The Pack That Killed the Moors

[Reichpapers]

There's one problem for beginning creeps, it isn't attractive for them. Logging in everynight to see a nightly freep zergball roll the map, blow up what creeps are out there, farm for renown, etc. - it's very hard for newby creeps to enjoy. I've only been playing in moors for a couple of months, and from those that whine and cry about 1 night where the creeps actually gave some payback is pretty pathetic.

Ride the wave man. It's not like in the history of the Moors, which side is zerging the map didn't change. Eventually, red will be zerging again...give it time.

[Gillianrial]

I've only been playing in moors for a couple of months, and from those that whine and cry about 1 night where the creeps actually gave some payback is pretty pathetic.

Umm at least for me, I was talking generally. Not about the big pack night specifically. I never saw you guys beyond the two times Wulf mentioned above *shrug*

[Oren]

Lots of words but get the gist.

You are missing 2 key points -

When you, I and a number of others started - so had everyone around us - we learnt together, evolved together and against each other and gained experience at similar rates. Now 5 years on, the moors is largely populated by players that have played LOTRO for less than a year - no advantage to either side, I grant you, but the situation is NOT the same as when you started.

The statistics provided are relatively meaningless to the points you are trying to make. This is most readily identified by the phenomena most recently occuring where the freeps have the outnumbered buff, but have more people in their raid than the group(s) of creeps fighting them. Another great numerically based fact I like is that probably most LOTRO players have an above average number of arms....2 being above average number of arms as there are more people with 1 or no arms than there are with 3 or more, so when you add up the number of arms and divide by the number of people you end up with 2.something bigger than 00....see meaningless

[oninoakuma]

I still call BS to this idea that the worst issue in the (ettenmoors) game is that 'freeps' as a whole are so extremely overpowered.

.

Lets see, umm you are very very wrong sir.

[Anarionadama]

Ride the wave man. It's not like in the history of the Moors, which side is zerging the map didn't change. Eventually, red will be zerging again...give it time.

Yeeeeeeeup

[Fraegster]

I understand that has to suck for them and they'll ##### about it. At the same time? They expected easy infamy and personally, when I get packed, my goal is to deny them them that easy kill for as long as I can. I will use my CDs and my brand to do it if they're up. Why? Because I am ALONE and they are warg packers that are ensuring there are NO MORE soloers on freepside except a few of us who are actually masochists.

I don't blame you for trying to deny them, I do the same when I am running solo on my defiler. (The flipside being that if I get jumped by 3+ freeps there is now way in hell no matter what skills or store boughts I use that I will kill them (well almost killed a hunter in a 3v1, then a 4th joined in.. but I digress)). But do you at least see that If you can kill several of those wargs, that only reinforces the warg pack behavior? I am not suggesting you let yourself be an easy kill in the random hope that it will lull the wargs into a false sense of security thereby causing more of them to solo... But blowing several wargs up in an UmpteenV1 simply tells those new wargs that they *would be fools to even try and solo*.

When 3 ranked wargs are unable to kill 1 solo warden after ~4 minutes of fighting, to the point where they literally just bail on the fight and go chase a hunter... Again, this only reinforces pack behavior.

As StickySpiderFromAnotherServerW hoseFreepIsUnkownToMe said, it really becomes a chicken and the egg type thing.


Anyways, pretty much everything you are griping about while running solo, has me nodding my head in agreement, just change the factions and the class names. The list of Freep Soloers I run into when (which is becoming increasingly less, I will admit it) running solo on my defiler is becoming smaller and smaller, and it sounds like you are experiencing the same.

blah, I should really go to work

[tykoshi]

I can really only speak for myself, but I know from enough conversations that I'm not alone in this...

After U5, alot of us began to get very frustrated. The advent of what is essentially minis' godmode, the buffs to champs where they have all those bubbles, the removing of the skill caps that led to devastating freep damage and what did creeps get? Broken Mits. Yeah, Battlefield Promotions were in there, but that didn't really offset the skewing that began with Isengard and got worse through 5.1 and 5.2. The removal of the lockout.

Add to that the fact that creepside lost ALOT of its higher-ranks. The people who knew what the Landy Moors had been like; the ones who led the creep raids. Maggotstew and Belosh were two of the best raid leaders I knew...now both moved on. The White Hand...gone. In their place we got an influx of new creeps who were able to make rank 6 easily through PvE. And if you could have seen /OOC in the early days of RoI, you'd have seen there was a very abrupt change in the attitude among the newer players. We actually still have a dearth of solid leadership on creepside.

Before RoI, I was learning and getting better at 1v1ing or grouping in just 2s or 3s. Good challenges and fun ones, that may just as easily have ended with me at the rez, but I took down my fair share. After RoI? Well, I'm no Arctic, but I'm no slouch either. And yet the wins were far fewer than than the deaths. That gets frustrating.

So some of what we're seeing is an attempt to adapt. I don't mind dying...the lower my rating the less I'm worth. But, at the same time, I'm no different than anyone else: I want to win fights too. I want the infamy to go up. Prior to U6, we were facing situations were 1 champ or 1 mini could roll 4 or 5 reasonably-skilled wargs. Encounter that enough, frustration sets in and you begin looking for ways to counter the situation.

I'm not trying to say we were forced to pack more. I'm saying it was one answer to a very daunting situtation. And before you jump on us for ruining solos, think also about the changes in mechanics that have been just as devastating to it.

-pup-

[Gillianrial]

... But blowing several wargs up in an UmpteenV1 simply tells those new wargs that they *would be fools to even try and solo*.

Yes on the surface, I understand it. Totally. On the surface.

But they don't know how to play their class yet and that's why they lose so many. They don't know how to play because they ONLY warg pack and they only kill solo players with a huge number advantage. They should be able to kill me really quickly, with no/little loss on their side, considering we're usually talking 6 wargs at least that ONLY fight players who are alone and who I can't see, lol. Seriously it's a LTP thing.

BTW, I am not advocating anyone solo. I know why folks don't want to or prefer not to on both sides - particularly in this climate. What I would wish for is - do something other than hunt the last handful of soloers all over the map, LTP your class and mostly, please get better - so we can have better fights. This goes for freeps too! We all need to stop playing like such...kittens. Seriously.

....

And yeah, I am lucky in that I have friends or friendlies or people where there's at least some mutual respect on creepside who are OK fighting me alone. I don't always win...I lose a lot of fights. I learn a lot. I love my talented opponents! If I didn't, I probably wouldn't get any solo fights anymore at all. I am very sure it's the same on your end, dude. /respect to you as always.

[FA_bio_phazon]

as much as i hate wargs, thats nicely done being able to take keeps without a healer and destroying all opposition. kudos yall

[tykoshi]

Yes on the surface, I understand it. Totally. On the surface.

But they don't know how to play their class yet and that's why they lose so many. They don't know how to play because they ONLY warg pack and they only kill solo players with a huge number advantage. They should be able to kill me really quickly, with no/little loss on their side, considering we're usually talking 6 wargs at least that ONLY fight players who are alone and who I can't see, lol. Seriously it's a LTP thing.

BTW, I am not advocating anyone solo. I know why folks don't want to or prefer not to on both sides - particularly in this climate. What I would wish for is - do something other than hunt the last handful of soloers all over the map, LTP your class and mostly, please get better - so we can have better fights. This goes for freeps too! We all need to stop playing like such...kittens. Seriously.

....

And yeah, I am lucky in that I have friends or friendlies or people where there's at least some mutual respect on creepside who are OK fighting me alone. I don't always win...I lose a lot of fights. I learn a lot. I love my talented opponents! If I didn't, I probably wouldn't get any solo fights anymore at all. I am very sure it's the same on your end, dude. /respect to you as always.

Jaiyne,

A good number of the mid to higher rank wargs who pack also solo. Nearly all of the wargs in SWS run in packs AND solo. Same as some of the others who run with us but aren't in SWS. So it isn't just a lack of skill coming into play.

I agree that both sides could do well to move away from what seems to become the El Nino /La Nina equivalent of the zergfest. I'd love to see the fights move away from the keeps EC/OC and Grams. There's alot of room out there, and the best fights seem to be the ones in the open.

And know, too, that even if leading a pack, I'm trying to steer away from hitting solos that I know are soling (as opposed to known raidbabies on their way back to the raid from the rez). Same for other SWS leaders. It's not always easy, and sometimes someone pounces despite being told not to. Still, though, we're trying.

-pup-

[KristTsirk]

As StickySpiderFromAnotherServerW hoseFreepIsUnkownToMe said, it really becomes a chicken and the egg type thing.

oh I'm nobody important.

[Thane9]

You are missing 2 key points -

When you, I and a number of others started - so had everyone around us - we learnt together, evolved together and against each other and gained experience at similar rates. Now 5 years on, the moors is largely populated by players that have played LOTRO for less than a year - no advantage to either side, I grant you, but the situation is NOT the same as when you started.

The statistics provided are relatively meaningless to the points you are trying to make. This is most readily identified by the phenomena most recently occuring where the freeps have the outnumbered buff, but have more people in their raid than the group(s) of creeps fighting them. Another great numerically based fact I like is that probably most LOTRO players have an above average number of arms....2 being above average number of arms as there are more people with 1 or no arms than there are with 3 or more, so when you add up the number of arms and divide by the number of people you end up with 2.something bigger than 00....see meaningless

My response to the 2 points I'm missing.

1> I believe those players SHOULD get wrecked by someone with a million or two renown, years of experience, and thousands of hours of gameplay under their belt. I know people will cry "NO FAIR" to that concept. But it's my assertion. PvMp is NOT a first person shooter where only skill matters and NO power curve
exists. Ranks should matter. IMHO they should matter MORE...

2. Not in my experience. In the past couple weeks since I've been back I have seen ONE engagement where the freeps had more than the creeps. What I've been seeing is LOTS of 4,5,8,12 v 1s. LOTS of Creep raids 20+ not just rolling keeps, but PURPOSEFULLY not taking them and farming outside and inside them. I'm seeing VERY high ranked creeps R9 and above clearly working with stealthed wargs around them and baiting solos. I'm just not seeing this hoard of overpowered minis and wardens smashing overwhelming numbers of creeps. What I'm seeing is REALLY lame gameplay from the players that are powerful enough to be competative, leaving the weak and the greens to their own solo suffering at the hands of the few freeps that are actually out there looking for a real fight.

But yes, that is clearly my opinion, and based only on my experience. I cannot speak for what it's like for the raiding freeps and what they're doing. I quite purposefully avoid those chuckleheads.

Lets see, umm you are very very wrong sir.

Care to say why? Most creep classes at R9 match up VERY well to me, if they're played by a competant player. BAs, Wargs, WLs, Defilers...all SHOULD win against me at R9 unless I have literally everything at my disposal and I play perfectly. Reavers are a wash...IF they don't push that one button that insures them no loss. Bugs are underpowered IMHO before U6...I can't say I've encountered any high ranked ones solo since.

And I'm one of the supposed "OP" classes.

How many solo fights have you had? I've got thousands under my belt. None arranged, ALL with the uncertainty and randomness of open PvMP and all that the zone brings to it. I think I'm a reasonable judge of shifts in power if for no other reason than I have those thousands of fights as a basis of comparison.

It doesn't take more than 5-10 fights against a ranked creep class to have a feel for where their strengths and weaknesses lie these days. ESPECIALLY if you're lucky enough to encounter the well played ones.

2 of ANYTHING as long as they're not severely underranked, or severely underplayed should kill me, typically pretty darn fast.

The problem is too many players are COMPLETELY discounting the fact that creeps NEED R7+ to be compared to a new freep. This is MORE THAN FAIR. But creepside has their collective head in the sand on this issue. R7 is NOTHING. Especially with the advent of PvE rewards.

Add in a couple ranks of audacity and R7-R9 is plenty competative.

But no one wants to work for it any more. Everyone seems to act like creeps should just be handed the power and ability that freeps have to invest hundreds of gameplay hours to achieve. Thousands if you consider the cumulative grind that players since beta have had to go through.

[Denno]

A not often spoken of, but huge part of the increase in warg packs is those in combat brands/NPC huggers, when I engage someone and I start winning and they immediately slow me and use their sprint and coffee bonuses to hide in keeps/bears/npc concentrations, it is really frustrating. But what is even WORSE is when I engage a well geared RK, with a 7500+ lifebar, with stuns of their own, and they immediately burn an incombat-brand, I basically become a damage sponge and while the argument might be, "I have more health and stuns, so why shouldn't the RK use store stuff to his advantage?" What freeps don't realize apparently is that I also can't crit for anything above 1.8k and don't do NEARLY as much DPS as them. So basically I'm being encouraged by the play of 75% of freeps to change how I play against 100% of them.

Also as a side note, Jaiyne, for every small group/solo a WP kills, we usually let several of them get by, maybe because you can't see what we are doing, you assume that we have a KOS order, but I can assure you that when it Pup, Hith, or myself running a pack, we discourage a bunch of repeated attacks on highly uneven numbers.

-Wallet

(Oh and far as I'm concerned known exploiters/rez campers/runners/insane store users are all fair game.)

[Gillianrial]

There have ALWAYS been warg packs. As long as there have been wargs, there have been packs. I can tell you they have always been especially prevalent on Landroval. When I was low ranked on my warg, I was in some myself

And you're right, I wouldn't know if you're passing people up because...I can't SEE you! I. Can't. See. You.

I can only tell you that I know the names of those who are never outside a pack at the times I play. When I get pounced, it's rarely a pleasant surprise like Arctic or a terrifying one like Wil and Sadie, where I will have a good fight. It's the same warg pack and so, the minstrel vs dogs ######o-dance begins again LOL!

(edit - awww they blocked a word!)

[Arvaen]

When 3 ranked wargs are unable to kill 1 solo warden after ~4 minutes of fighting, to the point where they literally just bail on the fight and go chase a hunter... Again, this only reinforces pack behavior.

As I understand it, and I may be wrong since I haven't played my warden in a long while, more wargs will actually make it harder to kill them unless you stun and burn quickly. More creeps nearby = more lifetaps = more healing = harder to kill.

Jaiyne,

A good number of the mid to higher rank wargs who pack also solo. Nearly all of the wargs in SWS run in packs AND solo. Same as some of the others who run with us but aren't in SWS. So it isn't just a lack of skill coming into play.

I agree that both sides could do well to move away from what seems to become the El Nino /La Nina equivalent of the zergfest. I'd love to see the fights move away from the keeps EC/OC and Grams. There's alot of room out there, and the best fights seem to be the ones in the open.

And know, too, that even if leading a pack, I'm trying to steer away from hitting solos that I know are soling (as opposed to known raidbabies on their way back to the raid from the rez). Same for other SWS leaders. It's not always easy, and sometimes someone pounces despite being told not to. Still, though, we're trying.

-pup-

I tried coming up with a detailed response that didn't sound at least a little arrogant and failed... Sounds too much like I'm trying to tell people how to play.

Pup, you're an excellent leader. But a fair portion of the wargs out there have a lot to learn about how to play their class and seem to be leaning on the pack as a crutch, at least in my observation. I haven't spent much time in the packs lately, in part because of what I've seen.

*shrug*
Maybe I'm wrong.

[tykoshi]

Actually, Arctic, I don't think you're wrong at all. I've noticed, and I think Wallet and Hithy probably have as well, there's been a change in the overall pack mentality of late. I know Hithy has had to more than once make it clear that a pack being complained about wasn't one of ours. So have I. Some of that, I think, comes back around to the change in attitude I mentioned in an earlier post.

As to how much soloing has droppoed off for wargs, though. I can say that yes, I don't see near as many. But, at the same time, my game log-in time lately coincides to when the zerg wars are reaching peak intensity. Not sure how much that discourages others from soloing, but I'd bet there's some correlation.

And I would agree that there's still alot of learning to be done. I still *facepaw* at alot of what I see, and I'm nowhere near the best skilled warg out there. For myself, as I get more accustomed to the changes we got in U6, I'm willing to range out on my own more often (not that I wasn't before).

-pup-

[Starkraft]

Why a R9 defiler thinks he needs to bait solo players for 5+ wargs stealthed around him is beyond me. It's absurd, and actually pretty sad.

Bacarat..HH right? He wasnt baiting, he was just doing his normal quest farm and called for help...

[Aedon]

Hmm weird. Now granted, I was gone a few months, but since I got back, I don't think I have seen more than a handful of minstrels out at one time. But then again, maybe they're all raided up, stealthed and ganking solo creeps by knocking them down for 10 seconds as they try roam around the map getting solo fights. Oh wait...

hehe

Beanie, you were not solo the other night. You were either running with three others, or running close to the raid. Being solo does not mean staying raid adjacent. Now you know I love you to bits, but you not too long ago proclaimed that your mini was op and you would not be back out in her till things improved. Well, believe it or not, things for creeps have not greatly improved. We are just, for this time, getting a few more kills.

We caught you 4 up the hill from Grams while the rest of the freeps were camping Grams. And you guys put up a hell of a fight, but in the end it was your turn to be eaten by the bear.

You do run solo a lot, But understand that if you are near the raid, you may as well be in the raid from a creeps point of view *hugs*

[Oren]

My response to the 2 points I'm missing.

1> I believe....too many words as you obviously didnt have time to say what you meant.

So basically what you are saying is all about you, in a 'you centred world', and from your point of view. In that case there is no point in discussing anything with you as you will always believe you are right, not take anyone else's point of view into account and are prone to sweeping generalisations based on, from your own words, limited recent experience.....ok, end of conversation, I dont feed trolls. You keep on fightiing last year's battle, everyone else has moved on - have a nice game

[tykoshi]

Bacarat..HH right? He wasnt baiting, he was just doing his normal quest farm and called for help...

No, Baccarat was definitely running with the wargies last night. He was doing it because I invited him in, not because he asked (those who ask to be bait get told no). Let's face it' he's crazy enough to be a a SWS wargie. But, at any rate, no fault to him in this.

-pup-

[Aedon]

Beanie, you were not solo the other night. You were either running with three others, or running close to the raid. Being solo does not mean staying raid adjacent. Now you know I love you to bits, but you not too long ago proclaimed that your mini was op and you would not be back out in her till things improved. Well, believe it or not, things for creeps have not greatly improved. We are just, for this time, getting a few more kills.

We caught you 4 up the hill from Grams while the rest of the freeps were camping Grams. And you guys put up a hell of a fight, but in the end it was your turn to be eaten by the bear.

You do run solo a lot, But understand that if you are near the raid, you may as well be in the raid from a creeps point of view *hugs*

Yes, I am replying to myself.

After speaking to Jaiyne I understand what has been going on. And I have to say that what we spoke of and I have seen these things happening as well is just the sort of thing that has made the moors a lot less attractive for many of us older players. It seems many times that civility and fair play are far too often cast to the winds by some. And this sort of thing happens on both sides of the map, creep and freep.

I am sorry these things still happen to you and the many others I have heard from, or witnessed for myself.

[Denno]

Because WPs are the only thing in the moors that gank solos.

[F1erceGam3r2]

I wish I could find more solo nubs to fight...

Gut Out!

[pibob314]

I will fight you, RAWR!!!

[Gell]

Im not new to the moors and this is my first post ever on the forums regarding anything pvmp.
i play Meatgrinder the warg and i do admit yes that im not that best warg if it all near it.im just rank 7 working on rank 8, with yes a few extra skills/traits i managed to snag off the store. generally i would refrain from doing so but i TOO want to enjoy the moors. with all the mits broken prior to u6 , that was the reason i felt the need to get those trinkets so that i would be of some contribution to the creepside.

now this is my observation and mine only, if I a solo warg would encounter a solo champ or a solo mini , with all their bubbles and oh sh*t buttons , i would have to say that its pretty much a 10k health warg going off against a 25k+ equivalent freep. now if you think that i would consider that equal then you are dead wrong.

infact the dev that envisioned the warg actually made him as a group efficient player, if you take a look at all his skills and buffs/debuffs they are very group oriented. i would never think to go solo on a freep with oh sh*t buttons hence why i ALWAYS group up.

i used to play a GRD and RK in the moors for a long time and i simply lost interest due to the fact that it imposed no challenge when a freepzerg encounters a craid.

The fact that we as creeps were so humiliated daily with freep zergs and we kept coming and pushing and whathave you i think says a lot about our determination to succeed. now all this time that the creeps were hurt by their mits and freeps just kept blazing us day in and day out, you guys got used to it and that`s your problem. now that we finally go some firepower to equalize you guys, now you guys are overwhelmed because you got lazy. how about try coming back with new strategy to counter our warg raids. deal with it like we dealt with it all this time.

my highest hit ( after u6 ) was actually 2.7k , now im not genius but i dont think it even compares to freep damage from i would have to say : Champ / RK / MINI / LM / HNT can all hit me WELL OVER 4-5k pretty damn often. now if you think thats enough for me to go solo against any of these you are damn wrong , and it just solidifies my intentions to group up more and more to counter the damage output you freeps produce.

Im done Ranting

Meatgrinder