EoB Adjusted in 6.0.1

[Balagast]

I like this. In most content only one tank is needed. The only time there should be two would be in raids esp ones with tank swapping. Foundry doesnt need two tanks. RoF doesnt need two either. As long as we can function as main tank and keep aggro off of the dps and healers we should be ok. If we suddenly just couldnt hold aggro of of a cappys dps then id say there was a problem. As it stands we can function as main tank in all small content.

For the record, i have found our threat management to be pretty comperable to guards. (except recovering after death.) The only thing im hoping for is a little more love when it comes to tank swapping. Sure as it stands right now we can hit EoB a couple of times and take it from whoever, but when this gets "normalized" we will fall short a bit i think. We went from having aggression as the unacceptable end all threat gambit to EoB. The question is... how do you make a gambit worthy of a threat swap tool that isnt totally spammable and OP?

Maybe a better question is whats wrong with having an OP threat tool in the first place?

You last part there I agree with completely. Everyone I know that doesn't play a warden seems to think being able to hold aggro easilly is totally OP, but in reality it allows us to use our defensive gambit and be on par with guards when it comes to tanking. Tanking is not just about holding aggro (well maybe for a guard it is), it is about holding aggro and being able to effectively absorb the damage taken. Being as we still have only 50% mitigation, the second part is always going to be challenging so why not make the first part relatively easy.

[Harperelle]

I think the answer is to give warden some raw threat abilities. Nerf everything on the gambit except threat, make the power cost high and everything else will take care of itself. I think Precise Blow is the perfect candidate for this. High power cost, relatively high threat, not particularly damaging. I'd happily nerf the damage and +penetrate buff for a little more threat on it. This is the way it used to work, you could spam PB, but you would eventually run out of power and all your defenses would crumble. We have really good threat maintenance tools now, but our threat catch-up and snap aggro tools are lacking (except for traited EoB).

--Harper

[Morat]

But it is my understanding that since there os no longer a war cry legacy it is a pale immitation of what ot once was, like PB.

[SinisterSledge]

WoW, never tought of using my heals in my rotation.... DOH! Of course I use them, sometimes maybe too much. I just forgot to include them in this. Im not asking for the Mit cap's to be raised, nope.
While I was testing on T-dummy in GV, too get my stat info for this. I was 1 of 3 freeps last night(champ,RK,Warden), we PvM'ed TR, no issue's. Took AE, again no issue's.
Agro was fine, rotation was working, yea heals tossed in too.
I'm starting to think. Why I can get agro off some grd's and not others. Hhmm.. Raid rdy grd's? Or is it the Mob's? In the LLG dailys, I can get and hold agro vs all landscape mob's there. Is that the diff here? Mob's?
Has these factors been tested like this?

Yea what warden hasnt solo'ed a tyrant? Seems to me, most raid kin's alrdy knew what wardens were all bout before u6.
One reason or the other. Grd's have been the better choice for these reasons.
TBH, Im inn a great kin, been in topped ranked raid kin. Running solo is the warden way because wardens have been looked down on for many reasons, the toon it self, or the player, or even grp setup. If this is the best we are going to get. Then I guess I'll just have to deal with it and continue to try my best.

[horus418]

But it is my understanding that since there os no longer a war cry legacy it is a pale immitation of what ot once was, like PB.

Have a nice long look at WC now and WC before update 6. If you are objective about it, I can't see how you'd come to that conclusion.

[Illist]

Now if I was not in Threat stance and not spamming skills such as Engage or Challenge the Darkness, and not had Selfless Defence on, I'd be like yeah whatever no problem. But I'm sorry, spec'd this way and fighting so aggressively for aggro as I was, there should be no way any class should be able to pull aggro from me.

Why should no class be able to pull aggro off of you? Because Gaurds are better tanks I forgot. But, wait.. why were you fighting for aggro in the first place? Because you think Gaurds are supposed to automaticly be the the tank over a Warden.

Since I'm making a post, I want to add one thing. EoB is NOT broken. I am finaly able to rip the Orc's off of the Hourns in Fangorn without using Deffiant challenge or hitting them each with PB. Thing is, Defiant challenge has a very long cooldown now compared to all of Gaurdians "Force Taunts" so, I don't think its unfair that Wardens have a fighting chance to get aggro quickly if they are any good. Orion was right to amp it a bit after that last nerf to the legacy in U5 (I think it was U5). In fact, if Wardens are any good then they should know what to aggro and what not to and no gaurd should feel the need to try and pull it off of them. Wardens dont need your protection. They're tanks too.

It's such a silly compitition between the two class'. Both have their advantages. Force taunts, heavy armour and high crit deffence belong to gaurds and they are able to grab the aggro super fast. Wardens get Medium, armour but HoTs and ToT (Threat over time) + Leaches. Personaly, I feel this class is finaly PERFECT! Yes, perfect except for the minor bugs that im sure will be fixed.. It's awsome just how it is now. We can tank while leaching threat and healing ourself. No doubt Orions intention. As far as the whole EoB heal stacking thing, it clearly says that it can affect up to 10 targets in the disciption does it not? Well, then..perhaps it should be changed to say, heal can stack up to 10 times if some are confused. The threat however is right where it should and needs to be at now. I used to depend on using Deffiant challenge to get quick aggro when running with DPS who don't have the patience to let aggro build on our ToT. Now, DF (our only FT) is only usable once or twice in each 3 man so EoB is right where it needs to be. I hope everyone stops saying its "Too OP" or it will be nerfed for sure. Wardens should be finaly satisfied with it and Gaurds should just accept they aren't supperior is every way. No, reason two tanks should fight over aggro in a raid anyhow so I don' get that part.

The class is finaly perfect. Orion did an awsome job with as much heat as he tanks from the comunity, it won't be untill its nerfed that I will have something to complain about. Great job Orion. Don't change a thing!

[SinisterSledge]

Since I'm making a post, I want to add one thing. EoB is NOT broken. I am finaly able to rip the Orc's off of the Hourns in Fangorn without using Deffiant challenge or hitting them each with PB.
Personaly, I feel this class is finaly PERFECT! Yes, perfect except for the minor bugs that im sure will be fixed.. It's awsome just how it is now.
The class is finaly perfect. Orion did an awsome job with as much heat as he tanks from the comunity, it won't be untill its nerfed that I will have something to complain about. Great job Orion. Don't change a thing! [/QUOTE]

What?!? Im not sure where this is going but... My tooltip for EoB does not say anything about threat, only leech'en.

[Harperelle]

What?!? Im not sure where this is going but... My tooltip for EoB does not say anything about threat, only leech'en.

Read a little more closely... You need to be in determination.

[Dradous]

Since I'm making a post, I want to add one thing. EoB is NOT broken. I am finaly able to rip the Orc's off of the Hourns in Fangorn without using Deffiant challenge or hitting them each with PB.

Last night I was doing the limelight gorge dailies with 3 other kinnies, a Minstrel, Warden (red traited) and a Captain. We were fighting the Huorns and I was testing EoB. I was in determination stance and had TV traited. I would tag the Huorn (70k) first and then would hit EoB. I would then turn my back to the tree and the other 3 kinnies would try to get aggo by doing dps. They could not! We then moved to the 140k Huorns and tried the same thing. The result was the same. I had aggro till the 140k Huorn went down.

This is not proper behavior for a skill. No class in this or any other MMO has that type of an aggro skill.

[SinisterSledge]

And I shall be frist to say I made a mistake, Sry. Im thankful that you helped me.
And tbh, I did miss my last ophthalmology app, last mth.
More light maybe?
But for real. I musta missed understood it for some odd reason. I love EoB\Reso on my wep's. and for what its worht. Truely sry.

[Morat]

And I shall be frist to say I made a mistake, Sry. Im thankful that you helped me.
And tbh, I did miss my last ophthalmology app, last mth.
More light maybe?
But for real. I musta missed understood it for some odd reason. I love EoB\Reso on my wep's. and for what its worht. Truely sry.

Huh? I'm sure I missed something here.

[Illist]

This is not proper behavior for a skill. No class in this or any other MMO has that type of an aggro skill.

Dude, are you trying to get it nerfed? Because saying things like isn't good if you don't want it to happen. In fact I wish no would one have put in the spot light to begin with, but that can't be helped now.

I was doing the same thing in LLG. I was farming trees with a Hunter and Champ friend. I was traited for Aggro, but I would start in Determination. Use EoB and then Fist-shield-fist-shield (the name escapes me atm) and switch to Recklessness to spam Convition mastery buff and apply DoTs. I kept aggro too, but that does NOT mean its broken or needs to be changed. It just means that in good sense, Orion decided since we have to spend pretty much the whole fight keeping deffences up that we shouldn't have to spam aggro skills. I think its perfect.

This threat issue has no reason to be nerfed at all. Threat is meaningless in PvP which makes this purley a PvE concern and tanks should NOT be fighting over who has aggro, it's dumb and dangerous so maybe some Gaurds or Wardens should have their eggos nefred if they feel threatened by this gambit. By necessity to be effective Wardens should be able to tank and not have to worry about loosing aggro so much as in the past 6 months and even before RoI. Like someone said earlier in this very thread, Gaurds have high deffence and should have to work for their threat even though they don't in truth. At least I don't on my Gaurd. The threat generation up legacy makes it so that if they stumble into something by mistake w/ their shield they are getting aggro. Is that okay? Not to mention that with Threat stance and Fighter of the free 4 piece bonus they create +28% percieved threat. Some good Garudian 2nd or 1st age belts can add up to 5% more on passive stats. Wardens USED to have +10% when traited with the yellow legendary cap on, but that is now gone since the trait line is now for ranged DPS and reads -10% percieved threat. Also, our ONLY force taunt now has a 6m 30s - 7m 30s cooldown depending on if you use the super expensive legacy or not. I think this was changed because Battle preperation was introduced to Wardens and they don't want us loading it up before each pull. We would be too much like Gaurds then since they deppend on FT's to get a little aggro and create block chances to get furthur aggro w/ their shields. That is why I understand EoB working as it now does and don't think it makes sense to downgrade it.

All im saying is that, this is logical when you understand that threat isn't an issue in PvP so, no need to nerf it IMO. Someone said threat is a double edged sword and that is very true so, for EoB being as it currently is, great! We Wardens just may NOT want to go spaming it if theres supposed to be tank swaping at all and if not then you won't want to lose the aggro to DPS or heals right? I don't see the problem. I think this is just something ppl should get used to. It won't seem so unusually after they do. I didn't enjoy having to spam threat skills in the past for worry of lossing aggro. I and my DPS like being able to go all out with peace of mind and I think this was intentional when you consider it. It's perfect for our class. Wardens were not meant to have to work so hard for threat, deffence and healing. It just takes too much time to keep it all going and trash pulls are short anyway.

[SharadSun]

Um... This is probably going to sound silly to a lot of people, but why not give the current "Defiant Challenge" Legendary trait TV's current bonuses, delete the Disco Challenge skill entirely, and throw in an actually useful yellow line trait in Terrible Visage's place?

I would slot a legendary trait that gave me EoB's ridiculous aggro abilities, and nobody would be able to complain since we don't have a real forcetaunt. It's a Guard's Challenge but without the buffs.

In fact, make Terrible Visage give EoB its current threat and take away the leeching component entirely, replacing it with maybe a reflective damage shield.

And add some sort of javelin-gambit critical bonus or a +duration to threat reduction buffs in place of the current TV trait.

I don't know, something.

[Darlgon]

Last night I was doing the limelight gorge dailies with 3 other kinnies, a Minstrel, Warden (red traited) and a Captain. We were fighting the Huorns and I was testing EoB. I was in determination stance and had TV traited. I would tag the Huorn (70k) first and then would hit EoB. I would then turn my back to the tree and the other 3 kinnies would try to get aggo by doing dps. They could not! We then moved to the 140k Huorns and tried the same thing. The result was the same. I had aggro till the 140k Huorn went down.

This is not proper behavior for a skill. No class in this or any other MMO has that type of an aggro skill.

When I first read your post, I must stopped reading before your last line.

PFT.. Yes, it should have done that anyway as a properly working skill, because, 1.) your mini and captain should be using skills to drop aggro in thier rotation, unless they are entire smucks who like to get aggro and get beat on, and 2.) a red traited warden would be in Recklessness, so you would be stealing any DPS aggro he had through you being in Determination, your tanking stance. However, since you had Terrible Visage traited, your test was invalid anyway, as Graalx already posted it was broken in relation to EoB.

On reread, I see you turned your back on the mob. So.. that means, you opened with EoB and stood there getting beat on during the entire fight? Wow... that must have taken a while for the other three non-DPS classes to get him down.. Did you watch an entire episode of "How I met your mother" or something?

[Vindrayeth]

There's a really simple fix > Bring EoB back to its unbroken state (it is definitely broken), and give Aggression a boost.

Why this works well (at least for groups of mobs) is that EoB can be popped using [fisp][shfi][shsp], and aggression can then be popped using [fish][spfi], which was already a very solid combo pre-u6. After that it leaves you with Fi[spsh] for a Fierce Resolution, and ofcourse you can mix in double builders to trigger BM.

The thing I don't like is that I find myself using the same aggro cycle (3x EoB basically) whether I am fighting a group or a single mob > that's why it's broken. If you boost aggression but nerf EoB, it will allow me to use different gambits together with Aggression.