Anti-freep strategy/creepside group counter

[tykoshi]

While it might seem tempting to just pull back to Grams and catch up on the latest edition of Wargy Weekly, I'll usually just wander further afield and stay away from the Garnival. If I have a small group of wargs, we'll look for fights away from Garny's group (example: last night it was Garny +8, and there's no way a small pack with comparable numbers is going to take that down).

Last night, there was another raid on at the same time. Got some good noms off one or two of them while note messing around near Garny. Worked for me...

Good points Ug.
What's really going to hurt the Moor's is when a good portion of the higher ranked creeps leave for GW2. There will be a huge void between those that do stay and low ranked/newbie creeps. If true, the numbers of high ranked freeps and the continuing numbers of newbie freeps will continue to grow at a pace that creeps cannot keep up, ending up with a more out of balanced zone leading to more frustration, leading to more threads like this. Of course I may be wrong, and Turbine completely overhauls PvMP - but the track record doesn't indicate that along with the current creep mindset.

Yeah, I see a big disparity coming there, and one likely to be felt a little more keenly than we did when SWTOR was released. Let's hope we get more to step up and lead.

[NeedlesslyLargeRod]

Creeps can do the same thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMG4k...feature=relmfu

[whitefox1313]

Creeps can do the same thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMG4k...feature=relmfu

Small organised creep group against a bigger UNGROUPED freeps force with NO HEALERS. Argument is irrelevant.

[gleowine]

Creeps can do the same thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMG4k...feature=relmfu

Not even a close comparison.

The first set of fights was 4 v 4 and complete freep fail. Lack of tar, lack of using the tar once it was down, spread themselves out of heal range, no focus firing....I'm not even going to bother going on with the amount of fail.

Second set there were a number of extra creeps in the back; defiler, wargs, etc. The melee freeps were running in circles chasing the defiler, every ranged was on different targets. Extra fail. No tar, no traps, no cc being thrown except LoTRD <yawn>. Lack of healing, lack of protecting anyone. Really fail sauce on freep part. I have to assume poor skill or not grouped at all; in fact let's go with both.

3rd major fight: 2 Lms in among the creeps and no tar, complete fail, no roots thrown, only lotrd and sticky gourd. FAIL FAIL FAIL. No target assist. Debuffs anyone? Anyone, anyone, MCFLY???? Everyone is on different targets, melees split up and chasing the defilers (OMG &&& NOOB SAUCE). Hunters not assisting, WL only has a couple hitting him every once in awhile. Do champs and guards on that server not use sprinting for offence???? Take out the wargs anyone? The wargs would take .5 seconds to focus down no matter the healing.

This video only proves a bunch of freeps play extremely poorly and don't know their classes, skills, or have any knowledge on strategy whatsoever. I don't think this can be effectively used as a counter, just shows how absolutely poorly people play this game whether they have powerful classes or not. Which in turns shows why turbine has gradually made changes this the game to cater to the lowest common player.

It does however show what really skilled players can accomplish against really bad players. There is skill involved, this game is unfortunate (or fortunate depending on the side you play) in that very few skilled people play the game as it caters to a more casual, average to below average, player.

[FatherDamien]

Its not that everyone does'nt know how to play the classes. It's that not everyone knows how to play their class in a raid situation in the Moors. There are alot of players that play their class very well solo. And maybe even small group, 12 man situations. And they may even play in full raid situations very well against a set scenario (aka PVE).

However, you throw 24 people in a raid in the Moors without knowing one another and without planning a class balance. And its choas with a little control. (Control is an illusion.)

Take last night. We had a ton of Mini's in the raid. Yet peoeple were dying left and right and we got our @$$ handed to us a few times. Why? Cause we had like 2 mini's healing. Now wait you say, I switch back to heal if things start to look bad. Well, guess what..........once you realized it was bad and used however many precious seconds dropping WS and going into whatever stance (?) to heal how many people died? Would they have died if you were in heal mode to start with?

Freeps rarely if ever have played up to there maximum potential in the Moors as a raid. Why? Because not everyone plays for the good of the raid. A ton of people play however they want to regardless of weather or not that is good for the raid.

The reason Garny and CO. are able to do what they do is they know how to maxamize there group skills and 100% support one another. They are all there for the success of the group.

If entire raids of freeps could work together as well as they do............creepdom would be screwed.

[CVIgdal]

Good points Ug.
What's really going to hurt the Moor's is when a good portion of the higher ranked creeps leave for GW2. There will be a huge void between those that do stay and low ranked/newbie creeps. If true, the numbers of high ranked freeps and the continuing numbers of newbie freeps will continue to grow at a pace that creeps cannot keep up, ending up with a more out of balanced zone leading to more frustration, leading to more threads like this. Of course I may be wrong, and Turbine completely overhauls PvMP - but the track record doesn't indicate that along with the current creep mindset.

I don't view this as a bad thing at all. It'll clear out some of the older way of thinking types, and those that don't understand how to RvR or 2RvR against freeps, what focus-fire is, how to turn on your target assist, etc... And I'm counting down the days until a few select individuals are gone.

Also, there's going to be some down-time between Rohan's launch, freeps grinding to 85, and then freeps grinding to get the newest shiny end-game piece(s) of equipment. In the meantime, creeps get boosted to 85 that same day, and can start their own grind for either skills/traits or whatever BS audacity junk Turbine forces us to deal with right off the bat. This is also going to result in alot of flipping to change the map as people do so in order to speed up their gains from quests in the short-term as well.. which will continue until the freeps return in significant numbers to oppose that. It beats multi-boxing by a long shot in terms of ethics. Same &&&& that happened when RoI launched.

Everyone's replaceable, so in the short-term yea it'll occasionally suck that some of the higher-ranked creeps are gone, in the long run though it's going to be alot better IMO once some fresh perspective types get the hang of things over there.

[borges_maze]

I don't view this as a bad thing at all.

....

Everyone's replaceable, so in the short-term yea it'll occasionally suck that some of the higher-ranked creeps are gone, in the long run though it's going to be alot better IMO once some fresh perspective types get the hang of things over there.

Yes, I can see how losing several skilled, high ranked veterans will help creepside.

[Gillianrial]

Take last night. We had a ton of Mini's in the raid. Yet peoeple were dying left and right and we got our @$$ handed to us a few times. Why? Cause we had like 2 mini's healing. Now wait you say, I switch back to heal if things start to look bad. Well, guess what..........once you realized it was bad and used however many precious seconds dropping WS and going into whatever stance (?) to heal how many people died? Would they have died if you were in heal mode to start with?

There is no CD to drop WS and heal now. But red traited minstrels can't heal for &&&& - inductions are too long, anthems too short, and heals are too small, so those minis were probably just FOTM, red-traiters that don't know anything about support. If I am healing my fellow in the Moors, I am traited heals and geared appropriately. Anything else doesn't cut it if you're going to take on 3x your numbers as is frequently the case with the group I play with.

The reason Garny and CO. are able to do what they do is they know how to maxamize there group skills and 100% support one another. They are all there for the success of the group.

We do play as a team. It's all about the team.

.......

It's my opinion it's not that they can't play in a raid...it's that they can't play at all outside a raid. You don't learn how to be good surrounded by 23 other people all the time. It doesn't push you; it doesn't even require you to be baseline competent at your class. People become more effective players by playing in all types of group sizes, and soloing, facing X times more opponents than seem reasonable in any one fight.

[CVIgdal]

Yes, I can see how losing several skilled, high ranked veterans will help creepside.

When you consider they aren't training their fellow creeps, for example... not pouncing a guard or burg as a warg then.. yes.
When certain people are out there learning creepside and teaching people how to RvR.. yes.

There's some good creep players gonna leave, and alot of bad creep players leaving too. It's a double-edged sword and it's gonna take TIME of course but it'll be better IMO in the long run than the stale-thinking that we currently have.

[Jamers]

The players in question have been playing for years and years and years and in some cases years together... and are also playing the stronger side. In these cases, victory conditions need to be adjusted, or frustration arises.

It's my opinion it's not that they can't play in a raid...it's that they can't play for &&&& outside a raid. You don't learn how to be good surrounded by 23 other people all the time. It doesn't push you; it doesn't even require you to be baseline competent at your class. People become more effective players by playing in all types of group sizes, and soloing, facing X times more opponents than seem reasonable in any one fight.

This. Raiding all of the time teaches you how to be good... at raiding.

[TellinItAsItIs]

It's interesting to think that with so much trash talk these group of individuals get, most creeps still forget that this group of individuals also have high-ranked creeps with more renown than the majority of creeps out there.

Then again, most threads do head off topic before the first page ends.

[TellinItAsItIs]

I have a couple reasons why I personally won't do that and they answer your suggestion quite directly.

The first reason is personal experience. If you look at my signature you can see that I am still a member of The White Hand. The freeps tried that whole "log off while they're on and don't come back 'till they're gone," routine on us. It didn't work. Its only real affect on us was to a) make us gloat over the fact that the freeps wouldn't dare to fight us and b) lead to really, REALLY boring PvMP. Running away from the zone entirely to avoid a certain opponent diminishes the Ettenmoors for everyone out there and it gives that person power. Now all they have to do to defeat the other side is log in and step foot outside their home base and most of the other faction logs out. I'm not going to give them that power or make their evenings as bland and boring as ours got when the freeps did the same to TWH.

The second reason is because I savor a challenge. I've tangled with the Garny's crew a few times. The last time I did so we had a great core of healers that kept most of us alive as we tried multiple strategies to crack Garny's band. We didn't succeed, but we lasted longer against them than anyone else had to that point, and it only ended when I lost connection and the rest of the group was subsequently killed and disbanded. If I give up after that particular experience it means that instead of learning how to beat them I will "learn" to run away and that there's something unbeatable, when there really isn't.

The final reason ties back in with one of the effects from running away. I think Garny deserves a fight. What he and his friends are doing is impressive, not only in terms of how powerful their synergy is but also in that they choose to fight as a small group rather than stack three extra groups of say, Hunters on and go dominate the Ettenmoors with a nigh unkillable core and loads of DPS. They're looking for a fight and willing to fight back against greater numbers. I respect that enough to give them a fight when I feel like it will be a fight and not a curbstomp battle.

And as I said before, when people log off en-mass the Ettenmoors suffers. I'll stick around for the sake of everyone else on my faction rather than become a contributor to a "constantly outnumbered" syndrome that will arise if creeps do log when Garny and Co. show up.

Those are my reasons and I'm sure others have their own for why they will or will not leave but I have said my piece. I hope you can understand where I'm coming from now and why I choose to respectfully disagree with your plan.

*tips hat*

You are right though, it will happen, and already has, whenever that certain group goes out and I'm on creepside, I always see the same thing, the Craid leaders either always say, everyone hide in grams until they're gone, or constantly keep eyes on their location so we can -avoid- them.

Shame, really, should be more people like yourself Ugmog as opposed to these current craid leaders. (other than vinn).

[Tumgruk]

[NeedlesslyLargeRod]

This video only proves a bunch of freeps play extremely poorly and don't know their classes, skills, or have any knowledge on strategy whatsoever.

This is different from Garny's videos how? Swap freeps with creeps and you've accuratley described Garny's videos.

Because this:

I have to assume poor skill or not grouped at all;

was the exact reaction from the BAOS's creeps when they saw Garny's video.

Its not that everyone does'nt know how to play the classes. It's that not everyone knows how to play their class in a raid situation in the Moors.

Wrong, they don't know how to play their classes, being a zergling will do that to you.

When you consider they aren't training their fellow creeps, for example... not pouncing a guard or burg as a warg then.. yes.
When certain people are out there learning creepside and teaching people how to RvR.. yes.

There's some good creep players gonna leave, and alot of bad creep players leaving too. It's a double-edged sword and it's gonna take TIME of course but it'll be better IMO in the long run than the stale-thinking that we currently have.

LOL look at the zergling and he has an opinion!

The players in question have been playing for years and years and years and in some cases years together... and are also playing the stronger side. In these cases, victory conditions need to be adjusted, or frustration arises.

Are we talking about ANV here, or Garny's group? Because most people in Garny's group have only known each other for 10 months or less.

[Jamers]

Are we talking about ANV here, or Garny's group? Because most people in Garny's group have only known each other for 10 months or less.

Bit of a mix, honestly -- I skim threads like these.

In any case, familiarity, experience, teamwork and skill tend to be a lethal combination.

[FatherDamien]

"Wrong, they don't know how to play their classes, being a zergling will do that to you."




Not wrong.

Some of us know how to play our classes just fine. Just cause Im not a great solo player does not mean I dont know my class. And as a healer I shine more in a raid than I do solo. Solo all I can do is heal myself and frustrate the creep/creeps attacking me.

And last time I checked this is a MMO. Its meant to be played in a group. Yes, you can play solo and thats part of what makes this game great.

[Gillianrial]

As I said above, it's not about solo play - it's about playing in all different group sizes, as well as solo, and facing outnumbered fights at every turn, that makes one a better player.

Sides don't matter. If one *only* plays in raids, they're very likely not able to hold their own in any other situation (as is evidenced by the utter failure in the Moors these days). By the same token, if someone *only* solos, they're likely not going to be the best teammate because they aren't prepared mentally (as well as equipment wise) to support a team well enough to win outnumbered fights that are challenging beyond what most raids do, which primarily includes sitting at a static location or PvE'ing empty keeps.

[Aedon]

When you consider they aren't training their fellow creeps, for example... not pouncing a guard or burg as a warg then.. yes.
When certain people are out there learning creepside and teaching people how to RvR.. yes.

There's some good creep players gonna leave, and alot of bad creep players leaving too. It's a double-edged sword and it's gonna take TIME of course but it'll be better IMO in the long run than the stale-thinking that we currently have.

Now if only some really BAD freep players would leave.


Okay wargies, this is the truth. Sometimes it is good to pounce burgs, and Guards are mostly pounced to bring out their marathon side. I WILL pounce a burg that is chasing and beating on our healers to allow them a chance of escape. And I WILL pounce a guard for the same reason. Also, pouncing them gives me a chance to pop into flayer, and lock them down.

[tykoshi]

Okay wargies, this is the truth. Sometimes it is good to pounce burgs, and Guards are mostly pounced to bring out their marathon side. I WILL pounce a burg that is chasing and beating on our healers to allow them a chance of escape. And I WILL pounce a guard for the same reason. Also, pouncing them gives me a chance to pop into flayer, and lock them down.

This ^^

And, to be honest, sometimes I pounce burgs just for sh*ts and giggles.

-pup-