Saying "exploit" is FotM

[Thane9]

This thread caught my eye and just wanted to comment:

Some classes can be "poorly played" and still win by design

And how does a poorly played champ ever apply those combat skills to an opponent? Or do you mean some classes can be poorly played and win against a poorly played opponent?

Sure, if ANY creep just stands still and lets a champ beat on them without using any skills of their own then the champ will win. Guess that makes champs OP???

[PurebloodWorg]

And how does a poorly played champ ever apply those combat skills to an opponent?

Sure, if ANY creep just stands still and lets a champ beat on them....

[whitefox1313]

*Extended version*

Assuming that HPS stand for Heal Per Second and we are talking about a solo defiler (stacking hots from 5 defilers would be a different story)==>

Fertile Slime: 350 morale average per 3 sec tick
Fungal Spores: 400 morale average per 5 sec tick
Fungal Bloom: 350 morale average per 5 sec tick
Efflorescence: 500 morale average per 3 sec tick (Group heal)
Single target heal: 3200 morale average per 30 sec period

Fertile Slime: 3500 morale average per 30 sec
Fungal Spores: 2400 morale average per 30 sec
Fungal Bloom: 2100 morale average per 30 sec
Efflorescence: 5000 morale average per 30 sec (Group heal)
Single target heal: 3200 morale average per 30 sec period

==>Total of 16200 morale gain per 30 sec or 540 (HPS) morale gain per seconds.

SUPER misleading.

You can cast the hots over and over on what? A 3s cooldown? To get the initial heal over and over.

You're also leaving out that initial heal as part of your math.

So in 15s it's really :

Fertile Slime: 350 + (350 morale average per 3 sec tick)
Fungal Spores: 400 + (400 morale average per 5 sec tick)
Fungal Bloom: 350+ (350 morale average per 5 sec tick)

Fertile Slime: 2100 morale average per 15 sec
Fungal Spores: 1600 morale average per 15 sec
Fungal Bloom: 1400 morale average per 15 sec

Or 5100 in 15s or 340/s

Add in just the 350 initial every 3 secs...and you're at: ~455.
Add in the other two...I'm not sure if they're at 3 or not...and I'm sure this number gets higher and higher.

Not to mention the fact that these are all cast on the run, Something that becomes critically important when considering how it matches up vs melee opponents.

Still no where near 1.5k...I'm not sure where that number was pulled. But when making a point you really shouldn't leave out information.

1-3 out of 5 skills have rather long induction that can be easily interupted by any damage received.

2-You failed at logic==> Whats the point to spam a skill to get the initial benefit when said initial benefit match 1 HoT value and NON-STACKABLE skill CD? Aside of draining your power for nothing?

3-I admit i didnt count the initial benefit into the calculation. Didnt thought it was necessary to consider all the little factors to show that we were overall very far from a 1500HPS healing output possible for defiler class. But even if we do, we are still around 600 HPS and this is with optimal conditions, meaning the defiler heal himself and do nothing else, which are not very likely to occur in any regular fighting situations.

Theres no point for a defiler to keep healing himself and not dps his opponant. He would only delay the inevitable outcome (defeat)

[Pallora]

I assure you there's no subtlety about sprint that I haven't worked out.

The Conan quote is still best, but this is definitely second. This is a keeper .

[TheBigMenace]

Quite viable or not, they're not all Champs. And when you say things like "Champions are" you're implying all champs.

They are a small minority and they're functionally equivelent to Guards. You'd be FAR more accurate saying "Tanks are" than "Champions are".

I don't understand why you are getting hung up over petty semantics. Just because you don't like a trait line it doesn't mean that if you trait that way you are no longer a champion, that is absurd. I believe that if you mouse over the character in game a little box pops up that has the character info on it. It says "Champion" not "Tank", regardless of how they are traited, so I'll go with that.

I assure you there's no subtlety about sprint that I haven't worked out. And a Champ's survival out on the map (not running back to the zergball) is VERY VERY small against most creep classes, and nearly ALL creep group combinations.

ITT: 2 bubbles, 40-50% mitigations, multiple AOE stuns, a self heal on a short cooldown, a self heal on a long cooldown, a 10-30% reduction in incoming damage cooldown and massive burst potential = Not survivable.

Of course the skill exists. I never said it doesn't exist, and frankly it's great in NPC areas.

But in a 1v1...it's a non-factor vs the type of opponent I'm discussing.

This is something I think people forget when performing any kind of analysis about creep v freep. Sure Champs have a 10s horn...but it's ONCE a fight, at most...and will be down for several minutes afterwards. Wargs for example can get off so many stuns etc in one fight that DR actually comes into play. ESPECIALLY if the warg plays their class to to their best ability and leaves and re-enters the fight over and over and over.

A warg pounces -> 5 second stun -> you pot
A warg tendon shreds -> 2.5 second stun -> wait it out he gets so free damage
A warg gets a CB pounce proc -> 1 second stun -> Lol?
The warg has a fear but DR's are such that you will almost instantly break out of it...

You Blow your horn 5 fervor -> 3 second stun -> They pot
You Blow your 10 second crafted -> 5 second stun -> GG SON

Similarly we can compare/contrast the Champ bubble and it's value and the warg bubble and it's ability to be used faster and more often.

A wargs bubble is 2k of effective healing every 60 seconds, 2000/60 = 33 HPS, I don't see how you are having trouble burning through this.

Similar comparisons exist with a LOT of skills vs many classes.

This is why I talk about against a well played, ranked, skill owning opponent.

You will never get any argument from me that Champs (or ANY freep class) have a huge advantage against a poorly played, or low ranked, or no-skill having creep.

But that's like comparing a R12 reaver to a low level, undergeared, or terribly played freep.

There are VERY few skills that enable a poorly played freep or creep to survive.
There are even fewer skills that enable a poorly played freep or creep to win.

I could use every single cooldown I have vs some creeps, and if I'm not effectively using my other skills I have no chance of winning. Because all that blowing those cooldowns do is give me more of a morale pool...if I'm not USING that morale pool to do something I'm dead. Dead at 7.5k effective morale, dead at 12k effective morale. No difference. And in fact, many of those skills are a HINDENCE to dealing damage...they have nasty skill latency around them, aren't insta-cast like a pot, and can really hurt one's overall ability to just kill the opponent...not to mention the extreme power crunch they can put a champ in if he's not managing power VERY well from strike one.

YMMV but considering an undergeared champ is having no problems soloing the super scary high ranked creeps without defensive CD's I don't think that the class can be considered underpowered by any definition. I may come off a little harsh here but some of the things you say are very questionable .

[Jamers]

YMMV but considering an undergeared champ is having no problems soloing the super scary high ranked creeps without defensive CD's I don't think that the class can be considered underpowered by any definition.

I wouldn't quite phrase the first part of it that way, because I take my fair share of defeats these days, but definitely agree that Champions are a class to be reckoned with out there.

[AdarinOuest]

+rep, sir.

[Anarionadama]

The Conan quote is still best, but this is definitely second. This is a keeper .

You're welcome

[dinin42]

I feel sad for the Ardour champs. All you guys talk about is Glory versus Fervour.....


Let's hear it for Ardour.....Yay Team.

[Jamers]

I feel sad for the Ardour champs. All you guys talk about is Glory versus Fervour.....


Let's hear it for Ardour.....Yay Team.

LOL! Charrk you slay me. And actually Ardour is wicked sweet... for True Heroics! If more creeps knew about that the complaining would increase quite a bit, heh.

P.S. New season... Wild looks good so far. Could this be the year?

P.P.S. Want Leino? Still not sure why we signed him. -.-

[dinin42]

LOL! Charrk you slay me. And actually Ardour is wicked sweet... for True Heroics! If more creeps knew about that the complaining would increase quite a bit, heh.

P.S. New season... Wild looks good so far. Could this be the year?

P.P.S. Want Leino? Still not sure why we signed him. -.-

We won an Epic 1 on 1 last night against the Nucks. As I always say...this be the year.

PS what the heck happened to miller a few games back, got chased in the 1st period....yikes.

PPS you'll grow to like Leino, trust me on this one, it will happen, but not until February unfortunately.

[Jamers]

We won an Epic 1 on 1 last night against the Nucks. As I always say...this be the year.

PS what the heck happened to miller a few games back, got chased in the 1st period....yikes.

PPS you'll grow to like Leino, trust me on this one, it will happen, but not until February unfortunately.

Yeah I was fortunate enough to catch that game. I decided to get gamecenter live this season so I've been having fun watching teams from the West I don't usually get to watch. I think Colorado looks like the real deal this year in your division, but I thought so last season too before they fell off the map. Edmonton has a bit to go before they sway me, though Nugent-Hopkins is impressive.

Miller hasn't been great for a few games now... though our team hasn't played well in front of him on home ice, particularly at the start of games. Luckily our backup Enroth has been good.

And I hope so with Leino, right now he just isn't fitting in. Maybe if he starts exploiting!

[leekofthewood]

Three points:

A) Who in their right mind let the worst warg in the history of basically all history onto the landroval forums?

B) Why all the champ hate all of a sudden? Creeps were certainly not qq'ing over champs all these years when we were terri-bad. A month in and already some people are making accusations that all champs are brain-dead idiots that only know how to hit 3 skills and still win. I've personally given out a minimum of 600k's worth of infamy while playing pretty well so I really laugh when I hear people now complaining. Ba's were buffed a fair share too, where's the discussion about them?


C) I trait 4 blues/3 reds, and yup, still a champ.

[dinin42]

Three points:

A) Who in their right mind let the worst warg in the history of basically all history onto the landroval forums?

...but...but....but...


I've always been here. Don;t see why it's a problem now......sheesh.

[dinin42]

Too much champ talk!

<DefilerTalk>

My little rank 6 defiler parsed around 1200HPS, with upwards of 1500HPS with the group HoT (but that's not usually a skill used in a 1v1).


</DefilerTalk>

Just curious, how many times did you parse this? And what were your conditions? (raid fighting, 1 on 1 fighting) Because if it was simply sitting in a safe area and spamming your heals and pulling numbers...well....that's math and not parsing. A good parse on really needs to be done a minimum of 100 times to factor in all all things that may occur. Things like interrupts, crits landing on your skills and such.

The funny thing is LOTRO has never really ever been into parsing as other games have. I cannot ever remember seeing here in LOTRO after a big fight someone saying Parse in OOC followed by everyone calling out their numbers. Again traditionally it's been about damage, not healing from a parsing standpoint. Very rare to see actual parsing from heals in most games.

[Jamers]

The funny thing is LOTRO has never really ever been into parsing as other games have. I cannot ever remember seeing here in LOTRO after a big fight someone saying Parse in OOC followed by everyone calling out their numbers.

Agreed, it's odd. Though, the new version of the Combat Analysis plugin makes it pretty easy to parse combat in game, so more people might look into it. It's a little bit more convenient than running external applications. I parse every 1v1 I have now; it's actually pretty interesting.

[F1erceGam3r2]

I parced twice before even logging into the forums...

Gut Out!