The Trapper of Foes - Is it all that bad

[00CloughRN]

So it seems to me a lot of Hunters don't feel they have an viable alternative role, and that the Trapper of Foes is not a useful trait line. I was just wondering... why? I lead T1 raids in Tower of Orthanc regularly and quite often take yellow traited Hunters as CC classes, and I struggle to see how they are deemed not viable.

First lets consider what they bring to the CC table in comparison to a LM.

Dazes: Both classes have a 30s Daze, on 15s CD at 40m range.
Roots: Both have a 30s root. Huners have a longer cooldown but hits more targets unless the LM traits for it. The Hunter root is also slightly easier to break. There is also cracked earth for LM which is very tricky to use effectivly.
Fear. The hunter has a 20s Fear on a 30s cooldown. LM has a tricky 15s fear on a 1 min cooldown.

So a hunter doesn't seem to be any worse at CC

And the rest. Obviously CC only takes up some of your time. You broadly have buff/debuff and damage. Clearly a LM is better suited to buff/debuffs, but a hunter isn't without their tools, I guess your big thing here is your penetrating shot which get the 4 set bonus. As for damage yes you'll be loosing some, but is it really that much, especially if you have a damage bow, and just switch to your trapper bow for CC.

So yes a LM might be better, but I don't see that a Hunter CC is any less of a viable alternative role than the alternate role of the other classes.

Now hopefully you'll get this far before responding, I'm not arguing your evaluation of your yellow line is wrong, and that you should stop complaining, I'd just like to hear some arguments as to why it is deemed so useless.

[Issachar44]

I'm not a raider or PVP'er, and most of the time in PvE I'm playing solo. So my perspective is limited.

That said, I've been running 5y 2b for awhile now, and really enjoying it. I like having the tools to deal with mobs joining the fight unexpectedly. And it feels like mobs are still dying fast enough, without me traiting red.

In the occasional PUG or instance with friendly NPCs, I find the ToF battlefield control skills work pretty well (unless a boss is immune to CC).

So whenever I see the common complaint that Trapper of Foes is broken or needs to be blown up, I disagree. There *are* some improvements I'd like to see:

* Shorter induction for Distracting Shot/Explosive Arrow
* Combat Traps lets you use Set Snare in combat
* Stealthy Shot is misplaced -- a threat management trait would be better suited for the red line
* The usefulness of Sturdy Traps doesn't scale beyond the low levels
* Heart of the Bard isn't good enough to find a place in any build I can think of

So yes, I'd like the yellow line to be made a little bit stronger. But it doesn't need major surgery...or euthanasia.

[Zulubeast]

Trapper line isn't useless, it's just been mismanaged by the dev team into a jack-of-all-trades where they threw useless traits into it to fill the 8 different traits each line got.

-Stealthy Shot is useless. Why have a threat reducing trait in the CC category?
-Heightened Senses is only useful in the moors if you're constantly looking for wargs and if your raid group doesn't have a LM or competent captains to keep your power up. If you don't have those two classes, obviously your raid has some other issues I won't address at all.
-Heart of the Bard? Come on. Who uses that in a CC rotation let alone a DPS rotation besides when you have the -75% attack speed buff in saruman.
-Barbed Hindrance - MAYBE useful if a mob is really annoying your group, but then if you want to CC it after it's slowed, your bleeds will just break it anyways making it also useless as an effective CC.

As a hunter who used to CC a lot of T2 lightning/FnF/Shadow, I know that we have very effective CC, but that's based on skills that have nothing to do with the trapper line and needing a CC bow, rather than 4 random traits + the 5s fear increase to get the yellow capstone.

[Aedfrith]

An LM can heal, remove wounds/diseases and, importantly, share power. And chip in with the occasional big burst KABOOM skill. The root we have is a horribly long cooldown. To be meaningful CC allowing chain-mezzing, we have to go 5 yellow with (as Zulu said) some truly naff traits that are in the wrong lines.

That said, I do recognise that sometimes yellow traits are useful, and I tend to go 5b/2y in Ettens. I have considered going 5b/2y in ToO as well - slotting Strong Intimidation for the strongest fear of any class, and either Barbed Hindrance or Combat Traps. But so far the advantages of 2 reds (Critical Eye and True Shot or Hail of Arrows) are too strong to ignore. I might try 5b/2y the next time we're in ToO T1.

[rocksteadie]

I have both a lvl 75 hunter and 75 LM that I raid within the Tower. My hunter is actually my main.
For CC I prefer to take the LM as none of the yellow line traits are redundant - they provide both CC and debuffing and I can provide a little bit of damage.
Trapper isn't that bad but as Zulubeast says, most of the yellow traits are redundant and you have to swap out to a CC bow to get the 15 secs cooldown on Distracting Shot. A LM traited yellow gets 15 secs cooldown on Blinding Flash. Additionally a LM can trait Fast Loader to remove the induction. If only a hunter could remove their inductions...
I certainly feel more stressed CCing within the Tower using my hunter than when using my LM.

This is a good post on what an LM brings to Tower raids - a bit off topic I know: http://docholidaymmo.com/2012/06/06/...a-lore-master/ and scroll to the bit "Lore-masters make hard content easier, and impossible content possible".

I still love my hunter but I prefer to make things go BOOM very quickly with her!

[Tchad]

An LM can heal, remove wounds/diseases and, importantly, share power. And chip in with the occasional big burst KABOOM skill. The root we have is a horribly long cooldown. To be meaningful CC allowing chain-mezzing, we have to go 5 yellow with (as Zulu said) some truly naff traits that are in the wrong lines.

That said, I do recognise that sometimes yellow traits are useful, and I tend to go 5b/2y in Ettens. I have considered going 5b/2y in ToO as well - slotting Strong Intimidation for the strongest fear of any class, and either Barbed Hindrance or Combat Traps. But so far the advantages of 2 reds (Critical Eye and True Shot or Hail of Arrows) are too strong to ignore. I might try 5b/2y the next time we're in ToO T1.

Hunters can go CC and still do a decent dps. Lms can go CC and do very bad dps, but support better with debuffs and power share.

The topic only meant hunters have a second role. Hunters can be very good CCers when needed.

I agree that the traits on ToF line need some work, but that is another matter. The fact is: we do have a second role.

BTW: I almost always go 5b, 1r (-8% pen shot mits), 1y. The yellow is for power or aggro management, depending on the situation. For 1v1 I use Barbed Hindrance. Hunter 1v1 with barbed hindrance and legs trait rot and bard arrow is a pain.

[xxforcardassia]

I think the biggest problem hunters seem to have is the fact that they can't just go RAWRPEWPEW "as effectively" when traited in the ToF line.

Personally, I've been into t2 Lightning traited CC on my hunter and the only struggle we ever encounter is not being able to sync two hunter's firing off DS. It does feel a bit slower, and our attention does need to be divided between the CC target and the DPS target. But overall it's just as effective as far as controlling targets as a LM or burg is traited this was.

I'm probably one of the few hunters that does carry a CC bow in addition to my normal damage bow. Seems the logical thing to do, and has helped to have on a couple of occasions even when not fully traited into the ToF line.

[VincentVanPort]

To me the solution is simple:

The LM has to primary roles: CC and Debuffing. He can fulfil both with traiting yellow. Basically he has one traitline fpr his two roles.

The hunter has a primary role in DPS and a secondary in CC. In order to fulfil his secondary role to the maximum he has to trait yellow while his primary role suffers greatly through the lack of DPS.

To me Hunter CC is, even when yellow traited, by far less useful than the LMs or even the Burglar's. The reasons are the main gripes I have with my class in general. The CC is slow, undirected and has prerequisites to use. Either we have awfully long inductions and cooldowns, focus costs, have to draw the opponent into the CC-area and have both a physical as well as a tacitcal component meaning that many skills require a B/P/E check as well as a Resist check.

If you compare Distracting Shot with the LMs mezz you will have the following: 1,4s induction vs. instant skill, 30s CD vs 10(20?)s CD and a duration of 30 seconds. I haven't touched my LM since SoM but I still believe it could be possible to chain mez two targets still. Without the legacy on my LI (which would be a waste) I will have to wait until my target loses the mezz until I can mez it again, because the Duration equals the CC.
The same with Herblore agains Rain of Thorns. It is just better.

Now I do not say it is useless. But it is inferior to other classes' CC in groups or raids. If you raid T1 it usually does not matter, since it is supposed to be for casuals. In T2 a mob that is out of CC for the two secodns it takes a hunter to mez it again this mob can wipe a whole raid or cause hardmode to fail.

On the other hand most of our CC is not even added by the yellow line. Bards and RoT come from legendaries. Both fears are standard skills. Crafted traps are usable in comba anyway and normal traps can be put down out of fight. So even if you prefer to use ToF for soloing Limlight gorge it does not help you that much, you can do so with every other traitline as well.

Edit:

BTW: I almost always go 5b, 1r (-8% pen shot mits), 1y. The yellow is for power or aggro management, depending on the situation. For 1v1 I use Barbed Hindrance. Hunter 1v1 with barbed hindrance and legs trait rot and bard arrow is a pain.

Do you run with breach-finder? If so then your red trait is useless, breach finder decreases ranged mitigation that much, that the rating from the red trait (can not recall the name of the english trait) will not subtract a significant percentage, if any. Anyway Swift and true is way more useful. Also the problem with traiting one of each is always the loss of the 2-deep trait bonus. I'd rather advise you to use another red trait. If you use Barbed Arrow anyway you might want to buff it by it's trait or critical eye is always a good choice.
I guess with threat managment you mean stealthy shot? You do know that it does not dump aggro, right? If the tank can not build enough aggro while negligible (? sry can not check my lorebook does not work) is active you will get the aggro back as soon as it runs out.

[NobodySpcl]

I have both a lvl 75 hunter and 75 LM that I raid within the Tower. My hunter is actually my main.
For CC I prefer to take the LM as none of the yellow line traits are redundant - they provide both CC and debuffing and I can provide a little bit of damage.
Trapper isn't that bad but as Zulubeast says, most of the yellow traits are redundant and you have to swap out to a CC bow to get the 15 secs cooldown on Distracting Shot. A LM traited yellow gets 15 secs cooldown on Blinding Flash. Additionally a LM can trait Fast Loader to remove the induction. If only a hunter could remove their inductions...
I certainly feel more stressed CCing within the Tower using my hunter than when using my LM.

This is a good post on what an LM brings to Tower raids - a bit off topic I know: http://docholidaymmo.com/2012/06/06/...a-lore-master/ and scroll to the bit "Lore-masters make hard content easier, and impossible content possible".

I still love my hunter but I prefer to make things go BOOM very quickly with her!

A yellow hunter needs a second heavily traited LI to be good at CC. Don't LM's get it for free?

[Tchad]

To me the solution is simple:

The LM has to primary roles: CC and Debuffing. He can fulfil both with traiting yellow. Basically he has one traitline fpr his two roles.

The hunter has a primary role in DPS and a secondary in CC. In order to fulfil his secondary role to the maximum he has to trait yellow while his primary role suffers greatly through the lack of DPS.

To me Hunter CC is, even when yellow traited, by far less useful than the LMs or even the Burglar's. The reasons are the main gripes I have with my class in general. The CC is slow, undirected and has prerequisites to use. Either we have awfully long inductions and cooldowns, focus costs, have to draw the opponent into the CC-area and have both a physical as well as a tacitcal component meaning that many skills require a B/P/E check as well as a Resist check.

If you compare Distracting Shot with the LMs mezz you will have the following: 1,4s induction vs. instant skill, 30s CD vs 10(20?)s CD and a duration of 30 seconds. I haven't touched my LM since SoM but I still believe it could be possible to chain mez two targets still. Without the legacy on my LI (which would be a waste) I will have to wait until my target loses the mezz until I can mez it again, because the Duration equals the CC.
The same with Herblore agains Rain of Thorns. It is just better.

Now I do not say it is useless. But it is inferior to other classes' CC in groups or raids. If you raid T1 it usually does not matter, since it is supposed to be for casuals. In T2 a mob that is out of CC for the two secodns it takes a hunter to mez it again this mob can wipe a whole raid or cause hardmode to fail.

Hunter CC is almost as good as LM. Don't forget about the penshot bpe debuff and cleaning poison from the fellowship (some instances poison can be a pain). All that and still able to do decent dmg.

I have a LM, which was my 1st toon and still the class that I know better. I know the difference and I can say that a hunter can fill the CC needs of a raid with 0 problems, even T2 ToO. I have been there many times, with 0 problems.

With the induction and the bigger CD on DS (comparing with LM BF) hunters doing CC just need to pay more attention on the locked mob. For some instances a raid can benefit more by having a LM+Hunter doing CC then just 2 LMs.

On the other hand most of our CC is not even added by the yellow line. Bards and RoT come from legendaries. Both fears are standard skills. Crafted traps are usable in comba anyway and normal traps can be put down out of fight. So even if you prefer to use ToF for soloing Limlight gorge it does not help you that much, you can do so with every other traitline as well.

I agree that yellow traits need some or a lot of work, but a hunter need to go yellow line to have the trait line bonuses that enable hunter to fill the CC role. Lm CC trait line only have 1 trait for CC, fast loader, all other make debuff better, not CC. Two traits if u count deeplore, that will make herblore (root) and stormlore (3s stun) affect more +5 targets.

Edit:


Do you run with breach-finder? If so then your red trait is useless, breach finder decreases ranged mitigation that much, that the rating from the red trait (can not recall the name of the english trait) will not subtract a significant percentage, if any. Anyway Swift and true is way more useful. Also the problem with traiting one of each is always the loss of the 2-deep trait bonus. I'd rather advise you to use another red trait. If you use Barbed Arrow anyway you might want to buff it by it's trait or critical eye is always a good choice.
I guess with threat managment you mean stealthy shot? You do know that it does not dump aggro, right? If the tank can not build enough aggro while negligible (? sry can not check my lorebook does not work) is active you will get the aggro back as soon as it runs out.

Stealthy Shot = -10% Damage Threat + longer and better BN. That trait + the threat class book work wonders to me for shorts fights where we need to go crazy from the start and/or in fights where tank swapping is needed.

Heightened Senses = -10% power cost. I use even outside moors, for longer fights that I don't need to pay much attention on aggro. Faron set eats power.

True Shot = -8% pen shot mitigation. I did some tests a while ago when they took penshot CD and pen shot was doing more dmg with the trait. I don't remember if breech-finder was applied, but I will test again or if u can parse your tests it will save me some time.

I am well aware of loosing the 2y or 2r bonus set. So far I am very happy with that my traits. I will review my moors traits if you are right about the pen shot working the same with or without the -8% mits if breech-finder is applied, then I will probably go 2y: Barbed Hindrance + Heightened Senses (I hate wargs, hehehe).

[ChromiteSwiftpaw]

Hunter CC is almost as good as LM. Don't forget about the penshot bpe debuff and cleaning poison from the fellowship (some instances poison can be a pain)

Limitations with the group poison removal:

1) Longer cooldown with group poison removal vs. single target poison removal.
2) Single target poison removal no longer works, it's replaced by the group one. Therefore you can only cast it on your group and not those outside of your group. If you're the only hunter in the Helegrod Spider wing and you are traited to enable this, the other group is screwed.

[Tchad]

Limitations with the group poison removal:

1) Longer cooldown with group poison removal vs. single target poison removal.
2) Single target poison removal no longer works, it's replaced by the group one. Therefore you can only cast it on your group and not those outside of your group. If you're the only hunter in the Helegrod Spider wing and you are traited to enable this, the other group is screwed.

So? Same with LM:

1) LM cures have 10s cd by default and 5s cd with 3 blue traits from the set bonus (and the LM will lose a lot of debuffs duration and magnitude).
2) LM cures single target don't work if proof against all ills are traited and can only be cast on your group.

Don't know about mini and cappy fear removal, but I think the same or close constrains apply. 0 CD effect removal skills on the full raid would be too good (LM used to have 0 CD on the two old kills to remove disease and wounds, and they nerfed when the combined into a single skill, but was always limited to the fellowsihp).

With or without deep yellow line, no hunter alone will be able to remove all poisons and keep the full raid poison free, not even from his group, on spider wing.