We need instant Q's

[import1978]

Please add some kind of Q program like (WOW and Rift have there dungeon runs) to get Medallions you need. Or at least solo runs. May have to do them over and over more than you would with a group, but least you have a chance. I feel this game singles out players. Unless your in a kinship or sit hours on end can you get a chance of getting some. I myself don't care to be in a kinship. Can't find a group to join cause they all do it as a kinship. It is getting to the point where it is almost hopeless to find anyone to join up. Even if your in a kinship, there is still a chance they don't even work together to do runs. This game singles out players worse then I have ever seen.

[Calem]

Am I understanding this correctly? You are asking for more single player options to obtain gear and complete quests in an MMO primarily specified for multiplayer gaming? Turbine has substantially altered Epic and other quest chains to increase player soloability so your statement "This game singles out players worse then I have ever seen" is unsubstantiated and unsupported by recent updates.

It is your choice to be in a kinship or not, right? On a highly populated server as Brandywine, many players are in kinships to enjoy growing their teamwork skills while sharing social and gaming rewards such teamwork delivers. Perhaps as an alternative to asking for more solo playability, like many other players in this MMO who enjoy teamwork rewards, you could consider joining a kinship and/or growing your list of friends and/or frequently starting the Fellowshps to run the instances you wish to run. Enjoy your gaming, cheers.

[whheydt]

I *think* what the OP is asking for is an automated grouping queue, like what I've read about with WoWs automated, cross-server grouping system. I could be wrong, but that's what it sounds like he's after.

It appears that he isn't having a whole lot of luck with /lff.

To the OP: have you tried /glff, or equivalent, on your server?

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

[MightyKOko]

This make-it-even-more-solo whining is getting rediculous.
I am playing on Eldar and here we got PUGs going for almost every endgame instance, including DN, BG and OD 12-man raids, Thorog 24-man raid, Filikul and Vile Maw raids, all Mirkwood and In-their-absense 3/6-man instances, etc...
I don't know whats goin on on other servers, but if you are on Eldar and cannot get in a group it may only be your fault. It's the same game for me and you, and if I can find group for every instance so you could too.

On a side note - solo-dedicated players should not have the same gear options like group players! Obtaining group gear usually shows enough dedication and knowledge of your class and game mechanics needed for instances. If a solo-dedicated player got same gear it wont make em better group players and may only lead to being kicked out and even added to ignore lists. This may only add to the frustration and wont help you feel welcome.

[Tenof]

Please add some kind of Q program like (WOW and Rift have there dungeon runs) to get Medallions you need.

There is nothing we *need* in a game.
There are only wants.
When you realize that, things will go rather smoothly without stressing yourself much.

Look at options you got and utilize them well.

[Gauddan]

The queueing system in warcraft "works" and I use the term loosely, but is responsible for the near destruction of community spirit since dungeon runs were reduced to "charge through as fast as possible to get the tokens, then go again". Personally I'd much rather have properly formed groups that are prepared to still communicate properly and not sprint through the content.

[import1978]

This make-it-even-more-solo whining is getting rediculous.
I am playing on Eldar and here we got PUGs going for almost every endgame instance, including DN, BG and OD 12-man raids, Thorog 24-man raid, Filikul and Vile Maw raids, all Mirkwood and In-their-absense 3/6-man instances, etc...
I don't know whats goin on on other servers, but if you are on Eldar and cannot get in a group it may only be your fault. It's the same game for me and you, and if I can find group for every instance so you could too.

On a side note - solo-dedicated players should not have the same gear options like group players! Obtaining group gear usually shows enough dedication and knowledge of your class and game mechanics needed for instances. If a solo-dedicated player got same gear it wont make em better group players and may only lead to being kicked out and even added to ignore lists. This may only add to the frustration and wont help you feel welcome.

There is nothing at all wrong about whining about anything, so I think we all have the right to whine about things. If you hate the whining then don't come to forums. I mean gezz thats what there for. This thread is called suggestions am I right? Maybe that is why they need to make it better for people that solo. Like doing Classic runs. Smallest thing they have I have seen is duo? As far as group gear I agree, but there is not enough people to group with these days. Before moria you could get a group together with ease. Solo should have same gear cause we are just as devoted as group players. Yes I played group all the time, but when you basicly wait for hours to join one it gets old. You say "Obtaining group gear usually shows enough dedication and knowledge of your class and game" So us solo players know nothing at all about our own class? So someone who had played a class for 3 years has no knowledge or dedication? Hmmm. I have seen people in group that has NO idea what there doing. Minis that can't heal and we all die. Or hunters and captains that don't take off fear and poison when needed. So ya group and solo players are all the same. Nothing you said made any sense. Solo players not even getting the better gear can make us not feel welcome, not just being kicked from a group. Ya if a group leader doesn't think IM right for the group thats fine. Thats when the solo should come in. Let us solo and go on our marry way. There is nothing wrong with soloing. This is the only mmo I have ever seen that looks down at soloing. The Q'ing systems do work. On wow and rift they are the most popular. More people lvl by Pvping or Dungeon runs. Plus you get Honor or Favor and not some stupid medallion and you can do that all SOLO. Same with Star Wars. They will also have a Q'ing system called Starfronts. So ya. They game is very good at singling out players.

[import1978]

I don't play WoW or Rift. What's a Q? Do you mean some kind of instance queuing system?

Yes you Q up for an instance you need and it puts players together. Don't have to sit and spam a /LFF. You just sit back basicly 1min to 5min waiting your in.

[Tenof]

This is the only mmo I have ever seen that looks down at soloing. The Q'ing systems do work. On wow and rift they are the most popular. More people lvl by Pvping or Dungeon runs. Plus you get Honor or Favor and not some stupid medallion and you can do that all SOLO. Same with Star Wars. They will also have a Q'ing system called Starfronts. So ya. They game is very good at singling out players.

Actually I share your feeling to some degree, as I am mostly solo and team only with several guildies time to time.

But, I don't know if it's a good discussion to compare LotRO wih other games.
There would be an argument, "If you liked such systems in other games why did you move to LotRO?"
My argument will be; "Every game can be different from others."

We are playing LotRO. Then we better play the way it is.
I don't quite think it is a great thing to make LotRO having systems just like other games.

After all, LotRO is MMORPG.
Like it or not, I have to persuade myself that it is supposed to be more grouping-oriented by nature.
The queuing system in WoW was nowhere near grouping-oriented. It was just to support solo players.

While understanding the basic concept of LotRO and MMORPG and if you still have ideas to improve the game further (not to other directions), then everybody is keen to hear such ideas I believe.


If you are really tired of sitting in the city spamming LFF and that's the only thing you have been doing, maybe it's time you moved to another game. (Although I believe things will change quite a bit once Isengard comes in.)

[MightyKOko]

So us solo players know nothing at all about our own class? So someone who had played a class for 3 years has no knowledge or dedication? Hmmm. I have seen people in group that has NO idea what there doing. Minis that can't heal and we all die. Or hunters and captains that don't take off fear and poison when needed.

Indeed.
The over-solofication of the game led us here. Nowadays many people level up to cap solo, and they got no clue what to do in groups. Guardians in OP, Ministrels in WS, RKs who love to pull the fights but got no clue what are their healing skills, Wardens who cannot get any aggro, etc, etc...
But when you see someone wearing DN, BG or OD parts you know he will do his job fine. Even the simpliest to get - 4 parts of Moria set, means the player cleared successfuly an instance run at least 15 times. He should have learn something in 15 successful runs, shouldn't he? But if you are lvl65 wearing lvl50+ quest rewards... nah, you are doing fine solo without those shiny gear.

But... you asked about medalions... I'm not sure what medalions you mean, but you got all those skirmish marks out there available to you for doing solo runs! Skirmishes are all you are asking for - lots of medalions you can barter for a good gear. Not the best, but good. And you got all the crafted gear available for you. So, what are you really whining for? Not being able to get in a random queue run?

[Qhouri]

I agree with the OP in only 1 point: Grouping outside of kinships is a PITA in LOTRO, especially for instances which are not run by everybody all the time (which means, everything beside GB, GS and Schlib).

But this has a lot of reasons, and the Q system from WoW is certainly not the solution. BTW, every single WoW player I know hates the cross server queueing with a passion. There's certainly better alternatives, like an official worldwide LFF channel, a better LFG tool and a revamp of the completely abandoned instances.

Making even more content soloable and giving dedicated soloers raid gear is an entirely different point. Both is not necessary, and I'm a soloer myself. But please, dear raiders, please finally refrain from the unbelievable arrogant assumption that you're the better players and therefore deserve better gear. It's simply not true. I've seen raiders who fail miserably in surviving solo fights. And as bossfights in instances seldom, very seldom contain anything more than scripted events which you have to learn only once to beat them easily over and over again, allow me to call your "superior dedication and playing ability" a convenient illusion.

Giving soloers (or non-raiders) adequate, comparable gear which is acquirable by other playstyles is desirable and a worthwhile goal to strive for for the devs - the famous comparable incomparables.

[maradakia]

I don't know if a queue is a good option, though it may be one of various options worth looking further into, but either way I do think a problem exists.

A significant portion of the end-game experience and it's rewards are based on raids, which is cool, but it has become very hard to participate in a raid even if you really want to (at least is it on my server), which is really a problem.

Basically for the very hard raids, like BG, and OD, people have reacted by becoming very exclusive. For the old Helegrod we needed 24 people yet we didn't used to have difficulty getting regular raids for that together as people seemed pretty relaxed back in the day about inviting people outside of kin. Turtle is basically not at all exclusive. There has been varying degrees of this exclusivity all along, but not to the same degree as most recently.

I think a large factor in this trend is the degree of difficulty of the raids, or the chances of success. It became so frequent that you wipe if the smallest things are at all off. Many would really like to enjoy trying out the new raids, and to get to collect the new armour sets and other valuable drops, but can't get a group. I don't know anyone inviting people to run OD on /glff. The rate of failure combined with the excessive grind means that most people will never bother. For the first time since this game went live is this has become rampant. Even hardcore completionists who I know are saying forget it.

Excessively narrow parameters, or ridiculously unforgiving circumstances, mean you still wipe fairly often even with only the most harcore exclusive, closed groups... so of course most people will be excluded from this part of the game. Tons of time and effort go into developing these raids. They are a large portion of content development, so making them so only a small portion of the paying players will have access to them is obviously a poor use of resources. They are also one of the most time consuming aspects of end-game, and the aspect with the most rewards based motivation, which could keep customers playing and paying, and busy... but not if they can't even get invited to a raid. And if the chances of success are so low, people apparently just stop playing at all.

[Orren]

Please add some kind of Q program like (WOW and Rift have there dungeon runs) to get Medallions you need. Or at least solo runs. May have to do them over and over more than you would with a group, but least you have a chance. I feel this game singles out players. Unless your in a kinship or sit hours on end can you get a chance of getting some. I myself don't care to be in a kinship. Can't find a group to join cause they all do it as a kinship. It is getting to the point where it is almost hopeless to find anyone to join up. Even if your in a kinship, there is still a chance they don't even work together to do runs. This game singles out players worse then I have ever seen.

I do not think a Q program like Wow would be a good idea as it destroys the communication between players; I have experienced it first hand on Wow and while there are some groups that are fine they are more often than not bad groups.

The positives about using /globallff and /lff channels are that the more effort a person has to put into finding a group the more they will cherish that group. If Lotro ever gets to the point where people just have to click a button and get an instant group the community will slide into oblivion.

Make it harder for people and the level of politeness and communication is high; if people just need to click an "instagroup" button they will not take the time to chat to people.

The Q program for Wow is one of the things that is destroying the community so I really do not believe Lotro needs the same thing to happen.

We cannot have everything if you do not want to join a kinship then I am afraid you may have to accept that there is parts of the game you will never see.

Do you really want this game to end up like Wow? The main reason I still play this game is because the community is the complete opposite of Wow, please don't make it a carbon copy.

Just my opinion mind.

Furthermore, some people leave Wow and come here, then expect the same type of gaming system to be in place; yet they never think why they left Wow in the first place. What were their reasons, was it because the gaming system in Wow was bad or the community was bad. I'm not saying this is everyone but ask yourself the question.

The premise of this game, for me, is fellowship, which means groups, which means working together; think about the books and the films. Yes Frodo could've ask Gandalf for an instand Eagle ride to Mordor to drop the ring in the fires of Mount Doom, but what would they have learnt about friendship and their fellow Man, Dwarf, Hobbit or Elf?

The more you ask in the lff channels the more people will recognize your name, so keep trying and when you find good people, add them to your friends list. It is hard I know, but anything we have to work for we enjoy more.

[Zarador]

This make-it-even-more-solo whining is getting rediculous.

On a side note - solo-dedicated players should not have the same gear options like group players! Obtaining group gear usually shows enough dedication and knowledge of your class and game mechanics needed for instances. If a solo-dedicated player got same gear it wont make em better group players and may only lead to being kicked out and even added to ignore lists. This may only add to the frustration and wont help you feel welcome.

I could not agree more! So, what you are saying is that the instances and raids should allow that player to only wear the gear while inside the encounter or instance, perhaps a raid set added to the character model to facilitate that process. This way, the raid/instance player can't trivialize the content outside of the instance/encounter.

Lets face it, a end game geared player is not helping that fellowship outside the encounter learn a thing when they are in superman mode. Not to mention the unfair advantage when competing against a well skilled and trained solo/duo in the zone.

This would prevent some of the pompous gear waving arrogant elites from winding up on ignore lists when doing solo/small group content.

See what I did there?

(As an aside, we have an automatic QQ program in place. Every time someone suggests an easier way of forming up with groups someone feels the need to QQ about how groups/raids must remain for the elite)

[djheydt]

Yes you Q up for an instance you need and it puts players together. Don't have to sit and spam a /LFF. You just sit back basicly 1min to 5min waiting your in.

And you're in a PUG, with all that that implies. The system neither knows nor cares whether you get grouped with people who are competent or not, and you don't know either till it's all over and you're lying eviscerated on the dungeon floor. This does not sound like an improvement.

[timelf11]

this might be a good idea. i've played WoW too (for a short time) and the grouping tool was the best thing and the worst thing in the whole game.

the reason it was the best thing in game was because you weren't limited by time of the day while grouping. currently, in LotRO, you have zero change to find a group for dungeons other then scl/lib on work hours (8-5 approximately). with the coming of the european servers, this could be reduced with a cross server group finding option.

the reason it was the worst thing was because people became ####. they just scold when somebody did something wrong and sometimes even left the group if there was someone who didn't know the instance. this was because, with million people using the finder, you never see these people again. they couldn't even ask hat they did wrong, cause when they left the group, there was no way to communicate with the other server people.


i personally believe this could work in LotRO because the most annoying feature, scolding people, is absent. lotro players aren't playing this game just for the rewards, but for the fun too.
there, however, will need to be looked at every instance to make the need for the group (GS:healer, tank, off-tank, drum-able person, support, dps)(GB: tank, healer, 1 support, 3 dps)

[hucklebarry]

I think the big difference between what other games do and what Lotro does is the ability to cross-server queue. I see a lot of complaints for an LFF tool and the fact is that you can actually go in game and mark yourself down for a specific fellowship quest. Others can automatically join that fellowship. You can even say what classes you are looking for.

No one uses this tool. This makes me think that its difficult to plan buildtime on more feature rich versions of the tool.

Check out your fellowship panel and click that open groups tab at the bottom. This has 80 - 90% of what most people ask for. If it wasn't empty all the time, there might be justification to improve it.

(Thread title makes me think you want faster crying )

[whheydt]

Personally I'd much rather have properly formed groups that are prepared to still communicate properly and not sprint through the content.

Yes...that would be nice. Reminds one of the time Mohandas Gandhi was asked what he thought of Western Civilization and replied that he thought it would be a good idea.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

[whheydt]

There is nothing at all wrong about whining about anything, so I think we all have the right to whine about things.

So far as it goes, this is correct. It does overlook the fact that most people really aren't all that fond of being whined at--just ask anyone who has ever had to deal with a small child.

If you hate the whining then don't come to forums. I mean gezz thats what there for.

Well...no. One can come the forums and criticize whining. The forums aren't here specifically to support whining, and THIS forum (Suggestions) is intended for game improving suggestions. That can be done without whining.

For what it's worth, I didn't take your initial post as whining so much as describing your frustration over grouping for content, and that's a legitimate gripe. Many people have posted various solutions to the problem. Contrary to some of the posts that have already shown up in this thread, you did NOT propose setting up solo access to the current group content. Instead, you've asked for mechanism to make forming groups easier. Plus points for that approach.

This thread is called suggestions am I right?

Yes, this forum is for suggestions. However, that doesn't mean that suggestions have to accepted without criticism. Many suggestions that are made have flaws--and sometimes fatal flaws--which might be overcome through commentary by others. Some suggestions are things that some segment--and on occasion a very large segment--of the LoTRO community are adamantly opposed to. Any suggestion put out here is subject to whatever treatment someone else wishes to apply to it...so long as it is the idea that is criticized, not the person putting forth the idea (and that applies to all sides of the issues).

Maybe that is why they need to make it better for people that solo. Like doing Classic runs. Smallest thing they have I have seen is duo? As far as group gear I agree, but there is not enough people to group with these days. Before moria you could get a group together with ease.

That has more to do with the "pig in the python" effect. When there is a large contingent of players moving characters through the same levels, finding groups is substantially easier than when there are relatively few characters available to group with "on level". As characters accumulate at the level cap, more and more of the lower level quests are being run on alts (and the player is familiar with that content already) and with friends the players have come to know over time.

Solo should have same gear cause we are just as devoted as group players.

This is a "controversial subject." Emotions run high on it--on both sides.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

[droid]

I want to play WoW without having to pay a monthly sub

Sorry, but thats what it sounds like when you come in here citing WoW and using WoW terminology and asking the devs to cut-and-paste everything from WoW. Also, the word is "queue", not "Q", as Q is usually an abbreviation for "quests", as in "QPs", or an omnipotent and capricious cosmic life form

As to your actual suggestion: try /GLFF, you usually can get a group together there, or find a group, with little trouble, as that channel is server-wide while /LFF I think is just regional. Its also the de facto social chat channel, so its a nice place to get to know your server regulars.

Also, WoW is, from what I've heard, centered around endgame raiding. The group-finding tools there are necessary as there is no solo endgame. LOTRO is much different in that regard; all our questlines are designed to be soloable, almost all repeatable quests are soloable, even some small-fellowship quests are soloable for skilled players, and we even have "solo raids", skirmishes. Raid gear is the best, yes, but its only degrees better than what can be acquired by soloing and trading. You never have to group in LOTRO to succeed. I never do.

In short: WoW may need group queues, because of the way the game is designed, but LOTRO does not.

[PenrodBarker]

I feel this game singles out players.

It's an MMO. Second "M" stands for multiplayer, which implies grouping is going to be required for certain things.

Unless your in a kinship or sit hours on end can you get a chance of getting some.

If the gear isn't worth putting in the time and effort to be in a kinship or to find a PUG, then it really must not be "needed."

I myself don't care to be in a kinship.

Well then, waiting around to get in a PUG comes with the territory.

Can't find a group to join cause they all do it as a kinship.

No way do all kinships on your(or any) server do kinship only runs exclusively.

It is getting to the point where it is almost hopeless to find anyone to join up. Even if your in a kinship, there is still a chance they don't even work together to do runs.

If the kin you're in can't get it together to run the content you want, then find another.

Personally, I liked the change to having the Epic Books soloable. Those are improtant to the story of LOTRO and players can miss out on much if they don't complete them(the Narmeleth storyline was great). But making endgame content for raid gear soloable is just too much.

[whheydt]

It's an MMO. Second "M" stands for multiplayer, which implies grouping is going to be required for certain things.

Actually...all that 'M' tells you is that the servers have a significant number of player characters in the same world where they can interact if they choose to do so. It says nothing about requiring specific behaviors like grouping, though the game mechanics are usually set up to permit grouping.

If the gear isn't worth putting in the time and effort to be in a kinship or to find a PUG, then it really must not be "needed."

I believe the OPs issue is the difficulty in forming groups. He's far from the only poster ever to start a thread over that problem. He has indicated an interest in solo acquisition as an *alternative* path if grouping continues to be a problem. On those issues, he's probably got it right.

But making endgame content for raid gear soloable is just too much.

Really? The very idea of comparable gear attainable through solo play, or crafting--such as the "comparable incomparbles" from SoA is just too much? I could make a case that the last people in the game that need the best gear are raiders, for the very reasons that raiders have cited for raiding. Hmmm.... I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this point.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

[PenrodBarker]

Actually...all that 'M' tells you is that the servers have a significant number of player characters in the same world where they can interact if they choose to do so. It says nothing about requiring specific behaviors like grouping, though the game mechanics are usually set up to permit grouping.

LOTRO is the first(and still only) MMO I've ever played. Even with no prior experience with the genre I knew that as some point or another I was going to have to group up with other players to get through, and by the time a player reaches level cap they should've picked up a few hints alluding to such along the way.

I believe the OPs issue is the difficulty in forming groups. He's far from the only poster ever to start a thread over that problem. He has indicated an interest in solo acquisition as an *alternative* path if grouping continues to be a problem. On those issues, he's probably got it right.

If grouping is a problem, then the OP should consider biting the bullet and finding a kin that is actively doing the kind of content desired. Or moving to a server where it's easier to find PUGs. There are plenty of solutions to the problem other than making such changes to the game. That's what I did. Guess some people are just more determined to get what they want done than others.

Really? The very idea of comparable gear attainable through solo play, or crafting--such as the "comparable incomparbles" from SoA is just too much? I could make a case that the last people in the game that need the best gear are raiders, for the very reasons that raiders have cited for raiding. Hmmm.... I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this point.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

I'm talking about the idea of making gear from instances like OD or the upcoming RoI cluster available to non-group players. I'm aware that pieces of the new set are going to be available for soloers. I just hope this isn't the start of the descent down the slippery slope that leads to more concessions to players unable or unwilling to group.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that most players want raid gear for the express purpose of raiding. And how is "the last people in the game that need the best gear are raiders" true? Isn't the idea of a raid to present content that is more challenging even for a group than solo content?

[Ethelryn]

I used to play DDO a long time ago, and seem to remember they had a good system for making groups.
You could put yourself up for looking for a group for an instance or something, here you could say what instances you wanted to do and if you were tank, dps or healer.

There was no automation of this system, you would appear on a "list" of sorts where others could find you, they could then send you a tell asking you if you wanted to join them for said instance or other group content and then manually invite you.

You would also get an icon above your head showing that you were looking for a group, so someone in a group looking for more who met you in the world could see that you were interested in a group and contact you.

It was a great system and made finding groups a very smooth process, and you didnt have to sit and spam chat channels half the day just to get a group.

[whheydt]

LOTRO is the first(and still only) MMO I've ever played. Even with no prior experience with the genre I knew that as some point or another I was going to have to group up with other players to get through, and by the time a player reaches level cap they should've picked up a few hints alluding to such along the way.

I've played Asheron's Call (AC), AC2, the beta of DDO and LoTRO. It is entirely possible to play LoTRO from character creation to level cap completely solo and to do any number things besides general quests along the way, such as crafting and the Epic Quest line. I think you might find this article to be interesting to read. It may expand your horizons a bit.

If grouping is a problem, then the OP should consider biting the bullet and finding a kin that is actively doing the kind of content desired. Or moving to a server where it's easier to find PUGs. There are plenty of solutions to the problem other than making such changes to the game. That's what I did. Guess some people are just more determined to get what they want done than others.

People do vary in how they wish to play these games. There is no "one size fits all" approach. If the OP wishes to do instance runs by searching for PUGs, that's as valid an approach as the one you suggest.

I'm talking about the idea of making gear from instances like OD or the upcoming RoI cluster available to non-group players. I'm aware that pieces of the new set are going to be available for soloers. I just hope this isn't the start of the descent down the slippery slope that leads to more concessions to players unable or unwilling to group.

Sorry...that slope is no longer merely slippery. Things that start out "raid or group accessed only" don't stay that way. Just to name two...rep with the Eldgang is available through a solo skirmish, and Symbols of Celebrimbor are available by bartering solo skirmish reward items. That "battle" is already lost.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that most players want raid gear for the express purpose of raiding. And how is "the last people in the game that need the best gear are raiders" true? Isn't the idea of a raid to present content that is more challenging even for a group than solo content?

Raiders keep saying that they raid for the "challenge" of raiding. Now if they're in it for the challenge, why on Earth would they want armor that REDUCES the challenge? Isn't that counterproductive to their entire raison d'etre? Shouldn't people who AREN'T looking for a challenge be using armor that reduces challenge?

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer