A few points on Warden DPS

[Harc]

Hey guys. I just got back recently so I don't know if this is old news by now...

I was parsing my DPS with combatanalysis and I found three things:
1. Spear, Spear, Deft Strike and repeat gives awful DPS

• A warden told me in the game that everyone knows this gives the best DPS. I was surprised and tried it out. It doesn't. It gave me pathetic dps.

2. Potency does not add much dps

• I used the BM double WT rotation. The problem I saw was that the double spear builder is not like other masteries in that it takes one tick* (equivalent of a basic builder) to execute. Add to this the fact that deft strike takes another tick (compounded by the fact that the builder does no damage and the gambit does the lowest tier damage), and you have a significant loss in DPS.
• Using BM seemed to me like gambling. With my 10% misses (not counting BPE), WT or deft strike not hitting took a huge hit on my DPS. The only time I came out clearly on top was really if WT critted.
• On the whole, after 15 minutes of parsing, I got around 20 extra DPS through potency**, which I think is kind of ridiculous considering each execution costs me over 650 points of morale. On the plus side, I was slightly better off on power.
• However, potency gave me a much higher top end damage when everything went right. A big part of potency's problem is related to the next thing I found.

3. The Improved Javelin throw bleed does not benefit Mighty Blow

• This was probably mentioned before (I can't see how it was missed), but it got me by surprise. I thought Orion said the low bleed from the Javelin could be used by Mighty Blow. Instead, the jav gives a "Minor Bleed" and does not effect MB.
• The "Minor Bleed" does not effect Power Attack
• When you consider the time it takes to enable BM (roughly equivalent to 2 javelin throws for half the damage) you may*** want to consider throwing in a power attack instead like in the old days since that will give your MB a bonus. Why not do both? Because then our best attack waits on CD too long.
• UPDATE: Try PA-MB combo instead of MB-US (1-23, 12-31 vs 1-2-31, 1-23-12) and use the extra time to throw some javs or do an extra onslaught. I was getting slightly better numbers with it (not enough tests to be sure). I might test it out some more until our jav bleed/MB gets looked at.

I was rather underwhelmed at how our DPS scaled. But then I don't have a second age DPS set so I'll hold off any comparisons of pre-RoI till later. Again, I'm not sure if all this is common knowledge, but I thought that I might post this in case anyone missed it like me.

*All tests were done on the training dummy. I had to be careful of when to put the bleeds because the dummy clears them.
** This number is not the average but the mode (or rather average of the mode-like range). This number is also remarkably close to the calculations before RoI launched that potency would only give around 30 extra DPS. What sucks is that at 75, 20 dps is more pathetic than 30 at 65.
*** I'm not saying it's better but it's not really worse either.

[Smuff]

Tbh, I thought everyone knew that the only sensible rotation was;

Wardens triumph
Power attack
Mighty blow
Unerring strike
onslaught
repeat...

With the exception of positional WoF and some javelin tosses for the dot.

I never ever bother using potency on damage skills.

Javelin-toss is around 800-1000 damage now with the broken 'damage type' dot, so its quite good to use atleast whilst running to the mob. Don't know if its WAI or not.

However with all the misses, the stacking bleeds in a specific order can get quite irritation if lets say MB misses. If that happens I do MB again and reset the rotation and skip unerring strike for that rotation

[luapremylc]

Wardens triumph
Power attack
Mighty blow
Unerring strike
onslaught
repeat...

I used to use this rotation too. One thing I've been playing around with recently, though, is using the [21] Mastery for defensive strike to set up a BM WT rather than the onslaught. So it'll go something like this:

2[21] Defensive Strike
1[32][13] WT
(BM WT)
1[23] Power Attack
12[31] Mighty Blow
[12]312 Unerring Strike
repeat

I haven't had the chance to parse the difference in these rotations, but it seems like the Potency helps boost DPS a bit here. The bonus of using DS is that 2[21] can be executed pretty fast and that it is a guaranteed hit (will always proc Potency) unlike the other two double gambits. YMMV.

[Harc]

Tbh, I thought everyone knew that the only sensible rotation was;

Wardens triumph
Power attack
Mighty blow
Unerring strike
onslaught
repeat...

Interesting. The rotation you posted was the rotation I tested vs
Deft Strike
WT
WT
PA
MB
Onslaught
(another onslaught or a couple javs)

vs
Deft Strike
WT
WT
MB
US
Onslaught

Of the three, the one with the highest DPS was the second one, but only by a ridiculously small margin.

The fact that a lot of wardens don't even bother with potency shows how impotent it is.

[Harc]

I used to use this rotation too. One thing I've been playing around with recently, though, is using the [21] Mastery for defensive strike to set up a BM WT rather than the onslaught. So it'll go something like this:

2[21] Defensive Strike
1[32][13] WT
(BM WT)
1[23] Power Attack
12[31] Mighty Blow
[12]312 Unerring Strike
repeat

I haven't had the chance to parse the difference in these rotations, but it seems like the Potency helps boost DPS a bit here. The bonus of using DS is that 2[21] can be executed pretty fast and that it is a guaranteed hit (will always proc Potency) unlike the other two double gambits. YMMV.

I'd like to try that out tomorrow. Does Defensive Strike always proc potency even when traited red?

[Zed2]

Interesting. The rotation you posted was the rotation I tested vs
Deft Strike
WT
WT
PA
MB
Onslaught
(another onslaught or a couple javs)

vs
Deft Strike
WT
WT
MB
US
Onslaught

Of the three, the one with the highest DPS was the second one, but only by a ridiculously small margin.

The fact that a lot of wardens don't even bother with potency shows how impotent it is.

Yeah, I also don't really use potency for what I thought it was supposed to be... I seem to recall Orion saying it would be a big factor in our dps.

The only good use I've found for it is to store an interrupt... i.e. Defensive Strike, Boot, then go about my business tanking or dps'ing knowing that I've got a quick interrupt ready to go at any time. Using Boot means it has a low morale cost. The nice thing about this is that you can instantly execute the BM interrupt even if you happen to be in the middle of building a different gambit.

[petaloudas00]

The fact that a lot of wardens don't even bother with potency shows how impotent it is.

its cause of the penalty.

But i never understood why potency has a penalty :/

[luapremylc]

I'd like to try that out tomorrow. Does Defensive Strike always proc potency even when traited red?

I'm almost positive that it does. I haven't been running spear traited much recently (preferring to go 5B2R for more survivability - whatever I can do to offset the hole we're in currently), so I could be wrong on that. But if I remember right, all 3 double gambits will proc potency if you're traited deep enough in any trait line. The bonus to DS is that it will proc even if the DS attack itself misses; the other two double gambits will not proc potency if they miss.

[cmal]

I'm almost positive that it does. I haven't been running spear traited much recently (preferring to go 5B2R for more survivability - whatever I can do to offset the hole we're in currently), so I could be wrong on that. But if I remember right, all 3 double gambits will proc potency if you're traited deep enough in any trait line. The bonus to DS is that it will proc even if the DS attack itself misses; the other two double gambits will not proc potency if they miss.

Only procs potency if it hits the target. If you miss, no potency. I always use sh-sh mastery, defensive strike always gives potency.

[luapremylc]

Only procs potency if it hits the target. If you miss, no potency. I always use sh-sh mastery, defensive strike always gives potency.

Right. I guess my wording was vague. Let me try and phrase this better. Assuming you are traited deep enough in any trait line, the following applies:

Goad and Deft Strike - will only proc potency if the attack lands on the mob.
Defensive Strike - will always proc potency, whether the attack lands or not.

[ReDot]

. . .
Wardens triumph
Power attack
Mighty blow
Unerring strike
onslaught
repeat...
. . .

Well, this is exactly what I found to be the best DPS rotation. But still didnt find optimal use of spear builder and masteries... mind sharing yours?

Tnx in adv

[Smuff]

I do;

WT - Sp (FiSh) (SpFi)
PA - Sp (ShFi)
MB - Sp Sh (FiSp)
US - Sp Sh Fi (SpSh)
OS - Sp (ShSp)

Could also be done by doing power attack fully manual and then doing unerring with Sp (ShFi)(SpSh).

This takes exactly 15 seconds, so the first masteries are off cooldown when you repeat right away. Assuming you are not in recklessness with the legacy and don't have any attack duration buff active on you.

[Bels_illuminati]

Personally I rarely PvE dps (certaintly not in situations where I can perform full rotations for any length of time).

On landscape now 75 geared most mobs die within one or two gambits at most (ambush>jav toss>crit strike>wages>random dmg gambit>dead).
For the moors there is no such thing as a rotation ofc!

I need to parse some raid DPS runs, it FEELS like we do some pretty nice single target damage (considering pretty much everything crits over 1k in groups (even quick thrust builder ^^)) and with a Cappy and a couple of burgs we can build to crit... a lot. I'm seeing close to 5k crits on Wages and WT in groups, with regular 2k power attack hits (not including the extra removal damage). This coupled with our ability to sustain Recklessness from a power point of view in groups (insane attack speed - which also means a LOT of critting) does give us nice, and unrelenting single target dmg.

As I say I'll parse the next Raid DPS run (doesn't happen often) and post some numbers, will be interesting.

[ReDot]

Tnx Smuff, appreciate it.

... For the moors there is no such thing as a rotation ofc! ...

Well, OK, but still... I'm pretty sure there is some kind of pattern that you/we follow with on-the-fly modifications according to situation... no?

Most of time if possible I will start with CS/ambush +jav toss, charging in and building WT with (SpFi)(ShSp)Fi (already in range for it), followed by PA=Sp(ShFi), MB=(SpSh)(FiSp) and OS=Sp(ShSp). And any jav skill I find. And repeat... Of course, there are some situational modifications but still this is my pattern.

Am I doing something wrong?

Tnx for helping noob

[Bels_illuminati]

Tnx Smuff, appreciate it.



Well, OK, but still... I'm pretty sure there is some kind of pattern that you/we follow with on-the-fly modifications according to situation... no?

Most of time if possible I will start with CS/ambush +jav toss, charging in and building WT with (SpFi)(ShSp)Fi (already in range for it), followed by PA=Sp(ShFi), MB=(SpSh)(FiSp) and OS=Sp(ShSp). And any jav skill I find. And repeat... Of course, there are some situational modifications but still this is my pattern.

Am I doing something wrong?

Tnx for helping noob

Well that opening roation is of course beneficial and it's good to find the optimum ambush opening. But as soon as the opponent is off the floor, or worse if they start the fight then you're spending as much time adapting to what they're doing as focusing on your own rotation and disrupting theirs.

Personally I prefer to get the bleeds going before WT, as the bleeds are constant damage even when (inevitably) you get slowed and stunned etc. That leaves me open to build a double WT with potency to hopefully finish the fight once we recover from the initial stun/slow. I find that due to the WT animation you'd be lucky to get off one bleed never mind two before the opponent is up, I also prefer to use double WT as my burst damage later on, but building Deft Strike on the run in from ambush I don't find to be optimum at all.

[Ravenstride]

I haven't actually done any parsing but im quite happy with DPS at the moment. I am still not fully geared for might / agility but that's what I dress for when not tanking. I'm usually traited 5R/2B (+block, MoS) and my rotation is:

22 - DS
1(32)(13) - WT
BM - WT
12(31) - MB
1(23)(12) - US
Javelin (bleed or piercer unless in position for WoF)

Rinse / Repeat

This is in recklessness with a semi-levelled legacy (-15% total I think) and a 2nd age "dps" spear.

On Draigh run yesterday I always had aggro on the claws and body to the point where the Hunter asked if im traited for tanking (whatever that means on a warden these days ). Notice I didn't even use Fi which might have added some threat.

Also, I hit BM during the first WT animation and they seem to blend a bit.

with the above setup I dont have time for (21) before (22) becomes active again so I didn't use it much. I'll have to change to using 2(21) as from what you're all saying its quicker. Once reason i still like (22) is that I can load it when moving from the first to the second claw.

[ReDot]

Agree with you on most parts and yes, this is what I do if I start fight. I can see your logic regarding ASAP bleeds and it makes sense. Will try it... tnx

I find that due to the WT animation you'd be lucky to get off one bleed never mind two before the opponent is up, I also prefer to use double WT as my burst damage later on, but building Deft Strike on the run in from ambush I don't find to be optimum at all.

Just saw your other PvP post and agree with 'panic moment' that you mention. And this is why I try to start with WT while they are down; to do my big hit + jav crit... maybe they'll panic

Oh, and I never mentioned Deft Strike

Tnx for tips

[Bels_illuminati]

Agree with you on most parts and yes, this is what I do if I start fight. I can see your logic regarding ASAP bleeds and it makes sense. Will try it... tnx



Just saw your other PvP post and agree with 'panic moment' that you mention. And this is why I try to start with WT while they are down; to do my big hit + jav crit... maybe they'll panic

Oh, and I never mentioned Deft Strike

Tnx for tips

Np!

It's just personal preference and experience really, the opponent plays a big part too. If it's some green creep I'll usually go potent double WT straight away as with a couple of crits it can actually kill the poor blighters

If it's one of the high ranked uber reavers on my server I will always do a bleed, due to them recovering anyway and the need to stay out of melee as much as possible. The slow is seriously importnat in these fights so I'll sacrifice a potentil DPS gambit to remain stationary for a split second when tossing Hampering Jav.

Likewise a Warg always requires a bleed rotation first and then nukes afterwards