Wardens needing to have to remember 6 moves for 1 gambit at level 66+ getting crazy

[Zohal]

That said, I wouldn't mind to see an alternate, easier build for the Warden where you don't have to mess with the gambit system. All of your skills are available on the action bars like other classes.

It exists already! It's called "other classes".

Kidding aside, if somebody doesn't like the way a Warden is played mechanically, they shouldn't play one. I don't like classes with reactive skills, so I don't play one of those.

Remembering Gambits is just a part of the Warden difficulty. Traiting right, using the right gambits for the situation, reacting to changing conditions, balancing gear for the task at hand, selecting the right legacies, &c. are also parts of the whole picture. I've seen Wardens fail at each one of those steps.

[Stadic]

Recently leveled a Warden through L35, just got to my 4 move gambits, and adore the playstyle.

I'd hate to see them change or simplify it in the least.

Each class is given a difficulty rank. These were listed as advanced. I'd be disappointed if they did too much to the gambit system, as it seems pretty decently mapped out and somewhat intuitive, at least so far.

[Ironcrown]

Wonder why we don't have straight Fi, Sp or Sh gambits like 5 Fi for a super aggro builder or 5 Sp for a super DoT??

[Alydariel]

I play my warden about once a month perhaps more if i can convince my kinnies to take me into a raid and tbh i have no problem what so ever learning the gambits needed to tank OD, it really is not that hard! the hardest part of playing a warden is slowing my fingers down so i don't mess up the gambits i am building

The gambits all follow a pattern, so whether we are building a 3 gambit or a 6 gambit it really won't make a lot of odds when it is following a set pattern, the trick with warden is learning how to make the most of your masteries that can take some practise granted, i remember when i got them all i had to jump into tier 2/3 skirmishes so i could practise the best way of using them

[Leo_Dan]

I find this very useful

http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/lotro/ (a pdf version is there, the following is just a png image of it)

I love the Train-stop gambit chart. Never used it, but I think it looks really cool.

@People that complain about gambits: it is really no different then memorizing what other classes skills do.

[Aloro]

Wonder why we don't have straight Fi, Sp or Sh gambits like 5 Fi for a super aggro builder or 5 Sp for a super DoT??

The gambit builders all have a short (1s) cooldown. That doesn't seem like much, but in a battle you'll find you can get off a Warcry (Fi Sh) much faster than a Goad (Fi Fi) because those one second cooldowns do make a difference. Right now with masteries I can fire off a Conviction in maybe 1.5 seconds tops, while Fi Fi Fi Fi Fi would take over 4 seconds.

[Harperelle]

My own contributions to mapping the gambits:



I am a visual person and I read left to right, so I find my own diagram easier for reference than the train chart.

When you get to masteries its a whole new game and you have to learn everything over again. I created a theory of classifying gambits into 4 categories: Clockwise, Widdershins, Palindromes, and Irrational. Here's the skinny on that:



Using the keyboard map, you can intuit the correct combinations of common gambits:





Enjoy!

--Harperella

[Cavar]

In any case, I'm glad that there is a class in this game that is not super easy to play...

QFT! Its amazing how people won't put the effort into learning something and want everything made easier.

[ANewMachine]

Definatley aggree with you. The skill consolidation and simplification of other classes that is coming RoI has skipped Warden. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I have a 65 Warden as an alt and frankly if I have not played the warden in over 2 1/2 weeks or so I am just lost.

>It is nuts the design of Gambits.. Maybe it worked at 3 Gambits , somewhat at 4, ->but 6 or more is just too many. I see no reason a sensible skill layout that other classes have cannot be applied to Warden.

> Having 5 or six variations of basically the same skill effect just different levels of gambit like a life leach should be able to be reduced something along how other classes have addressed it with an 'Improved' version of Gambit that replaces a lower level one so no need for any Gambit length beyond 3 in a gambit line... I should think that would be the way to go not trying to remember "Shield Fist Spear Shield Spear" to pull off one move and now addding a 6th length Gambit just too many.

Shorten the Gambits or use an alternate method of skill use like other classes and many would be very happy.

1.) It's all pattern and muscle-memory based, so you eventually get it all down pat. The Warden is not a good alt, though, because of the muscle memory factor (if you don't find yourself trying to build Conviction on your alts, you're doing it wrong )

2.) The whole point of the Warden is to have a bunch of different skills with different niches. There are 3 different health steals: one is a single-shot steal for about 150 morale, 10 targets. The other two are steal-over-times, one at ~35-40 hp per target, the other at 70+ (with bonus threat). They all have their place, and having all three is better than having just one (because you can use as little or as much as you like, get the spike heal from Resolution or go with the more efficient but time-delayed EoB heal, spend less power for Fierce Resolve, etc.).

The Warden is about choices. The Gambit system gives us these choices effectively. Please don't change it. (Thankfully, the WRD dev thinks we're in a good spot, so he's not going to be making sweeping Minstrel-like changes to the class anytime soon... I hope...).

[Cavar]

the hardest part of playing a warden is slowing my fingers down so i don't mess up the gambits i am building

hahaha ikr?

[Jeicus]

Have been playing warden as my main since it came out and I don't agree, here's why:

1) It's an advanced class, if they made it simpler I'd stop playing it. It's the class for those who like a challenge.
2) It's not about remembering gambits inside your head, it's remembering them inside your fingers. I put the 3 builders on 1,2,3 and and Execute them with E. When a person asks me what a gambit is made of, I DON'T KNOW, my fingers on the other hand do.
3) Macro's are not advised, first of all it beats the whole concept of warden turning gambits into 1 click skill, and secondly it's slower then your fingers and more likely to fail due to lag.
4) I'd say warden is not for you if you fail to put in the effort. No offence.

If you give it another shot, good for you, but please don't ask to make a class easier to play when it's that hard, fun and advanced experience that makes it loved by the dedicated players that use it to the fullest.

[Atlandraco]

My own contributions to mapping the gambits:



I am a visual person and I read left to right, so I find my own diagram easier for reference than the train chart.

When you get to masteries its a whole new game and you have to learn everything over again. I created a theory of classifying gambits into 4 categories: Clockwise, Widdershins, Palindromes, and Irrational. Here's the skinny on that:



Using the keyboard map, you can intuit the correct combinations of common gambits:





Enjoy!

--Harperella

I love playing my warden - but if I had at start seen your charts; I had never played a warden ... your charts remember me of a chemical lesson at university )

[Ironcrown]

The gambit builders all have a short (1s) cooldown. That doesn't seem like much, but in a battle you'll find you can get off a Warcry (Fi Sh) much faster than a Goad (Fi Fi) because those one second cooldowns do make a difference. Right now with masteries I can fire off a Conviction in maybe 1.5 seconds tops, while Fi Fi Fi Fi Fi would take over 4 seconds.

Oh I get that part...I was thinking since it would take longer to build, the result should be greater; longer timespan and greater dps for the 5 Sp for example. Just a thought.

[Krondin]

I've never understood the claim that Wardens are difficult to play. I'm no great shakes as a player, but I've soloed two Wardens to 65, with less than top-end gear. The gambits work on a traffic light system - red/yellow/green. Work that out and you have it cracked.

[Galafindriel]

I have a capped warden and since I end up soloing most of the time I just memeorize 2 or 3 that I would find most usefull and leave it at that. Obviously if you do group up then that would change but even then I have found my solo gambits work well in group settings anyway, The exception is a raid, it is apparently SOP for a warden to spam conviction (at least on the turtle raid) and nothing else.

[Lohi]

Gambits follow a pattern. If you can remember the pattern you'll pretty much remember the gambit.

There is also the benefit that you get to practice gambits a lot while doing the class deeds. Ie, you're encouraged to use the same gambit over and over for awhile. Then you get a new level and you have a couple new gambits to practice. This means that when you get to high level you've pretty much got them all memorized without any special effort on your part.

I even found that when I put my warden away for a couple months I picked it back up very quickly. Much faster than I picked up my lore master again.

[Lohi]

Wonder why we don't have straight Fi, Sp or Sh gambits like 5 Fi for a super aggro builder or 5 Sp for a super DoT??

Because these are slow to build up. The gambit builders have short cooldowns but they're long enough that you need to wait a bit to use them again. So it is muchfaster to do spear+shield+first than it is to do spear+spear+spear.\

Most wardens don't use these double gambits much beyond the early levels for this reason; except on accident. Though with Rise of Isengard they've got new uses now.

[ppinkham]

IMO, the warden isn't an "advanced class" until you start closing in on level cap, and then not because gambits are hard to remember, but just learning what works best for any given situation.

Warden is one of the easiest classes to play until you hit endgame, IMO. I'll take 6 gambit builders over 4 rows of skills, any day. It is all just patterns, and very basic patterns at that.

[Gabriel_Theodoulos]

My only Level 65 character is a Warden, and I love them.

Bear in mind, you don't need to memorize every single gambit. As you progress through the levels, some gambits will replace others. If I recall correctly, I only use about 6 gambits now. Granted, some gambits stack very well, but the sequencing is easy to recall.

Also, the gambit hart (in a previous post in this thread) is really helpful. I have that laminated and in front of my keyboard whenever I run a Warden.

Hope your Warden does well!

[Zalabar2000]

Yeah remembering gambits is not that hard. All gambits follow a pattern like DoT, HoT, ToT, buffs, you just have to build off smaller ones

[guguzza71]

I play 8 classes at level 65 so memorizing all the gambits is a little bit much.

What i do is layout the 5 step gambits in the quickslots and know which is what and also that gambits like heals are made up of the one gambit so 2 step less heal all the way up to 5 step gambit being the best heal. I use that logic to play mine and dont need to burn teh actual combination of each gambit to memory.

I really hope that the devs increase the number of quick slots available to us as more gambits are added so I dont have to download addons. If need be I will but would rather not if it can be avoided.

[mr_underfoot]

ummm... so ARE wardens getting 6-length gambits? i don't remember anything from the dev diaries so far.

[BellusDuFenna]

ummm... so ARE wardens getting 6-length gambits? i don't remember anything from the dev diaries so far.

I was thinking the same thing myself.

As for the folks asking for Wardens to be dumbed down, no. First of all, you don't have to remember all of the specific Gambits, just the basic patterns, also known as Gambit Lines. They really aren't that hard.

Secondly, Wardens are what really differentiates LOTRO from other MMOs, like WoW. While every MMO has hotkey-using, skill-based classes, no other MMO that I know of has a class that works like the Warden does. And that's a good thing.

Wardens aren't for everyone, but for those of us who really enjoy them, they are perfect just as they are. There are plenty of other melee classes that are basic skill-based classes, I would suggest those who want Wardens changed go try one of them instead. Maybe a nice Guardian? They even get to wear heavy armor!

[Gilean-EU]

QFT! Its amazing how people won't put the effort into learning something and want everything made easier.

Personally I find it amazing that every time someone says he/she finds something in this game difficult or has some questions, there is always two kind of people in forums replying: those who advice and help that person, and those who want to diminish that person saying "quit complaining, it's super easy, learn to play or go away!".

The former is creative and is what makes LOTRO community great, latter is something we don't need at all.

[Lilka]

Warden's aren't getting 6 gambits. I think that was just the OP exaggerating.