What the hunters need - A guide for ZC

[Estranger]

Alot of times in our community, we all bicker amongst ourselves. Our goals are often the same, to improve our class and our lot in LOTRO. But everything seems to get torn down because opinions can drastically differ in how we believe the developers should go about doing it.

I'm going to propose here providing a clear resource to ZC. This is to be a thread for suggestions, but zero fighting or even debate. Let ZC or whoever at turbine be the judge of the suggestions posted here, not other hunters.

The "rule" of the thread is you can only post one of two things: A suggestion or that you agree with the suggestion. (rule in quotes because I have no expectation that anyone would actually follow the rule lol, but maybe we could get moderator help for that and have them just delete all the extraneous stuff?) You cannot post that you think someone's suggestion is stupid, or not a priority, or suggest modifications to their suggestion.

If you respond that you support a suggestion, you're basically "like-ing" it, and I'm going to update the OP to keep track of the likes and the additions to the suggestion list. If you would like to add your reasoning for making the suggestion, go for it.

Hey, alot of us don't like where the hunter is at right now. Alot of us think ZC has abondoned us. At least at minimum this thread could let him lurk in and see a quick and easy list of the things that we think plague us most?

[Estranger]

1) Bright Campfire is changed to provide more In-combat and OOC buffs - 19 like

2) Hunter's Art is changed - 16 likes

3) Split Shot is changed - 17 likes

4) Adjust or blow up the Trapper Line - 14 like

5) Induction/focus crit and power legacies are consolidated, one for crit, one for power- 13 Like

6) Scale and/or update Heartseeker and Shot Through The Heart - 10 like

7) Ranged Interrupt - 9 like

8) Buff Quickshot (on the move, no induction and/or stanceless slow) - 10 Like

9) Blindside's interrupt comes at the beginning of the animation - 7 like

10) Needful Haste's pre-ROI duration is restored - 7 Like

11) Buff Barbed Arrow (bleed duration returned to pre-EotD level and/or increase base slow) - 10 like

12) Low cut always removes a slow without the need for PVP gear - 6 Like

13) Give hunters a larger support role - 5 Like

14) Hunter version of the Black Arrow's Skirmisher Stance - 4 Like

15) Update Find the Path (Magnitude and/or works in combat) - 6 Like

16) Give the Hunter Moving Target - 5 Like

17) Buff Cry of the Predator (non-pottable and/or +miss chance)- 6 Like

18) Strength of the Earth's pre-EotD's magnitude is restored -5 Like

19) Buff Swift Bow (Damage, number of shots, or focus gen) - 6 Like

20) Return Desperate Flight to the Ettenmoors - 7 Like

21) Hunter Bubble, either on its own, or when SotE or Press On are activated - 6 Like

22) Provide hunters with increased morale (base, itemization, trait) - 5 Like

23) Fast draw is moved to Blue, Strong Draw is moved to Red - 3 Like

24) Additional Return to Camp anchors - 3 Like

25) Include Split Shot in the Fast Draw trait - 2 like

26) Return Strong Draw to its pre-ROI incarnatoin - 4 Like

27) Give Hunters a sprint - 4 Like

28) Set Trap and Set Snare should be on seperate CD - 2 Like

29) Update Hunter's Melee - - 2 Likes

30) Improved Focus is changed - 2 like

31) Buff Stances Strength - 3 Like

32) Buff Stance Endurance - 4 Like

33 Improve/update/change Camo (increased stealth level and/or add movement) - 3 Like

34 Heightened senses trait should be removed and the bonus should become innate - 4 Like

35 Put Threat back on Stance Strength - 1 Like

36 Return Improved Fleet to its pre-ROI incarnation - 1 Like

37 Poison Cure animation is faster, and done on the move - 1 Like

38 Overhaul Merciful Shot - 2 Like

39 Buff Press Onward (usable on the move and/or increase magnitude) - 4 Like

40 Allow snares on the move
41 Dazing Blow becomes a fast skill
42 Buff Intent Concentration (immediate and/or usable on the move)
43 Increase Parry on Swift Stroke
44 Agile Rejoinder heal provides an evade buff
45 Allow Burn Hot/Cool Burn to affect our melee skills
46 If target is immune to Hunter CC, the target is debuffed and interrupted
47 Give us a trait that will temporarily increase our ranged distance
48 Break the traitlines down into: Single Target DPS with inductions, Limited or No Induction DPS, Focus building/power saving DPS
49 Give hunters a skill that makes all ranged atttacks except auto-attacks un-b/p/e-able for 30 seconds. 5 minute CD.
50 Give us group wide poisoin cures without needing to trait for it.

[CWood]

Having not played since the update and only basing this off the reactions of people whose opinions I either respect or agree with (or both):

We need a Wayback Machine set to just before RoI launched. Ditch the revamp and just scale our pre-existing skills for the new capless mechanics. Should take care of things nicely, and inter-class balance can sort itself out easily enough.

[Kongas]

1. A fundamental and even extreme reconsideration of the Trapper line, prepared to even come to the conclusion that it is so flawed it is beyond redemption.

2. A marked lessening of focus choke.

3. Clear blue water between our burst and sustained dps and any other class unless and until we acquire a meaningful, practical secondary role. See first point.

[WingedDeath]

1. Split Shot is far too situational. I rarely use it even when going out of my way to use it. It's just too slow and too small an area to be worthwhile.

2. Hunter's Art too costly, too long of a induction/animation. I have used this a few times and just don't like it. I see no worthwhile difference in damage I do while it is on. Even making the buff last the entire fight seems useless. As it stands, I see no need to use it on anything. It's just too difficult and bulky (for lack of a better word) to work into my skill rotation.

A new future fluff skill, I would love to be able to bind to an additional campfire site.

[Mad_Bombardier]

1. Split Shot is far too situational. I rarely use it even when going out of my way to use it. It's just too slow and too small an area to be worthwhile.

I think the problem with Split Shot is not the radius, but the induction time for damage output. My simple suggestion for Split Shot is to include it with other induction skills (Barbed Arrow and Swift Bow) in Fast Draw and Needful Haste. -10% Fast Draw induction all the time and another -20% Needful Hasted induction for every 30s out of 60s (traited and legacied) would really make the skill usable. Not great, but usable.

Including the -10% induction Huntsman trait line (3B) bonus with the above trait and skill, Barbed Arrow drops from 1.5s induction to 1s. Swift Bow drops from 2.0s induction to 1.2s. Split Shot should also drop from 1.5s to 1s.

[Ingaras]

1) Hunter's Art animation needs to be much, much quicker. It's supposed to be a rotational skill and now holds up a rotation.

2) Give Bright Campfire some more love... I've got more Icpr then Ocpr with all the will I lost, and food is getting expensive (Is there any risk of a out-of-combat-only skill being unbalanced? up those numbers!)

3) Induction/Focus legacy combination would be awesome, but not seeing it happen anytime soon


Besides that there's a 'Like Not' to add: I really like Split-shot, so don't touch it... yes it's a bit tricky to use, but when you got a decent tank with 3 or mobs on him and the AoE-targets legacy, it's an efficient and almost risk-free AoE skill.

And hasn't the Blindside interrupt gone forward in the animation already? It used to be at the very end before RoI, but seems to be rather early on now.

[Ventata47]

1. Scale Heart seeker and Shot through the Heart trait.

2. Remove MoM nerf on 3rd Swift Bow arrow.

3. Ranged Interupt!

4. Scale Camp fire.

5. Fix Hunters Art animation. Fix agro pull on induction.

6. Split Shot. Would have situational usefulness if it did some damage.

7. Re-evalutate hunter LI legacies. Update/add/remove.

8. Generic: Provide a T7 Crafted Accuracy Relic.

[WingedDeath]

I think the problem with Split Shot is not the radius, but the induction time for damage output. My simple suggestion for Split Shot is to include it with other induction skills (Barbed Arrow and Swift Bow) in Fast Draw and Needful Haste. -10% Fast Draw induction all the time and another -20% Needful Hasted induction for every 30s out of 60s (traited and legacied) would really make the skill usable. Not great, but usable.

Including the -10% induction Huntsman trait line (3B) bonus with the above trait and skill, Barbed Arrow drops from 1.5s induction to 1s. Swift Bow drops from 2.5s induction to 1.5s. Split Shot should also drop from 1.5s to 1s.

I can see your point. I agree with you mostly. Would still love to see it upped by another 1m or so. A lot of times I use it, it just will not hit the second mob even though they are standing side by side. A skill that causes the induction to be 0s would be nice also. Like the one melee skill that makes barbed arrow instant.

I just feel it needs more versatility and it's too difficult to fire efficiently in the middle of a battle. Like the person above said:

"yes it's a bit tricky to use, but when you got a decent tank with 3 or mobs on him and the AoE-targets legacy, it's an efficient and almost risk-free AoE skill."

That in my opinion is an example of situational. If you have a decent tank with 3 mobs on him. Sure, it's worthwhile. But how many hunters in the game play with a decent tank, and how often will this situation occur for them to use it? For me, never. I duo play. The only time it is worthwhile to me, is in skirmishes and I have to wait until I'm sure my soldier has all the aggro before I fire and pull them all to me instead. And if I have to do that, why not just use rain of arrows? RoA may cost focus, but it's instant and far easier to use and I know it'll hit everything in front of me.

[Kheld_GB]

I pretty much agree with everything on the list, particuarly the Blindside Interupt. Its simply not fast enough at the moment.

[haroldhnicholos]

longer bleed on barbed arrow please. aslo maybe a stance or a QUICK SHOT ON THE RUN atleast so we can shoot more moving without burning all the focas out. ps give us back our reducing focas on blood arrow and pen. shot back.

[Mad_Bombardier]

I can see your point. I agree with you mostly. Would still love to see it upped by another 1m or so. A lot of times I use it, it just will not hit the second mob even though they are standing side by side.

And I can agree with you, mostly. It is silly in a game where melee range with a dagger is 2.5m that you can only use an AoE skill within a smaller radius. Sometimes, it's a matter of shooting at the left guy and only hitting left and center, not right (or vice versa). At it's best, you can shoot the guy in the middle and hit left and right, for a 3-shot. But, when they're at 2.5m distance just outside the 2m radius and you just miss, it's silly. Increasing from 2m radius to 2.5m (or 3m) radius would ensure that targeting the mob in front of the tank would also hit mobs on left and right flanks.

Alternatively, or additionally, I've seen the suggestion for Split Shot to be multiple arrows and for all of them to hit in the radius. If there's 2 mobs in the radius, damage is halved for each, if 3 mobs damage is 1/3 each, etc.. But, if there's only 1 mob, it takes all arrows and all damage. That would work to increased the damage making the skill use more desirable.

*On another sidetrack note, it's silly that the melee range with a Halberd/polearm is 2.5m, same as a dagger. But, that's fodder for another thread.

[kballard]

longer bleed on barbed arrow please. aslo maybe a stance or a QUICK SHOT ON THE RUN atleast so we can shoot more moving without burning all the focas out. ps give us back our reducing focas on blood arrow and pen. shot back.

I concur that mobility is something a hunter simply does not have, which is fine for most cases. I would love to see a skirmisher stance like the BA, which removes inductions for most skills (exclude HS and DS most likely) but sacrifices dmg or range (or both). A -20% dmg, -20% range for no inductions maybe? I have no idea as to the magnitude this buff would give. Maybe allow inductions to process while moving? That would be good i think (so there is no iSB spamming) for a cost of -20% range and 10% dmg. The BA's in PVP already have a similar (more or less) to this, and I would love to see a hunter go this direction.

[Nuth_KM]

my votes:

7) Induction/focus crit and power legacies are consolidated, one for power, one for focus - 1 Like (EDIT: I think you meant "one for focus and one for power")

16) Scale Heartseeker and Shot Through The Heart

3) Bright Campfire is Scaled to be on par with food

[Deacon51]

Allow add incoming/outgoing healing to campfire, applied in or out of combat.

[Tullaian]

Surely the entire Yellow line issue needs to be addressed. The traits , the bonuses and the purpose of the 'cc' line need to be entirely rethought as the reality is that nobody specs it, nobody uses it and in most cases the skills in it are effectively useless. As the utility spec line it simply isn't useful enough to give up the dps spec lines to invest in.

New RoI skills Split Shot and Hunters Art both need a serious rethink and serious rebalancing. Split Shots induction needs serious lowering and its dps needs increasing to justify using it because if you are AoEing you will be traited and spamming Rain of Arrows anyway. Hunters Art is just simply awful , a buff that aggros on cast and which in many cases actually lowers your dps through its long cast animation.

The benefits of S:P which include the extra focus gen, the LI that still only affects S:P etc. have meant that the stated dev intention to make all three stances viable has failed. S:P is still the clear preference in all situations.

PVP. Gack where to start.. versus the BA the hunter is just rubbish. Looks at the BA with its fire on the run, scaled fire DOT that is seriously dangerous etc and look at the hunters almost total lack of self-defence inside melee range. I realise LOTRO isn't a PVP focused game but seriously the difference between the 2 mirror classes are pretty large.

[Idiotvillage]

I am not sure it is appropriate to compare a ba to a hunter as bas are creeps only heavy ranged damage dealers. In pvmp bas supplement the weakness of the other creeps ranged attacks. There are no creep equivalents of some of the freep tactical classes so I don't think effectiveness of bas is relevant.

[Flassan]

I like the suggestion about scaling the campfire buff.


I would also like to put forward the suggestions:

* Make the hunter run speed buff IN-COMBAT for the hunter, as well as out of combat (as it is now). Gives a little bonus to kiting, which means that even if hunters aren't given any more instant cast abilities, they aren't disadvantaged when going up against a melee opponent. (Especially in the moors where 100% of the hunter stuns, dazes and lockdowns are pottable)
It also means that the Legendary Item Legacy that increases this run speed is actually more useful. (considering the horse summon time has been halved, why would you run with a +15% increase, when you can summon your horse for a +68% buff in a few seconds)

* Give the hunter an evade skill similar to the BA. Elf Hunters have a +75% parry buff, which is essentially useless as it lasts 10seconds, doesn't allow you to evade ranged or tactical damage, and has a 60minute cooldown. I propose giving the hunter a 5-15 minute cooldown skill which gives a +50-75% evade chance that lasts for 10-15 seconds.
Then the elf skill can be changed to give say a +physical and tactical mitigation buff? But that's unrelated.


Also, for PVP:

* Make Desperate Flight usable in combat again in the moors.

[deaddove]

In favor of "11) Adjust or blow up the Trapper Line 1 like",

but also ... A.) [New Suggestion] Scrap the whole trapper line in favor of something different. How about a rapid fire (lesser if not no-induction, and hopefully while moving?) line, at the cost of single hit dps?

In favor of "16) Scale Heartseeker and Shot Through The Heart* - 3 like",

but also ... B.) [New Suggestion] Scale heartseeker with a non-induction version(and moveable) but with a heavier cost of power and a far lengthier cooldown ..a true pvp skill.

In favor of "17) Increase damage on third shot of Swift Bow",

but also ... C.) [New Suggestion] Add fourth shot to swift bow, or double two shot swift bow damage.

Further new suggestions follow:
D.) Increase (Double at least, I mean.. Wardens. 'nuff said) out of combat run speed from Find the Path (Or at least double the legacy turnout into +12 or more)

E.) Change Needful Haste into (or add something entirelly new) a skill that allows for a short, in-combat speed boost

F.) Hunter bubble. Double, if not triple our morale for 30 seconds. (I mean, did champions REALLY.. need that? REALLY?!)

G.) Scrap hunter ports, or increase cooldown on them -- stop making us into some sort of utility class. We're DEEPSZ!11!! Would you willingly trade your ports for actual dps? I would. I don't know about you, but 2-3 screens from swift travel or a 5 minute wait from a normal travel ISN'T THAT BAD.

H.) Temporary increase of ranged distance skill / permanent trait .... aka Concentration of the Hunter's Spirit or something. (Just a funky name I thought for it. If you don't like it, too bad. I'm me and I'm you.)

I.) Split hunters into 3 different dps types, aka total revamp of traits ... possibly -- Ranged Single Burst Dps w/Inductions (Red) -- Lesser Induction / No Induction DPS (at a cost to cooldowns) (Yellow) -- Focus Building / Power saving dps (Blue)

J.) Get a new developer besides ZC. (Heh, couldn't resist. Sorry.)

K.) Add 'tapping button' skills (instead of some inductions maybe so we can GET SOME SHOTS OFF.) -- Would have to press key (say 5 is your slot for it) for a multi-shot or multiplier shot of some kind. Consider it a multi target lock if you pressed tab and then hit the key (and within 10 seconds allowed, 1 sec max intervals before canceled?) .. true, picked target AOE at a range. Consider it an improvement over champions. You would however be LOCKED into that skill only while it was in use until you stopped pressing fast enough or .. could be randomized with the amount of time you have to use it, depending on focus maybe?! .. oh ... and could I not stress this enough.. you can MOVE when using it?!)

L.) Add fear/poison/disease/wound shots besides barbed arrow that would be a dispellable effect and disable the player as some sort of CC.

If you couldn't tell from this thread, I HATE inductions. (Yes, I have needful haste as it is now, but its REALLY annoying to keep that traited.) They are the bane of LOTRO. I can easily outperform a hunter with 10 levels on me on both my minstrel and my warden. Any class that stands as a solid pillar, crumbles under forces from multiple directions like smooth, liquid water.
* <- this is a fix to the fixes!

If Turbine were to be hiring or anything, I'd gladly take over this cobwebbed and shunned class.

edit; also in support of the consolidation of the power and critical improvements in legacies.

[Mahalikii]

I like the suggestion about scaling the campfire buff.


I would also like to put forward the suggestions:

* Make the hunter run speed buff IN-COMBAT for the hunter, as well as out of combat (as it is now). Gives a little bonus to kiting, which means that even if hunters aren't given any more instant cast abilities, they aren't disadvantaged when going up against a melee opponent. (Especially in the moors where 100% of the hunter stuns, dazes and lockdowns are pottable)
It also means that the Legendary Item Legacy that increases this run speed is actually more useful. (considering the horse summon time has been halved, why would you run with a +15% increase, when you can summon your horse for a +68% buff in a few seconds)

* Give the hunter an evade skill similar to the BA. Elf Hunters have a +75% parry buff, which is essentially useless as it lasts 10seconds, doesn't allow you to evade ranged or tactical damage, and has a 60minute cooldown. I propose giving the hunter a 5-15 minute cooldown skill which gives a +50-75% evade chance that lasts for 10-15 seconds.
Then the elf skill can be changed to give say a +physical and tactical mitigation buff? But that's unrelated.


Also, for PVP:

* Make Desperate Flight usable in combat again in the moors.

Agree with this stuff. To reiterate, not that DF is any great shakes, but how is any skill with a 30 min CD OP enough to disable (anywhere), much less one that doesn't do damage or affect an opponent in any way? Just on principle this should be enabled.

Also:

Perhaps a stun/slow that temporarily grants immunity to stuns/slows + gives short speed buff to get back at range.

[BUELZ]

1) reduced focus on iPS and BA, like it used to be
2) a skrim stance like BAs would be wonderful (qs, ba, sb type deal)
3) removal of the xhairs on HS
4)shorter animation of hunter's art so it can fit in a rotation
5)longer BA bleed (so that its 15 or 20 sec)
6) a ranged interupt
7) longer needful haste
8) increased SotE regen
.

[Aldengar]

my votes:

[QUOTE=deaddove;5795467]In favor of "11) Adjust or blow up the Trapper Line 1 like",
but also ... A.) [New Suggestion] Scrap the whole trapper line in favor of something different. How about a rapid fire (lesser if not no-induction, and hopefully while moving?) line, at the cost of single hit dps?


E.) Change Needful Haste into (or add something entirelly new) a skill that allows for a short, in-combat speed boost
Either change or at least increase duration

F.) Hunter bubble. Double, if not triple our morale for 30 seconds.

20) Allow us to use Quick Shot on the move

[Ingaras]

Surely the entire Yellow line issue needs to be addressed. The traits , the bonuses and the purpose of the 'cc' line need to be entirely rethought as the reality is that nobody specs it, nobody uses it and in most cases the skills in it are effectively useless. As the utility spec line it simply isn't useful enough to give up the dps spec lines to invest in.

The yellow line isn't that bad since the latest inception... it's just that there's no place for it.
- We already have quite a bit of cc when not yellow traited (RoT, Bard's, trap-skills, crafted traps), which reduces the impact of 'traiting CC'
- in 90% of the content having/using CC only makes stuff more complicated, it's far more easier to just grab everything and AoE since Guardians, Wardens and Champs can handle the 8-mob pulls without the need to reduce the numbers with a root-pull.
- of those 10% content where CC actually can make a difference, 9% depends on mezzes. We rock at generally useless roots and fears... but our legendary-traited mezz is slow and unreliable compared to the LM and Burglar.

[Tullaian]

That was my point. The entire yellow line isn't good enough to justify traiting it so nobody does. The cc you have without traiting it is more than enough for most situations and where you have serious CC requirements like say OD you'd bring LMs and Burgs and be doing it 'properly'.

Given that, having CC be the focus of Yellow is a waste as it is currently which is effectively a waste of 1/3 of our traits and spec opportunities.

What utility we need are either buffs (WOW gave Hunters the equivalent of an RO group/raid buff as did EQ for Rangers in the end for example) that would be unique to hunters so that having a hunter in a group would be like having a captain but complementatary , interrupts which would be a good secondary role as burg's are the least populous class , OR the yellow line needs to be about doing a different sort of DPS. You could maybe see a range of yellow DOTs against different weaknesses, or multipliers for DOTs or debuffs switching hunter DPS from front loaded to damage over time.

[Ventata47]

Just happened to stumble across quite a lot of Dev interaction on other class forums. So much so that I wonder if ZC has departed or taken on other duties. Just an observation. Is any blue name able to clarify?