How to make the Warden useful and wanted on any team.

[Bruiwen]

This is mostly my girlfriend's idea, with a bit from me thrown in. This is a pretty drastic change to the class in some ways, without eliminating our current playstyle. It would require the devs to admit they don't know where our class is supposed to fit in, and that the realities of the class don't match up to what they have on paper. Even if the devs don't use this specific idea, I would like them to at least decide where we're supposed to be and stop yo-yoing the class like it has been since it was created. Some of you may not like this idea, some of you may. Either way, here it is.

I also want to say: I love Wardens. They are my favorite class, and though I don't team much outside my duo, I have gone to great lengths to learn as much as possible to make myself the best tank I can be in that capacity.

Like its MoM counterpart, the Runekeeper, the Warden was envisioned as a sort of hybrid class. The problem is, that with continued tinkering, inadvertent nerfs, and a failure for everyone else to understand what we're about, we never really achieved that. We have people wanting to play them as a DPS class, which they're really not, and fellowships thinking they can't tank, which they can, if they know how.

I don't think any of the difficulty in learning gambits and learning the nuances of tanking with the class should change, but we think the Warden should become a true hybrid, and that the devs need to finally admit that the Warden has never truly been where it should, or what the original vision for the class was, according my understanding of the dev diaries.

We propose a new Stance toggle, "Assault", that lets us essentially change roles. This toggle would have a 10-15 second induction, the idea being that it takes time to switch roles, and that there are penalties to doing so, like it does for Runekeepers.

It would drastically reduce the recharge on all of our ranged skills, so that we could hurl javelins with impunity, and if necessary, increase their damage, bringing us up to about 90% of Hunter/RK ranged DPS (before gearing). However, it would make the shield invisible, reduce BPE and Partial BPE to 0, and prevent the use of Gambits, though melee auto attacks and Critical Strike could still be used. In order to switch back to "tanking mode", Assault would need to be detoggled. Once detoggled, this skill takes a few minutes to recharge. While the penalties are immediately removed, our very playstyle acts as the "time penalty" for switching back to tanking, in that it takes time to get our rotations set up, and establish aggro.

This would effectively allow Wardens to switch back and forth, with time and penalties that would require actual thought and planning, between a tanking role, and a ranged DPS role. We think this would be very balanced. The same essential system works for RKs, and right now, Champions are both great DPS and great tanks.

It's our opinion that this would solve a lot of problems.

Thanks for reading.

[MorphenAvari]

That's an interesting idea, which I would be open to exploring ^^. The balance factor of a long induction (like a Mini entering Warspeech) and a set of penalties to the tanking role would make sense.

The main issue I see is " bringing us up to about 90% of Hunter/RK ranged DPS". Not sure if you have a Hunter or RK, but have you an idea of how much damage that is? That is a lot of damage for throwing a javelin, when it takes all the skills, traits, and gear of a Hunter or RK to do 10% more than that, according to your suggestion. Also it might gimp the roles of other classes who are secondary dps + other functions. I'm sure there could be some ways for it to be more balanced.

Just some thoughts... overall a very nice idea that deserves looking into.

[Bruiwen]

Not sure if you have a Hunter or RK, but have you an idea of how much damage that is? That is a lot of damage for throwing a javelin, when it takes all the skills, traits, and gear of a Hunter or RK to do 10% more than that, according to your suggestion.

She has both, and it's her idea. I think the idea is "At a base", not "Doing almost as much as a character geared for it, without gearing for it". that wouldn't be fair. That said, the Warden has a long history of not being allowed to be buffed because it might step on the toes of others, even as others are buffed into our role(s). That's also unfair.

[fuzzyyoji]

I was actually talking to my kin about this type of thing, a tank with a secondary ranged dps role. Good idea, and I like the application of the "war-speech" type toggle. Only problem is, there are no gambit's associated with it, and that is what makes the warden the love of my life. Maybe a hybrid ranged/melee? Close with beastie, stack bleeds, back out to ranged? /shrug. it's an interesting thing.

Failing that, spear traiting (5) should remove the threat component from "taunt" and up the damage more noticeably. I have no clear-cut ideas, but a Month of the Warden could have excellent effects.

If Wardens are bumped for a secondary role of melee/ranged dps, Guards HAVE to be looked at too! OP is awesome, cept the power issues I think.

[Kirkdog]

I like it.

If Wardens are bumped for a secondary role of melee/ranged dps, Guards HAVE to be looked at too! OP is awesome, cept the power issues I think.

Guards already can swing pretty hard in OP. I've been in many groups where guards have been asked to trait for OP. Never been in one where the leader asked me if I was specced for ranged DPS.

[Fenaril]

I was actually talking to my kin about this type of thing, a tank with a secondary ranged dps role. Good idea, and I like the application of the "war-speech" type toggle. Only problem is, there are no gambit's associated with it, and that is what makes the warden the love of my life. Maybe a hybrid ranged/melee? Close with beastie, stack bleeds, back out to ranged? /shrug. it's an interesting thing.

This got me thinking...

What if the "Javelin-Toggle" turned our Shield Builder into a Javelin Builder?

Think of the sheer madness... er... fun(?!?) of all our Shield Gambits having a secondary function with the toggle on?

Dance of War becomes Dance of Death, Shield Up! becomes Javelin Up!, etc.

If it's a Toggle Stance, it'll need a cooldown so we can't just bounce in and out of it to get all the benefits of both.

Another option is it could be the 5-Red Capstone or could replace JoDF (since JoDF could become a Gambit in the Shield/Javelin line).

I don't know if this will ever happen, but it does sound like some silly fun if it does!

[Feyll]

I'd love to see this come to pass. Wardens really need a 'plan B' for fellowship play when they aren't needed as a tank.

[Tartartart]

Was the Warden really billed as a hybrid class (like RKs) when it was first released?

The dev journal/class descriptions all list it as a melee tank (not the same thing as a dps-tank) which has some range abilities.

[Bruiwen]

Was the Warden really billed as a hybrid class (like RKs) when it was first released?

The dev journal/class descriptions all list it as a melee tank (not the same thing as a dps-tank) which has some range abilities.

It's been a year since I read it, and don't know where to find it, but that's what I got from what I read, and their challenges with building a tanking class that could also stealth and do good ranged damage. It may or may not have been flat out said, but that's what I got from it.

Either way, we're obviously not working the way we are, we get "accidentally" nerfed and then the devs seem too afraid to buff us back up to where we were in the first place, while making Champions capable of tanking almost on the level of a Guardian while still doing monstrous DPS. It's very confusing.

I think our tanking abilities still need improvement, but this would help our class a hell of a lot.

[2Radon]

I had thought of a similar idea before too, but instead of reducing CDs on Javelin skills, make the gambit builders into ranged versions of them. Just some not thoroughly thought names as example - Heavy Throw [Spear] ("The Warden puts more power to a throw"), Steady Throw [Shield] ("Warden throws the javelin without losing their guard"), Wardens Taunt [Fist] (Just increase range to javelin range). These modified gambit builders could then have more DPS flavored additional effects similar to the block increase of Shield Bash. Think a mini bleed on Heavy Throw.

Changing the actual gambits would require a lot of new stuff to make for the Warden, so instead limit the available gambits and modify them into ranged ones, like a ranged Deft Strike?

By the way, 10-15 sec cast time on a stance is way too frustrating in reality. Should be not higher than 10 seconds, but somewhere near that.
The cool-down... makes little practical use actually, since it is a stance and its not meant to be treated like a strong oh-#### button. That should be lower than 60 seconds, so around 30 is my take on it.
This is, of course, all my thoughts, and my Warden in low level too, and I do say that no numbers should be OP when it's only me not knowing the balance - just giving an example.

[eshade]

I think it is a interesting idea but i think assault would be a wrong name for it, it makes me think of leaping into battle jumping from enemy to enemy i like the idea though, it lets javelins be useful for something other than pulls

[Kirkdog]

There are 2 places I've seen stuff about wardens that would support this idea:

The loading screen adverting to Start a Warden says something along the lines of Hold aggro and do damage at the same time and the description in the character creation screen mentions our class can do moderate ranged DPS.

[cmal]

snip...moderate ranged DPS...snip

Heh, moderate ranged dps my eye. While I wouldn't mind seeing something to makes us a little more than meat shields (and pretty soft ones at that) I don't know about this particular idea. Not that I have a better suggestion.

[Liltaro]

All I love in my warden is gambit system. Complexity I don't see myself in position of range dps, based on clickable skills. And all those LFFs: 5/6 need dps no more hunters. Melee dps ("This is ARDA!" style), buffer, debuffer maybe. Range gambits? But I don't see this.

[Bruiwen]

All I love in my warden is gambit system. Complexity I don't see myself in position of range dps, based on clickable skills. And all those LFFs: 5/6 need dps no more hunters. Melee dps ("This is ARDA!" style), buffer, debuffer maybe. Range gambits? But I don't see this.

Then if this idea is ever implemented, don't use it. No one would be forcing you and our original playstyle would remain intact. This is simply an expansion on our already existing ranged skills.

[Harc]

I like that your girlfriend tried to expand on our original "ranged dps" role.

However, rotating 4 buttons depending on what CD is up isn't really fun. Even hunters have more buttons and more involving gameplay (like focus). To make this work, the devs would need to redo and come up with a new way for wardens to participate in ranged combat. From seeing how our "miss" issue isn't even being addressed after telling us that it would, I don't think they'll sink any more time into developing a novel idea.

The main problem I have with this is the fact that the original idea calls for us to be second-rate dps. We're already being disrespected as second-rate tanks, and adding another second-rate role wouldn't have people jumping to invite us. Personally if this was implemented and a hunter and warden both wanted to fulfill the DPS role, I'd take the hunter. The best way, in my opinion, to make us wanted in groups would be to put us on equal footing as main tanks. If the devs really want to make us something else, they should give us a role that is on par with the best (whether it be DPS, buffs, debuffs, healing, or just captainy goodness).

[Liltaro]

Then if this idea is ever implemented, don't use it. No one would be forcing you and our original playstyle would remain intact. This is simply an expansion on our already existing ranged skills.

I will test it

[BRDiger]

Well, i guess deleting every other class isn´t an option?