So whats the immediate first impression?

[Sssnapdragon]

So what makes the difference?

Attitude!

Luc is hung-up on the idea that his "liberal YEARS" of playing should mean something to everyone else in the moors. The problem is that a relatively new rank 5 reaver doesn't care how long you have been in the moors, or what rank you are, or WHO you are...they just want to engage you in battle, your skills vs. their skills. Why anyone wants to create a barrier to that, as Baslion said, is beyond me.

Our PvP zone has never really offered major rewards for ranking, so why people continually expect them surprises me. In fact, I don't WANT them. This zone is supposed to be enjoyable...a way to happily slaughter the opposition in a PvE grind-free zone. Why people continue to ask for a reward grind to be added is something I don't understand. If you chose to grind to rank 15 that's your business, you get the icon and the title and your personal sense of pride. But your rank shouldn't mean that you literally have a one-up on the opponent. Buying skills in the store has actually negated that, which I think is fantastic. I LOVE that I can bring Kynji out at level 75 and rank 9, and I am as powerful as I will be at rank 12 (I acknowledge improved gear and weapons will change that but bear with me). Instead, I am relying on my own personal skills to determine whether I win or lose. That's how it should be.

Am I totally opposed to all rewards....noooo....but only if they are totally useless in the moors and equal to both sides.

[Umbrarg]

Kynji is absolutely right, the moors is the place to run around, eat Freeps, have fun, and maybe nibble a muffin or two.

If it's not fun, there's no point.

Rank shouldn't give you an overwhelming bonus, it just reflects the time you've spent in the moors. It is however, a sign that whoever achieved rank X should actually have a vague idea of what they are doing, and provide a challenge as appropriate.

Bought skills have completely negated rank as a skills available indicator, so all that differentiates players now is purely their class and innate play abilities. A good thing? Perhaps! I know I certainly have no major ability, but then I just play for giggles and the muffins

Also, hypocrite or not, I am dead miffed seeing all these R0 wargs running around in Shadow Howler. Rank has negatively gated me here, I am at a disadvantage of my own making, so yup - I'm going to give in and buy those skills with the TP gathering dust. Of course - wether I actually use them is a different matter entirely

Love & Hugs

Fluffy Hithy

[TheBigMenace]

So what makes the difference?

Well for freeps it can be lack of player skill, lack of gear, lack of knowledge, or an incorrect build.

I've noticed on landroval, it seems to be all of the above.

Contrary to popular belief there IS a correct way to build and play your character, anything else is suboptimal. The burden of choice seems to be a big problem here, as I seem people running around with suboptimal specs/gear choices all the time. Then you get massive QQ about how OP creeps are, when in reality a properly built freep should dominate any creep.

Creeps are very linear in their design, there are not many skills so you can't really pull a bad rotation in that regard. Their traits are also very limited, with the exception of corruptions so you can't mess up here either. They have no gear so their stats are given to them at the get-go so essentially they are well geared and traited no matter what.

Freeps on the other hand, are far more complex. They have at least three full hot bars of abilities, some of which are not worth using, they have three different trait lines, and 7 legendary traits to choose from. Not to mention 15+ slots of gear to optimize, as well as two legendary weapons to max out and tailor to their spec.

This is the reason the results are all over the place, couple it with a lack of player skill (which landroval is notorious for) and you have your answer.

[Olympic]

Well for freeps it can be lack of player skill, lack of gear, lack of knowledge, or an incorrect build.

I've noticed on landroval, it seems to be all of the above.

Contrary to popular belief there IS a correct way to build and play your character, anything else is suboptimal. The burden of choice seems to be a big problem here, as I seem people running around with suboptimal specs/gear choices all the time. Then you get massive QQ about how OP creeps are, when in reality a properly built freep should dominate any creep.

Creeps are very linear in their design, there are not many skills so you can't really pull a bad rotation in that regard. Their traits are also very limited, with the exception of corruptions so you can't mess up here either. They have no gear so their stats are given to them at the get-go so essentially they are well geared and traited no matter what.

Freeps on the other hand, are far more complex. They have at least three full hot bars of abilities, some of which are not worth using, they have three different trait lines, and 7 legendary traits to choose from. Not to mention 15+ slots of gear to optimize, as well as two legendary weapons to max out and tailor to their spec.

This is the reason the results are all over the place, couple it with a lack of player skill (which landroval is notorious for) and you have your answer.

A serious +1

[Thane9]

Luc:

You always claim to want a good fight. Creating a large barrier to beginning competitive PvMP by making high ranks THAT much more powerful will not welcome new people to PvMP. No new people = no focus from Turbine's development.

Warhammer's RvR provides very very very strong gear to high ranks. All it takes is facerolling from a high RRank player to crush someone newer to the zone.

Skill should mean much more than time spent/gear acquired. Yes, you have spent years in the 'moors. Your victories should be a result of your experience and skill, not because you got a roflwtfzomg R12 axe and armor of noob-pwnage.

Should there be rewards/incentives for those who spend more time in the 'moors? Yes.

Should those rewards allow them to faceroll/require numerous people to take them down? I'd lean toward no. (And being someone who loves 1v1s so much, I'm shocked you think otherwise.)

EDIT: This isn't to say that great rewards shouldn't be available to higher ranks. I just do not think the rewards should create the imbalance that you require numerous people to take you down.

I love soloing. That doesn't mean exclusively 1v1.

There's a HUGE difference. And it's why you'll not see me participating in arranged fights.

In fact some of the absolute BEST action I've ever seen in the moors was back in SoA when I had a penchant for flipping hotspots, and hunting creeps trying to flip them back. LOTS of 2,3,4 v me that were SUPER fun depending on the mobs around at the time.

Of course some 1v1s are fantastic, and I like them when they happen. Love them. But I'm not exclusively looking for some creep to match up to me perfectly and just fight. I'd rather move around the map and get into interesting fights, win or lose, than just fightclub my way to ranking.

I understand the risks that come with soloing. In fact, I'd suggest there's likely no one else on this server that understands them, and how they've shifted over the years, than I do. I not only accept those risks, but for the most part (purposeful ganking aside) I enjoy them.

So that means when I run across 3 creeps I know I'm not coming out alive...and I just bite down and pray to kill one. And when a raid crosses my path...yup...I go boom.

And just as there's dynamic variance across the map with respect to #s. There's also dynamic variance with respect to power level.

I find BOTH to be healthy and one of the primary reasons that PvMP is superior in my eyes to PvP in other games.

I like that when I get pounced by Arctic I have a very different set of responses than when I'm pounced by a low rank name I don't recognize. I like that I can sometimes hold my own and win the day against two creeps, but other times I'm in for a world of hurt if I don't have the right cooldowns up.

If those facts scare away players...then it's likely they're not the type of player you'd want in the moors anyhow. NOR would the moors be the type of gameplay that they'd enjoy anyhow.

Maybe wargs and burgs think differently on this topic, due to their ability to control which fights they engage in to a far greater extent. But from where I sit, there is only one truth in the moors. You will die. Often. And frustratingly at times. That, IMHO is a good thing.

If I just wanted to spar evenly balanced opponents over and over I'd honestly go play another game. There are FAR better PvP systems out there for that kind of thing. I can count the times I've taken off my "no-spar" toggle setting in LotRO on one hand....in fact only on two fingers. It's just not an aspect of the game that excites me.

Am I concerned about the "flattening" of creep power? Absolutely. I think it has the risk of making "winning by numbers" become the predominant playstyle...and that worries me.

Am I concerned about the overall freep power level? Yes...although I haven't seen any pieces of the sky on my carpet yet. I think the concerning thing is that our cooldowns (specifically speaking about Champs here) used to be a resource requiring management. Now they're mostly so short that we have a lot of (if not all) of those skills up at any given time. That means that our overall "cooldown" power level is higher. And as a lot of experienced creeps can attest to, fighting Luc when he has the right cooldowns, is VERY different than when he explodes due to lack of the right ones...

Ideally I'll fall in the middle of what used to be no cooldowns vs cooldowns...but time will tell.

----

Note: This mindset is EXACTLY why I get frustrated by mechanics, and playstyle decisions that abuse this open PvMP/dynamic/chaotic setting we have in the moors.

Me riding up on 6 creeps and getting my rear handed to me is one thing.
Me being actively hunted by 6 creeps for hours on end...that's another.

Me riding around and finding a greenie farming hobbits in HH and blowing him up is one thing.
Me camping one location looking for greenies only is another (although ineffective and dumb for a non-stealth class anyhow...heh).

I LOVE that we have variance across multiple dimensions.
I despise play choices and mechanics that encourage abusing that variance.

Anyhow...that's my opinion. I doubt we'll ever see my vision of the game, but my desires do skew how I view change, and how I view my play choices in the moors.

[Baslin]

You mean justice, empathy, and honesty aren't optimal traits?

[Sssnapdragon]

Contrary to popular belief there IS a correct way to build and play your character, anything else is suboptimal. The burden of choice seems to be a big problem here, as I seem people running around with suboptimal specs/gear choices all the time. Then you get massive QQ about how OP creeps are, when in reality a properly built freep should dominate any creep.

So really the point is if you are Vinns running around the moors for fun at level 52 then that's awesome. Just don't come to the forums and whine about it (which Vin never does, I just wanted to use him as my example).

You mean justice, empathy, and honesty aren't optimal traits?

LOL I prefer Domination, Masochism, and Egotism in the moors....don't all minstrels????

[Umbrarg]

I want to trait all Fluffy, Playful, and max out Snuggly, but it appears Turbine won't let me

Love & Hugs

Fluffy Hithy

[Thane9]

Luc is hung-up on the idea that his "liberal YEARS" of playing should mean something to everyone else in the moors. The problem is that a relatively new rank 5 reaver doesn't care how long you have been in the moors, or what rank you are, or WHO you are...they just want to engage you in battle, your skills vs. their skills.

It's NOT a barrier to people having fun in the moors to have more and less difficult situations to overcome. This is where you miss my point. I do feel the same when I play my lower ranked reaver, I would feel the same if I ever had a max level Freep to bring out in another class.

That R5 reaver should know he's not going to match up to a R12 very often. And he should adjust accordingly. Just as a R12 reaver should know he's going to match up VERY well against nearly any freep and adjust his expectations accordingly.

Your proposal sounds like you'd like a L10 to be able to run the new Dragon instance. Why should someone at L10 miss out on all that new material? WOW, only an elitist snob would suggest a L10 shouldn't be able to have FUN in the new zones right???

Kynji is absolutely right, the moors is the place to run around, eat Freeps, have fun, and maybe nibble a muffin or two.

If it's not fun, there's no point.

I believe the fun...and this is MY OPINION only....comes from the complexity of the moors, the variances are what make PvMP BETTER than all other PvP games. That's the fun to me. Anyone can and will disagree...but that's what I have found fun out there for all this time. It's why I keep playing.

Well for freeps it can be lack of player skill, lack of gear, lack of knowledge, or an incorrect build.

I've noticed on landroval, it seems to be all of the above.

Contrary to popular belief there IS a correct way to build and play your character, anything else is suboptimal. The burden of choice seems to be a big problem here, as I seem people running around with suboptimal specs/gear choices all the time. Then you get massive QQ about how OP creeps are, when in reality a properly built freep should dominate any creep.

Creeps are very linear in their design, there are not many skills so you can't really pull a bad rotation in that regard. Their traits are also very limited, with the exception of corruptions so you can't mess up here either. They have no gear so their stats are given to them at the get-go so essentially they are well geared and traited no matter what.

Freeps on the other hand, are far more complex. They have at least three full hot bars of abilities, some of which are not worth using, they have three different trait lines, and 7 legendary traits to choose from. Not to mention 15+ slots of gear to optimize, as well as two legendary weapons to max out and tailor to their spec.

This is the reason the results are all over the place, couple it with a lack of player skill (which landroval is notorious for) and you have your answer.

This post reeks of metagaming. If you follow it to its logical conclusion then any player who doesn't instantly join the entire population of their side (creep or freep) and proceed to win via overwhelming numbers is an idiot. In fact I'll take it one step further. Once it's established that one side has fewer players than the other side, they should all immediately log out until such a time that they can gather numbers in excess of their opposing side.

Why bother spending all the time and effort spec'ing and gearing if you're not just going to go that extra step to insure you never lose??

---

Anyhow that ridiculousness aside, I will say this. I chose Champion because I want to dps. I don't want to be a tank. You won't see me in Glory out there, it's just not going to happen. EVEN IF being in Glory would be insta-win in any fight. One can claim that's dumb...or makes me a bad player...or means I should have zero imput to what the power levels of a Champion are relative to other classes. But that's how I choose to play the game.

And as for the last dig at the end about Landy being notorious for "lack of player skill". I'd suggest you keep those snide comments to yourself. Or put your opinion where your words are and bring it on. I'm always looking for creeps to fight and I'm not hard to find. OH yeah...that's right...if I win I'm just an OP freep...but if I lose, then I'm a poor player who didn't spec/gear correctly. Heh...never mind.

[The_Observer]

You know the area better, you know which skills to use and when, you have the right pots. You know which areas to avoid getting ganked, how to communicate in OOC effectively, what acronyms mean, how to target assist, why you shouldn't bother targeting guards/defilers, where map in points are, which cliffs you can jump off of, which keeps are red/blue (and what that means) and a whole slew of other skills your experience has gotten you.

Why would you want to add even more artificial barriers for people just trying the moors out that may eventually be great comrades/opponents? If we want Turbine to improve our playground, we need more people to enjoy it.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

[Olympic]

How on earth is that post reeking of metagaming or overwhelming numbers? There isn't a single reference, overt or implied, to that effect.

The post is about how people build their characters.

[soccercake7]

The post is about how people build their characters.

A post on how people build their characters would be more objective.

I.E. Some LMs trait blinding flash because it's an interrupt that is just as good as a champ's clobber. However, I don't trait that because I rarely come across a defiler/WL to fight (check my slayers deeds) and it's not worth the trait.

No, what Luc sees is a 'build your character this way or you're an idiot'. Which is what I see too.

[Olympic]

A post on how people build their characters would be more objective.

I.E. Some LMs trait blinding flash because it's an interrupt that is just as good as a champ's clobber. However, I don't trait that because I rarely come across a defiler/WL to fight (check my slayers deeds) and it's not worth the trait.

No, what Luc sees is a 'build your character this way or you're an idiot'. Which is what I see too.

I didn't see it that way. /shrug

But using your example, when you do come across a defiler/WL and for some reason they defeat you...do you then claim that the LM is an underpowered class and that creeps are all OP?

I mean you might, but I don't know that you do.

[Baslin]

Two things:

1) Luc, play a game where gear is incredible for high ranks (WAR) and let me know how you feel about it. RR80s SMASH RR40s due to the gear differential...and it is not good PvP. Good PvP is skill-based.

2) Using an optimal spec is not meta-gaming. It's playing to your character's maximum potential.

Example:
Traiting Honesty is sub-optimal, as there are numerous other FAR more useful traits.

[Sssnapdragon]

That R5 reaver should know he's not going to match up to a R12 very often. And he should adjust accordingly. Just as a R12 reaver should know he's going to match up VERY well against nearly any freep and adjust his expectations accordingly.

Fair enough. You come out for a challenge that you can (barely) overcome. I come out for fun. I don't think rank should mean anything but time played in the moors, and you think it should mean skill. Unfortunately, it just doesn't right now for many people. I follow it to the logical conclusion that rank shouldn't mean ANYTHING but a title/symbol, and you follow it to the other logical conclusion that rank means time played and information learned, thereby it should mean MORE. (At least, that's what I am inferring, forgive me if I'm wrong).

Your proposal sounds like you'd like a L10 to be able to run the new Dragon instance. Why should someone at L10 miss out on all that new material? WOW, only an elitist snob would suggest a L10 shouldn't be able to have FUN in the new zones right???

Don't be silly I'm talking about a single zone only, which I interpret as intended to be different and follow different rules than the PvE zone. PvE is designed as a reward zone...do a quest, get a shiny. Rinse, repeat. I feel that the PvP zone is and always will be different. I understand others do not share my opinion, but I like that the zone is different.



Hassle (not Fell, I know who is in charge), I took that post to mean that some people play SUBSTANTIALLY under-geared and under-traited. I probably qualify as one of them because I wear a dress instead of armor in the moors. Therefore if I say that minstrels are totally underpowered and lame in the moors, you have to take it in the context that I am not playing to my full armored ability. Tarbosh pointed that out with minstrels too--some minstrels complain about their abilities but then they do very well----you have to take playstyle, traits, gear, etc. into account if you're REALLY going to draw conclusions about class vs. class match up. I don't think that there is one and only one build...but rather that some of us choose not to use our best build for our abilities.

[insanityspetals]

And as for the last dig at the end about Landy being notorious for "lack of player skill". I'd suggest you keep those snide comments to yourself.

Seconded, please do.

A post on how people build their characters would be more objective.

I.E. Some LMs trait blinding flash because it's an interrupt that is just as good as a champ's clobber. However, I don't trait that because I rarely come across a defiler/WL to fight (check my slayers deeds) and it's not worth the trait.

No, what Luc sees is a 'build your character this way or you're an idiot'. Which is what I see too.

I agree with Fell here. I took that post as rather inflammatory. Maybe it's because we're LMs and we're a wonderfully variable class - there are many, many builds to choose from and ways to play that in my mind are all effective, if you trait right for what you're looking for and HAVE FUN. It doesn't mean you're optimal in every situation; indeed, "optimal" is a high subjective term here. High morale or power pool? Support or DPS? Solo or grouped? CC mixed in? How about some napalm? How do you define success, in terms of describing optimal? Most fun? Most flexibility adapting to situations? Most wins? Least deaths? Best fights?

Saying that there are optimal builds (edit: bowing here to Kynji's point - there are obvious undergeared/lvl/choice builds. However, I don't see anyone of that sort complaining here) and plays are lacking skill is just as vexing as ranting about people complaining one side being OP or underpowered and turning it around based on the situation. It is just as obnoxious to start calling people out on it, accusing others, and getting into a mudslinging fight. Also, as everything seems to lean on subjectivity it is all pointless and we'll always continue to get annoyed with each other for not agreeing because we all have our own unique ideas and outlooks!

... derp.

[Olympic]

Interesting points of view here, I don't see anything in that guy's post even close to a few of the interpretations of it lol...seems to me he pointed out the obvious for those that might not realize it.

To even suggest there isn't optimal builds is perplexing. Of course there is! Pointing out that some players play better than others is offensive? Inflammatory? Have you read some of the other posts in this thread? THAT one is inflammatory? lmao...

I find it even more obnoxious when people scream overpowered or go on the monster play forums, server pvp forums etc, and talk about how OP creeps are when in actuality they just aren't very good.

How's that?

[insanityspetals]

Interesting points of view here, I don't see anything in that guy's post even close to a few of the interpretations of it lol...seems to me he pointed out the obvious for those that might not realize it.

To even suggest there isn't optimal builds is perplexing. Of course there is! Pointing out that some players play better than others is offensive? Inflammatory? Have you read some of the other posts in this thread? THAT one is inflammatory? lmao...

Obviously we react differently Nor do I think you want me to write a post going through every possibly inflammatory remark made in these past nine pages.
The implication that there is an optimal build for your class annoyed me because it is the assumption that someone is judging you on being optimal or not based on their idea of optimal, versus whatever you might be built for as there are many, many different builds possible and ideas of what one considers optimal. I could go on and on, but like I said.. it's subjective, as are our reactions. So there's not much point.
The umbrella statement about Landy skills is offensive to me, due to my Landy pride, not the fact that some players play better than others - unless one decides to start pointing fingers, for which there is no need.

I find it even more obnoxious when people scream overpowered or go on the monster play forums, server pvp forums etc, and talk about how OP creeps are when in actuality they just aren't very good.
How's that?

Okay. I'm glad we cleared it up: you find that more annoying and I find something else more annoying.

[Olympic]

I do get what you are saying Meli, let me elaborate just a bit on MY interpretation of "optimal".

If you are a healing class and aren't built to maximize your healing role, then you aren't optimal.

Take your LM...if you want your LM to play the role of CC, then you build for DPS, then complain that you don't do much CC...to me that is on the player, its not the class. They aren't building "optimally" for what they wish to do.

Then there are the general traits, skills, etc that any particular class should probably have. If they aren't making use of them, but then complaining about their class, I say if they built "optimally" they might do better.

We have all played a class at that was "bad" at some point regardless of what you did with it. I'm talking more of the differences in how different players seem to be able to do more with the same class than others, yet they play the same class right? Why is one minstrel able to shred everyone in sight, and another complaining about their class? That IS about build, and to an important extent, knowing how to play their class in a given situation.

An RK goes through all the high-end 12 - 24 man PvE raids and performs like a superstar, then goes to the moors and gets destroyed in 6 seconds. That is the player, not the class. See the point I'm making?

[insanityspetals]

I do get what you are saying Meli, let me elaborate just a bit on MY interpretation of "optimal".

If you are a healing class and aren't built to maximize your healing role, then you aren't optimal.

Take your LM...if you want your LM to play the role of CC, then you build for DPS, then complain that you don't do much CC...to me that is on the player, its not the class. They aren't building "optimally" for what they wish to do.

Then there are the general traits, skills, etc that any particular class should probably have. If they aren't making use of them, but then complaining about their class, I say if they built "optimally" they might do better.

We have all played a class at that was "bad" at some point regardless of what you did with it. I'm talking more of the differences in how different players seem to be able to do more with the same class than others, yet they play the same class right? Why is one minstrel able to shred everyone in sight, and another complaining about their class? That IS about build, and to an important extent, knowing how to play their class in a given situation.

An RK goes through all the high-end 12 - 24 man PvE raids and performs like a superstar, then goes to the moors and gets destroyed in 6 seconds. That is the player, not the class. See the point I'm making?

Yessir I was considering it as an outsider's judgement, instead. Cheers!

[TheBigMenace]

This post reeks of metagaming. If you follow it to its logical conclusion then any player who doesn't instantly join the entire population of their side (creep or freep) and proceed to win via overwhelming numbers is an idiot. In fact I'll take it one step further. Once it's established that one side has fewer players than the other side, they should all immediately log out until such a time that they can gather numbers in excess of their opposing side.

Why bother spending all the time and effort spec'ing and gearing if you're not just going to go that extra step to insure you never lose??

---

Anyhow that ridiculousness aside, I will say this. I chose Champion because I want to dps. I don't want to be a tank. You won't see me in Glory out there, it's just not going to happen. EVEN IF being in Glory would be insta-win in any fight. One can claim that's dumb...or makes me a bad player...or means I should have zero imput to what the power levels of a Champion are relative to other classes. But that's how I choose to play the game.

And as for the last dig at the end about Landy being notorious for "lack of player skill". I'd suggest you keep those snide comments to yourself. Or put your opinion where your words are and bring it on. I'm always looking for creeps to fight and I'm not hard to find. OH yeah...that's right...if I win I'm just an OP freep...but if I lose, then I'm a poor player who didn't spec/gear correctly. Heh...never mind.

You seem very, very confused.

Tarbosh asked why results vs. freeps are so varied, I gave an honest answer. There was no personal attacks made against you, although you seemed to take it as such. However rather than ranting about metagaming and derailing the thread how about you offer counterpoints so we may discuss our ideas in a well ordered fashion.

As to your question, I will answer it quite plainly so you can understand. Speccing and gearing correctly is your choice, however there are many benefits in doing so.

1. You made a comment on how you would like to feel more powerful than a low ranked player, you may do so, speccing and gearing correctly will help you accomplish this.

2. You made a comment on how you would like to 2v1, speccing and gearing correctly would allow you to do so, 3v1's are also possible in this situation (proper cool down management may be required in this case).

3. You made a comment on how you would like to go into a 1v1 situation and have an equal chance to win, speccing optimally will allow you to do this (and without cooldowns mind you).

Again no personal attacks are being made here, I am listing your goals and a way of possibly achieving them.

[Thane9]

You seem very, very confused.

Tarbosh asked why results vs. freeps are so varied, I gave an honest answer. There was no personal attacks made against you, although you seemed to take it as such. However rather than ranting about metagaming and derailing the thread how about you offer counterpoints so we may discuss our ideas in a well ordered fashion.

As to your question, I will answer it quite plainly so you can understand. Speccing and gearing correctly is your choice, however there are many benefits in doing so.

1. You made a comment on how you would like to feel more powerful than a low ranked player, you may do so, speccing and gearing correctly will help you accomplish this.

2. You made a comment on how you would like to 2v1, speccing and gearing correctly would allow you to do so, 3v1's are also possible in this situation (proper cool down management may be required in this case).

3. You made a comment on how you would like to go into a 1v1 situation and have an equal chance to win, speccing optimally will allow you to do this (and without cooldowns mind you).

Again no personal attacks are being made here, I am listing your goals and a way of possibly achieving them.

I disagree fundamentally that there is a "correct" way to spec, and that all other ways are just not valid.

Plain and simple as that.

I also take personally comments about Landy being notorious for lacking player skill. I've seen this talk before and personally I've never seen it backed up.

[roysterer]

I also take personally comments about Landy being notorious for lacking player skill. I've seen this talk before and personally I've never seen it backed up.

I've never actually played on another server (well except Belegaer for like 5 minutes), but I feel like one of our ex-pats would let us know if we really sucked that badly.

[Thane9]

Just to clarify my statement about Rank = power level.

I played WAR...multiple toons, max level. But I'm not talking about WAR I'm talking about what I like about LotRO and would like to see more of.

---

Anyhow,

I'm not talking about R12 fighting a R0 = one button explode faceroll win.

What I AM talking about is that there should be a noticable measure of power increase from rank "tier" to rank. I.e., R0-4 should be fundamentally challenged vs higher. I think this has been true creepside for a very very long time and I think they should've implemented similar power curves for freepside ages ago.

R5 should be a nice "median" spot where the player will have some solid matchups from 4 to 9 but probably be more and more of an underdog straight up as 9 is approached.

R9 should be a first tier "finished" point. Where most players on both sides cap with respect to any new ability/bonus etc.

R10-15 should be incremental flat boosts, such as morale, defense etc...just getting progressively tougher.

That's actually pretty close to what creepside has had for ages. And I've called for Freep rewards to be used in a way to create that power curve for freepside for years...in fact BEFORE the first freep rewards were even introduced.

I think it'd be good for the game. I think it'd be good for providing more varied and dynamic situations. I think it'd serve as a nice carrot for advancement.

I understand no one wants new players to be insta-turned off and have them walk away. I agree. But I also think there's nothing wrong with a death count over 5000. And people coming to the moors for the long haul should be exposed to that fact.

Just last night I was in a group for a 6-man instance. We tore through it, no real synergy, no real coordination, just spamming and rolling mobs.

Then we got to the end boss. We fought for a long time...and then wiped.

No biggie, I think, Lets just reevaluate our targets, talk about CJ order and type, and go back and kill them this time.

Before I was even released one player had already dropped group.

Who was that player? The one who doesn't play in the moors.

IMHO it takes a type to handle the moors. I'd rather people learn and accept that at R0 than invest time and effort only to hate the game later on.

Not to mention the hard cold truth. We really don't need too many more players on EITHER side in the moors, not unless Turbine does something magical with their hardware and/or possibly their core game engine.

Sorry for getting everyone riled up. I just have a different perspective with what I enjoy in the moors I guess. See, I don't really care if the Creep/Freep power balance is 1:1 or 2:1 or 1:2. Or ANY combination in between...as long as moving around the map and engaging when possible is ENCOURAGED.

Why?

Because I'll find a way to find good fights regardless. If it means looking for solo creeps who have pulled an NPC because creeps are all of a sudden too much for me to solo, fine. If it means hoping for a duo of creeps to fight because I'm more powerful than them fine. As long as what it means is there will be a VARIETY of situations, fights, locations, mechanics, etc in which to have those combats I'm happy.

NOTHING is worse to me than a skirmish for example. It's static location, static mobs, static level of power, static tactics.

But the moors, there we can have ANYTHING happen. I like that.

The key is playing in that setting, and embracing it WITHOUT being a jerk. Tricky sometimes, more tricky for some than others...and definitely something I keep in the front of my mind when I play. Believe it or not.

[dinin42]

So really the point is if you are Vinns running around the moors for fun at level 52 then that's awesome. Just don't come to the forums and whine about it (which Vin never does, I just wanted to use him as my example).



LOL I prefer Domination, Masochism, and Egotism in the moors....don't all minstrels????

I waved at Kynj in Dunland......true story.


...And now back to your regularly scheduled Mechanics/balance/player skill issues.