They buff creeps, and buff creeps and buff creeps...

[Thane9]

And yet still some of the highest ranked players on the server have to:

a> Run away when encountered solo.
b> Call out for help from other of the highest ranked players...sometimes the highest ranked player.
c> Refuse to fight even when in the midst of a whole camp of their friendly npcs.

Pathetic. Picking up sticks for infamy would be more of a challenge.

So here's my question...

Exactly how powerful does Turbine need to make you before you stop this garbage play and actually engage in PvMP rather than call outs, map-ins, and ganking?

Just curious. 20K morale? 50K? 99% BPE?

Whatever it is, Turbine please just give it to them. I'd rather fight an unbeatable foe than not fight a bunch of losers who just want to gank.

[Jamers]

I hate to say it Luc, because I'm sure I will get flamed, but you might want to consider a different server.

Landroval is a fantastic server for many things, but there are a number of servers out there where it's substantially easier to find fights, particularly as a soloer or small grouper.

Seriously, no offense to Landy or anyone on it. Just my opinion after playing on about half the US servers at this point.

[Thane9]

---

If this happened rarely, or even some fraction of the time I'd vehemently disagree with you, but it's so common that it's just ridiculous.

I don't subscribe to this win at all costs nothing matters but the points approach. I never will. And it's just so unbelievably sad that so many people do.

As for moving servers, no can do. I play LotRO with real life friends I don't get to see too often, and although they don't PvMP much if at all, we're not moving.

Not to mention I really do like a lot of people on Landy. Even the ones who often don't like each other, or sometimes even don't like me. I'm a proud landrovillian, and I'm not leaving but this nonsense of using numbers to fight just at SOME point has to stop. See a freep, fight him. See a creep, fight him. Don't like your odds? Get out of the moors. But this continual ganking and calling for help is just getting old. Real old.

Editing to add...Shima, you know as well as I do that some of the worst offenders of this style of play are transferrs from other servers. I won't name names, but we all know who they are, when they came here, and their ranks. They RELISH in ganking, mapping in and zerging solos and small groups.

And it's sad, because high ranks should come with a little respect for the accomplishment. Instead I just think less and less of their accomplishements knowing full well how they did it.

[InnerChild77]

A few days back I spotted 3 low rank reavers farming cows, I back off a second to see if there was anything else but when they saw me they ran across the river to OC. Same day a Defiler was using a cow to kill An so thought I could catch him with no power (2x my morale) and he ran across to OC fearing me the whole way.

Some creeps fight but I think the lure of easy infamy/reknown is stronger then the need to fight for some players.

The only analogy I can think of is if a bears finds a easy way to get food (dumpsters or garbage) then it is hard to get them to hunt again.

[ThromOS]

I'm really new to Monster play and my reaver is Happy to try to jump anything that moves
This has not turned out really well (burglers are tricky little creatures) but it is fun and that is the point.
Maybe it's because my main is a Champ and likes to jump in the midst of the fray and reavers are a nice dps type.

I will have to try PvMP on Landy.

[Starkraft]

Not everyone calls everything out, there are alot of creeps out these days, random map ins and paths being crossed is gonna be very common place.

Also expecting people to play a certain way, unless you have direct control over them ie: leading them in a kin or raid, is unrealistic. If you and others stop expecting things from people, you wont get so disappointed and upset.

[Reichpapers]

I've adapted to a new playstyle. Instead of hoping to catch solo creeps, I now play the "run away from the trackers game". Oddly enough, it is entertaining.

[Three_cows]

Luc plays a freep, so he speaks about "creeps". I am however sure that if you ask him he would agree that this is a "player" phenomenon and not isolated to a particular side.


Just thought I would throw that in there before someone used it to tear up his gripe.

[roysterer]

A few days back I spotted 3 low rank reavers farming cows, I back off a second to see if there was anything else but when they saw me they ran across the river to OC. Same day a Defiler was using a cow to kill An so thought I could catch him with no power (2x my morale) and he ran across to OC fearing me the whole way.

Some creeps fight but I think the lure of easy infamy/reknown is stronger then the need to fight for some players.

The only analogy I can think of is if a bears finds a easy way to get food (dumpsters or garbage) then it is hard to get them to hunt again.

I won't 1v1 on my defiler or BA, I'll run. But I don't think that's a problem. I've had players of all classes run from my warg and I don't get upset about it. If you don't think you can beat me, but think you can get away that's a legitimate thing to do. And if you can't beat me by yourself, then it's fine to call in the cavalry. What upsets me is if they do fight, and it's relatively evenly matched....and then I get run over by the cavalry.

I recently found a player alone and attacked him, and I knew the whole time his raid was coming to kill me, but that was fine because I know he doesn't 1v1.

On the other hand, I've seen another call out solo freeps he was fighting, which is just uncool.

So, I guess, in summary, it's not reasonable to expect everyone to fight you 1v1 just because you've caught them alone, but it is reasonable to expect that people who do 1v1 will not ask for help in a 1v1.

[Thane9]

Not everyone calls everything out, there are alot of creeps out these days, random map ins and paths being crossed is gonna be very common place.

Also expecting people to play a certain way, unless you have direct control over them ie: leading them in a kin or raid, is unrealistic. If you and others stop expecting things from people, you wont get so disappointed and upset.

If this were an isolated incedent, or even SLIGHTLY not the norm I'd agree with this. But it happens FAR too often to be coincidence.

Please note before anyone assumes something about me. I EMBRACE the open PvMP map. I LOVE the uncertainty and the chaos and the randomness of what can and will happen.

What I despise is people who take advantage of that openness to remove all risk and only fight when they have overwhelming advantage...either by zerging against a pop-buffed force, by calling out map-ins for a solo, or by purposefully baiting and ganking.

Luc plays a freep, so he speaks about "creeps". I am however sure that if you ask him he would agree that this is a "player" phenomenon and not isolated to a particular side.


Just thought I would throw that in there before someone used it to tear up his gripe.

Creeps have advantages to displaying this kind of behaviour. Maps, much higher tracking %, and much higher stealth/burrow %.

These facts enable creeps to behave in these ways far easier than freeps.

That being said, you are correct. I despise the behaviours regardless of side. But I can only really speak to what I experience daily...which is obviously creep behaviour.

[Starkraft]

I know you said you despise these things but there is nothing you can do soo....Expecting people not to zerg against a pop-buffed force, not call out map-ins for a solo, or not purposefully bait and gank; setting yourself up for disappointment, specially with some of the new people over there.

and yeah random map ins and paths being crossed is gonna be very common place, so its not gonna be isolated, its gonna be the norm.

So add this stuff to what you embrace out there

[EATENG300]

...I EMBRACE the open PvMP map. I LOVE the uncertainty and the chaos and the randomness of what can and will happen...

Yea, I don't think you embrace (much less "LOVE") it as much as you claim. Those that truly do, don't complain about:

...people who take advantage of that openness to remove all risk and only fight when they have overwhelming advantage...either by zerging against a pop-buffed force, by calling out map-ins for a solo, or by purposefully baiting and ganking...

It comes with the territory.

[PapaDarsh]

And yet still some of the highest ranked players on the server have to:

a> Run away when encountered solo.
b> Call out for help from other of the highest ranked players...sometimes the highest ranked player.
c> Refuse to fight even when in the midst of a whole camp of their friendly npcs.

Pathetic. Picking up sticks for infamy would be more of a challenge.

So here's my question...

Exactly how powerful does Turbine need to make you before you stop this garbage play and actually engage in PvMP rather than call outs, map-ins, and ganking?

Just curious. 20K morale? 50K? 99% BPE?

Whatever it is, Turbine please just give it to them. I'd rather fight an unbeatable foe than not fight a bunch of losers who just want to gank.

Here is the problem Luc you pick what fights are good for you and complain about the ones you feel like complaining about. I ran across you on my ranked reaver in grothum a few weeks ago. Waited until you finished of the npc you were on and then attacked you while you ran away jumping of the cliff and ran some more. Then you died while trying to run away even some more.
Usually you are solo running around the map looking for 1v1s but as of lately I have seen you with the freep raid so to make this thread is kind of out of place. I was running around with Gii last night when you fought him and he didn’t call you out at all we just happened to travel across the spot you were fighting and I had a feeling you would say something today because of what happened. We all need to realize the map is small and solo fights will usually get interrupted.
At the same time PvP on other servers ARE better (I have been playing on them) and it seems here we have some good fight clubs and some good RvR battles but thats it. Oh well its just a game right?

[InnerChild77]

I totally agree with you Toothless I too find myself running alot more then I like, I am just finding with the changes I can't stand up to a ranked creep or one who has bought ranked skills but I am learning.

[Sssnapdragon]

Luc, you confuse me terribly. Here's what I know:

You and I have been in a lot of freep groups together recently. Freeps have been playing terribly together---I would think you can agree with me on that, if I recall you were actually rather annoyed the other night at how our group was playing (strung out, not together, no support). We haven't been a tightly knit unit in any of the open groups we've been in...we have under-geared freeps, freeps under level 75, and not enough people playing support. I don't think I've been a part of a single freep group recently that played to their best abilities. I have been in creep groups that were well run...obviously the freeps are going to get rolled when we play poorly and they play well.

But what I also know is that I've been on my creep since the update and had you roll up on me, stun me, and kill me before I even have time to turn on names and see who's cutting me to ribbons. I'm not complaining about that--I too enjoy the randomness that is our moors map. But seriously, you want to complain about being called out and mapped in on, but you want to get away with ganking a rank 3 BA trying to pick up stones FIVE TIMES IN A ROW, and then complain about how creeps are playing poorly? REALLY? If you embrace the map and you like the randomness, then continue to sneak up on unsuspecting creeps and slaughter them. But also expect and accept that creeps who have no chance against you are going to warn other solo creeps in OOC that you're around, and all of the creeps who are inclined to fight you are going to swarm in.

You said:

Exactly how powerful does Turbine need to make you before you stop this garbage play and actually engage in PvMP rather than call outs, map-ins, and ganking?

1. See above. Next time I'm on my freep and I see a group of creeps (or even a single) chasing after you, would you prefer I not call it out and warn you? If I'm at TR and a creep shows up solo, should I not mention it? What if I can't kill the creep? When is it okay to announce in OOC? I can't follow the arbitrary, situational rules.

2. Creeps have maps. They're going to use them. Freeps have horses. They're going to use them. Until the mechanics of the game are changed, expect people to use what is at their disposal. This includes DP buffs, Store items, maps, horses, potions, ranger/troll play, and more.

3. Ganking. What exactly is ganking, anyway? Attacking an unsuspecting player who has no chance against you? Then you do it too. I've done it. We've all done it. If you mean having a large number of creeps show up for a solo, well, I think it's coordinated far less often than you may think. But again, this is part of the randomness of the map. We can't have it both ways. Not with the mechanics we have been given. Our PvP is more suited for larger groups clashing than it is for solo play. I'm definitely not saying solo play doesn't have a place, I enjoy it too, I'm just saying that you can never EXPECT solo play on an open map.

[PapaDarsh]

Luc, you confuse me.

Well said
+Rep

[Fraegster]

I've adapted to a new playstyle. Instead of hoping to catch solo creeps, I now play the "run away from the trackers game". Oddly enough, it is entertaining.

After a bit of that last night a couple of us stopped after saying in VOIP "you know he is probably finding this a hell of a lot more fun than we are, and are chances of actually catching him are pretty much Nil."

[AdarinOuest]

I'm sorry you don't respect me as a player, Luc. I can't recall the last time I encountered you and much less the last time I encountered you solo, but you have to understand that most people are deluded if they think they stand a chance against you in a 1v1. I know you come on here and talk a big game about how you are threatened all the time, but long story short, a 1v1 with you is only something I'm going to look for if I want a swift trip to the rez circle.

In the end, I don't adhere to your playstyle and insulting me isn't going to change that.

1.) I am out there for fun. I'm not out there to challenge myself or get my jollies off of waggling my mouse around a bunch and getting motion sickness from the screen flying like crazy. If I find a soloer and my group isn't around I try to find some nice corner preferably with a lot of friendly NPCs and try to stay alive while they take you down so I can get back to group vs. group fighting.

2.) I'm out there to win by any means necessary. I'm not interested in "codes of honor" or the like. If you kill me it's because I'm a creep so unless I have a massive lead on you or I'm within sight of friendly NPCs you're going to slow me down enough to finish me off. It's not fun for me to just get beat on and then earn a memorial on the 1v1 thread. That's why we're constantly telling creeps to go with a friend. Why should we hand you renown? I'd just once like you to come out and say honestly how much threat a single average rank creep is vs. you. Unless they are amazing, I'm betting it's .01%.

3.) Lemons to lemonade. Luc, given that you are a wrecking machine on 95% of the solo creeps out there 99% of the time why would they not call for help or try to win in the fastest way they know how. I know that if you or any other freep at your level ganks me (because given your power vs. mine that's really what it is) I'm going to call you out when I see you because A) more infamy for others means more powerful guys fighting on my side and B) you just beat me... you want me to just let you get away with it? If our ongoing posting history has shown anything, I'm logical and fair, but I don't just sit there, take it, and walk away.

Anyway, all the upset over how things turn out always gets to me. I had my time when I blamed the world for how things turned out and the "cheap" tactics used against me, but in the end it wasn't the other guys fault that I lost. They just had what it took that day. As you and (progressively fewer) others know, that didn't turn out so well for me when it came to social interactions. Little secret? I'm much happier now that I just play instead of fret so much over winning exactly how I want to win. I don't think I could imagine what it would be like for me if I had placed strict rules on myself like so many others.

Keep the faith Luc. There are like three guys that go around out there solo and fight... focus on the positive or change. It's all you can do b/c you have to admit that others are just not going to play exactly how you want them to.

[Jamers]

What's funny is if someone not named Luc had posted a similar thread that simply stated:

A lot of people run from fights.

then most people would probably agree. The core point of his post is accurate and has been for a long time, in my experience.

Landroval has always been a large fight dominated server. There have been occasions when small grouping and soloing have been popular for more than a handful on either side, but it's not consistent.

Luc, and others like him, are in an unfortunate position because they have a lot of stock in the server, but the playstyle just doesn't suit them. Telling him to 'get used to it' or 'reduce expectations' is a useless response. I distinctly remember wandering around in the 'moors on Landy on both sides for hours and getting no reasonable fights throughout my time here. There's nothing about attitude or expectation adjustment that makes that enjoyable. At that point, you either have to join a group or a raid to engage in any kind of meaningful pvp. That lack of playstyle variety was a pretty large factor in my decision to transfer my freep.

[Gillianrial]

At that point, you either have to join a group or a raid to engage in any kind of meaningful pvp.

QFT.

Currently, raiding is the only option for those of us who prefer to solo or small group but want to continue to play on Landroval. There are few small fights and practically zero actual soloers (speaking as a freep finding creep soloers), but perhaps it will change again in the future. Until then, there is really only one playstyle on this server. It's up to each one of us to either go with the flow or don't, and accept the consequences. Solo/small group play is riskier and rarer. We either deal with that fact and work around it, adapt to the ways we can still play without it being totally un-fun, or g-t-f-o. *shrug*

[tykoshi]

The irony is that this is another of those arguments that goes to both sides (which Luc readily acknowledges). How many times have I or other creeps tried to engage a freep solo only to have them run off into the NPCs or outsprint or what have you. And, yep, I can find it downright aggravating too.

Do I run from solo fights? Not usually. Sometimes I get a slight streak of spite and refuse to give certain freeps the grace of inf from my seared fur. But those times are the exception and not the norm. 2v1s I'm apt to try to avoid more often, but I'll go down fighting with little reservation. Higher odds than that, you can bet my furry butt is gonna try to get away. Getting ganked sucks.

Does that mean I don't jump in? Well, of course I do (unless I know it's a 1v1 - I respect those). It's a war zone out there. While I try to treat most freeps and creeps with respect, I'm out there to nom on freeps.

As for calling out solos? I will usually say X is out and about, but not give location. Again, there are exceptions. And then, if Freep Y hands me my tail more than a couple times in a few minutes, then maybe I'll call it out and let someone else take a crack. Burgs almost ALWAYS get a call out, but as a courtesy to my fellow creeps.

I know some of the newer creeps don't subscribe to what seem some older Moors protocols. There have been repeated calls to not call out solos, not camp GV, ad infinitum. Right now, as an up and coming raid leader, I've chosen to put my energy into increasing how creep groups coordinate. Sometimes, you pick the battles that matter to you.

[subadar]

if you want 1v1 so bad why not just fight club ? what good does roaming the map complaining that *this is not how i'd like it to be* gonna do?

[Arvaen]

if you want 1v1 so bad why not just fight club ? what good does roaming the map complaining that *this is not how i'd like it to be* gonna do?

1. Luc's not very fond of what he might call "Meta-Gaming."
2. There's a huge difference between a fight club and a random 1v1.

If you're gonna run from a fight, do it before we start burning CDs. Otherwise you've just wasted both your time as well as mine.

[Sssnapdragon]

What's funny is if someone not named Luc had posted a similar thread that simply stated:

A lot of people run from fights.

then most people would probably agree. The core point of his post is accurate and has been for a long time, in my experience.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that point. Freeps flee the moors when someone even mentions blight in OOC. I've seen freeps/creeps say that it's better to log off than try to play on a red/blue map. Yesterday a defiler ran in terror from me (and I KNOW he would have beaten me, lol). There's a thin line between staying to mount a defense, and allowing the enemy to roll over you with no opposition. Everyone makes their own choice. Some people prefer to live. Some prefer to stay and fight. Some make the decision situationally. I don't think any person is better or worse than another because they choose one of those options.

I don't run often. Yesterday in freep OOC someone said "I wonder if [Kynji] will continue to throw herself at raids now that there isn't really any benefit to creeps ranking." So---if you run you're considered a loser. If you stay to fight no matter the odds, you're considered a cheater. *shrug*

[Overtone]

Some creeps fight but I think the lure of easy infamy/reknown is stronger then the need to fight for some players.

Agree or disagree with Luc, the statement above is really the one that is most telling about both sides currently. Rank means nothing now. The new Freep rewards are nice, but there are equivalent rewards in the rest of PvE side of the game. The Moors is special because it is the only place in LOTRO where PvP can happen. If players don't come to the zone to fight, then ### are they there for?

I don't blame players for being confused. The Devs have turned the Moors into another giant PvE zone where PvP happens some of the time. At this point, players have to choose to fight. I know it can be tough. I know turning in a quest for renown/infamy is a lot easier than battling it out with your epeen on the line and possibly getting no renown or infamy at all, but that's PvMP, that's what makes the Moors worthwhile and different. That's what you will remember as fun...not questing for rank or gear.

If the players don't make it happen, nothing will; not a new map, not new rewards, not skills from the Turbine Store. Go to the Moors to get your fight on. The other things will follow; all the rank, all the points, all the skills, all the rewards. Fight hard and it will happen. Like magic...