Who is excited?

[Thane9]

The question I have for you is, Why mad bro?

Because the game I really enjoy, and have invested much of my freetime in over the past 5+ years is filling up with really terrible people.

I game. I play lots of games, on and off the computer, on and off the internet. I really enjoy competition, I really enjoy having fun with the people I compete with. From football in the fall on a mud soaked field to words with friends before going to sleep at night. It's all fun to me.

And in all of those situations I have a large degree of control over who I play with. In many of them I have exclusive control. Except one. This one.

And yeah, it makes me mad, sad, frustrated, or any other meme you want to quote to look snarky and clever when the people I am encountering aren't people I'd otherwise choose to play with.

People can complain that I play in a way that is unfair, or that I argue a lot, and that they'd rather me not be around...and to be honest I DO listen to that feedback. But I also think quite a lot about my gameplay and how it affects others and I've found that being consistant and even in my gameplay is just the best of what's available to me.

I personally believe fightclubbing and this idea of "respecting" 1v1s when others are around is in the short term and especially the long term bad for the game and only leads to MORE frustrations not less. So I choose to advocate against it, and not engage in it in my own play.

I personally believe the open PvMP model is special and should be preserved. I believe different group sizes and movement across the map provide a lot of dynamic and enjoyable play. Of course this comes with frustrations, but they should be measured against the good times as well. And I believe certain zerg playstyles, the everyone together attitude you find sometimes on freepside, and the wargpack idea we've been seeing on creepside, hurt that open pvmp model. So I've been vocal in my position there as well.

But more than anything, I think the lack of respect, not standing by and watching so a pair can dual for points, but honest to goodness respect is really the problem with Landy currently.

Too many people are judgemental, spiteful, and just angry at each other. And it doesn't even really matter HOW they're playing when that kind of venom is present.

So yeah. I'm mad. I'm mad when someone comes on open forums and states that no one from this server has experience and knowledge of the game.

It's clearly rude. It's clearly not necessary.

[Dolmir]

Because the game I really enjoy, and have invested much of my freetime in over the past 5+ years is filling up with really terrible people.

I game. I play lots of games, on and off the computer, on and off the internet. I really enjoy competition, I really enjoy having fun with the people I compete with. From football in the fall on a mud soaked field to words with friends before going to sleep at night. It's all fun to me.

And in all of those situations I have a large degree of control over who I play with. In many of them I have exclusive control. Except one. This one.

And yeah, it makes me mad, sad, frustrated, or any other meme you want to quote to look snarky and clever when the people I am encountering aren't people I'd otherwise choose to play with.

People can complain that I play in a way that is unfair, or that I argue a lot, and that they'd rather me not be around...and to be honest I DO listen to that feedback. But I also think quite a lot about my gameplay and how it affects others and I've found that being consistant and even in my gameplay is just the best of what's available to me.

I personally believe fightclubbing and this idea of "respecting" 1v1s when others are around is in the short term and especially the long term bad for the game and only leads to MORE frustrations not less. So I choose to advocate against it, and not engage in it in my own play.

I personally believe the open PvMP model is special and should be preserved. I believe different group sizes and movement across the map provide a lot of dynamic and enjoyable play. Of course this comes with frustrations, but they should be measured against the good times as well. And I believe certain zerg playstyles, the everyone together attitude you find sometimes on freepside, and the wargpack idea we've been seeing on creepside, hurt that open pvmp model. So I've been vocal in my position there as well.

But more than anything, I think the lack of respect, not standing by and watching so a pair can dual for points, but honest to goodness respect is really the problem with Landy currently.

Too many people are judgemental, spiteful, and just angry at each other. And it doesn't even really matter HOW they're playing when that kind of venom is present.

So yeah. I'm mad. I'm mad when someone comes on open forums and states that no one from this server has experience and knowledge of the game.

It's clearly rude. It's clearly not necessary.

It's so easy to troll people in this game it's not even fun anymore

[Treelios]

Tree, you are an infantile peon, always have been. Your opinion on anything out here, just like Luc or any other numbnut who really has never played the other side, then tried to make any claims or comments about it, is absolutely fail in everything they do. Until you have played against such odds, you should ####.

Ok,fair enough,I'll let this one go,since you just came back to the game not too long ago or w/e. Or will I?

I have a r8 warg you ####ing idi...nvm...I ranked him up a few months ago when wargs were nothin but defeat responses.Paid to win only 2 skills( tracking targets that are not in stealth being one of them). Soloed my way to r8 and earning the disrespect of many freeps in the process. That whole time,when I was pvping,90% of that was done on creepside,as I rarely played my champ.

So what did I do when wargs got buffed with U6? Stopped playing it.Why? Could't tell you why(I'm not gonna be a hypocrite and say that wargs are too OP now and it would't be a challenge now blahblahblah,because that's not the case). I just missed my champ.
So yeah,you look pretty stupid now.Don't talk about me if you don't know me.

[oninoakuma]

Don't talk about me if you don't know me.

Pot... kettle...

[Aedon]

>2H didn't do that in 10 seconds, let alone 5.
>Outside buffs are NOT a measure of a classes strength, nor their ability to do something. That's like saying a Reaver is OP because they had a WL bubble on them. Come on. I can kill a balrog...with help. Does that make me OP?
>Of COURSE they will. This is what is so sad about so many of the high ranked players on our server. They're SO convinced that they have no chance that they don't even try. Some of you defilers need to take lessons from some CONSIDERABLY lower ranked defilers. And the warg packs...sheesh,...half the warg who pack all the time would present a REALLY good fight for most freeps on their own.

But instead there's this mentality that creeps are just doomed before the fight even begins so we see these playstyles that are just frustrating and not fun for anyone.

There's nothing magical about the handful of players creepside who are VERY VERY challenging for most freeps. They're solid players, no doubt, heck some of them are amazing players. But they have the EXACT same skill buttons and spec options that every other creep has.

I'm personally tired of this attitude that there's this huge power gap when in fact there isn't. There's just a lot of players who believe they've already lost and their experiences just reinforce that thought because they don't try. It's a self fullfilling prophecy.

Luc, come play a creep for one month, it would give you a chance to see how the other side lives. Lotro PVP is simply going nowhere at this time. I kept hoping, like many others that something would happen, something to make it fresh and fun again. But it remains simply something I do at night while waiting for something better.

[Thane9]

Luc, come play a creep for one month, it would give you a chance to see how the other side lives. Lotro PVP is simply going nowhere at this time. I kept hoping, like many others that something would happen, something to make it fresh and fun again. But it remains simply something I do at night while waiting for something better.

PvMP is as fresh and fun as the players make it.

Zergs. Fightclubs. Warg packs. Call outs. Map ins. Keep charges for one kill. These things do not fresh and fun make. But they've become the norm out there.

And guess what? NONE of those things have Turbine to blame.

[Aedon]

PvMP is as fresh and fun as the players make it.

Zergs. Fightclubs. Warg packs. Call outs. Map ins. Keep charges for one kill. These things do not fresh and fun make. But they've become the norm out there.

And guess what? NONE of those things have Turbine to blame.

There you are wrong my friend. Turbine is completely to blame for building this sand box, then filling it with slow drying cement. I have watched the moods and attitudes change over the years as update after update came bringing more empty promises. You cannot expect those on the creep side to smile and keep blindly feeding themselves to an ever stronger freep population without becoming bitter. And though most of us would not expect freeps to forgo using their skills in the moors to help balance things a bit, it is not hard to understand that many of us become angry and jaded watching the nightly zerg fest.

I do not dent that creeps have been guilty in the past of the same behavior, but in my book two wrongs do not make a right. I also think that fight clubs are something not needed in the moors and yet I can understand them a bit as well. For some, the chance to relax without looking over their shoulders for a raid while they test their skills can be quite alluring. Perhaps an arena would have been a great addition to the game.

I do not call out solo freeps, but there are some I will map in to help take down. I do not zerg as a rule. When freep numbers are too low, I will wander the map and pick up stuff, or scout for larger freep numbers. Keep charges for one kill would depend to me on who the freep inside is. Sometimes I will run through the keep and never attack the person inside. It is more to show that yes, you are being watched.

[Gillianrial]

Here's an example of a good character model IMO

My 50 Sage. She's more OP than the real Jaiyne

[Arvaen]

Here's an example of a good character model IMO

My 50 Sage. She's more OP than the real Jaiyne

Wrong thread...?

[whitefox1313]

>2H didn't do that in 10 seconds, let alone 5.

Yes it did. I clearly remember posting the 6.3k RS in OOC channel. The fact that you cannot do it doesnt mean another Champion cant.

I'm personally tired of this attitude that there's this huge power gap when in fact there isn't. There's just a lot of players who believe they've already lost and their experiences just reinforce that thought because they don't try. It's a self fullfilling prophecy.

If i remember properly, you have been challenged by some veterans Creeps from other servers to play a creep for a while, so you can compare and have better perspective about the whole Moors imbalance. This is the thread where i got your statement that made it in my sig. Correct me if im wrong, but you never accepted the challenge so far, right?

Why dont you roll a Creep and come show us how things should be done?

[Gillianrial]

Wrong thread...?

./facepalm

[Anarionadama]

Here's an example of a good character model IMO

My 50 Sage. She's more OP than the real Jaiyne

You should see my Juggernaut

[CRUSHUC]

Luc

What do you consider a wargpack?

Jumping freepside for a few last saturday night and seeing a 3 warg group being called out as a pack made me laugh. That's a small group - not a pack. Little do you know, that most times we run as solos, duos, and trios roaming the map. When we do pack, it's usually to counter the freep zerg. So FYI, most true wargpacks (8-10 or more) only form when the stupidty of the freepnami begins.

We are content to play solo and in small groups and find fights that are similar - heck we'd love to do that every night, but the actions of some on the other side eventually influences how we play. We have a Tribe rule to only pack when necessary, and 99% of the time it's the actions of the freeps that determine when we will pack. Lately it's been a regular event with the scheduled nightly Vins/Bud pve, OC Lugz rez zerg.

Also, there are other tribes out there that run regular packs - so don't lump all wargs together as being in a giant pack. Freepgoggles don't always tell the real truth.

Just some info for you, because you need to know.

[Jungleghost]

Dear Freeps,

I demand you all private message me your creep toon names so I know who I am bashing. It will help with my enjoyment of the game.

Sincerely

Sars.

[Thane9]

Yes it did. I clearly remember posting the 6.3k RS in OOC channel. The fact that you cannot do it doesnt mean another Champion cant.





If i remember properly, you have been challenged by some veterans Creeps from other servers to play a creep for a while, so you can compare and have better perspective about the whole Moors imbalance. This is the thread where i got your statement that made it in my sig. Correct me if im wrong, but you never accepted the challenge so far, right?

Why dont you roll a Creep and come show us how things should be done?

10 seconds is not long enough for those animations to fire. (and if it's close 5 seconds is DEFINITELY not) I don't know how that has anything to do with me vs another champ. It's not long enough. Even if you were standing still taking it as if you were afk. Not to mention the odds of all those dev/crits. It'd be 1 in a million.

I have played creepside. I found it boring. I ranked to R4 in a weekend back in SoA when creeps were TRUELY underpowered. Solo. I realized at that moment that all the crying was just about dying not about the ability to get kills or rank up as a creep. I solo killed a VERY well known Burg at the time too. Want to know how? He was dumb enough to fight near Lugs rez on a red map. I kept charging at him. It took me 4 deaths. He died in the end and I got a nice chunk of infamy. And I kept at it. Other targets were much softer. Minstrels in fact back then beyond 1-2 really skilled ones, were just infamy sacks for my reaver. This was before DR. This was before all the boosts and buffs creeps have gotten. This was before store bought skills. This was before PvE infamy.

Change your mindset. Infamy is forever. Dying is nothing. There is NO PENALTY FOR DYING. Once you've let that go creepside is fine. In fact it's FAR less pressure than freepside where one has to maintain a toon in PvE nearly continually to remain competative in the moors. Consider the time spent dying creepside against the time spent in PvE as a freep. I'd FAR rather die 1000 times in the moors than grind another 10 levels, a whole new set of raid gear, endless traits/virtues/new LIs, relics, ugh....even the thought of all that coming up with Rohan makes me sick.

Creepside, all you have to do is log in and fight. Die, fight some more. Die, fight some more. Keep at them.

---

Instead we see people playing creeps like freeps. Afraid to die. Afraid of not "winning" every fight.

I have no desire to bother playing like that.

[Umbrarg]

Lucybaby - you would have us run constantly and mindlessly in to the Freepie blender, get mushed, res and repeat?

And call that fun?

I'm sorry - we are Suicidal but not stupid. Entertaining fights are what we want, not a slugfest for points.

You are right in that death in the Moors doesn't matter, but can we at least have a little fun along the way?

Love & Hugs

Fluffy Hithy

[Thane9]

Luc

What do you consider a wargpack?

Jumping freepside for a few last saturday night and seeing a 3 warg group being called out as a pack made me laugh. That's a small group - not a pack. Little do you know, that most times we run as solos, duos, and trios roaming the map. When we do pack, it's usually to counter the freep zerg. So FYI, most true wargpacks (8-10 or more) only form when the stupidty of the freepnami begins.

We are content to play solo and in small groups and find fights that are similar - heck we'd love to do that every night, but the actions of some on the other side eventually influences how we play. We have a Tribe rule to only pack when necessary, and 99% of the time it's the actions of the freeps that determine when we will pack. Lately it's been a regular event with the scheduled nightly Vins/Bud pve, OC Lugz rez zerg.

Also, there are other tribes out there that run regular packs - so don't lump all wargs together as being in a giant pack. Freepgoggles don't always tell the real truth.

Just some info for you, because you need to know.

it's not really the # that makes the warg pack...although I think in general people use the term wargpack to describe a group of wargs of some indeterminate size...

Here's my thoughts...

1> I see 1 warg, I fight 1 warg, another warg comes out of stealth and engages...maybe 5 come out of stealth and engage. There is ABSOLUTELY no way for me to know if there's 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 1,000,000 wargs. This is a significant tactical advantage easliy equal to a lot of dps. It forces people to play certain ways...not only DURING a fight with one warg, but before any wargs even appear.

2> Wargpacks- when I refer to them as a playstyle, not a group of wargs, is when a group of stealthed players run together 2-24 and take advantage of their stealth to cherry pick fights. In other words 2 wargs will engage a solo, or even a duo or trio, but will avoid a larger group purposefully. As the # of wargs in the group grows, the liklihood of their play being problematic increases. A group of 10-12 like there was the other night has vitrually NO feasable solution except for freeps to zerg up and sit in one spot. Which I think we can all agree is bad for PvMP. Any other solution would just involve smaller groups getting ganked by wargs while the larger groups of freeps are unable to find any targets to fight. With rare exception of a lucky track, or happenstance, OR using other freeps as bait...which is also just a ganking tactic. Ganking the gankers isn't really that great of an ideal gameplay situation either.

Anyhow, that's what I mean when I refer to the increased frequency of wargpacks. Not as a definition of a group of wargs, but as a playstyle of using stealth to mitigate risk and insure success WITH a class that currently is approaching balance in straight up fights.

It'd be one thing if wargs were SUBSTANTIALLY weaker than freeps. But they're not any more. So this form of play has a lot of downstream impacts to the entire zone.

[Thane9]

Lucybaby - you would have us run constantly and mindlessly in to the Freepie blender, get mushed, res and repeat?

And call that fun?

I'm sorry - we are Suicidal but not stupid. Entertaining fights are what we want, not a slugfest for points.

You are right in that death in the Moors doesn't matter, but can we at least have a little fun along the way?

Love & Hugs

Fluffy Hithy

I never said run constantly and mindlessly into the freepie blender. I cited that one example as to how a VERY weak low rank creep in SoA at the height of creep weakness defeated the strongest Freep class.

As for fun fights. There is not a creep class that at R9 can't have a fun fight with me. In fact, some I believe if played well, are insurmountable to my build. And Champs are supposedly one of the big 3 OP classes right now.

Is there pain and struggle getting to R9 and max audacity and all your skills? ABSOLUTELY. But guess what? Grinding a freep to 75 all those LI grinds, all the virtue grinds, all the ugh...just thinking about it sucks. Freeps have their own annoying play too.

[Umbrarg]

R9+ - check
Skills - check
Audacity - what?
Skill - what?
Leveled Freep - what?
Fun Playing a Warg - priceless

Love & Hugs

Fluffy Hithy

[Wagnard]

A love to read OOC when a warg whine about someone don't want to engage in a "1vs1" when the freep and the warg itself has no idea if the are more wargs nearby.

[Radardog]

I never said run constantly and mindlessly into the freepie blender. I cited that one example as to how a VERY weak low rank creep in SoA at the height of creep weakness defeated the strongest Freep class.

As for fun fights. There is not a creep class that at R9 can't have a fun fight with me. In fact, some I believe if played well, are insurmountable to my build. And Champs are supposedly one of the big 3 OP classes right now.

Is there pain and struggle getting to R9 and max audacity and all your skills? ABSOLUTELY. But guess what? Grinding a freep to 75 all those LI grinds, all the virtue grinds, all the ugh...just thinking about it sucks. Freeps have their own annoying play too.

Things have changed a bit. Today, let's say you charge a Rank 4 reaver into a top RK.

Fight 1: You lose after 6 hits maximum.
Fight 2: RK still at attunement. You lose in 3 hits.
Fight 3: RK still at attunement. You lose in 3 hits.
Fight 4: RK still at attunement. You lose in 3 hits.
.
.
.

How many fights do you think it would take to completely drain that RK of power in 3 hit lumps?
(Probably more than anyone's willing to spend their night on).


RK, Minstrel, Glory 2H Champs.

All three you're not going to beat through cooldown burning as a Rank 4 Reaver.

The difference between an "OP" freep class, and a fresh FTP Reaver has never been greater, including from start of SOA, in my opinion. While the mid - high ranked creeps probably are way more competitive, let's not forget those just starting have a HUGE hill to climb.

To end, just because freeps have annoying play doesn't mean another player base needs to be cursed too. I know misery loves company, but I think this is why many people are very excited for a few upcoming MMOs; you shouldn't have to work to have fun in a game. The game should be fun the entire time.

[tykoshi]

it's not really the # that makes the warg pack...although I think in general people use the term wargpack to describe a group of wargs of some indeterminate size...

Here's my thoughts...

1> I see 1 warg, I fight 1 warg, another warg comes out of stealth and engages...maybe 5 come out of stealth and engage. There is ABSOLUTELY no way for me to know if there's 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 1,000,000 wargs. This is a significant tactical advantage easliy equal to a lot of dps. It forces people to play certain ways...not only DURING a fight with one warg, but before any wargs even appear.

2> Wargpacks- when I refer to them as a playstyle, not a group of wargs, is when a group of stealthed players run together 2-24 and take advantage of their stealth to cherry pick fights. In other words 2 wargs will engage a solo, or even a duo or trio, but will avoid a larger group purposefully. As the # of wargs in the group grows, the liklihood of their play being problematic increases. A group of 10-12 like there was the other night has vitrually NO feasable solution except for freeps to zerg up and sit in one spot. Which I think we can all agree is bad for PvMP. Any other solution would just involve smaller groups getting ganked by wargs while the larger groups of freeps are unable to find any targets to fight. With rare exception of a lucky track, or happenstance, OR using other freeps as bait...which is also just a ganking tactic. Ganking the gankers isn't really that great of an ideal gameplay situation either.

Anyhow, that's what I mean when I refer to the increased frequency of wargpacks. Not as a definition of a group of wargs, but as a playstyle of using stealth to mitigate risk and insure success WITH a class that currently is approaching balance in straight up fights.

It'd be one thing if wargs were SUBSTANTIALLY weaker than freeps. But they're not any more. So this form of play has a lot of downstream impacts to the entire zone.

Luc - either roll a warg and learn the truth or let it go. Your obsession with numbers, your relentless refusal to equate skills and tactics as viable parts of the attack and your overall freep goggles blind you beyond any and all reason to what's real. I offered up the challenge once, I'll lay it down again. Roll a warg and see from the other side. Until you do, you'll have zero concept of what really happens.

For one thing, I have seen skilled champs (Dupres springs immediately to mind, as does Tarsolo) take down at least 4 wargs. There are a few of gaurdians who are just as skilled. Cynthri is a terror as a warden. Jaiyne and Dagr are two examples of skilled minis who can down 5 or 6. RKs? Celebreana and Rauva hold their own against multiple wargs. So people who have the same skill buttons you have manage against small groups very well.

As far as the larger packs, I can speak only to what SWS does. Most of us are content to solo and roam the map and do as much as we can. But once the zergnami begins rushing in, we use packing as a tool to counter and at least give ourselves a fighting chance. Yes, I've said before that we will set upon solos and lone players if we encounter them as we maneuver, but we take our numbers against the freep raid quite often as well. But my point is that if you see SWS packed in a larger group, it's 99% likely it's in response to what's going on freepside (we do, on occasion, hold a pre-planned warg pack night).

-pup-

[Thane9]

Things have changed a bit. Today, let's say you charge a Rank 4 reaver into a top RK.

Fight 1: You lose after 6 hits maximum.
Fight 2: RK still at attunement. You lose in 3 hits.
Fight 3: RK still at attunement. You lose in 3 hits.
Fight 4: RK still at attunement. You lose in 3 hits.
.
.
.

How many fights do you think it would take to completely drain that RK of power in 3 hit lumps?
(Probably more than anyone's willing to spend their night on).


RK, Minstrel, Glory 2H Champs.

All three you're not going to beat through cooldown burning as a Rank 4 Reaver.

The difference between an "OP" freep class, and a fresh FTP Reaver has never been greater, including from start of SOA, in my opinion. While the mid - high ranked creeps probably are way more competitive, let's not forget those just starting have a HUGE hill to climb.

To end, just because freeps have annoying play doesn't mean another player base needs to be cursed too. I know misery loves company, but I think this is why many people are very excited for a few upcoming MMOs; you shouldn't have to work to have fun in a game. The game should be fun the entire time.

So as a solo reaver I wouldn't engage those classes...I'd ignore them and look for the farmers in Grothum or try to catch newbs who only know how to join the raid and leech off of their protection. There ARE options. None of which require standing across from one's opponent and jumping up and down to initiate a "fair" fight.

I still disagree with the R0 reaver relative to a freep...but either way let's just agree that they're BOTH at a massive disadvantage. PvE infamy and the rather minimal amount needed to get those first 5 ranks really help that cause.

Luc - either roll a warg and learn the truth or let it go. Your obsession with numbers, your relentless refusal to equate skills and tactics as viable parts of the attack and your overall freep goggles blind you beyond any and all reason to what's real. I offered up the challenge once, I'll lay it down again. Roll a warg and see from the other side. Until you do, you'll have zero concept of what really happens.

For one thing, I have seen skilled champs (Dupres springs immediately to mind, as does Tarsolo) take down at least 4 wargs. There are a few of gaurdians who are just as skilled. Cynthri is a terror as a warden. Jaiyne and Dagr are two examples of skilled minis who can down 5 or 6. RKs? Celebreana and Rauva hold their own against multiple wargs. So people who have the same skill buttons you have manage against small groups very well.

As far as the larger packs, I can speak only to what SWS does. Most of us are content to solo and roam the map and do as much as we can. But once the zergnami begins rushing in, we use packing as a tool to counter and at least give ourselves a fighting chance. Yes, I've said before that we will set upon solos and lone players if we encounter them as we maneuver, but we take our numbers against the freep raid quite often as well. But my point is that if you see SWS packed in a larger group, it's 99% likely it's in response to what's going on freepside (we do, on occasion, hold a pre-planned warg pack night).

-pup-

I've taken down 4 wargs, in red line-fervour no less. But I've also been beat by solo wargs. Anecdotal stories have NO relavence to true power analysis.

But I think it's really your last sentence is what REALLY speaks to my point.

"It's 99% likely it's in response to what's going on freepside."

I swear, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to KNOW FOR A FACT that the vast majority of freeps would say their actions are for the EXACT SAME REASON. It doesn't matter if the warg pack is the chicken OR the egg...both aren't steak. BRING ON THE STEAK.

Freeps zerg because creeps zerg and pack. Creeps zerg and pack because freeps zerg.

SOMEONE has to step up and break that cycle. USE THE MAP. SPLIT UP. Look for alternative fighting.
Don't use the outliers and the perceptions dictate your gameplay. Don't RESPOND to others play make them respond to yours.

If there weren't creeps zerging EC all day, the freeps wouldn't go there and they'd have to move around the map. If there weren't freeps hanging out at EC looking for the creeps all day then the creeps would have little reason to fight at EC.

The list of this circular reasoning when it comes to PvMP gameplay could go on for days.

Yet cries for a new map continue. And cries for people to stop zerging continue. And cries for "better" gameplay continue.

Try something new. Look for other opportunities. The more players who make an active decision to do that the more players will FIND just that. And the more fun we'll all have.

ORRRR>....just keep doing what we're doing and keep complaining...and have fun with GW2.

[oninoakuma]

Freeps zerg because creeps zerg and pack. Creeps zerg and pack because freeps zerg.

SOMEONE has to step up and break that cycle. USE THE MAP. SPLIT UP. Look for alternative fighting.
Don't use the outliers and the perceptions dictate your gameplay. Don't RESPOND to others play make them respond to yours.

You are so vastly out of touch with what actually goes on, its astounding to me.

Creeps go to elf camp, cause freeps go to elf camp. When vinny puts a zergball together, its famine, ungrouped creeps with some exceptions are starved of infamy, so if there are 3 freeps dumb enough to go into excecution camp, those starving creeps will all migrate there, that's your zerg.

I have INTENTIONALLY, not led for a huge amount of the past few weeks, whats happened? A few creeps tried to step up and lead groups to get smashed, if small groups roam, like I try to do, they get called out as 3 at GV three at TR 3 at Spider and get mauled by the zerg. I assure you, the freeps raidbaby list far exceeds the creeps list of the same name. That's the same reason that when one of those leaders logs, all the freep players vanish.

Oh yea, hows that warg coming along?

[Thane9]

You are so vastly out of touch with what actually goes on, its astounding to me.

Creeps go to elf camp, cause freeps go to elf camp. When vinny puts a zergball together, its famine, ungrouped creeps with some exceptions are starved of infamy, so if there are 3 freeps dumb enough to go into excecution camp, those starving creeps will all migrate there, that's your zerg.

I have INTENTIONALLY, not led for a huge amount of the past few weeks, whats happened? A few creeps tried to step up and lead groups to get smashed, if small groups roam, like I try to do, they get called out as 3 at GV three at TR 3 at Spider and get mauled by the zerg. I assure you, the freeps raidbaby list far exceeds the creeps list of the same name. That's the same reason that when one of those leaders logs, all the freep players vanish.

Oh yea, hows that warg coming along?

Tell me this...since you're so "in touch".

What reason do freeps have to go to EC? The only game mechanic that exists at EC is to spend tokens to send An in to TA. Or MAYBE to kill 10 wolves as part of the HH quest. (although there's literally 3 groups of those wolves closer to the quest giver and turn-in.

Are honestly suggesting it's "out of touch" to call it what it is? Circular logic.

Freeps go there because they know they'll find creeps there.
Creeps go there because they know they'll find freeps there.
Both of which have been reinforced via a mechanism of conditioning. Players on both sides have made a habit of going there.

But the root reasons are the same. To suggest that freeps just go there for NO reason, only leaving creeps once choice but to go there to find a fight is beyond silly.

As for diminishing numbers when the raids break up this happens on both sides evenly (often because they're the exact same players).

Come on. This isn't at ALL, not one teensy whit, about creep or freep. This is the PLAYERS doing. BOTH sides do it. Both sides cite the OTHER side as their excuse.

Neither side has some sort of higher ground of blame. People on both sides honestly BELIEVE they cannot win unless they are zerged up because they honestly believe the other side ALWAYS zergs up.

It's bs on both sides.

There's nothing out of touch with recognizing the truth. but if you want to continue to paint creeps as being the victims and being "forced" to play this way to be able to have fun or survive, fine. But I know better.

BOTH sides are to blame. BOTH sides play exactly the same.

Really the only difference is in addition to the zerg, creeps (due to the higher relative population density of their stealth class) have the option of warg packs as well. Burg packs DO happen, but it's pretty clear to see that it's less common just due to the limiting factor of numbers.

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My guess? If these trends continue, we'll see an increase of burg packs too. But again, that's strictly limited by numbers whereas creepside anyone can pop on a warg and at least join, even if they're not going to be very effective.