antisemitic as well.

[D3str0yer]

We say minorities but if you take the world as a whole I'm pretty sure that caucasian is certainly not the majority.

I'm guessing we are talking about the western world?

[Dormouse2]

There's a fine line between political correctness and historical revisionism.

[Fantoma]

This is post isn't intended to be inflammatory, or concern trolling. It is just food for thought for the mature Lotro community.

These are some examples I noticed of insults that the bestowal text from quest-givers directs towards the enemy.

In Bree-land, the southern invaders are called "swarthy", as in swarthy southerners. This is intended as an insult. Swarthy means dark-skinned.

Also in Bree-land, the term "half-breed" is used as an insult against Sharkey's half-orc followers. Half-breed is a very old insult against mixed race people. The same term is not used, to my knowledge, to describe the half-elf characters in the game, only the dark "swarthy" skinned ones.

Goblins and other evil non-human characters (e.g. the tribal enemies in Lossoth) are shown as having camps full of animal totems. This appears to be a signifier for "primitiveness". To my knowledge, none of the cultures player characters come from have totems. Especially in North America, having totemic people = primitive = evil is very problematic given the treatment of aboriginals.

I suspect most of these tropes come from the original books themselves, which, to be fair, were written from the 1930's-1950's. Other stereotypes from that era have been updated for a modern game. For example, female characters can do anything male characters can, though this was very rare in the books. Perhaps outdated racial stereotypes should be removed too.

I think you're looking for an issue where there is none.

[Silchas]

First, I think branching off into the "PC" debate is potentially more offensive to some people than the original post and also more likely to get this thread closed because of its "political" overtones.

Second, I think Turbine has done an admirable job in balancing the orignal "lore" if you want to call it that, with a more equitable sensibility. As one person has already pointed out, there are equally good "primitive" peoples in the game as there are "evil". I am not sure how the original poster would expect the representation of tribal cultures other than they are in the game. Additionally, in the character creater the Gondorian and Dale options give people a vast range of skin tone from pale to dark and I have seen many people in the game take advantage of them on both ends of the tonal range.

As for the term "half-breed", when I hear that all I can ever think of is the Cher song from the seventies....

[Gui_Incognito]

Half-breed is a very old insult against mixed race people. The same term is not used, to my knowledge, to describe the half-elf characters in the game, only the dark "swarthy" skinned ones.

There is only one half-elf character in the game, Elrond. Also, the half-elven were given the choice to live either as men or elves. For all intents and purposes, Elrond is an elf.

[Dotlbeme]

Subtle? No. The whole story is a struggle to control Middle Earth, and the factions involved are all racial for the most part. There is constant confrontation between races even ones on the same side. The Dwarves mistrust the elves. The Elves want to retain their purity and leave town. Both want to destroy all Orcs and Goblins. Racism, genocide, you name it...

The story itself is inspired from the European struggles of WWI & WWII, and there was plenty of evil to go around and the people on the so-called 'good' side had their own issues.

To point out items from this game and try to apply them to some modern day concept of 'racism' is ridiculous.

[Ailedra]

This thread makes my head hurt.

First, the whole "Tolkien was a product of his times, and that was a LONG time ago" line is complete garbage. The novels this game covers were published from 1952-1954 in the UK....although he'd been writing them before that, the published material is less than 60 years old. From a literary/social perspective, that's not that long.

Also, Tolkien was indeed the product of his culture...and he was British. Anti-black racism was hardly a hallmark of the 20th-century British social landscape....particularly among university professors.

That dealt with, "swarthy" is a descriptive term, with an etymology dating to the 1580s.If you hadn't noticed, Tolkien's literary style is.....wordy. Ascribing his use of that term to racist motivations is simply asinine. Was he displaying his "product of the times" racist tendencies when he called Moria "dark"?

If you'd done any significant reading, you'd see Tolkien's an equal-opportunity critic of human flaws and evils.

The "white" Numenoreans began their decline when they stopped trading with the peoples of Middle-Earth and started conquering them. Their downfall came when they captured Sauron, took him back to Numenor, and allowed him to seduce them into fearing the elves, craving power and immortality, and making war against the Lords of the West.

The decay of their exile-kingdoms in Middle-Earth (Gondor and Arnor) came about when their arrogance got the better of them and they again withdrew into ivory towers to chase immortality, hastened by Isildur's inability to resist the lure of the power to conquer offered by the One Ring.

Seriously, pull your heads out. Unless every author avoids any words that describe a color, you can certainly find something with which to offend yourself.....but it's you who put that overtone there, not the author.

[Ailedra]

The story itself is inspired from the European struggles of WWI & WWII

Sidebar: no it isn't. Many scholars have tried to draw allegorical parallels there, and Tolkien denied them all.

[Ailedra]

For example, female characters can do anything male characters can, though this was very rare in the books.

Sorry, missed one.

Were you reading the same books? Did you catch the names Luthien, Galadriel, Eowyn?

[Dotlbeme]

Sidebar: no it isn't. Many scholars have tried to draw allegorical parallels there, and Tolkien denied them all.

Did not say 'allegory'. I said 'inspired'. Tolkien had been living through the first part of the 20th century where war raged across Europe. If he was not influenced by that in any way, he must have been a robot.

From http://www.nationalgeographic.com/ng...uences.html#ww

"In the trenches of World War I, Tolkien began recording the horrors of war that would later surface in The Lord of the Rings. Later that year he caught trench fever, an illness carried by lice, and was sent back to England. During his convalescence, he began writing down the stories and mythology of Middle-earth, which would form the basis for The Silmarillion. "An author cannot of course remain wholly unaffected by his experience," Tolkien acknowledged, but he strongly denied that his story was an allegory for World War I or II.*"

[redgold9]

We say minorities but if you take the world as a whole I'm pretty sure that caucasian is certainly not the majority.

Very true, the single largest ethnic group on the planet is Han Chinese. Since they are the majority, this means that everybody else is part of a minority.