After Much Waiting...

[Acidburn_32]

The ONE and only important thing WE ie every single person owning a warden right now!!!! WANT is to become the MAIN tanks. ORION we want to become MAIN TANKS don't give us anything else just do this and we will respect you for life man!!
PLEASE

SAVE THE WARDEN!!!

.

[Erasluindor]

The ONE and only important thing WE ie every single person owning a warden right now!!!! WANT is to become the MAIN tanks. ORION we want to become MAIN TANKS don't give us anything else just do this and we will respect you for life man!!
PLEASE

SAVE THE WARDEN!!!

Personally im excited about the ranged dps thing! But yeah i agree that we pretty much all rolled wardens for tanking. Wait until the blog comes out with the shield gambits comes out. These should prove to be the making or breaking point of the class since Orion said in his last teaser that these will be the ones dealing with defense and crit defense. The extra evade from the fist gambits is just pure icing on the cake! When the shield gambits are released i guess well figure out what flavor cake.

[Galaxiana]

Warden’s Taunt
Deals nominal Light damage to a target at short range
Applies short Light bleed effect
Adds 2% to Block, Parry and Evade on successful hit (duration 20 seconds stacking up to 3 times)
5% chance to Slightly increase threat against targets

Is the light bleed absolutely necessary in this gambit-builder? In a day and age where we have to exercise careful control over where we place bleeds (e.g. Draigoch's claws, or bosses such as Flagit who get huge heals every single tick when their shield is up while a bleed is on them) having a forced bleed on a basic-builder is crippling. Even a really short, small bleed.

Maybe the Fist-builder could just do a bit more of one-time light damage instead?

Just $0.02 from someone who has been yelled at in raids for putting up bleeds when all I'm trying to do it use my gambit-builders.

[Iznogoot]

Is the light bleed absolutely necessary in this gambit-builder? In a day and age where we have to exercise careful control over where we place bleeds (e.g. Draigoch's claws, or bosses such as Flagit who get huge heals every single tick when their shield is up while a bleed is on them) having a forced bleed on a basic-builder is crippling. Even a really short, small bleed.

Maybe the Fist-builder could just do a bit more of one-time light damage instead?

Just $0.02 from someone who has been yelled at in raids for putting up bleeds when all I'm trying to do it use my gambit-builders.

I agree with Galaxiana. I don't know what that light bleed is. Assuming it doesn't break CC, I would not have a problem with it. But if it does, please remove it.

[gageithman]

This looks beyond awesome.
I wonder how ranged dps will compare to melee dps, and how melee dps will compare to our current dps.

No induction range (will jav max range legacy work on gambits and stuff?) could be freaking awesome, cant wait.

[SharadSun]

This looks beyond awesome.
I wonder how ranged dps will compare to melee dps, and how melee dps will compare to our current dps.

No induction range (will jav max range legacy work on gambits and stuff?) could be freaking awesome, cant wait.

SniperWarden.

[KahnyaGnorc]

Is the light bleed absolutely necessary in this gambit-builder? In a day and age where we have to exercise careful control over where we place bleeds (e.g. Draigoch's claws, or bosses such as Flagit who get huge heals every single tick when their shield is up while a bleed is on them) having a forced bleed on a basic-builder is crippling. Even a really short, small bleed.

Maybe the Fist-builder could just do a bit more of one-time light damage instead?

Just $0.02 from someone who has been yelled at in raids for putting up bleeds when all I'm trying to do it use my gambit-builders.

Probably no different than the short Light DoT Warden's Taunt already does, actually.

[Acidburn_32]

MAKE WARDENS MAIN TANKS

SAVE THE WARDEN!!!

I will keep saying this (as this is the only thing that matters to me) until I see some changes!!!

.

[Dahbee]

..... Now, we have been a little more conservative with _____

Whenever a game dev, in any game, uses the word conservative, be afraid, be very afraid. This usually means 3 months+ to get an adjustments made.

[khaipur]

Whenever a game dev, in any game, uses the word conservative, be afraid, be very afraid. This usually means 3 months+ to get an adjustments made.

Since its already been 3 months since they anounced there would be changes and the best estimate is another 2 months.

[MTminas]

U4 was the problem for warden wich came out in september
So the real fix(if it will be fixed) sould come in U6 in march, that's 6months to fix a class....i do think it's plenty of time
But....i recall that in the testing servers wardens complained about the mitigations being at 55% and for the damage that they were taking it was too low, turbine said they would fix it and when U4 came they lowered the mitigations by another 5%

We're getting closer to U6 and the wardens state the mitigations are broken and avoidances don't work well with finesse nor when it comes to tactical damage.
Yet up till now the suggested fix is more avoidances, while many are close to the cap already.

From my point of view, unless turbine actually listens to the people that have been PLAYING wardens i doubt there can be a fix, all posible suggestions to counter the massive damage have been given, and up till now i haven't seen anything done with the suggestions.
Finesse cuts trew our avoidances and our resistance as well as tactical damage brings all avoidances to 0% getting more isn't the fix

What would actually calm most of the wardens is actually hearing the plan to counter this, class revamp ok....but up till now no measure against our main problem.....so i would like to see the plan for this

MT

[Acidburn_32]

And shield tactics was that like some sort of cruel joke...It never works with dragnakh ...it doesn't work on giants ...heck I really don't know why you gave it to us with a cute 10 second stun immunity that takes longer to pull off than it lasts.....

YOU know that wardens cant handle well once stunned ...throws the flow throws the rhythm.... and you honestly cannot expect us to stick with the galtrev armour set forever just for the 5seconds boost. Please increase the stun immunity time.... or at least make it work when we need it ...not against wolves and junk....

And I reiterate!!! please make wardens as main tanks again ...I simply cannot stress this enough.

.

[Ellahad]

so you are seriously trying to give the warden viable dps stances. what nobody yet considered, you need two absolutly different stats for beeing a tank or beeing a dd. as tank you stack vitality but as dd you probably (actually for sure) need a bunch of might. so the warden will end as single class needing 2 different sets of items to fulfill their dedicated roles appropriatly. till now guardian and warden had a dps stance for solo leveling, but nobody seriously considered taking one in raid for a dps spot if there is a real dd available.
but now you say 2/3 of the warden is designed for dmg. so your goal clearly is to create a dd comparable to the excisting ones. so i think there must be a solution avoiding the need for 2 complete different item sets. for example a lore-master is stacking will regardless what trait set he is using. same with minstrels.
so here are a few things that can be considered.

1. the first few hundreds might have a much bigger impact on dmg then everything let´s say above 700. so you could take your tanking set a do decent dmg.
poblems:
-you would end as decent dd but have 12k morale (not so bad for the warden himself )
-you are lacking crit.
-would also effect badly equiped wardens in comparison to other classes because getting a few hundreds might to get descent dmg isn´t that hard.

2. my favorite: transformation of stats if you use at least 4 (or 5) dmg class traits
- activating a dd stance means your might and vitality are swaped.
- parts of block/evade/parry are transformed into crit

i think that would be a good solution to combine both roles in one set. if you are playing the warden as a tank (what his dedicated role was) you are able to fullfill your role as dd, too.
apart from set bonuses you would have all important stats, too. of course having a pure dd set should end in more dmg than having the tank stats tranformed. for example 500 crit should always be more than transformed 500 block. and of course you can use more agility on dd sets, too.

[flyingcircus]

so you are seriously trying to give the warden viable dps stances. what nobody yet considered, you need two absolutly different stats for beeing a tank or beeing a dd. as tank you stack vitality but as dd you probably (actually for sure) need a bunch of might. so the warden will end as single class needing 2 different sets of items to fulfill their dedicated roles appropriatly. till now guardian and warden had a dps stance for solo leveling, but nobody seriously considered taking one in raid for a dps spot if there is a real dd available.

no one's forcing you to stack might you know? you can still just stack vitality and remain a tank

also there's the option of having different sets for different playstiles... other classes are doing that so i am sure you can too

[Morat]

Since its already been 3 months since they anounced there would be changes and the best estimate is another 2 months.

Seven months from the initial breaking of the class (at cap) to my best guess of when Update 6 will finally arrive. That's a little excessively conservative, but still looking forward to April(?).

[Kaikas]

What would actually calm most of the wardens is actually hearing the plan to counter this, class revamp ok....but up till now no measure against our main problem.....so i would like to see the plan for this

I have the feeling we are being fed with awesome damage dealer stances, so we calm down and forget, that we are inferior tanks compared to guards. I don't think its turbines concept, to make the warden and the guard equal tanks. Otherwise Orion would have focused on that, instead of giving us details on our damage stances.

Hopefully i'm wrong and Orion started with the icing and now goes on to the important stuff.

[Hrefntor]

Most of us started playing Warden when MoM launched because it was a fun tank, with self-healing capabilities that could take a lickin' and keep on kickin'.

None of these changes restore that ability and it is obvious that the devs are no longer interested in listening to the people who actually PLAY wardens.

Warden was designed to use a spear throw and charge in and start the fight then soak up the damage from 4 or 5 opponents while screaming in defiance and gradually kicking their butts. The 'new' warden will be some nancy-boy spear chucker who couldn't stand up to three drunken goblins...

The devs have lost the plot on this game - totally. I don't know what happened to the guys who designed LotRO, but I can assure you they are no longer in the building.

[Acidburn_32]

Warden was designed to use a spear throw and charge in and start the fight then soak up the damage from 4 or 5 opponents while screaming in defiance and gradually kicking their butts. The 'new' warden will be some nancy-boy spear chucker who couldn't stand up to three drunken goblins...

The devs have lost the plot on this game - totally. I don't know what happened to the guys who designed LotRO, but I can assure you they are no longer in the building.

My thoughts exactly!
Two words :MAIN TANK.

.

[starstrike]

Since the main problem with Warden is tanking - I don't understand the need for a ranged DPS class? there are plenty of RK and hunters on. I play a warden for the enjoyment of tanking something really big or tanking lots of stuff at once.
I offer two main improvements namely (1) reduce our finesse penalty in Main Tanking and (2) improve our Off-Tanking


Main Tanking stance - should be focused on single target tanking - esp main bosses with high finesse and avoiding AOE that would break mez: The key here to keeping the Warden a vialble alternative to GRD but different is having this stance avoid finesse impacts to evade: Rationale - warden should tank by avoidance but since finesse negatively impacts BPE equal, WRD have been shortchanged as tanks vs GRD against Main bosses. Simply removing the finess penalty to evade should make up for mitigation losses without make our BPE unbalanced vs less mobs. Other variation are possible but having WRD in this stance reduce finesse seems a viable alternative and is in keeping with the class design. Warden surivies through self heals and superior avoidance. Focusing in avoidance seems more in line with the warden, and makes some kiting viable especially right after using NS.

Shield bash should improve self heals 5% 10% 15 %
Quick Thrush should improve partial BPE at 2% 4% and 6%
Taunt should should improve partial BPE mitigation say 10% 20% and 30%

New AOE/off tanking stance - this stance should be viable for both shield and fist trait lines. Here the warden does not reduce finesse penalty nor his the BPE as high as the Main Tanking but his attacks do more AOE damage/bleeds, fellowship threat and life leech, etc. This stance would be most effective against multiple mobs with low finesse or a few mobs with medium finesse. Warden suvives through leech heal (enhanced if yellow traited) and avoidance (if blue traited) and/or kiting.

Shield bash should improve leech healing 5% 10% 15%
Quick Thrush should improve partial BPE at 2% 4% and 6%
Taunt should should improve leech threat

As for the Range DPS - seem you are on the right track but should be more of range tanking class - so when your in the moors with a group of hunters/RK you add to the BPE of your ranged group.

[Morat]

Most of us started playing Warden when MoM launched because it was a fun tank, with self-healing capabilities that could take a lickin' and keep on kickin'.

None of these changes restore that ability and it is obvious that the devs are no longer interested in listening to the people who actually PLAY wardens.

Warden was designed to use a spear throw and charge in and start the fight then soak up the damage from 4 or 5 opponents while screaming in defiance and gradually kicking their butts. The 'new' warden will be some nancy-boy spear chucker who couldn't stand up to three drunken goblins...

The devs have lost the plot on this game - totally. I don't know what happened to the guys who designed LotRO, but I can assure you they are no longer in the building.

- Agree with para 1.
- Hope and expect that para 2 will be proved wrong (as we've only seen 1/3 yet of what Orion has in mind), and I'm sure you will be thrilled if that turns out to be the case.
- Agree with first sentance of para 3. And actually agree with second sentance too, but that's what dps classes are supposed to do: dish out amazing damage while not having to worry (much) about getting hit because the tank is doing his job. Having a viable dps role should not mean that Update 6 fails to make us at least as strong a tank as the Guard, when we're in tanking mode.
- As with para 2, I hope that para 4 will be proved wrong as well, based on Monday's and Tuesday's blog postings.

[Thularil]

Maybe you guys can help me with a question: I am going to make a new toon and want to play a tank. Should I create one who can take huge damage due to high mitigations, is easy to heal, and only has to hit a few buttons occasionally to support his own survival, OR should I actually pay real world money and create a tank that requires me to build just the right gambit at just the right time in just the right order and still take more damage and be harder to heal and thus more likely to die?

Sorry, stupid question. Let my try again: should my guardian be a dwarf or a man? I am thinking dwarf...

[horus418]

Again I ask, do the doom and gloom crowd even grasp the concept of crit immunity? It appears not... Another plea for an "off tank", stance/spec... really? Mind boggling...

Maybe you guys can help me with a question: I am going to make a new toon and want to play a tank. Should I create one who can take huge damage due to high mitigations, is easy to heal, and only has to hit a few buttons occasionally to support his own survival, OR should I actually pay real world money and create a tank that requires me to build just the right gambit at just the right time in just the right order and still take more damage and be harder to heal and thus more likely to die?

Sorry, stupid question. Let my try again: should my guardian be a dwarf or a man? I am thinking dwarf...

Obviously, you are another one who can't handle an advanced class... Play whatever makes you happy.

[Thularil]

Not so, my friend. I have successfully tanked just about everything in the game, except for Orthanc T2 (will get to that soon). My warden has 15.4k morale, 11.5 tact Mit, 9.6k resistance, and 9k phys MIT, all unbuffed. I know how to play him. What I am saying is that you need to be that good on your warden to be successful and also have a good healer and good group around you. I healed Dargnakh T2 on my RK yesterday and the guard who was tanking was Incredibly easier to heal than the wardens I have healed - good wardens mind you. So can wardens tank endgame content? Yes, if they are very good and have a group that is also very good. But the same good group will be more likely to succeed with a guardian as tank than a warden, given equal skill levels of the tank. If someone takes a critical hit and the healer has to put time into them to keep them alive,by the time he gets back to the warden a lot more morale has been lost than a guardian would lose. Something else happens, and things can fall apart. And yes, people other than the tank can get hit even when he has aggro because some bosses will randomly target someone for a second or 2 before going back to the tank. I love my warden, but it kills me to see how durable guardians are in comparison and I can't blame groups for feeling more comfortable with a tank who is harder to kill.

[Bels_illuminati]

I'm liking the look of this so far, been asking for minor group buffs for a while now (it fits the feel of a Warden) and it's great to see something similar being implemented.

One suggestion I have is to make our ranged stance damage significantly higher when stationary. This way PvP won't end up being invaded by uber ranged, survivable wardens kicking bottoms while on the run and miles away from their targets.

Other questions abound (such as will we have spammable ranged interrupts etc) but for now I await more info!

[horus418]

Tularil, if you are that good on your warden, then why the whine post? You should feel good about yourself. Besides, I've seen PLENTY of garbage guards, having a guard in a group does not automatically = win.

IMO, warden tanking only needs a minor tweak to be about even with guards. Simply slapping on extra mitigation would break the heart of the class IMO. People just seem to be ignoring the tanking bonuses that Orion already mentioned...