Anti-freep strategy/creepside group counter

[Gillianrial]

A combination of OFE, Shield Brother, and audacity on top of already significant mitigations bolstered by the raven's buff.

I don't know about the others but I run with maxed tactical mits in my PvP gear for my armor class type of 40%. I would assume the others are close or maxed even without Baylife too. In addition, OFE only applies when Cake is healing of course.

Specifically referring to wind, fire, and frost lore. Creeps do have some very significant, but nothing along the lines of -30-60% outgoing damage.

Creeps can stack absolutely devastating debuffs from multiple classes. LMs are not additive in groups like burgs (thankfully) and the debuffs can be removed, particularly if the first debuff is not re-applied. Admittedly, this is hard to time, particularly in a frenzy. Champs have a good -healing debuff too, which I think is PvP set dependent? I honestly am not sure about that one as my champ is not geared.

The major difference here is that all of the creep counters are active, where as SOP:R is essentially passive in the context of these fights.

I see your point, but SOP:C is an active skill that requires Garny to keep it up on the healer(s), himself and Dolmir at least, not to mention manage silence clears when possible. 1:30 seconds maxed is - as you point out - a good long time, though.

Brands should not need to be a balancing factor in any situation, creep or freep.

Agree on this.

[Baslin]

I don't know about the others but I run with maxed tactical mits in my PvP gear for my armor class type of 40%. I would assume the others are close or maxed even without Baylife too. In addition, OFE only applies when Cake is healing of course.



Creeps can stack absolutely devastating debuffs from multiple classes. LMs are not additive in groups like burgs (thankfully) and the debuffs can be removed, particularly if the first debuff is not re-applied. Admittedly, this is hard to time, particularly in a frenzy. Champs have a good -healing debuff too, which I think is PvP set dependent? I honestly am not sure about that one as my champ is not geared.




I see your point, but SOP:C is an active skill that requires Garny to keep it up on the healer(s), himself and Dolmir at least, not to mention manage silence clears when possible. 1:30 seconds maxed is - as you point out - a good long time, though.



Agree on this.

I'm at 40% and so are Cele/Garny.

Dolmir is not capped, but I'd wager is in the 50% range.

The champion debuff is from a PvP set.

[Hamlet_the_Dane]

Now I'll address this:



1. I don't understand what you're saying here. Are you talking about OFE from a healing RK? Because creep and freep damage reduction is identical with Audacity.

2. If you think creeps cannot debuff freeps, I don't know what to say. I mean...I am pretty blown away by this. Weavers, defilers, wargs and reavers have incredibly important debuffs. WL debuffs (banners) I would say are more impactful inside a keep where the freeps are more confined by NPC aggro and narrow areas.

3. Yes, freeps can protect against knockdowns, mezzes and stuns. Creeps can cure them only. This is imbalanced but can be mitigated with WLs, brands, pots and especially now the completely broken Fury pots. I am not going to explain what's wrong with them; but they are very broken.

4. Yes freep CDs scale better than creeps' do but creeps have them too, in addition to being able to get immediately back to a fight where a rez is not available.

5. Correct based on pure HPS output but disagree that this is bad. Wholely. I've said plenty on this issue. It should be perfectly obvious why creep output based on pure HPS cannot reach freep HPS. There is no light armor equivalent healer creepside - not even remotely close to the vulnerability of a freep healer that requires support to have any output at all. The tradeoff is tanky-ness. The addition I would make would be some sort of a healing/power defeat response for the WL and a better OOC rez for the defiler, plus add one to the WL.

Regarding #1: Refer to my original post. As Arctic already pointed out, between Our Fates Entwined, and Shield-Brother, individual damage reduction can reach 55% for one, and 45% for all others, assuming 7 audacity. Creep damage reduction peaks at 30% with 7 audacity.

Regarding #2: Perhaps overstated, but Arctic mentioned this already. A LM can, with a few traits, reduce ranged damage by 60% with a single skill that has a 30 second duration, a 30 second cooldown, and no induction, and can have it affect up to 8 different individuals at once. Find me any creep skill that is comparable when fully maximized. An LM is one-stop shopping for all your debuff needs that has no creep equivalent.

Regarding #3: There is no creepside equivalent to an LM's stun immunity. It's massive. As been pointed out by knowledgeable freep players in other threads (and maybe above in this one), it is *THE* most important thing an LM can do for his group.

Regarding #4: We agree! Freep cooldowns do scale better. Maps? Huh? Okay, uh, mounts? Even? (As a freep, I remember hearing people complain about creep maps. As a creep, I hear creeps complain when freeps run away on mounts. Meh.)

Regarding #5: I would never have believed this as a freep only, but Trippin, my minstrel, is far more survivable than Ughlag, my warleader, both with 7 audacity. Ughlag may take more hits to go down, but Trippin has multiple options when taking damage personally to delay defeat and heal through it that I can only dream of on Ugh. Once Ugh starts taking damage from more than a few sources, there's just not much I can do about it. Not only that, but with the ability to ignore setbacks on my minstrel's most common healing induction, Bolster Courage, and put up massive healing numbers, Trippin can continue healing through incoming damage far, far better than a warleader ever can. RKs have a similar ability to ignore damage setbacks on inductions. Don't believe me? All I can say is try it yourself. It's lightyears apart.

I think it was Needlewitch (or maybe Biohazzard) who had a thread sometime ago where he wanted to do a comparison of freep and creep healing. At the time I made a number of excuses why my healing throughput isn't maximized in PVP as it would be in PVE, etc., but I realize now it was threatening to think that I was only healing as well as I was because the skillset I had access to was much more powerful than the one the other side had.

[Baslin]

Regarding #1: Refer to my original post. As Arctic already pointed out, between Our Fates Entwined, and Shield-Brother, individual damage reduction can reach 55% for one, and 45% for all others, assuming 7 audacity. Creep damage reduction peaks at 30% with 7 audacity.

Regarding #2: Perhaps overstated, but Arctic mentioned this already. A LM can, with a few traits, reduce ranged damage by 60% with a single skill that has a 30 second duration, a 30 second cooldown, and no induction, and can have it affect up to 8 different individuals at once. Find me any creep skill that is comparable when fully maximized. An LM is one-stop shopping for all your debuff needs that has no creep equivalent.

Garny does not trait the two traits required to add 5 targets and -10% to Wind-lore. 5 reds + 2 more important traits. So yes, in theory, an LM could achieve that, but it's not worth the sacrifice.

Regarding #3: There is no creepside equivalent to an LM's stun immunity. It's massive. As been pointed out by knowledgeable freep players in other threads (and maybe above in this one), it is *THE* most important thing an LM can do for his group.

Agreed.

Regarding #5: I would never have believed this as a freep only, but Trippin, my minstrel, is far more survivable than Ughlag, my warleader, both with 7 audacity. Ughlag may take more hits to go down, but Trippin has multiple options when taking damage personally to delay defeat and heal through it that I can only dream of on Ugh. Once Ugh starts taking damage from more than a few sources, there's just not much I can do about it. Not only that, but with the ability to ignore setbacks on my minstrel's most common healing induction, Bolster Courage, and put up massive healing numbers, Trippin can continue healing through incoming damage far, far better than a warleader ever can. RKs have a similar ability to ignore damage setbacks on inductions. Don't believe me? All I can say is try it yourself. It's lightyears apart.

I think it was Needlewitch (or maybe Biohazzard) who had a thread sometime ago where he wanted to do a comparison of freep and creep healing. At the time I made a number of excuses why my healing throughput isn't maximized in PVP as it would be in PVE, etc., but I realize now it was threatening to think that I was only healing as well as I was because the skillset I had access to was much more powerful than the one the other side had.

Your WL, if supported, is far more difficult to burst down than a minstrel. Is it as good at self-sustaining? No, but that's where the group comes into play.

While having traited BC (no damage induction set-backs) is fantastic, it's still very, very easy to prevent a minstrel from casting it with the right classes providing harassment (wargs alone can do it).

RE: Biohazzard's heal #s thread: There aren't excuses. Healing throughput is not maximized in PvP if someone is harassing you (and every healer should be harassed in group play).

[whitefox1313]

With them completely admitting to ignoring a group of 6unless they have 30+, yes you're right, they are all hiding and zerging the solos instead of fighting a group of 6 with 18 people.

Avoiding the Garnival dont equal zerging other freeps. We downed the Garnival in the past, with a full raid. Zerging your opponants is not fun. This is why im saying to avoid those guys since the fights they are providing are boring.

Just saying, I've read the comments on the black appendage and youtube, and everyone from other server talks about how bad the raids fighting them are so bad that they didn't think the raids were grouped at first and it isn't even impressive defeating the raid because of how bad the creeps were.

Well, all those Youtube watchers elites creeps can certainly come on my server and roll a creep and show their stuff. So far, no one did.

FYI, garnival doesn't brag and just says yeah, they're bad such as 90% of landroval players are. It probably sounds like I'm in love with them, but the facts remain as tarbosh said that they have a thread itself on how to beat them, they've forced creeps to ignore 1/3rd there numbers because they don't think it's possible, yeah i'm pretty **** impressed that they could accomplish that on a MMO game.

Very easy to shine when you are playing the OP faction in a onesided pvp game like LOTRO Moors. Good players are looking for challenge, not EZmoding.

**An aside: purple pots clear Wind-lore.**

Oh geez, thanks for the tip!!! Havent figured that one out by myself!!! Now, can you please tell Garny to NOT place other debuffs before windlore, so we can easily clear it?

Its almost like creeps cannot remove debuffs via class skills and rely only on pots with 2 minutes CD...

[crl13107]

Avoiding the Garnival dont equal zerging other freeps
1.You're right
2.You guys do it anyway
3.Refusing to fight in a game?(teehee)
4.Calling someone the best leader ever when they just make their raid stop fighting others?(teehee)
5.Keep telling everyone in the raid they're doing everything right instead of yelling at them for what they do wrong?(teehee, kindergarten FTW).

Well, all those Youtube watchers elites creeps can certainly come on my server and roll a creep and show their stuff. So far, no one did.

1. Nope, they did not.
2. Why would they have to when the garnival makes you guys look like scrubs already?
3. The QQ on the fourms is pretty funny to read whenever they mention 2 strategies they've tried and then just give up.
4. Why would they leave there server to pvp with us if all the creeps on the video were so bad?
5. It's good to know calling people bad makes you an elites.
6. It's funny how fast people are to forget how the white hand showed everyone on the server time and time again that a good creep group could put up a fight with any freep group created.

Very easy to shine when you are playing the OP faction in a onesided pvp game like LOTRO Moors. Good players are looking for challenge, not EZmoding.

Yeah, because always fight 3-4 times your numbers is easy moding, nough said.
FYI, 90% of good freeps play creepside if you want to admit it, or not.

Oh geez, thanks for the tip!!! Havent figured that one out by myself!!! Now, can you please tell Garny to NOT place other debuffs before windlore, so we can easily clear it?

Its almost like creeps cannot remove debuffs via class skills and rely only on pots with 2 minutes CD...

1. It's a 30second cool down, not a 2minute Cool Down.
2. Turbine gave you non damaging skills for a reason, it's so when you can't do damage you can do stuff to improve your group's damage.
3. Don't be near the others so the debuffs don't hit you?
4. The skills get resisted about 25% of the time.
5. 1 LM can't debuff 24 people even if none of his debuffs get resisted.
6. You can get behind the LM so that he can't cast his debuffs without turning around.
7. You can disarm/silence(not sure which) the LM so that they can't debuff the people rate away.

I really do wish the white hand was here so that the people like you would stop the QQ. They're a group of good players who have spent hours upon hours going over every situation and pushing their play style to the highest level they possibly could. Just as the white hand had done, the thing about the white hand is that they weren't the best solo players ever, but when they were grouped everyone understood there rule and what they had to do to make the group successful which made them the most dominate force this server has ever known. (really wish i had more time to respond to this post, it actually made me have to think a little bit about what I had to write instead of everything being so obvious to answer to)

[whitefox1313]

1. It's a 30second cool down, not a 2minute Cool Down.

That change everything! We now have a plan to wipe the Garnival at will! Thanks anonymous dude!

2. Turbine gave you non damaging skills for a reason, it's so when you can't do damage you can do stuff to improve your group's damage.

All this to say *Buff*. Cmon Luc, stop hiding behind anonymous account. You are busted!

3. Don't be near the others so the debuffs don't hit you?

Yeah, because as a healer, i totally dont need to be in range/LoS for healing.

4. The skills get resisted about 25% of the time.

So what? It cannot be reapplied, ever if you miss the first time?

5. 1 LM can't debuff 24 people even if none of his debuffs get resisted.

Listen fake@$$ Patton. You dont need to apply Windlore to 24 people, just BAs/Wargs (less than 50% of your raid)

6. You can get behind the LM so that he can't cast his debuffs without turning around.

Yeah, because Garny call it in creep OOC when hes gonna cast an non-induction debuff. Try again.

7. You can disarm/silence(not sure which) the LM so that they can't debuff the people rate away.

yeah, with Audacity 7, those CC will last for so long, its almost a game changer.

I really do wish the white hand was here so that the people like you would stop the QQ.

I really do wish TWH was here so people like you would stop posting garbage tactic that they dont have the guts to try ingame. If im wrong, please post the Youtube link of your personnal awesomeness so i can watch it.

Not available yet huh? So why dont you do everyone else a favor and shut it?

[shilow7]

I really do wish TWH was here so people like you would stop posting garbage tactic that they dont have the guts to try ingame. If im wrong, please post the Youtube link of your personnal awesomeness so i can watch it.

Not available yet huh? So why dont you do everyone else a favor and shut it?

oh yea! well i wish you werent here so i could have been done reading this thread a page and a half ago!

[whitefox1313]

oh yea! well i wish you werent here so i could have been done reading this thread a page and a half ago!

Listen EZmoder. If you are not happy with what im posting, place me on ignore and get lost. Im the guy fighting the Garnival with Treelios on my shoulders and still able to do my job (partially). So unlike you, my input in this specific thread is relevant.

[shilow7]

Listen EZmoder. If you are not happy with what im posting, place me on ignore and get lost. Im the guy fighting the Garnival with Treelios on my shoulders and still able to do my job (partially). So unlike you, my input in this specific thread is relevant.

Hey if you want to play that game ive also been on my defiler in the creep group fighting them. And I was told from the "garnival" that I was the only defiler using flies and keeping hots on myself in our group which consisted of 8 defilers(including you)......tell me again how you are relevant?

[crl13107]

I really do wish TWH was here so people like you would stop posting garbage tactic that they dont have the guts to try ingame. If im wrong, please post the Youtube link of your personnal awesomeness so i can watch it.

Not available yet huh? So why dont you do everyone else a favor and shut it?

LMFAO, anyone else do that at this response? NO?, guess i'm just simple minded
Once again, I just gave you multiple ways to avoid/diminish the effects of what you are complaining about, and you want me to give you a video of how to defeat the garnival with 10 so that you can use the same strategy on them? As someone who has grouped with the garnival a couple times, I respect what they're doing and will not be the person to post a video on how to defeat them. I respect what they're doing, because they have made 90% of the people who play a game just stop trying, mayby i would help you people out if you kept trying, but they just give up and don't even try and still continue to say nothing is wrong with their game play.


How can you expect sympathy from others if you won't even try to help yourself?

On a more serious note, biohazzard, why do you play the game? I'm not trolling, it just seems you're not having fun anymore, not making any posts like you used to just to have fun on the game. I mean it's been a server wide complaint that some days pvp are too slow. You might not rake in the renown, but you're instantly given a fight when the garnival is out, and yet you guys avoid the fight and just seem to refuse to try and have as much fun on the game as you can.

Because more likely then not I will get asked this back in a fail attempt to troll, I play the game because I have always like things where you have to work together with others. I also like the fact where if one person can not do there job right, the entire thing collapses which is why i like to do small groups such as with the few times i can actually get into a group with the garnival, because if one of the person doesn't do there job right, were fighting big enough numbers to just get us steam rolled. That being said, that is why I prefer to PVE when i play this game. No, i don't mean stuff like easy 6mans and t1 raiding that can be done with half the people that you are aloud to bring into the instance. The point of having a kinship is to play with people who have similar goals to your own, which is why i play freepside.

TL;DR? Doesn't matter how you play a game, but if your goal in this game is pvp and you refuse to fight and just want people to do everything for you, don't play and and stop QQing when you don't like what it happening.

[crl13107]

Listen EZmoder. If you are not happy with what im posting, place me on ignore and get lost. Im the guy fighting the Garnival with Treelios on my shoulders and still able to do my job (partially). So unlike you, my input in this specific thread is relevant.

You just called someone who plays your class in smaller groups than you do and has a higher ranking creep than you a ezmoder?! It isn't worth trying to reason with you anymore, talking to you is just like talking to budhorn.

[whitefox1313]

Hey if you want to play that game ive also been on my defiler in the creep group fighting them. And I was told from the "garnival" that I was the only defiler using flies in our group which consisted of 8 defilers(including you)......tell me again how you are relevant?

Oh geez...You used your flies in the open huh? So the secret to wipe the Garnival is becoming big bad PAY TO WIN ezmoders and use at least 8 flies to debuff them?

While you are getting props from our opponants about your superior tictac, i was getting mine from our raid mates for keeping them up with my healing, and that includes your @$$.

You just called someone who plays your class in smaller groups than you do and has a higher ranking creep than you a ezmoder?! It isn't worth trying to reason with you anymore

If you think this guy got 4.5 stars on his warg fighting the Garnival, you are even stupider than i thought.

[shilow7]

Oh geez...You used your flies in the open huh? So the secret to wipe the Garnival is becoming big bad PAY TO WIN ezmoders and use at least 8 flies to debuff them?

While you are getting props from our opponants about your superior tictac, i was getting mine from our raid mates for keeping them up with my healing, and that includes your @$$.





If you think this guy got 4.5 stars on his warg fighting the Garnival, you are even stupider than i thought.

lol I also parsed 1300 hps with combat analysis at the same time so I think I was being very efficient.

and you know as well as anyone I don't join raids on my warg all of this is from solo play.

[Luzgrakh]

Can You EZmoders tell us how reavers can counter cc and debuffs ?? Its sortta hard for us when the whole group is completly buffed and pretty much immune to anything for a very long time? our damage is like 1/50 when we hit any member of the group, by the time a reaver charges into the group, we already have half of our health taken off? how can reavers help?

[Olympic]

Bio, I know you are sick of hearing about TWH, sorry about that, but not my fault

Yes, a solid group of TWH would handle this group, but I won't go so far as to say we would annihilate them the way we did the freep open raid on a regular basis. And it would probably have taken us just as many people to do it as anyone else; but we would have figured it out and done it. I would not have avoided them, if I had to call 47 in to do it, so be it, I would do it.

I have been crunching the numbers on this, totally based on what is being discussed here so I don't have any illusions that my own thoughts have holes in it...but...

I am assuming this group has top end weapons and armor, audacity 5 - 7. I know some of the players in this group, they are pure number crunchers and built to do what they are doing. Is your typical creep out there built for group play? Probably not.

My theory is that just as a solid WH team could win, its going to probably be the better experienced and geared creeps out there now that will win.

Audacity - A big factor in the fight, but since everyone can get it, its not an imbalance. If you aren't very high in audacity that isn't freeps being OP.

Skills - Quit hating on the store and the rest of the system. It is what it is. If you can afford to get your gear, get it. And for god's sake, would people please s t f u about using brands? USE THEM.

Based on the people I know are out there now...

Everyone is always saying how Necksnapper and Gii are the best ever, good...get them as your two reavers.

Get Arctic and a warg partner of his choice.

I don't know who the best Warleaders are out there these days, but Ugmog of TWH, or Quanchi (since he is brainstorming the same situation) would work great as the warleader. I don't know him, but Mlsoun sounds like he is a real good WL.

Get Tipere. The high ranked spider is crucial to this.

Get Plok, Purakhai, and/or Nandir-Gutlard as your three BA's. You are going to need them.

You should have no problem with Bio, Needle, Sars at Defiler...there are probably others just as good, but I know these guys play together and know each other, and their class, timing and communication is everything.

So that is 12. To kill 6 freeps. 12 of the highest ranked, best geared best experienced creeps out there right now. By my estimation, I can't see how you go with less to beat what their group is able to do with mitigations, healing, CC. But if you had to drop it to ten, one less BA and Defiler, you NEED the other classes. Or you could feasibly drop a warg, but I do think two wargs is a good idea for this specific encounter.

That's the team I would put out there against the Garnival. Now to Jaiynes question, are other freep fellowships giving creeps the same issues? Its possible, but I suspect no. But since I lean the direction of the creep side of this general discussion, the widening of the power gap in recent months is allowing less talented freeps to succeed where they wouldn't have before. Then you have the truly talented players forming the A Team, FORGET ABOUT IT lol...

Anyway, that is what I would do.

[Tophsho]

This isn't even approaching the best hps parse we have seen from defilers. W/ a group to heal they can sit at the mid 1300s with ease. I think that you owe a few people an apology or at least admit they were right and you were wrong.

"It is far better to be thought a fool and keep your mouth shut, then to open it and remove all doubt."

[whitefox1313]

This isn't even approaching the best hps parse we have seen from defilers. W/ a group to heal they can sit at the mid 1300s with ease. I think that you owe a few people an apology or at least admit they were right and you were wrong.

HPS stand for *Heal Per Second*. It give you the maximum value a specific healer can trow toward a specific target during a time frame of one second. Several methods can be used to measure that value, usually involving the best healer skills rotation done within a 30-60 seconds timeframe, then divided by the timeframe value to get the result for 1 second, to avoid peek/lucky crits factors that would false the result and get a result as accurate as possible.

Testing an incombat HPS on a PRACTICE DUMMY (who can interupt you easily,lol) over a timeframe of 16 seconds (peek/lucky crits factors) is as worthless as your opinion. Please post your opinion in the PvP section, so all LOTRO players can laugh at you. Its a challenge.

"It is far better to be thought a fool and keep your mouth shut, then to open it and remove all doubt."

Please fallow your own advise because right now, you look like a complete mor*on.

[FatherDamien]

I should have some screen shots of longer fights somewhere as well. I go to a safe location and then go through the log after fights to see how my changes in rotation, setup are affecting my HPS. I only care about RL HPS in fights with freeps. What I can do in a controled enviroment IMO is useless. Its what I can get out on the battlefield that matters to me.



Found it.

[crl13107]

HPS stand for *Heal Per Second*. It give you the maximum value a specific healer can trow toward a specific target during a time frame of one second. Several methods can be used to measure that value, usually involving a 30-60 seconds timeframe, then divided by the timeframe value to get the result for 1 second, to avoid peek/lucky crits factors that would false the result and get a result as accurate as possible. Testing an incombat HPS on a PRACTICE DUMMY (who can interupt you easily,lol) over a timeframe of 16 seconds (peek/lucky crits factors) is as worthless as your opinion. Please post your opinion in the PvP section, so all LOTRO players can laugh at you. Its a challenge.

You said the best defiler in PERFECT conditions, last time I checked that would be no other adds and other creeps to heal, which by the looks of it would be probably 2000hps if lukdirt has 6 creeps to hot and heal during the parse.

Please fallow your own advise because right now, you look like a complete mor*on.

Leaf was trying to be nice and give some nice life advice, but you're just being an idiot when proof is presented rate in front of you, even FD healed more on a defiler in the middle of combat than the supposed best defiler ever healed in PERFECT conditions when FD was fighting in an area with LoS issues and range issues.

P.S: I think they say freeps are more OP than they actually are because they don't accept that fact of what some people playing their classes are capable of, but they'll accept the fact that freeps can play their classes to the fullest potential.

btw, +rep for that advice probeard

[shilow7]

HPS stand for *Heal Per Second*. It give you the maximum value a specific healer can trow toward a specific target during a time frame of one second. Several methods can be used to measure that value, usually involving a 30-60 seconds timeframe, then divided by the timeframe value to get the result for 1 second, to avoid peek/lucky crits factors that would false the result and get a result as accurate as possible. Testing an incombat HPS on a PRACTICE DUMMY (who can interupt you easily,lol) over a timeframe of 16 seconds (peek/lucky crits factors) is as worthless as your opinion. Please post your opinion in the PvP section, so all LOTRO players can laugh at you. Its a challenge.





Please fallow your own advise because right now, you look like a complete mor*on.

If you wont take that next time I join a raid ill screen shot my 1300 hps....keep denying it and avoiding proof while you can.

[whitefox1313]

Leaf was trying to be nice and give some nice life advice, but you're just being an idiot when proof is presented rate in front of you, even FD healed more on a defiler in the middle of combat than the supposed best defiler ever healed in PERFECT conditions when FD was fighting in an area with LoS issues and range issues.

btw, +rep for that advice probeard

My challenge remain. Please post your results in the general PvP section about healing a practice dummy for 1200 HPS and watch the reaction. Well see whos the idiot here. Me or some Garnival brown*ser with fake@$$ tactics to defeat them with *8-10 TWH creeps*, whos former leader appear to say he could possibly defeat said Garnival, but only with a dreamteam of 12 Landroval high ranked creeps, whos half never been in his tribe.

[Arvaen]

We seem to have found a tangent, and not a very helpful one at that...

[Olympic]

My challenge remain. Please post your results in the general PvP section about healing a practice dummy for 1200 HPS and watch the reaction. Well see whos the idiot here. Me or some Garnival brown*ser with fake@$$ tactics to defeat them with *8-10 TWH creeps*, whos former leader appear to say he could possibly defeat said Garnival, but only with a dreamteam of 12 Landroval high ranked creeps, whos half never been in his tribe.

Your response is a bit off target.

I intentionally used active landroval creeps, and picked the highest ranked, geared, and experienced ones I know of out there.

Why would I make a list of inactive WH members?

The premise remains the same, if TWH were confronted with the same issue back during its -time- we would have figured out how to deal with it, and done it. Sorry that upsets you. But I didn't even bring TWH into the conversation don't act like I'm out there saying "we can do it and you can't" because I've said nothing of the sort.

Though apparently, the groups that are out there trying, so far, can't.

[crl13107]

My challenge remain. Please post your results in the general PvP section about healing a practice dummy for 1200 HPS and watch the reaction. Well see whos the idiot here. Me or some Garnival brown*ser with fake@$$ tactics to defeat them with *8-10 TWH creeps*, whos former leader appear to say he could possibly defeat said Garnival, but only with a dreamteam of 12 Landroval high ranked creeps, whos half never been in his tribe.

LMAO, look at this guy, he just said quote "the best and most respected defiler can only parse 800 in perfect OOC(out of combat ) situation". Perfect conditions mean that you're not getting hit at all, you have everyone in range of your hots and not once do your heals get set back. Now, FD is parsing more than that in an actual battle, and lukdirt was parsing almost double the hps that the *best defiler ever* parsed without lukdirt being able to stack hots on other people as well. And no, tarbosh said 12 people who have never grouped before as long as they were high ranked could down them, he never said how many white hand people it would take to down the group and as tarbosh has stated before, he hasn't even fought the garnival yet. And if i posted all of what you said, i'm sure everyone would get a laugh. Who said healing a dummy for 1200hps was impressive? Oh wait, no-one did, you're just making up BS things that we didn't say to have any sort of chance to hold up an argument because you have respond to half the stuff that I've said directly to your face.