The Warden is Almost Right at the Moment - DON'T BREAK US!

[Thularil]

Update 6 has almost fixed the Warden. Almost. Right now (meaning just after Update 6 launched and before the first patch), we have a way to reliably get aggro quickly and hold it for a long times with periodic refreshes. This allows us to build and execute defensive and self-healing gambits to try and keep ourselves alive once we are getting pounded on by the mobs we have aggro'd. And these defensive and self-healing gambits have been adjusted so that they provide enough benefit to actually help us in a meaningful way. Sure, there are still some bugs (Shield Tactics still allowing me get stunned, dazed, etc), but it is a HUGE step forward.

If something is adjusted in a future patch to reduce our ability to quickly grab aggro, we will then need a MAJOR boost to our self-heals and our defensive gambits to compensate for the extra time we will have to put into getting threat. Hmmm... I wonder if anyone would complain about Conviction ticking at 800 a pop or Shield Mastery giving a +5000 to block, parry, and evade and raising the cap for Wardens on these stats? And the other defensive and healing gambits adjusted similarly?

And if any adjustments to threat are made so that we "only have to use 1 or 2 more" threat building gambits at the start of a fight to get aggro and refresh them "only a little more often" to keep it, guess what? We will be broken. As you read this post, please think about what I am saying in the context of full raid endgame content that you have done or attempted to do. When 2 Wardens realistically can serve as the only tanks in Saurman T2, we'll be in pretty good shape.

Final note: I think it was Sapience who said in another post that Battle Preparation has been allowing Wardens to go into battle a little too well prepared. Have I missed something? Has there been a huge increase in wardens successfully tanking endgame raids since the update? Has the update made Saurman T2 trivial when 2 wardens tank it?

It seems like some of the arguments in this forum are based on the analysis of one or 2 aspects of the warden class looked at in a laboratory. I know this post is long, but if we don't get this conversation grounded in reality, wardens will continue to be viewed as broken. And they will be.

[Balan64]

Quote "When 2 Wardens realistically can serve as the only tanks in Saurman T2, we'll be in pretty good shape. "

Amen to that!!!!!!

However EoB when traited TV is broken and needs fixed. Will have to see how the War Cry Threat helps once it is though.

[jugger181]

Agree for the most part...but the battle prep issue is definitely a bug....I can hit 8 straight battle preps, get defenses up, hit 8 more bp, run into combat and have 20seconds of power free, no cd mastery goodness, it is 3-4 WT, w-3 EoB at no cost. That is def a bug.

[spelunker]

I really can't understand the OP (and many other posters in the warden forums) sentiment. As Jugger mentioned, battle prep is an easily exploitable buggy mess. The update does nothing to prevent people from running in with SM, DoW, and Conviction active, while having an EoB in queue waiting to go, it will just take a second longer to do so, and you won't be able to then spam cost free gambits through the previously buggy implementation.

Regarding how so many people feel we need an overpowered threat skill since survivability needs to be a warden's top focus: you are aware that many of our defensive buffs are also our most powerful aggro tools as well, right (TVed EoB excluded)?

In my experience I can maintain a gambit rotation that keeps DoW, Conviction, and SoD always active, along with SM, WoS, CoS, and Safeguard almost always up, and even toss in the occasional restoration. As long as I keep the first 3 gambits as my top priority and squeeze the others in between, I don't really have aggro problems with even hard hitting groups. Other than perseverance, and Shield Tactics (which are respectively largely and completely useless in a raid/full-fellow environment, imo) what survivability am I losing out on?

Is bugged EoB a nice tool for easy-mode threat right now? absolutely. I'm far from the best warden out there, and i'm sure there are times I have and will let down too many defensive buffs or gone too soft of aggro and lost it. But for all the talk that a great warden should be better than a great guard, I think the tools are all there and people just need step their game up rather than call for keeping crutches like bugged TV+EoB.

Late Edit: all the tools WILL be there for us to out-tank guards once the bugs like conviction are fixed, and we have a second viable 'oh $&%^' skill working (DC)/

[Regero]

Agree for the most part...but the battle prep issue is definitely a bug....I can hit 8 straight battle preps, get defenses up, hit 8 more bp, run into combat and have 20seconds of power free, no cd mastery goodness, it is 3-4 WT, w-3 EoB at no cost. That is def a bug.

So THAT is the BP exploit we were warned not to use! I see! How... fascinating...

inb4 Sapience locks the thread.

[Ironcrown]

So THAT is the BP exploit we were warned not to use! I see! How... fascinating...

inb4 Sapience locks the thread.

inb4thelock2!

[Alphane]

Is discussing a fixed exploit reason to close a thread?

Anyway, if this new BP is what was intended, it's a bit lame. I now pop BP and build SM. Then pop BP again and build DoW. Then pop BP again and build conviction. Then pop BP again and build Shield Tactics.

Only then do I pull. All the while my group is getting bored or have got sick and pulled without waiting for me.

Wouldn't a fair compromise be allowing BP to build any number of gambits for 20 seconds but have it dispell as soon as combat begins? It's effectively what we'll all be doing anyway but just makes it a bit slicker and means we don't have to hold up our groups for as long...

[cpdm]

I'd rather not have it dispelled on entering combat as pre-buffing is not the only reason to use it. I like having the option to build a gambit, run into combat, and then fire the gambit.

[Thularil]

Quote from Spelunker, whose Warden is Geirskogul: "In my experience I can maintain a gambit rotation that keeps DoW, Conviction, and SoD always active, along with SM, WoS, CoS, and Safeguard almost always up, and even toss in the occasional restoration. As long as I keep the first 3 gambits as my top priority and squeeze the others in between, I don't really have aggro problems with even hard hitting groups."

I don't know you, but I have a very hard time beleiving that in a 12 man raid situation you can acquire aggro and keep it with DoW, Conviction, SoD and the others you mention. Unless your raid is sitting back and letting you attack alone for the first 10 seconds of every fight, it simply isn't happening. And if they are watching you for this long, you are most likely dying pretty quick in endgame raid content. As a matter of fact, I play on Nimrodel also, I am pretty active, and I don't even know you. I have never, ever, seen Geirskogul in game. Obviously you are playing if you have reached level 75, but how much do you play your warden? Are you runing current instances at either T1 or at T2? Perhaps we play at different times... The next next time I see you posting for a group, I'm going to get on my burg or hunter and see how well you do establishing and holding aggro with that rotation. Better yet, post for Limlight dailies the next few days. I'll jump in with you, and if you use that rotation you will not be able to get and hold aggro even when killing Huorns, Spiders, and Trolls, which is not close to qualifying as endgame raid content. Are you talking about tanking GS or SG as a level 75 warden or are you talking about current endgame content?

[spelunker]

I'm one of two or three people who have tanked lightning t2 on our server (unless another group did it this past week) on my guard (which has the same name basically). I've been maintank and solo tank (other than saruman) on my warden, for every wing of Orthanc on t1, including a LOT of pugs. Pre-u5 i'd hit aggression once or twice in the first 10 seconds of a bossfight, and never touch it again for the duration. And yes, since U6 I've done t1 lightning solo tanking without using EoB a single time (i finally get to bring my warden for our kin t2 run next week, yay!!). We'll see how T2 goes but at this point the main thing i'm worried about is my inability to force my static from 9 to 10 like i can on my guard (we solo tank it), but I play a fully decked out guard, and warden, and I think aggro will be less of an issue than it is on my guard.

All that said, and as mentioned above, I'm sure there's plenty of wardens out there who are better than me, even on our ###### server. All the tools are there for us to be fully capable tanks as is, right now, even with an EoB "nerf", and I have played a top-end guard to know how it compares.

Edit: as long as your raid is organized correctly, aggro should be no more difficult that in a 6-man setting. And aggro is tougher in a less than full limlight group or 3-man than a 6/12 person setting.

[Thularil]

Why did you use your Guardian and not your warden to tank T2 Saurman? I don't know, but something tells me it's because you and the group you ran with thought the chance of success would be greater with a guardian. And if you and the group thought that, you were correct.

[spelunker]

umm, you mean t2 lightning? and the reason we did before U6 was because we DID have a better chance at succeeding. The reason we did this week? because i had locks because i wanted to get my sea legs on warden with the updates and did a pug t1 lightning run and was locked. (Solo tanked it, never lost aggro, and never popped my top, or got past 6 on static due to much better bpe, btw)

Why are you so convinced I'm bsing you?

[Thularil]

Well, Geirskogul, I must say, your mature and reasoned responses have thrown me off. Experience has taught me that many posts are uninformed and not well thought out. I think a lot of people make assertions in this forum based on a very narrow breadth and shallow depth of experience. That being said, you have not tanked T2 lightning on your warden, but you have on your guard, so assertions that wardens are fine seem a bit premature. Maybe you will get it done the next time you do it, and if so, congratulations will be in order. But as you think ahead about doing it on your warden, do you have more or less confidence in success than if you were on your guard? If I am reading correctly, your rotation includes 7 gambits that are up or almost always up. Pretty hard to do in my opinion, but maybe you have a way. Or maybe "almost always up" is a bit more open to interpretation. I guess the main thing that strikes me as too good to be true is that you can use Dance of War, Conviction, and Surety of Death to get threat, especially at the beginning of a fight when the raid members you are transferring threat from with 2 of these 3 gambits haven't really built up threat to leech from. I know that if I started a fight in a 6 or 12 man instance with Conviction, DoW, and SoD, the mobs would look at me once and then move on the the hunter, champ, burg, or healer that was really getting their attention. If you let me know the next time you are scheduled to do a raid, or even farming rep in Limlight Gorge and would entertain an outsider, I would love to bring my RK or Burg (my 2 best toons after my warden) so that I can learn from you and see how your threat building rotation works.

[spelunker]

Ok, well i certainly wouldn't be relying on DoW and Conviction for my initial threat, i can see where that might have confused you. I'd probly lead a fight like lightning boss with goad-2xSoD, defensive strike-2xSoV which would be a relatively quick 20k plus of threat, and then go into the rough outline i mentioned. And when i say i keep all of those up the majority of the time i mean the majority. I don't exactly have a set rotation, but i'd estimate i can keep SM up 99% of the time, CoS and Safeguard 80%, while WoS maybe 70% of the time. Just semi random numbers, but a guesstimate of how much i think i keep things up.

[Zonflux]

If something is adjusted in a future patch to reduce our ability to quickly grab aggro, we will then need a MAJOR boost to our self-heals and our defensive gambits to compensate for the extra time we will have to put into getting threat. Hmmm... I wonder if anyone would complain about Conviction ticking at 800 a pop or Shield Mastery giving a +5000 to block, parry, and evade and raising the cap for Wardens on these stats? And the other defensive and healing gambits adjusted similarly?

A gambit to do +5000 BPE, you're kidding right? So you basically want to have permanent Guardian's Pledge active on yourself, way to EZ-mode.

+800 tic heals.. I'm not even going to comment on that one. ~rolls eyes
^
For giggles we went 3-man into Survival Barrow Downs and just got the Warden to stand in one spot and let EVERYTHING beat on him whilst he self-healed through it. He lasted 33 minutes. I don't know how many rows of whatever icon it was on him, but there were rows of something on the Warden. The more rows the more is morale would be up, the less rows the lower his morale would fall. Eventually he ONLY died because his gear started breaking.
^
+800 tic heals.. give me a break. Seriously.

I'm all for raising the mitigation caps on a Warden, but if and when they do that they are also going to have to do another major revamp of the Warden to properly balance them out.

[Zonflux]

Late Edit: all the tools WILL be there for us to out-tank guards once the bugs like conviction are fixed, and we have a second viable 'oh $&%^' skill working (DC)/

I don't know why Orion placed your forced threat gambit on such a long cooldown. That just baffles me.

[Beornded]

I don't know why Orion placed your forced threat gambit on such a long cooldown. That just baffles me.

Forced threat imo is not really uhh warden-ish I guess you could say. For guardians, and champ tanks, forced threat helps because while you're being attacked you're gaining block/parry events, or fervour pips and straight up gaining threat with champ reprisal traited exchange of blows. The only benefit forced taunt gives wardens is that stuff won't be attacking other fellows.... which could also be done by just straight out out threating everybody and would be a more permanent solution.

Warden playstyle is more proactive imo. Set up shield tactics if you're going to be stunned, store interupts in BM if there's going to be inductions... generate aggro before you lose it.

I really think DC is more like the warden's answer to guardian's pledge than challenge or challenge the darkness. The force taunt only lasts five seconds! and if it hits after that ridiculous animation you're likely to lose people before it procs anyways. I can easily bulid EoB or conviction and fire it off before DC hits. Somebody else made the argument that EoB could be built during the force taunt duration.. but if that's enough to get aggro why didn't you just do that in the first place? The + mitigation bonus will be significantly helpful though.

[WhimsicalPacifist]

A gambit to do +5000 BPE, you're kidding right? So you basically want to have permanent Guardian's Pledge active on yourself, way to EZ-mode.

+800 tic heals.. I'm not even going to comment on that one. ~rolls eyes
^
For giggles we went 3-man into Survival Barrow Downs and just got the Warden to stand in one spot and let EVERYTHING beat on him whilst he self-healed through it. He lasted 33 minutes. I don't know how many rows of whatever icon it was on him, but there were rows of something on the Warden. The more rows the more is morale would be up, the less rows the lower his morale would fall. Eventually he ONLY died because his gear started breaking.
^
+800 tic heals.. give me a break. Seriously.

I'm all for raising the mitigation caps on a Warden, but if and when they do that they are also going to have to do another major revamp of the Warden to properly balance them out.

He was using Exultation of Battle which used to be able to be used about 4 times in a row to generate 40 separate healing icons (assuming 10 targets). It has since been fixed and the warden should eventually reach a critical mass that he can't heal through alone.

[spelunker]

I figure I should post an update here since I mentioned I would be giving t2 lightning a go for the first time on my warden (instead of my guard).

We downed it with no significant issues. Our kin uses a solo tanking strategy, and sometimes use 3 healers, but this time only had 2 healing RKs. The same RK has been healing on my side for every one of our T2 Lightning kills, and said it was EASIER to heal me on warden than guard.

Until the first morale threshold (1,050,000) I felt like my static tiered up fairly quickly since i can't lead the fight with pledge (once we're situated) to help build an aggro lead. I hit 10 static 3 or 4 times before this first threshold. Once we hit the first morale threshold and his attacks reduce in frequency, things got downright easy for me it seemed. I was already at 7 or 8 static when this phase started and did hit 10 and pop twice, but that was it. Once we hit the final phase with lightning shatter the infrequent attacks coupled with superior warden bpe meant my static was at 1-2. So solo tanking I believe static hit 10 either 5 or 6 times over the course of the fight, compared to my guard that I would estimate blows about 10-12 times in the same fight. (my guard's bpe is around 24.5/21/1, buffed up)


On threat. I will step back a little from my previous statement on threat gen. I hadn't run with the heavy hitters in our kin for about a month in a pure tank n' spank since I had been taking my guard for the t2 runs previously. On my guard, we pull out all the stops to boost my aggro (call to greatness from any minis in the run, champs ebbing, burgs provoking at every opportunity, etc), and even then our top dpsers know they have to hold back, a little.

I'm pretty sure our 1 burg was using provoke, but we had no mini for call to greatness, I'm pretty sure our champ didn't bother ebbing, and I didn't think to trait Confidence, which in retrospect i will be doing instead of efficient thrust. All dpsers were going all out within a few seconds of me having the boss in position, and they only had to move 5 feet over once in the fight. A hunter pulled aggro for a second at the halfway point, and our champ pulled aggro with the boss at 10k (we had oathies up continuously from about 350k morale to go and he said he deved on remorseless at least 2 or 3 times in that span, both he and the hunter won symbols, :/).

My 'rotation' was far from perfect, and I know i can put out more threat that I did in that run (and more than my guard), while maintaining similar buffs, but I will step back from my previous position on threat and say that with top-tier dpsers, SoD with Conviction/DoW probably isn't enough. That said, I still think EoB is stupidly OP in its current bugged form.

[Nydorewyth]

Congrats on solo tanking Lightning T2!

II will step back from my previous position on threat and say that with top-tier dpsers, SoD with Conviction/DoW probably isn't enough.

This is definitely true, and of course the reason Aggression became the end-all threat gambit before the nerf. There was just no way to generate (or "moderate transfer") enough raw threat to keep ahead of the best DPS, and with so many DPS races built into newer content the old suggestion "threat's a team effort, DPS should learn to ramp up" isn't viable in many situations. Better to let them generate threat for you.

Acid wing worked great like this, actually - tank the boss near the far door, and when the adds came two champs AoE the adds and Aggression pulled them up to you. No running around chasing things and wondering which mobs are too far or too many for EoB. But now it's a bit messier.

[Soltreas]

Eventually he ONLY died because his gear started breaking.

This made me giggle ^^

[Agapups]

I figure I should post an update here since I mentioned I would be giving t2 lightning a go for the first time on my warden (instead of my guard).

Good job m8!
Is there any chance of you showing us your gear/stats?