Gandalf the White vs The Witch King of Angmar

[Torweld]

That was why the One Ring could tempt Gandalf: through the offer of strength the Red Ring didn't offer, and as a weapon that he could have turned straight against the Enemy.

The One was specifically designed to tempt. That was part of its innate function. The Three were not. It is also a lot easier to be tempted to use an actual sword in war than it is to think to sharpen a farm implement. That does not mean the latter cannot become a weapon.

That would be because I know what 'canon' means. The published Sil isn't an 'entirety', it's a patchwork, the best Chris Tolkien could do at the time to make it publishable.

Canon is normally what is published, unless superseded by later canon. If Chris really didn't consider parts of the Silmarillion 'canon' he could have chosen not to publish those parts.

That Strider might have ended up a Hobbit is academic, since that isn't what Tolkien finally set down and published. The fact that Tolkien didn't decide until later that the ring Bilbo gained and Gollum lost is academic, since we are not told in the Hobbit that it is not the One.

That Balrogs seemed weaker in the earlier parts of the Silmarillion is consistent with Lord of The Rings in that we are given no reason to assume they are all equal in power, and we are told outright that the Elves are not as powerful as they were in the first age. It is also reasonable to assume it was the stronger Balrog that survived. Even if Chris says outright that his father changed his mind (which is not what he said in the quote you provided) the story remains consistent regardless.

Even the fact that Tolkien had been re-writing early battles is not conclusive, in that those stories were not finished and he could have changed his mind again. Just as the OP's question is moot in that the Witch King fell to Eowyn and there was thus never any direct no holes barred confrontation, what might have been canon remains 'might have been.' The author died and thus it is what was actually published rather than what you think should have been, or even what he might have thought should have been.

[Radhruin_EU]

The One was specifically designed to tempt. That was part of its innate function.

Hardly, because Sauron never intended that the Ring would ever leave his hand. The Ring tempted people partly because of the power it could offer, and partly because it had some measure of malign will of its own and would make use of anyone it could.

Canon is normally what is published, unless superseded by later canon. If Chris really didn't consider parts of the Silmarillion 'canon' he could have chosen not to publish those parts.

No, canon is the author's own authentic work,and that's not wholly true of the Sil because parts of it had to be cobbled together by Chris Tolkien. You have to read the relevant volumes of HoME to find out what's up with each bit.

That Strider might have ended up a Hobbit is academic, since that isn't what Tolkien finally set down and published. The fact that Tolkien didn't decide until later that the ring Bilbo gained and Gollum lost is academic, since we are not told in the Hobbit that it is not the One.

It demonstrates what I said, that if Tolkien had continued to write a direct sequel to The Hobbit rather than extensively reconsidering things, what we would have got would have been another fairy-story. It is also far from academic about how Bilbo came by the Ring - Tolkien had to retcon the encounter between Bilbo and Gollum for the second edition of The Hobbit, because it was wildly inconsistent with LOTR's central idea of the ring being 'that' Ring.

That Balrogs seemed weaker in the earlier parts of the Silmarillion is consistent with Lord of The Rings in that we are given no reason to assume they are all equal in power, and we are told outright that the Elves are not as powerful as they were in the first age. It is also reasonable to assume it was the stronger Balrog that survived. Even if Chris says outright that his father changed his mind (which is not what he said in the quote you provided) the story remains consistent regardless.

Chris Tolkien said that (to paraphrase) his father's early notion of Balrogs had them as more numerous, less terrible and definitely easier to destroy than they were became in later work. There is no one overall, consistent 'story': Tolkien was always reconsidering things, he's infamous for that. No, you are not being 'reasonable' in the least because the continuity changes are quite genuine.

The whole reason CT added that note was that the original version of TFoG is not consistent with later work. If you'd read it, you might understand why; it's hardly surprising, since that was the first such tale Tolkien ever wrote. That lack of consistency is what forced CT to work up a different version that could be included in the Sil and not look out of place.

Even the fact that Tolkien had been re-writing early battles is not conclusive, in that those stories were not finished and he could have changed his mind again. Just as the OP's question is moot in that the Witch King fell to Eowyn and there was thus never any direct no holes barred confrontation, what might have been canon remains 'might have been.' The author died and thus it is what was actually published rather than what you think should have been, or even what he might have thought should have been.

LOTR is canon. Fully authentic, no debate. What it says, goes. That's not the case with the whole of the Sil; Tolkien never finished fiddling with it and died before it was even close to being finished, much less published. The result is that the Sil isn't wholly authentic, it's just the best stab CT could make at presenting something coherent at the time, back in the Seventies.

[BirdofHermes]

Hello,

So in the movies, the Witch King seemed stronger. And I'm currently reading The Two Towers, so I don't know yet. But in my thoughts, Gandalf got a "promotion" to Gandalf the White, and nevertheless, even as Gandalf the Gray, he was a maia, but The Witch King ain't no maia. He was a MAN, a king of men better said, but he got corrupted by his ring. So, in the movie it's also stated that "No man can kill him", maybe that is true but Gandalf only took form as a man, but he was more powerful than that.

So what are your thoughts?

Gandalf the Grey managed to fight off all 9 Nazgûl for a whole night.
imo Gandalf the White, with seemingly some of his restrictions lifted, would send two smoking Witch-king boots back to Minas Morgul, so to speak.

[Curandhras]

I always hate watching that scene in the films.

Gandalf is/was a Maia, as "the Grey" he was restricted and forbidden from too openly involving himself in the fight against Sauron (who too, was a Maia). When he returned, unbridled and his potential fully realised as "the White" he would be more than a match for the Witch King. As powerful as the Witch King was in the eyes of Men and some lesser Elves, even, it is probably wise to remember than Glorfindel had the beating of the Witch King when he was at his pomp in Angmar.

If you are of the mind set that Glorfindel is the very same Glorfindel that threw down a Balrog (which I am) then it is fair to assume that anyone who can best a Balrog has a fair shout against the Witch King, too. Gandalf in his role as "second" to Saruman killed a Balrog. How you take his eventual death in that battle I suppose depends on how you see his relative power in that form. It seems, to me, that the Valar were not satisfied with Gandalf's influence in his Grey form. Saruman had been corrupted by Sauron and clearly Gandalf was needed, in his pre Middle Earth watered down format. I think his "death" after beating the Balrog was a convenient moment for this transformation, so maybe he could have survived the battle, had the powers that be not decided that it was a good time to give him a reboot.

So, my point is, Gandalf's various feats in his "grey" form more than allude to him being far more than a match to the Witch King in his "white" form. It is important to remember that Gandalf's key strength lies in his ability to influence and inspire people, he essentially masterminded the entire War of the Ring as it happens in the books, including with reclaiming Erebor for the Dwarves in the Hobbit. His prowess in combat is likely not unmatched. I think, though, in his holding off of multiple Nazgul at once, it is fair to assume he can handle himself.

I think, frankly, if the confrontation had happened as it had in the film, Merry's knife would have been redundant.

As an aside, Glorfindel's prediction that no man would kill the Witch King, "Not by the hand of man shall he fall" is accurate even if man is taken to mean "human". It is actually Merry's enchanted knife which breaks the Witch King's enchantments, and is responsible for his "doom" as Glorfindel says. The fact that a westernesse blade wielded by a Hobbit was enough to break this spell suggests that Gandalf the White would have very little trouble indeed.

With regards to the inconsistencies and retconning of Tolkein's works, I think it's fair to say when you write as much lore as he did, it's going to contradict its self occasionally. The thing to remember, though, is that in his mind it wouldn't have. Where we read things and take meanings to be contradictory, there is almost certainly an explanation that died with Tolkein that clears it up.

[Vilnas]

Gandalf the Grey managed to fight off all 9 Nazgûl for a whole night.

I could be mistaken, but it is my understanding that not all of the Nine were present when Gandalf was attacked at Weathertop. Just a point of clarification - I don't mean this as a comment on Gandalf's power one way or the other.

[BirdofHermes]

I could be mistaken, but it is my understanding that not all of the Nine were present when Gandalf was attacked at Weathertop. Just a point of clarification - I don't mean this as a comment on Gandalf's power one way or the other.

There were 9. At dawn, Gandalf went south in the hopes of drawing them away from Weathertop so that Frodo (whom Gandalf knew was on his way) could pass there. Only 4 followed Gandalf, 5 remained sneaking around Weathertop.

[Mithernil]

Reps all around, great discussion thread...loving it.
After having read Tolkien's books concerning ME many times (though it's at least 20 years ago, so forgive me one or the other incosistency on my side ), I would surely agree, that the WiKi was a match for Gandalf, but finally Gandalf would prevail.
On the other hand, I think it is dangerous to just eluminate the strengths' of mind, skill of arms, etc. as the decisive arguments for who would best whom.
Both, the WiKi and Gandalf have had their bad moments:
- the WiKi being sneaked up and stabbed by a hobbit and finished off by an overambitious girl just grown out of puberty,
- and well Gandalf wasn't far from taking the final splash by jumping off a tree in a desperate attempt to take some of the goblins and wolfs with him if you remember from the Hobbit, after the party of Gandalf and the Dwarfs had escaped their capture by the goblins in the Misty Mountains - not very convincing either for a maia and one of the most powerful in ME....
Though the story of the Hobbit has to be seen in a different conceptual light then LotR, nonetheless it thus, if nothing else, clearly highlights Tolkien's "inconsistencies", or is it actually one of the general hidden themes which lead through all of ME history, that ".....even the smallest person (circumstance) can change the course of the future".......
Here an Istari having been chased up a tree by a number of goblins and some wolfs, later destroying a Balrog (though being "defeated" himself as well...) and facing off the biggest evil next to Sauron in "modern" ME times, and there the head of the nine, second in command after Sauron, being stabbed by Hobbit and finished off by beforementioned girl, while priorly having succesfully ruined kings, kingdoms and cities over the last few thousand years...., ah well shame on you Mr. Nazgul.

In the end, I must admit, I guess they were kind of equal in power in ME (!), but required special circumstances to beat the other: the WiKi had good chances to best Gandalf when the surrounding conditions were right (close to Sauron's power, darkness, fear all arround him, etc.), and Gandalf had good chances, if the conditions were favourable for him (hope prevails, enlightened spirits, etc.).

Just my thoughts.

[Blackheart-Fury]

In the end, I must admit, I guess they were kind of equal in power in ME (!), but required special circumstances to beat the other: the WiKi had good chances to best Gandalf when the surrounding conditions were right (close to Sauron's power, darkness, fear all arround him, etc.), and Gandalf had good chances, if the conditions were favourable for him (hope prevails, enlightened spirits, etc.).

Just my thoughts.

I agree with this assessment.

[Ironcrown]

Reps all around, great discussion thread...loving it.
After having read Tolkien's books concerning ME many times (though it's at least 20 years ago, so forgive me one or the other incosistency on my side ), I would surely agree, that the WiKi was a match for Gandalf, but finally Gandalf would prevail.
On the other hand, I think it is dangerous to just eluminate the strengths' of mind, skill of arms, etc. as the decisive arguments for who would best whom.
Both, the WiKi and Gandalf have had their bad moments:
- the WiKi being sneaked up and stabbed by a hobbit and finished off by an overambitious girl just grown out of puberty,
- and well Gandalf wasn't far from taking the final splash by jumping off a tree in a desperate attempt to take some of the goblins and wolfs with him if you remember from the Hobbit, after the party of Gandalf and the Dwarfs had escaped their capture by the goblins in the Misty Mountains - not very convincing either for a maia and one of the most powerful in ME....
Though the story of the Hobbit has to be seen in a different conceptual light then LotR, nonetheless it thus, if nothing else, clearly highlights Tolkien's "inconsistencies", or is it actually one of the general hidden themes which lead through all of ME history, that ".....even the smallest person (circumstance) can change the course of the future".......
Here an Istari having been chased up a tree by a number of goblins and some wolfs, later destroying a Balrog (though being "defeated" himself as well...) and facing off the biggest evil next to Sauron in "modern" ME times, and there the head of the nine, second in command after Sauron, being stabbed by Hobbit and finished off by beforementioned girl, while priorly having succesfully ruined kings, kingdoms and cities over the last few thousand years...., ah well shame on you Mr. Nazgul.

Just my thoughts.

You have to remember Gandalf the Grey was not allowed to wield his full power, he was known as a great wizard, not an all-powerful demi-god. Another point to reflect on is that Gandalf the White's power was pure and not corrupted like Sauron's. The Witch King possessed (or was possessed by) a smaller amount of corrupted power and although he was a creature of the Shadow, he had been a man...and no man, not even Beren, could face the full power of a Maia. And lastly, as has been explained, Gandalf was in the GUISE of man and not a man. I personally do not believed he fell under the prophecy.

[Drachos]

Yup - I skip watching that scene also. Some people just think that The Witch King is stronger because he taunted Gandalf with the words: "Old fool, old fool! This is my hour, Do you not know death when you see it?'
Gandalf could have easily done the same. If they engaged in a one versus one(somehow), Gandalf would've been the winner.

[dek153]

- and well Gandalf wasn't far from taking the final splash by jumping off a tree in a desperate attempt to take some of the goblins and wolfs with him if you remember from the Hobbit, after the party of Gandalf and the Dwarfs had escaped their capture by the goblins in the Misty Mountains - not very convincing either for a maia and one of the most powerful in ME....

Actually if i'm remembering things correctly - there were several hundred wargs initially, followed later by what was probably the entire contents of goblin town. So I don't think we are talking about just a few wolves and goblins, more like 2 armies.

Maia or not I think overwhelming numbers are going to win out.

So I don't think that particular incident is reflecting too badly on Gandalf's uberness at all.