What is new in the store, armors?????

[stubarney1969]

buy or not buy that is peoples choice.

I can solo and do instances fine without store bought pots and stat tomes.

the test will come if new areas or instance clusters are developed that require store bought items.

As it stands store bought gives a minor advantage but not essential at the moment

Unless that is you are a hardcore raider who looks down from their godly position on any whose stats or gear is inferior to their uber gear

[Sansarah]

Was soll man denn gewinnen mit diesen Klamotten? Sind doch wirklich nur für Neu-Charaktere interessant. Bis dann schon nach ziemlich kurzer Zeit die Waren im AH, und selbst bei den abgeschlossenen Quests, viel wertiger sind.

(da kann man beispielsweise beim MMO "Shaiya" GANZ andere Kaliber käuflich erwerben)

[JLG3247]

I just want to point out that I do get it...it's a business and they are trying to make money, but it's our money...my money. Don't sit there and pretend that you care or that this is a community. Stop playing these games with us (or i know at least i will stop playing this one of yours!) and just come out and tell us to [expletive] and everything is fair game. Stringing us along is dangerous. I know you have an army of lawyers, but in this society, you can sue over anything...the right judge and jury (or wrong, from your perspective) comes along and you have a class action suit...EULA or not. People trusted you and put their faith in you.

I don't know why I am even wasting my time. Nothing will be done. This will come and go and a new thing will pop up. People will forget about it. Some great announcement will be made and the smoke and mirrors will work. Tuesday is an update. In the news cycle, this is why this development came about when it did and not at the same time or a day later. Voices that speak up will be silenced, either by screaming themselves hoarse or because they've left the room. What a great teaching tool this is for high schoolers to show them why this world we are leaving them stinks so bad. Anything to make a buck, even if it drives you out of business later. No sustainability there...because we're not even sure we'll be around later anyway...let's see how much more blood we can squeeze out of the rocks. Honestly...any of our money refundable?

EASY there Tiger! back away from the ledge! Back away from the ledge! Beep beep beep!

I think it smells rotten too but I guess not having money of that magnitude invested makes me a little less disgusted? I also haven't been playing that long and only got introduced to the game by my hubby, father (lifetime sub!), sister and sister's friend. Personally-not surprised in the least. As you say - it is a business. They can't say they didn't lie though. Everything sounds like an excuse and wow do I hate excuses.

Seriously though - don't let them get you too upset. Not worth it. The stress I mean. We are all on your side! By we I mean the gamers. Trust fall!

[BellusDuFenna]

Hmmm...

I'd decided I wasn't going to post on the LOTRO Forums anymore, just lurk occassionally and drop +Rep on posts I found deserving of such, but I simply have to comment on this thread.

First of all, after reading all 18 pages of this thread so far, I'd like to say that I am very proud of the LOTRO Community I have seen here today. While the vast majority of the posters herein are quite opposed to this change, they have been quite mature, reasonable, and measured in their responses. This is the sort of topic that on any other MMO forum that would have people climbing up clocktowers, but not here. That's something to be commended.

Now then, I don't think after 18 pages of feedback there is really anything I could add that hasn't been said already, and most likely more eloquently than I could ever do. Of course I am against this change, I feel it is the final step that takes LOTRO from Free-to-Play" into full-on "Pay-to-Win" territory, and this will not be the end of this downward spiral. But know this: The change is set in stone now. For those asking that Turbine reverse its decision, I don't think that is possible now. The word slipped out on Friday, and the patch that enacts it launches Tuesday. It is far too late to change the patch now, most likely, even if Turbine were willing to do so.

My wife and I stopped playing LOTRO after the forum breach fiasco, and I had no intention to cover LOTRO again on my video podcast, but now I feel I really must say something about this on my show. As I cover the MMO industry overall, this news is simply too large to ignore.

This is a sad day. Turbine, I am truly disappointed in you, and I feel bad for the community left in this game.

[Ardineck]

EASY there Tiger! back away from the ledge! Back away from the ledge! Beep beep beep!

I think it smells rotten too but I guess not having money of that magnitude invested makes me a little less disgusted? I also haven't been playing that long and only got introduced to the game by my hubby, father (lifetime sub!), sister and sister's friend. Personally-not surprised in the least. As you say - it is a business. They can't say they didn't lie though. Everything sounds like an excuse and wow do I hate excuses.

Seriously though - don't let them get you too upset. Not worth it. The stress I mean. We are all on your side! By we I mean the gamers. Trust fall!

Thanks. I do get on a roll sometimes and it can be hard to slow down. I am clearly upset, but I am also still thinking clearly. It FEELS like they led us on. As if they thought we would be less likely to have complained earlier during the change to the F2P model if they made that promise ("just tell 'em anything...WE WON'T SELL GEAR...whatever...something to keep 'em off our backs"). People were outraged even then. People defended them ("They promised us they won't sell gear! Don't overreact!"). People shot back ("We'll see. Just wait"). I really just feel duped. They were always gonna do this at some point, it appears. It was way too easy for them to cross that line whether or not the reasoning is truly what they claim it to be.

This one goes in the "conspiracy theorists" win column. I mean, really...how many people were laughed at for having what turned out to be the correct foresight while others sat back and ate up the PR poisoned candy? Even now there are those that are saying "it's no big deal, it's just low level stuff" like those people who said "they're not selling gear with stats on it, it's no big deal" way back at the dawn of this thing. It is possible that this is just a one time thing, but ow did that saying go that GWB messed up so famously? "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

[Kylani]

It's lower level gear. Many players have given us feedback that there is a sparcity of gear on the AH at these levels and they wanted an alternative. We're trying to accomodate that.
So, I applaud your decision to kick start the gear market on your server. Options are what it's all about.

Lower levels complain about sparcity of gear, so the only option Turbine can see is to add gear to the store? You can have more decent gear drop, add it to ingame vendors, allow the gear to be crafted cheaper/easier. Yet Turbine wants to 'help' the player out by adding it to the store.

This is so unbelievably lame and a sad statement about what the game has become.

[Grimbran]

So there's stat tomes that can add up to 70 to a stat? When you can already get +1000, +1200, +1500 or more just from gear alone? So there's some old relics with that little touch extra you desperately want to keep, for every last bit of potential? That still doesn't mean you couldn't operate just as fine without. One shouldn't mistake their own incapability to control their min-maxing thirsts for a company 'forcing' them to do anything. That's no more valid an argument than to say 'oh, McDonald's is FORCING me to eat their food by making it so delicious'.

Thank you for putting it so well! This is exactly the root of the "pay2win" crowd's problem. They are so obsessed with min/maxing that they see *every* possible option for minor stat gain as mandatory.(when it isn't mandatory at all.)


@OnyxSoulbane: Your post seems like a textbook example of fearmongering and Doom-N-Gloom prediction. So to boil your post down to its key point you seem to be making: you feel that although you can't point out a concrete way it is pay2win (or so pay-centric that you can't enjoy play without it) at present, you are certain it will be in the future.

I can't predict the future, but it isn't that way at present and I hope that it never does happen. At least WB/Turbine seem to be making very small steps in testing what players will/wont pay for and what will/wont anger us.

[Ku_Ku]

As a new player to LOTRO myself I can answer the 'Do newbies really find it that hard to get armour' with a resounding 'NO!'


It may be different for players who have not played a MMO before but for people who are just dipping their toes in the waters of lotro after years of other games it was simple logic to craft my own armour...

There are easy to find beasts that dropped the hides I need that cluster in groups (wolf packs, pig herds etc) so I can simply wade in bash lots and wade out with my arms full of skins...


Even if I had decided not to do this, armour drops off humanoid monsters like flies and there is always stuff going in the AH, so really I think turbine are either fooling themselves that there is a big demand (I mean... really new to the game not sure you want to spend any money on it yet... what is the first thing you are going to be tempted into buying anyway? Its likely to be something far more useful than armour you will out-level in a heartbeat!) or this is a stepping stone to other higher level items...

[Turukano]

Turbine purges their post pledging convenience not advantage after putting store only relics for sale[/URL]
Interesting stuff and all.
They haven't removed this one yet:

Will I still be able to play and enjoy the game without buying items from the LOTRO Store, or is that my only option for gaining weapons, armor, potions, and other goodies such as premium loot?

The purchase of items in the LOTRO Store is entirely optional. While items in the Store are designed to immediately enhance your in-game experience, premium loot and rare gear are the rewards of adventure and are only obtainable through gameplay.

www.lotro.com/betasignup/faq.html

[Derethil]

Seriously, I'm out. Goodbye Turbine. -.-

[Ardineck]

I tried to think of how the players could combat this in game, but adding it to the store was a stroke of sneaky genius.

The only way to keep new players who don't know about better options from buying it would be...there is no way.

Swamp the AH with cheap gear...if they are looking on the AH for that gear, aren't they already a slightly smarter class of player? Couldn't that person find someone on the forums or in game to craft them gear, show them the way or get the gear themselves? Its not like we can advertise at all times in game "don't fall for the points purchasing in the store, we'll sell it to you cheap!" the player it is best targeted at doesn't know about GLFF...doesn't know to look to the forums...doesn't even look in the AH...where DO they look? There is plenty of advertising all over the place for a "quick" way to add to your experience...the LotRO store, of course! Not only does Turbine get to advertise nonstop, it's very easy for them to direct traffic there. Meanwhile, we'd have to organize people to not just keep the AH stocked but be on the lookout for low level players 24/7 because they can access the store from ANYWHERE. We can't show everyone the ropes. Many low level players might actually be intimidated by kins if it's their first MMO experience. I was. How can we help players better than we are if there are truly players that have actually complained directly to Turbine about not having better gear available in the store for their early characters rather than look to the community in some way shape or form? How is that happening? Well, I don't think it is, but that's beside the point here.

We can "not purchase" it all we want (because we know better) but if you don't know better, then there is no cure to that ignorance. It's possible that if you aren't race of man you don't even know about auction houses unless you stumble into one and check it out. Men and women start out in archet where following the Breeland story MIGHT eventually mean you do the Bree tour and get sent to the AH there...you still might skip it.

Very tricky...no way for us to stop it...just the right testing ground...players NOT savvy enough, but JUST savvy enough.

[Andilos]

Having seen that Turbine keeps breaking their promises about the store over and over, with the recent addition of low level stat armour its the last straw. Sure the armour isn't end game stuff but if this is allowed what prevents Turbine to add end game armour and stuff. Also an issue is that when Turbine releases content it contains a long list of known and unknown bugs, sure i can understand its very difficult to make software bug free, but the sheer amount and severity of the bugs is great. To name the pit of iron as an example.

I had great fun over the last 4 years with lotro at Codemasters and then Turbine, but my journey is coming to the end. My sorrow in Turbine's Middle Earth has grown to greatly and I fear I have to set sail to the west. Perhaps I will venture into another MMO that hasn't yet introduced micro transactions.

Now because I have a lifetime sub I see no reason to cancel it as it doesn't give Turbine anything, but I can say Isengard will be the last 'Expansion' I have bought. And I will not buy anything from the store anymore even if its from the points I gather for being a lifetime member.

For what it's worth I hope Turbine will see what it has been doing and turn around before it is too late.

Be at peace my fellow travellers and may the light of Elbereth watch over you.

[Ryen]

Win may mean different things to different people, but "I WIN" if I get the tier 7 just from the store instead of spending hours trying to gain it the slow way. "I WIN" I get a scroll from the store instead of hoping that I don't have to replace a Legendary Weapon and redo all my relics all over again. "I WIN" button is available via the store to buy countless items that will improve your game play and "make you believe" you have won or play better.

If DarkCntry doesn't see this then its his/her own perception that needs analysis here. There are a lot of conveniences that the store makes available to save you time. Its a "I WIN" button no matter what way you see it. It doesn't do the game justice to have this store available for things that are not attainable in game - it makes the game become boring when things are attainable so quickly. It is a game nevertheless and we should all enjoy it by playing not using a short cut method to the store to feed our appetites when we are starved from doing something a long way.

[entername]

Seriously, I'm out. Goodbye Turbine. -.-

Seriously, i´m still having fun. Just ingore it and skip to the next page. Thank god, it´s not an Age of Conan-clone...

[Storionski]

OK this is insane. I also believe this is just a test so they can go further and further away of their original plan AKA NOT SELLING STUFF LIKE THAT IN STORE.

As I was always a bit of a fanboy and always defended their decision, now I cannot anymore. This is getting really awfull and I am getting more and more the feeling we are going to another game.....

To bad

It was not my intention to play Star Wars but seems they gave up allready and trying to get other kind of people addicted to this game instead of us. So for now I going to check Star thingy.

I just hope for you guys it will stop with this but ....

[Ardineck]

Having seen that Turbine keeps breaking their promises about the store over and over, with the recent addition of low level stat armour its the last straw. Sure the armour isn't end game stuff but if this is allowed what prevents Turbine to add end game armour and stuff. Also an issue is that when Turbine releases content it contains a long list of known and unknown bugs, sure i can understand its very difficult to make software bug free, but the sheer amount and severity of the bugs is great. To name the pit of iron as an example.

I had great fun over the last 4 years with lotro at Codemasters and then Turbine, but my journey is coming to the end. My sorrow in Turbine's Middle Earth has grown to greatly and I fear I have to set sail to the west. Perhaps I will venture into another MMO that hasn't yet introduced micro transactions.

Now because I have a lifetime sub I see no reason to cancel it as it doesn't give Turbine anything, but I can say Isengard will be the last 'Expansion' I have bought. And I will not buy anything from the store anymore even if its from the points I gather for being a lifetime member.

For what it's worth I hope Turbine will see what it has been doing and turn around before it is too late.

Be at peace my fellow travellers and may the light of Elbereth watch over you.

Kind of the same boat...it won't hit them until people stop renewing their subscriptions and stop buying Turbine Points. It is going to look like smooth sailing for them for a little while, but when the money stops coming in, they will be scratching their heads....wondering why things suddenly went south. They will be thinking about the recent content they added, while the subscribers will have been long gone. They already have my money, but they won't get any more from me. That's the only thing I can do to protest it that makes sense. Enjoy it, then when it comes time to spend more money, move on like the thief in the night. Mic drop and all. Peace! Year subscription seems kind of like a stupid birthday present to ask for now. Oh wow! Turbine ruined my birthday! Hah hah hah!

[Turukano]

I see strong similarities between the stories of Lotro and Lotr.
Turbine dwelt throught the mountains. Something was about to happen, that'd change the world of Lotro forever. Evil, that was long lost, was found that day. By Turbine in the mountains, it was like it came to him. The Store. The Store founds it way to Turbine and he took it with him. Turbine was in love on first sight, he could feel the power in it. Turbine started to use the power of the Store for Good and vowed to not use it for his own advantage, but for everyone's convenience.. The Store increased revenues and the playerbase in Lotro. The world of Lotro almost returned to the wealth it had when it was first created. Turbine and a lot of other inhabitants of Lotro loved the Store for it. But as the Store was crafted by Sauron himself it was bound to go wrong. And it did, slowly. The Store grew in power. Turbine did things he normally didn't, he started to use the Store for its own good. Some inhabitants of Lotro noticed this and began to worry. They came to the forum, the marketplace in this biggest city of Lotro: Lotro.com. On the forum they'd exchange their worries. Turbine didn't like that and he started to purge those who spoke ill of the Store.
During all this Turbine started to use the Store more for his own advantage and less for everyone's convenience. The crowd of unhappy inhabitants increased, but Turbine didn't listen. 'Hadn't the Store always do good for everyone? They should be grateful!' The vow, written in stone, was long gone.

Well, readers, I imagine you can guess where this is going.

Thank you for putting it so well! This is exactly the root of the "pay2win" crowd's problem. They are so obsessed with min/maxing that they see *every* possible option for minor stat gain as mandatory.(when it isn't mandatory at all.)

No, it's not about that at all.
I play only Creep and I'm furious about these changes about armour for low leveled freeps.

Some people will say it's only an extremely small advantage/convenience. I agree, this single step.
What those people fail to see is that they're doing step after step: tomes, relics, armour etc.
These people are blind to the process on the background.
If they had put all what's in the store now right when the store launched, there would've been a major uprising.
These people think of arguments to settle their own minds, because they WANT to love Lotro. As everyone knows: love makes blind.

[Bragard]

I am pretty new to lotr but not to life or gameing, i do have a few questions.

A. How do i win?

B. If somebody buys said armour, will this effect my lotr experience?

C(of topic) If patch notes contained the bad as well as good, would it show a strengh in their conviction and not a weakness that people sense and feel able to change devs minds?

D(of topic) Has anybody ever quit becasue they got bored and is spending lots of time on forums instead of in game the first signs of game drain?

[Ronigard]

My first response to the new store-bought gear was a gut reaction: this is wrong.

The past few hours I have been thinking about this, and wondered why I felt this way. And I started to wonder, why there was a little alarm bell ringing in my head.

The thing is, I used the phrase 'thin edge of the wedge'. And I hate this expression. HATE it. And yet, I used it.

I hate this expression because it is based on assumptions and extrapolations that at some 'inevitable' point along the line, the 'worst case scenario' becomes true.

This 'thin edge' in this case is the selling of low level gear with the intent of selling high level gear later on. After thinking about this objectively, I come to the conclusion that this does not make sense. I also think I understand why selling low level questing gear is a way to go. (I still don't agree with the solution, but I am less mad now).

The Story Problem
Lord of the Rings Online is a story based game. Turbine has implemented this story in such a way, that new chapters of it can only be added at the highest levels: it would be rather odd now for level 75 players to start doing books that are geared towards level 20 or level 40. And a level 40 player could not get to that hypothetical latest level 40 chapter without getting through the level 75 story.

The game is also getting on a bit in years. This means that more and more players are reaching the level cap and the end of the currently available story.

Turbine wants new players in the game, and at the same time keep the old guard happy. We are mostly in it for the story, so they must add stuff there.

But they also want new players to get to the 'new stuff'.

World of Warcraft had a similar problem, which they solved by adjusting the level curve. People got through the levels much faster and where even given access to mounts way earlier. All this to get people to the end, where the expansion content was.

For whatever reasaon, Turbine has chosen not to follow this solution. My guess is, they don't want people to skip most of the quests, since the leveling curve is already rather generous.

But they also want to get people over some 'humps' in the game, so they feel they can progress quicker, keep playing and get to the new stuff.

Turbine's solution
Turbine has now chosen 'bought gear' as a way to facilitate this. People who play very casually, are not in kinships and want to get through the lower levels faster without getting gimped can now buy their way out of this. The new gear is in a way an XP booster for a specific crowd of new players.I can sort of see this. I think it's an odd solution, but hey, it's a solution.

That thin edge thing
Now that infamous 'store raid gear' thing. I doubt that would happen for a very simple reason: the high end gear in the current game exists for one sole reason: to keep people playing until the next expansion/content update hits. So selling raid-equivalent gear in store would not help players forward in any way. There is no gated content that can be accessed with it. It would be utterly pointless. The low level gear serves a point, as I (ahum) pointed out: it helps players get through bits of content onward to the more lucrative higher end stuff, with quest packs and expansions to buy.

My conclusion
I think selling gear for whatever reason is a mistake because of the PR nightmare it brings about. People will not think further than 'Hey that is pay to win'. In essence it is not 'pay to win'. It's pay to skip. And that is something that the store has offered in numerous other ways.

But people will not see it that way. And that will damage the game.

So yeah, not so mad anymore about the gameplay implication. But *facepalm* about the PR ****storm that this will bring about.

[Brinswith]

World of Warcraft had a similar problem, which they solved by adjusting the level curve. People got through the levels much faster and where even given access to mounts way earlier. All this to get people to the end, where the expansion content was.

For whatever reasaon, Turbine has chosen not to follow this solution. My guess is, they don't want people to skip most of the quests, since the leveling curve is already rather generous.

A well spoken and thought out post, though my views on the whole thing are entirely on the negative side of the fence. However your post is somewhat spoiled by the huge error you made with the above statement.
Quite some time ago now Turbine did both things that you claim only Blizzard had done.
They altered the level curve and stated that the purpose of it was to get people to endgame faster.
They also lowered mount level requirements from 35 down to 5 (if you want to use the store) and to 20 if you are VIP and want to wait for a quest to get one.
To make your post a little better, you should really have left this comparison out as it is untrue.

[rockmonkeybrand]

First i would like to say thank to OP a very nice post regarding the changes coming.



There is actually two other threads already running like this http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...69#post5928369 is one.

My response is still the same....

Much as I would to condem the said introduction of certain items to the store and a reversal of original policy I can't. the store does keep revenue strong for further game development and also help new players to lotro have options to help boost thier charaters. now that max level is 75 it is a bit of a grind and time investemnt to get up there with the 'big boys'.

We may not like it but it is the way forwards.

Has for 'paytowin' it is more like payandhopetowin


Also i will add maybe with Items being sold via the store players will also realise the true value of crafted gear ( might beyond hope here)

[MaxDetroit]

First of all: I don't like to show off my armour, my weapons, my stuff. I don't need to measure with others, I don't PvP.

For me only one thing is still important in lotro. I want to play instances. Sometimes solo, but mostly with my kinship and with random groups. I like to team up with others, have a little chat, play my role as lore-master in a group. As long as I can find groups that let me join, as long as we have a chance without the shop, as long as we have challenge (that's the other side of the medal, the instances shouldn't get too easy with the help of the shop), and finally, simply, as long as these instances are fun to play without the shop. As long as these things are guaranteed, I have no problem with other players pimping up their chars.

In PvE, when I join a group where the tank has all stat tomes up to level 7 and some good shop relics - I don't care - or, even, yes, better for me, he has some etxra morale. As long as it is still a nice extra bonus, and nobody is forced to have vitaliy stat tome tier 7 to be accepted in groups as a tank, and without havong it it would get extremly difficult for the group - I don't care.

In the end, the way free 2 play should be done is that you can give players a 'prove of free play'. Means, you can really achieve everything without paying a cent, but having to invest lots of time instead. The balance is between time and money, as always in life. The stat tomes, from this perspektive, are way out of line, I agree. The time you need to gain this tomes out of playing is not measurable by any means. When Turbine changes the game further on in this direction, up to the point where, if you want to join a group and play with others, you have to invest months of gameplay or tons of money before - this game will be dead. You need to assure that F2P Players can always team up with paying customers, having at least the minimum requirements of gear and stats to be a good help in instances. Keep the time / money balance in order, leave the best items, weapons and armour in the game, as rewards for playing it. If turbine does this wrong, and create a big gap between casual / f2p players and hardcore players, that you can only get over with money or a ridicoulus amount time, as I said, this game will be dead (for me).

[Derethil]

I am pretty new to lotr but not to life or gameing, i do have a few questions.

A. How do i win?

B. If somebody buys said armour, will this effect my lotr experience?

C(of topic) If patch notes contained the bad as well as good, would it show a strengh in their conviction and not a weakness that people sense and feel able to change devs minds?

D(of topic) Has anybody ever quit becasue they got bored and is spending lots of time on forums instead of in game the first signs of game drain?

Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but seriously, even if you love M-E don't play LOTRO right now. I wish that you found the game sooner when it was a better thing... But now do not even try...
Most of us, in the forums, are the ones who quit but stayed on the forums to look for news...

[Bryos]

But they also want to get people over some 'humps' in the game, so they feel they can progress quicker, keep playing and get to the new stuff.

People who play very casually, are not in kinships and want to get through the lower levels faster without getting gimped can now buy their way out of this.

The lower levels are that difficult?


Are people really going to be so foolish as to pay 1040 TP for three pieces of armor that will last how long- a few levels?

[Eartholloth]

Win may mean different things to different people, but "I WIN" if I get the tier 7 just from the store instead of spending hours trying to gain it the slow way. "I WIN" I get a scroll from the store instead of hoping that I don't have to replace a Legendary Weapon and redo all my relics all over again. "I WIN" button is available via the store to buy countless items that will improve your game play and "make you believe" you have won or play better.

If DarkCntry doesn't see this then its his/her own perception that needs analysis here. There are a lot of conveniences that the store makes available to save you time. Its a "I WIN" button no matter what way you see it. It doesn't do the game justice to have this store available for things that are not attainable in game - it makes the game become boring when things are attainable so quickly. It is a game nevertheless and we should all enjoy it by playing not using a short cut method to the store to feed our appetites when we are starved from doing something a long way.

If people want to take short cuts playing this game that is there right to do so. Noone should be telling anyone else how they should be playing this game.