What the hunters need - A guide for ZC

[Eldrandir]

9) Blindside's interrupt comes at the beginning of the animation
Will do, absolutely.

It also needs to be immediate, a non immediate interrupt on an induction class is as useless as giving a ranged class a melee interrupt.

[Milithion]

Thank you for your responses ZC. The one thing I'd like to see is a revamp to Bow of the Righteous to make it worthwhile in terms of power return - and perhaps even a tiny amount of morale.

I haven't traited it since level 40. Intent Concentration healing 750 power per pop and Press Onward at 3:30CD mean I don't need power pots.

hmm.... press onward gives you in middle 1343 power per 3:30

bow of the rigteous gives you in the same time 1428 power. (lets say 30 skills per min) or even 1904 if you could mange it to use 40 skills per min.

and i need, even with all 3 things power pots. (and an icpr of 1500, with -20% powercost (12% book, 8%bow)

[Nuth_KM]

as some other hunters have mentioned, very very few of us use or even dabble in the ToF line.. so I'd think there might be some difficulty getting feedback on use ... but therein lies some sort of evidence that something might be seriously lacking in the line.... I do like the ideas posted about making the ToF line more about solo play and giving it some melee buff. Would be a nice alternative to a "bow spec". Maybe include traits there that would give strong melee and a defensive bubble and buff the trapping skills in it to include non-resistable traps/snares .. would make for a very interesting and potentially viable alternative build.


oh.. while I'm at it... I would like to see Improved Focus modified... extend the buff and decrease the % crit chance .. maybe make it a 15s buff that gives a 15% crit chance.

[Tithias]

Make Fleetness worth the cost of focus required to use it. First, make it a bit longer like around 30s. Second, no induction on Improved Quick Shot, Barbed Arrow, Improved Swiftbow, and Spit Shot (HS not included) for its duration, w/ a cd of 2 or 3min. This can be played around with a bit by giving legacy adding duration and/or a legacy reducing cd.

[Aedfrith]

hmm.... press onward gives you in middle 1343 power per 3:30

bow of the rigteous gives you in the same time 1428 power. (lets say 30 skills per min)

But doesn't give you any morale. And I don't just use PO (even though, along with DF, it's the closest thing a hunter has to an "oh !"£"!" button, like the champ bubble, warden NS or burg HIPS) but also the much faster Intent Concentration cooldown.

[Milithion]

But doesn't give you any morale. And I don't just use PO (even though, along with DF, it's the closest thing a hunter has to an "oh !"£"!" button, like the champ bubble, warden NS or burg HIPS) but also the much faster Intent Concentration cooldown.

jeah, but where do you need this moral? you need the moral if you are in trouble, and normaly you should never be in such situations.

[Adelric]

Good thread. I'll give my thoughts on the top 10.

1) Bright Campfire is changed to provide more In-combat and OOC buffs
The OOC regen amounts were nearly doubled in the last update, but I'll take another look at them. In-combat is an interesting idea, perhaps wrap this into the Trapper Line somehow...

The buff size needs to scale with level. Otherwise, it's simultaneously overpowered at low level and weak at high levels. Wrapping it into the Trapper Line will only work if the line itself works, which is a bigger issue.

The camp fire buff needs to be strong enough that players notice it, but not so strong it can substitute for any existing buff source. Make the size of the buff maybe 50-70% of what we can get from food at the same level, both in and out of combat - a discount because we're not using up consumables, and because it'd affect the whole group. This could potentially include buffs to mitigations, also obtainable from food.

2) Hunter's Art is changed
My thought for Hunters Art are: Slightly increase damage; Re-work buff a little: Now lasts for 30 seconds. Instead of stacking multiple effects, it now tiers up and refreshes duration, much like a RK's Writs.

The second sounds good, but consider making the skill zero damage, so we can use it as a pre battle buff.

My thoughts for Split shot are:

• Stop the additional target legacy from effecting it (This was added near the end of beta, and was the reason the damage and radius had to be reduced, the skill was just WAY too strong. Removing the legacy lets us make the skill more exciting in other ways...)
• Modify it to give +1 focus per target hit
• Slightly increase radius
• Slightly increase damage

All sounds good.

4) Adjust or blow up the Trapper Line
I'm really hesitant here. The amount of CC and fellowship-damage buffs in the line, plus the complete removal of the old damage penalties, and loosening of the stance restrictions, makes for a potent combination. I fully admit that the Trapper line from days past was sub-par, but even then there were players who were able to do some impressive things with it. My sense is that the opposition to this line is more based on gut then experience.

A big issue. This isn't just about what hunters think of the line, but about what other classes expect from hunters.

Our primary role is dps, and always will be. If we sacrifice dps, compared to what the other two lines other, for crowd control, then what other classes will see is a hunter who can't deliver the expected dps. Having crowd control doesn't make up for this, in their eyes; they've got primary crowd-controlling classes who can deliver that much better.

All three lines need to deliver the same top tier dps in instances, or they simply won't be welcome there, and all three lines need to be able to perform a secondary role on top of that, in the same way as champs can off-tank. In principle, you could have one line optimal for instances and another for soloing, but in practice as long as the instance line is viable on landscape, people will stay in it all the time rather than constantly retraiting, leaving the intended soloing line little used.

Looked at in that light, the trapper line needs its dps increasing to match the other two, and they need to gain a viable secondary role.

There's also an issue with crowd control in instances in general. Since bosses are mostly immune to it, anyone set up to do crowd control, of whatever class, is partially hobbled. That's a matter for the instance designers, not the class devs, but it does make crowd control feel less desirable.

5) Induction/focus crit and power legacies are consolidated, one for crit, one for power
I'd like to make a pass on Legacies, but I can't promise when. The fact remains that Hunter DPS is high, and consolidation will push it higher, so it's a difficult place to be in.

Consolidating the power legacies wouldn't much increase dps, and would create room for a new legacy, preferably one that boosts our secondary role. If that kind of support legacy needs to go on the melee weapon, the critical magnitude in precision could perhaps be shifted to the bow

Your other five comments all look good - not what we'd like, perhaps, but definitely promising.

[Ileri]

Some ideas for ZC iro HA, SS and ToF:

Hunter`s Art:
* Non-damaging self-buff for 750 finess with 15s duration, 30s CD, 2 focus cost and in-combat use;
* Respective trait to improve it (most likely within "yellow" line) => 1`500 finess, same duration CD and cost, but also applicable for fellowship member with 10m radius.

Split Shot:
* applicable to up to 3 targets within 5m radius of selected target; base damage of each arrow increased by at least 20% vs current;
* in case there are less then 3 targets within am radius, overall 3 arrow damage is distributed between avaliable targets, f.e.: 2 targets = 1 arrow damage * 1,5; 1 target only = 1 arrow damage * 3.

Yellow Trait changes:

1) Combine Barbed Hindrance and Barbed Fury under 1 trait and make it within red line preferrably.

2) PenShot root - instead of a set bonus ppl want to return, create a separate yellow trait for it, f.e.:
5 sec root, 10 sec CD, in case of crit root becomes unbreakable/unpottable and lasts for 10 sec. This would increase hunters survivability (a thing all hunters greatly desire these days);

3) H-Senses - make it usefull, i.e. target should not be able to elude your track unless using combat hips. Under current stage this trait is worthless to equip (about 25-30% of the time I get "eluded" message BEFORE tracked target appears on mini-map).

4) Trap traits - 3 trap traits to be created/refreshed in order to allow:
a) use of whole pannel of traps with separate CDs for each type, 50% decrease to traps CDs and inductions;
b) use of traps in combat and increase of their normal damage by 25%;
c) use of snairs in combat and on a move.

5) Improved Cry of the Predator - trait allowing to use it against any hostile creature (perhaps even as AoE skill)

Other traits to remain as they are.

Set bonuses:
for 2 - adds 1`000 resistance penalty on effected target;
for 3 - adds 15% slow on effected target after breaking/potting root/daze/fear
for 4 - adds 250 resistance penalty on effected target per each yellow trait equipped.

[simplyviven]

Make Fleetness worth the cost of focus required to use it. First, make it a bit longer like around 30s. Second, no induction on Improved Quick Shot, Barbed Arrow, Improved Swiftbow, and Spit Shot (HS not included) for its duration, w/ a cd of 2 or 3min. This can be played around with a bit by giving legacy adding duration and/or a legacy reducing cd.

No induction on Swiftbow and splitshot is a lot to ask for. Anything doing that much dps is OP without induction.
Against melee classes in moors, barbed arrow induction can be removed if u use scourging blow first and with proper rotation it can be induction free most of the time.

It will be really good idea to have no induction on Improved quickshot while improved fleetness is up. Also melee skills should not root the hunter at one place.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Perfect for me. But the animation of Hunter's Art is too slow. When you're using a lot of fast skills, stop for using a slow skill like Hunter's Art seems to be wasting time, even for the buffs.

I agree. There is also a problem of when the skill aggros. The aggro is immediate and the target closes ~10m (1/4 of the max distance) as I raise my flaming arrow in the air and shoot. He's closed in on me before I even loose an arrow. If I was able to use the skill and have the animation go off before the effect, it would be smoother. Still slow in-combat, but smoother as a starting attack.

[Estranger]

There's also an issue with crowd control in instances in general. Since bosses are mostly immune to it, anyone set up to do crowd control, of whatever class, is partially hobbled. That's a matter for the instance designers, not the class devs, but it does make crowd control feel less desirable.

This is it exactly. And I'd just like to add to this, in comparing the Loremaster and burglar CC to the hunter:

To get the full LM CC, the loremaster isn't actually traiting CC. They're typically traiting debuffs. Ancient Master. Similarly, the Burg isn't specifically traiting CC either, they're traiting a line mixed with powerful debuffs and some CC buffs. Mischief. In both of those lines, the components that gives them their full CC capabilities are ancillary to their primary role, debuffing. So those those two classes "traiting CC" are actually gaining CC capabilities from traiting debuffs.

What this means is that when the get to places in the content where CC isn't viable (stuff is immune or better off AOE'd), those two classes still have utility and still fill their primary role - debuffer.

The Trapper line is the opposite. We're traiting CC and gaining very few debuffs. So when we encounter content where CC isn't viable (immunity or better off AOE'd), we are actually becoming detrimental to the group. We have a couple debuffs, low health, low dps. Better that we weren't even there.

[PurebloodWorg]

6) Scale and/or update Heartseeker and Shot Through The Heart
Can you be more specific? Do you mean damage increase? Cause Heartseeker seems just fine to me...

Seems fine to us too.

Your friends,
The Wargs

[Estranger]

Seems fine to us too.

Your friends,
The Wargs

This is true, for a fully geared hunter with induction crit multiplier maxed, Burn Hot maxed, HS damage maxed, improved focus, cool burn, in precision with the 13% crit multipler, a heartseeker can 1shot. Super powerful no doubt.

However, when it doesn't crit...

For example, I hit cool burn in combat (so no improved focus), with the maxed legacies I listed above, 20% Crit, 20k RO, and Heartseeker'ed a rank 7 war leader. My tool tip without the buff from from cool burn says it will hit between 2500 and 3500 non crit.

I hit for 2100 with the 50% increase from cool burn. Not even worth the induction it took to get the skill off.

[kerryak]

This is it exactly. And I'd just like to add to this, in comparing the Loremaster and burglar CC to the hunter:

To get the full LM CC, the loremaster isn't actually traiting CC. They're typically traiting debuffs. Ancient Master. Similarly, the Burg isn't specifically traiting CC either, they're traiting a line mixed with powerful debuffs and some CC buffs. Mischief. In both of those lines, the components that gives them their full CC capabilities are ancillary to their primary role, debuffing. So those those two classes "traiting CC" are actually gaining CC capabilities from traiting debuffs.

What this means is that when the get to places in the content where CC isn't viable (stuff is immune or better off AOE'd), those two classes still have utility and still fill their primary role - debuffer.

The Trapper line is the opposite. We're traiting CC and gaining very few debuffs. So when we encounter content where CC isn't viable (immunity or better off AOE'd), we are actually becoming detrimental to the group. We have a couple debuffs, low health, low dps. Better that we weren't even there.

This has been an issue since Moria, though. (edit: ok, exaccerbated by the trait line bonii in Moria, in SoA you'd slot things for different reasons)

A classic suggestion from back in the day is to have CC skills apply a debuff as well, so that the skills are more than a waste. An example was Bard's Arrow increase (ranged) damage received for the length of it's cooldown, so that on bosses, you'd include it in a rotation to keep the damage debuff constantly applied. That sort of thing.


@ ZC
I really like the idea of HA being a tiered, refreshable, stacking buff like writs.

[PurebloodWorg]

This is true, for a fully geared hunter with induction crit multiplier maxed, Burn Hot maxed, HS damage maxed, improved focus, cool burn, in precision with the 13% crit multipler, a heartseeker can 1shot. Super powerful no doubt.

However, when it doesn't crit...

For example, I hit cool burn in combat (so no improved focus), with the maxed legacies I listed above, 20% Crit, 20k RO, and Heartseeker'ed a rank 7 war leader. My tool tip without the buff from from cool burn says it will hit between 2500 and 3500 non crit.

I hit for 2100 with the 50% increase from cool burn. Not even worth the induction it took to get the skill off.

I see your point but cant really sympathize since as a Warg my best crit on a non-heavy class is 1.3K. Heavy classes there is zero chance for me to ever crit (or dev) above 1K given current Freep Heavy Armor mitigations. However, Champions can easily crit for 2-4K on a fully armored (Shadow Howler) Warg.

Anyway, I will be watching this thread.

[NecrosIX]

It also needs to be immediate, a non immediate interrupt on an induction class is as useless as giving a ranged class a melee interrupt.

I think eldrandir summed it up very nicely. It's not that we want another interrupt skill, ZC, it's just that what we have now requires us to give up our ranged advantage in order to interrupt an enemy's induction (provided we can even make it in time after closing the distance). Besides, blindside is such a valuable skill for generating focus that it will probably be used at first notice. Therefore, it will most likely be in cooldown when an interrupt is needed.

I suggest moving the interrupt functionality to hunter's art instead. It should give hunter's art some use outside of prolonged fights when buffs take a backseat to pure dps. Also, if hunter's art were to be tiered as per your suggestion, it would not be necessary to use it immediately after its cooldown is complete. Hence, freeing it up for use as an interrupt. The focus, on top of the power, required should help balance the fact that we would then have the longest ranged interrupt in the game.

[Perfang]

Good thread. I'll give my thoughts on the top 10.

1) Bright Campfire is changed to provide more In-combat and OOC buffs
The OOC regen amounts were nearly doubled in the last update, but I'll take another look at them. In-combat is an interesting idea, perhaps wrap this into the Trapper Line somehow...

My input: An addition with some icmr and icpr would be quite nice, even if it was worked into a trait line.

2) Hunter's Art is changed
My thought for Hunters Art are:

• Slightly increase damage
• Re-work buff a little: Now lasts for 30 seconds. Instead of stacking multiple effects, it now tiers up and refreshes duration, much like a RK's Writs.
  
  My input: What about power cost? I tried working this into my rotation when isen was launched and I have a hard time seeing why I should spend 184 power(yes I know it can be reduced with legacies) for a +5% buff when I can use a much better and quicker move to down something like penetrating shot? The idea of the move is nice..but the power cost is a huge turn off for most people.
  

3) Split Shot is changed
My thoughts for Split shot are:

• Stop the additional target legacy from effecting it (This was added near the end of beta, and was the reason the damage and radius had to be reduced, the skill was just WAY too strong. Removing the legacy lets us make the skill more exciting in other ways...)
• Modify it to give +1 focus per target hit
• Slightly increase radius
• Slightly increase damage
  
  My input: I actually like this idea, though I have more of a suggestion but that'll be answered lower.
  
  

4) Adjust or blow up the Trapper Line
I'm really hesitant here. The amount of CC and fellowship-damage buffs in the line, plus the complete removal of the old damage penalties, and loosening of the stance restrictions, makes for a potent combination. I fully admit that the Trapper line from days past was sub-par, but even then there were players who were able to do some impressive things with it. My sense is that the opposition to this line is more based on gut then experience.

My input: Im on the fence about this really, i'm honestly not sure where to go or what to say about the trapper line.

5) Induction/focus crit and power legacies are consolidated, one for crit, one for power
I'd like to make a pass on Legacies, but I can't promise when. The fact remains that Hunter DPS is high, and consolidation will push it higher, so it's a difficult place to be in. In previous Hunter updates the class was behind the curve, allowing me to hand out buffs more freely.

My input: I think this would be a good idea to consider, but also at the same time consider reducing the +25% damage down to +20% for both focus/induction? And possibly slightly increase the power reduction? Theres plenty of ways this could be looked at.

6) Scale and/or update Heartseeker and Shot Through The Heart
Can you be more specific? Do you mean damage increase? Cause Heartseeker seems just fine to me...

My input: I think the point they were trying to make was increase the damage of shot through the heart, while I currently trait and use this i'm still getting around what I was pre-isen for critical/dev/normal shot through the heart hits.

7) Ranged Interrupt
Sorry, Hunters will not be getting an additional Interrupt.

My input: I wish this would be reconsidered, bards arrow/distracting shot only do so much against something ranged. Take for instance the blackarrows, maybe an implication of what they have? Add a longer CD but have it only effect ranged targets?

8) Buff Quickshot (on the move, no induction and/or stanceless slow)
Unlikely to see significant change here. Induction-less was attempted during beta and it was too problematic to stay around. As for on the move, such a change would need to be paired with a range reduction, or a reduction in the potency of the Hunters slows. This is not a direction we are planning on moving in.

My input: I was hoping this wouldnt be the case. I pvp quite a bit, and after seeing the skirmisher stance I wouldnt mind giving up some range for that type of power with zero inductions. Since stances are no longer tied to a trait line directly this could be implemented fairly easily and give us a way to counter them at their own game(pvp wise at least). Increase the focus cost for penetrating shot(while moving), keep the focus cost for bloodarrow(since you can shoot while on the move currently), bar heart seeker from being used in this stance, remove the induction for quickshot and slow for added critical chance, have the stance generate 1 focus point every 5 seconds while in the stance. Theres plenty that could be done here and I honestly feel it should be a consideration.

9) Blindside's interrupt comes at the beginning of the animation
Will do, absolutely.

My input: Thank you!! I agree completely!

10) Needful Haste's pre-ROI duration is restored
If Needful Haste is not worth using in the new state, it can be buffed.

My input: I think that needful haste's duration should be increased by default to at least 20 seconds. The extra 5 seconds would help out immensely. If the duration isnt extended possibly the reduction in inductions should be increased more?

These are very vague ideas that I think would better the class and give it a more level playing field. I think the class could use some work for sure, hopefully this is actually read and taken seriously. Hope I helped in some way :]

[Aestiliat]

Good thread. I'll give my thoughts on the top 10.

1) Bright Campfire is changed to provide more In-combat and OOC buffs
The OOC regen amounts were nearly doubled in the last update, but I'll take another look at them. In-combat is an interesting idea, perhaps wrap this into the Trapper Line somehow...

In Combat could be great indeed

2) Hunter's Art is changed
My thought for Hunters Art are:

• Slightly increase damage
• Re-work buff a little: Now lasts for 30 seconds. Instead of stacking multiple effects, it now tiers up and refreshes duration, much like a RK's Writs.
  
  • Stance: Endurance: +20% Target Attack Duration for 30s
  • Stance: Precision: +792 Finesse Rating for 30s
  • Stance: Strength: +5% Ranged Damage for 30s
  (Animation is shorter: you fire a blue lightning arrow)
  
  

3) Split Shot is changed
My thoughts for Split shot are:

• Stop the additional target legacy from effecting it (This was added near the end of beta, and was the reason the damage and radius had to be reduced, the skill was just WAY too strong. Removing the legacy lets us make the skill more exciting in other ways...)
• Modify it to give +1 focus per target hit
• Slightly increase radius
• Slightly increase damage
  
  Great
  

4) Adjust or blow up the Trapper Line
I'm really hesitant here. The amount of CC and fellowship-damage buffs in the line, plus the complete removal of the old damage penalties, and loosening of the stance restrictions, makes for a potent combination. I fully admit that the Trapper line from days past was sub-par, but even then there were players who were able to do some impressive things with it. My sense is that the opposition to this line is more based on gut then experience.


*Traits Updates:

Sturdy Traps: The damage of your traps and snares is increased by 30%.

Spring Loaded Traps: -(Level × 15) Armour Value

Barbed Hindrance: In addition to its normal effect your Barbed Arrow roots your foe for a short time; 4s Root;50% break chance on damage after 1s

Heart of the Bard : A successful use of Bard's Arrow will reset cooldowns of Distracting shot, Dazing blow and Cry of the predator.


*Bonus set :

2 Equipped:
The damage of your traps and snares is increased by 20% and Trap Skills are now instant
3 Equipped:
-30s Trap Skill Cooldowns
Improved Piercing trap effect is now applied to all traps and do not breack the root effect of the traps while it last : [levelx2] shadow damage every 2 seconds for 20 seconds
4 Equipped:
Swift bow and Split shot can be fire on the move
+ [levelx5] moral
Distracting shot, Cry of the predator and Bard arrow : + 10% target miss chance for 20 secondes (cumulative)



5) Induction/focus crit and power legacies are consolidated, one for crit, one for power
I'd like to make a pass on Legacies, but I can't promise when. The fact remains that Hunter DPS is high, and consolidation will push it higher, so it's a difficult place to be in. In previous Hunter updates the class was behind the curve, allowing me to hand out buffs more freely.

6) Scale and/or update Heartseeker and Shot Through The Heart
Can you be more specific? Do you mean damage increase? Cause Heartseeker seems just fine to me...

7) Ranged Interrupt
Sorry, Hunters will not be getting an additional Interrupt.

Why ? We are a ranged dps class, we should be able to ranged interrupt ! Throw away another of our interrupt and give us a logical one.

8) Buff Quickshot (on the move, no induction and/or stanceless slow)
Unlikely to see significant change here. Induction-less was attempted during beta and it was too problematic to stay around. As for on the move, such a change would need to be paired with a range reduction, or a reduction in the potency of the Hunters slows. This is not a direction we are planning on moving in.

Quickshot MUST be a real quick shot: no induction, on the move but with less damage maybe

9) Blindside's interrupt comes at the beginning of the animation
Will do, absolutely.

10) Needful Haste's pre-ROI duration is restored
If Needful Haste is not worth using in the new state, it can be buffed.

great, restore the duration buff


The topics I'm most interested in hearing feedback about are my ideas on Split Shot and Hunters Art, and to hear from players who used to use Trapper before RoI, and how they feel the line has changed since.

Edit: Just to clarify, things I'm talking about here are potentials for Update 6. Update 5 is very much put to bed at this point.

Ok, these are my suggestions for hunter. Plus : no more big yellow cross when HS is used

And
Improved Fleetness should now activated when you enter Precision stance and remains activate as long as you are in Precision with 5 traits in the Way of The Huntsman line slotted.

[Estranger]

I see your point but cant really sympathize since as a Warg my best crit on a non-heavy class is 1.3K. Heavy classes there is zero chance for me to ever crit (or dev) above 1K given current Freep Heavy Armor mitigations. However, Champions can easily crit for 2-4K on a fully armored (Shadow Howler) Warg.

Hunters aren't heavy classes so can't see why we should care in these forums. Champ and/or creep forums are that way --->

Anyway, I will be watching this thread.

I can imagine losing a cheap sorce of infamy would be quite disconcerting.

[kballard]

Ok, I realize that I am in the minority of the hunter community when it comes to CC. Of course run dps about 90% of the time, but when it comes to raid trash, I often go CC and trait back for the boss. (As of OD that is) During the days of OD, CC was pretty crucial on T2 since no one could just take the hits of all the mobs, especially the trash leading up to Ivar. During the Beta, CC is necessary for some T2 trash, especially acid wing. Now, I realize that LM and burgs are pretty darn good at cc, but dps is never lacking in my raids, so I often go CC to make the trash go smoother to avoid wipes. So I do utilize it.

In regards to its potency, hunter CC is becoming one of the best whether you realize it or not. I have made a 3rd age CC bow for when I go CC and the legacies are: -evade rating(major), -block rating(major), - distracting shot resist (minor), - distracting cd (minor). Get these maxed out for a CC bow it it looks pretty good for a hunter. With traits we then have a 30s mez on 15s cd with DS (also to add it has a SUPER low chance of being resisted with the legs), 20s fear on 30s cd (25s cd with new hunter set) with Bards Arrow, 5s daze on 50s cd with Dazing Blow (with rapid recovery traited), in combat traps on 30s cd, Rain of thorns on 3m cd, and cry of the predator is pretty situational but great for breaking cc shields in OD for disease wing. This of course disregards all our slows with barbed hindrance, quick shot (in strength), and low cut. What this means is that I can perma cc two mobs (not in the new raid obviously due to resistance of repeated cc :P) and hold a third most of the time if one of them is a beast. But I can easily hold down two, which makes my raids go much cleaner.

Is it necessary, usually not unless we are short on CC, but I like to lead/participate in clean raids with no wipes and hunter cc contributes ALOT to it with OD and later (excluding Draigloch). But we shall see how useful it is in the Tower since CC shields have been replaced with repeated CC immunity. But I will grant that most of the time, the CC line is not used, and I am one of very few hunters that has actually taken the time to create a CC bow, max it out and use it in raids...

[Balagast]

Ok, I realize that I am in the minority of the hunter community when it comes to CC. Of course run dps about 90% of the time, but when it comes to raid trash, I often go CC and trait back for the boss. (As of OD that is) During the days of OD, CC was pretty crucial on T2 since no one could just take the hits of all the mobs, especially the trash leading up to Ivar. During the Beta, CC is necessary for some T2 trash, especially acid wing. Now, I realize that LM and burgs are pretty darn good at cc, but dps is never lacking in my raids, so I often go CC to make the trash go smoother to avoid wipes. So I do utilize it.

In regards to its potency, hunter CC is becoming one of the best whether you realize it or not. I have made a 3rd age CC bow for when I go CC and the legacies are: -evade rating(major), -block rating(major), - distracting shot resist (minor), - distracting cd (minor). Get these maxed out for a CC bow it it looks pretty good for a hunter. With traits we then have a 30s mez on 15s cd with DS (also to add it has a SUPER low chance of being resisted with the legs), 20s fear on 30s cd (25s cd with new hunter set) with Bards Arrow, 5s daze on 50s cd with Dazing Blow (with rapid recovery traited), in combat traps on 30s cd, Rain of thorns on 3m cd, and cry of the predator is pretty situational but great for breaking cc shields in OD for disease wing. This of course disregards all our slows with barbed hindrance, quick shot (in strength), and low cut. What this means is that I can perma cc two mobs (not in the new raid obviously due to resistance of repeated cc :P) and hold a third most of the time if one of them is a beast. But I can easily hold down two, which makes my raids go much cleaner.

Is it necessary, usually not unless we are short on CC, but I like to lead/participate in clean raids with no wipes and hunter cc contributes ALOT to it with OD and later (excluding Draigloch). But we shall see how useful it is in the Tower since CC shields have been replaced with repeated CC immunity. But I will grant that most of the time, the CC line is not used, and I am one of very few hunters that has actually taken the time to create a CC bow, max it out and use it in raids...

We used to have Hunters CC trash in OD as well and then go retrait. Honestly I thought they were quite useful for this and I found it to be quite entertaining.

[Tamiya]

Can everyone who thinks the proposed change to Split Shot "great" elaborate why?

The only problem with the skill is its radius. The proposed change is reducing the max targets of the skill from 8 to 3, and that's with huntsman, without it's 2. I fail to see how that is great.

We used to have Hunters CC trash in OD as well and then go retrait. Honestly I thought they were quite useful for this and I found it to be quite entertaining.

It's fun because it's a change of pace and playstyle for the hunter.

The comment that most other hunters have been making is that the line is unnecessary, which is also true.

In OD, with a couple of hunters, you can Rain of Thorns everything to remove anger and keep everything rooted long enough to clear the majority of a pull with maxed out DPS traits before the root even expires, and if any additional CC was needed in the raid, you should have other classes like LMs and burgs and even minstrels to distribute the CC duties to. It just makes a dedicated CC line redundant most of the time.

The AOE poison removal is also useless, because it comes with a hefty cooldown. In spider wing, it's safer for everyone to pot and have the hunters single-target cure on demand, which works any raid member regardless of fellowship, and the hunters get to go all out DPS after the poison is cleared.

If ToF's meant to be a utility line, it needs to have more enhanced utility than just CC and a band-aid AOE Poison Cure, because even without ToF, hunters already have adequate CC and Poison Cure.

[PurebloodWorg]

Hunters aren't heavy classes so can't see why we should care in these forums. Champ and/or creep forums are that way --->



I can imagine losing a cheap sorce of infamy would be quite disconcerting.

True but it is relevant to the discussion because in essence you are saying "omg I only crit the heaviest armored Creep for 2K".

And given that Hunters are always tracking my Warg I need to keep things in perspective around here.

*waves to Zombie Columbus

[Nuth_KM]

True but it is relevant to the discussion because in essence you are saying "omg I only crit the heaviest armored Creep for 2K".

And given that Hunters are always tracking my Warg I need to keep things in perspective around here.

*waves to Zombie Columbus

Considering I hit ANY creep class for no more than 1800-2800 on Heartseeker, regardless of their armored class, I definitely invite perspective. Especially since my so-called "most damaging" shot hits for the same damage a Blackarrow hits me for... yeah, let's discuss perspective. I'd also invite any of the developers to check my damage logs ... for additional "perspective".

[PurebloodWorg]

Considering I hit ANY creep class for no more than 1800-2800 on Heartseeker, regardless of their armored class, I definitely invite perspective. Especially since my so-called "most damaging" shot hits for the same damage a Blackarrow hits me for... yeah, let's discuss perspective. I'd also invite any of the developers to check my damage logs ... for additional "perspective".

I believe this is called "Legolas Syndrome"

When a Hunter thinks he should be able to one-shot any opponent, PVE or PVP

(And how dare a Blackarrow ever crit as much as a Hunter! may the gods forbid it )

I will be watching this thread ( in stealth )

Please dont Heartseeker me !