Update 9 Loot

[RJFerret]

3) Some of the changes I'll most likely be making are to increase the chance to get an ixp rune and/or relic from each chest to flesh out the non-equipment and Challenge chests a bit more.

I know this isn't really constructive criticism, but that sounds great, thank you (I just completed another T2 and went "meh" at the purple vendor trash).

IXP/relics are always useful and also future proof.

[tjgrz11]

I'm glad to see the loot issues are being looked in to. I was really surprised on my first run through the new Scuttledell 3 man. We did it on T2 and the loot was nothing short of pathetic. First boss gave one of the three group members a pretty low rune and nothing to the other two people. Final boss gave me three extremely low runes, 650, 1300, 2000 and nothing to the other two people in the group. Needless to say after running a T2 we were pretty bummed and felt as if we had wasted our time with that weak loot. Granted loot is random, but running an 85 T2 should produce better results than that.

[theguru1]

I know I don't post much, but I do read the forums all the time and have played the game for 2+ years. Currently I'm the raid leader for my kin, so I have a bit of experience with 'looting' and even just trying to get enough people to run some of the content.

Given that little bit of background info is done, I consider the issue of loot itemization so important that I just felt the need to post.

First up, the bad, I'm really hating and am so over the total random nature of loot. Recent skirm raids have been an excerise in mostly wasted time, when after getting upto 12 people together and spending upto an hour, all you get in the chest is two gear items, both the same and for a warden that isn't even in the group and even if one was, they wouldn't use over the Hytbold set anyway.

From reading and what I have done of the new content, the total random nature is still all there, almost to the point that it's hardly worth it.

While it's too late at the moment for the new instances, what I would really like to see, is the system that was used for Great River. To my mind that as a whole just worked so well. Its advantages were:

1. You could see the teal jewellery that you can get and it was really great stuff
2. You could see the barter items needed to get it and while some time and playing was involved, it wasn't a super grind.
3. The Roots of Fangorn awarded the main barter item (egg) to each player on completing even T1. This made it nicely puggable and each run ment you got closer to your end goal, the jewellery.
4. It was half solo and part groups, so even if you couldn't get a group at the time, you coudl still do something that got you closer to your goal.

Basically, the whole random nature of loot was removed, and while it was a bit of a grind, for the tokens, the rep etc it wasn't over the top and at every stage, you got closer to getting your jewellery and could decide on what to aim for or barter for first. People grouped for the limlight rep quests for months and Roots was run many times, either at T1 for the basic barter item or T2C for more of a challenge and a chance at a nice item drop (yes that part was random, but that's OK, since you could still get some pretty darn good stuff without it and in some cases, the random purple drop wasn't half bad and the teal was just better again).

You can still have random yellow loot for the hard core players that will just run it and run it, but for the teal stuff, having a system like the Great River one means there's always a light at the end of the tunnel and lets you acheive something with your playing rather then spends hours and getting nothing but some gold.

[Constrictions]

I would appreciate being able to know the actual drop rates for the legendary/incomparable equipment so I can know if I'm wasting my time doing something I could just wait to purchase from the AH.

[Lestache]

I would appreciate being able to know the actual drop rates for the legendary/incomparable equipment so I can know if I'm wasting my time doing something I could just wait to purchase from the AH.

If you mean the orange/yellow/gold/whatever-the-heck color it is equipment, it's BoAcquire.

Teals and purples are BoE, though.

Can't help ya on the drop rate, of course.

[Coyote503]

It's the gear that we want from the instances. The scrolls, crystals and relics are nice, but equipment is what we go for. So far I've run T2 challenge on all 3 mans 2x, SG T2 challenge and Warg Pens T2 Challenge and I've only seen 1 Teal piece of gear (and that was amongst all rolls on all players). That seems like a rather low percentage...

I did win a Riddermark Crystal, Riddermark Crsytal of Rememberance and Relic Removal Scroll and a TON of marks. So I'm not complaining about that, but I would trade those (excepting maybe the Rememberance Crystal) for teal loot. Also, marks and medallions are nice, but there is nothing to buy with them that's worth much. If you can make it through SG T2, odds are you have gear that's way better then the skirm venders can provide by a mile.

Cas

[GithlithMonaghan]

2) Currently within 3-6man instances only the final chest and challenge chest may drop equipment. Raids will drop equipment per boss. The equipment is split between two different groupings -- the rare/incomparable and the legendary. The chests will check what Tier you're on, which increases the chance of getting something to drop -- both T1 and T2 currently share the same reward pool. Normal chests can pull both rare/incomparable and legendary, while challenge only currently pull legendary. If you get a rare/incomparable pull, the game does another check to see if it will be a rare or an incomparable piece of gear. Technically, it would be possible to win your Legendary piece from both the challenge and final boss chest at the same time. Technically.

The fact that it's a question of a lot of luck to get just one teal item for one out of three players after completing challenge mode on t2 at all is quite disturbing to me. It has indeed never been this way so I consider it being a nerf. I get a lot less out of an instance than ever. In my opinion there should be a certainty to get one teal item. Not per person. But 33% of probability to get something useful out of a 3-man instance would actually keep players going there. But if there's like a 5% chance to get an item at all which may not even be teal-tier is just way too low. Since purple-items on lvl 85 are mostly worse than some purple items on lvl 75 and mainly worse than the full lvl-75-teal-equip. So why even bother going there if there remains a chance of maybe 2% to get something useful out of there.

3) Some of the changes I'll most likely be making are to increase the chance to get an ixp rune and/or relic from each chest to flesh out the non-equipment and Challenge chests a bit more.

Seriously. I figured you would consider changing loot into something more or less attractive. But I don't believe that anybody will go to an instance for ixp runes or relics. Mostly because almost everybody has millions of ixp on their banks and everybody can get much bigger amounts of relics by soloing or duo-ing grand stairs. That change will be very much a dead end and I don't believe that anybody will think of this as an improvement. Relics and ixp have been generously spread all over middlearth. And anything that drops in Moria can still be used in Rohan. So it is certainly not what your new content needs.


So remote loot is quite a failure for now. That's what I think. It might be an interesting concept. But if chances are less than 50% that running an Ini will reward at least one of the players with an equip-item that will be at least considerable to be worn on the accurate level, I don't see any future for it. I strongly believe that there has to be a 100%-chance that at least one gear-item will drop per instance. And at least 1 teal one on t2.

I did win a Riddermark Crystal, Riddermark Crsytal of Rememberance and Relic Removal Scroll and a TON of marks. So I'm not complaining about that, but I would trade those (excepting maybe the Rememberance Crystal) for teal loot.

The problem about that stuff is that you can get it out of the shop as well. So any real improver who has got some money left will probably do that and not wait until luck gave him that out of an instance. So he's gonna sell the stuff and end up with just more money that he hasn't any use for.

Also, marks and medallions are nice, but there is nothing to buy with them that's worth much. If you can make it through SG T2, odds are you have gear that's way better then the skirm venders can provide by a mile.

Nothing to buy is one problem. The other one is that you get that stuff anywhere else where your chances to get something useful aside are much higher like skraids or warbands. So if you like some marks, medaillons and stuff on the side of good loot you better do something else than all that new content.

While it's too late at the moment for the new instances, what I would really like to see, is the system that was used for Great River. To my mind that as a whole just worked so well. Its advantages were:

1. You could see the teal jewellery that you can get and it was really great stuff
2. You could see the barter items needed to get it and while some time and playing was involved, it wasn't a super grind.
3. The Roots of Fangorn awarded the main barter item (egg) to each player on completing even T1. This made it nicely puggable and each run ment you got closer to your end goal, the jewellery.
4. It was half solo and part groups, so even if you couldn't get a group at the time, you coudl still do something that got you closer to your goal.

You talk about supergrind and call it well-working? Erm...

If you have to work for something specifically by getting tokens the problem will be that people will just choose the quickest and easiest way. So just like mirkwood you bring along 3 instances but 2 won't be played. It worked with the great river because there was just one instance. But as soon as there's several, this won't work at all. Plus: I like the thrill of hoping for loot-luck - as long as that luck is somewhat realistic on the probability-side. I don't like calculating myself through a game in order to improve myself. I found that stupid on the Hytbold-sets, I found that stupid on the Great-River-Sets. I found it stupid with the sword-hall stuff etc. In the meantime I liked the idea of knowing that a token in moria would drop and that I had about 17% chance to get it. Or double that chance with 2 runs etc.

Less calculating and more luck is good. But there has to be an adequate chance to win something to go with it.

[Coyote503]

Honestly I'm not sure why the developers decided to change the loot system...was something not working? Were there bugs or something? I thought it was working fine personally...

I will say that I think they had it about as good as they could get it with the OD cluster. Everyone I knew was running the 3 man and 6 man dailies to get the North Men Medallions that could be bartered for good loot. And since each instance had a daily, you had to run them all. And while the loot wasn't as good as the raid set, they had a lesser version which was still good (that's how it should be imo).

The main thing was, not only were you sure you would get something decent in last chest of each instance, you could also see what you wanted from the North Men medallion venders and work towards it. I think that was a happy medium for people who wanted to run instances and get stuff and for those who put in extra grinding/work they would get something too for all their work.

I don't see the new loot system working out unless 1) the probably for actual equipment increases and 2) the challenge chest MUST drop something every time (besides a &&&&&& bounty). As it stands now, there is no incentive to do challenge as you either get a bounty or a bounty and a legendary. I have yet to see one legendary drop in any run i have done and we're at about a dozen challenges and counting now. 3) put something in the skirmish camp that is an upgrade to our gear if we grind for it (I don't care if each thing is 10k marks or more), but as it is now all you really need is empowerment scrolls and delving scrolls and we already grinded for those while we waited for the new instances...

Cas

[Belechael]

2) Currently within 3-6man instances only the final chest and challenge chest may drop equipment.

Why? and to be more specific: why change it from previous expansions? I remember getting equipment from all bosses inside an instance.

Raids will drop equipment per boss.

See above

The equipment is split between two different groupings -- the rare/incomparable and the legendary. The chests will check what Tier you're on, which increases the chance of getting something to drop -- both T1 and T2 currently share the same reward pool. Normal chests can pull both rare/incomparable and legendary, while challenge only currently pull legendary. If you get a rare/incomparable pull, the game does another check to see if it will be a rare or an incomparable piece of gear. Technically, it would be possible to win your Legendary piece from both the challenge and final boss chest at the same time. Technically.

In the past there were about 4 runes 2 relics and 2 items in a SG chest, so with a ML on everyone would get something, and the chances of someone getting an equipment would be 2/6=33%. Now rewards are divided between runes/relics and equipment. For the equipment, as you say, there is an individual roll for every person that lets say its the same, 33%. Well, the chances of having 2 equipment appear for the group in total are waaaaaay less than the previous 100%. For each person the chances may remain the same, but as a group they don't. It translates to: You need 2 successes out of 6 with a 33% of success each. It's been quite a while since I've done statistical stuff, so I can be wrong and feel free to correct me.

3) Some of the changes I'll most likely be making are to increase the chance to get an ixp rune and/or relic from each chest to flesh out the non-equipment and Challenge chests a bit more.

As many others have already pointed out, runes and relics should be awarded from EVERY CHEST. Can't emphasize this enough.

4) SG giving like 100 medallions and 30 seals on Challenge mode is actually a bug. When fixed, the amount will certainly be high when compared to other spaces in the past, but not THAT high.

I don't know if Foundry gave more, as Norwrei posted, but I expect the amount to be equal. The prices for the Eastemnet scrolls haven't gone down, have they? Then you can't give us less currency to buy them, 'cause you are effectively forcing us to play more for the exact same rewards.

Comments in cyan.

[Rawlor]

I like that scrolls of relic removal finally drop in the game. It's about time.

I don't like that there is a most certain nerf to group drops. We used to get a lot more. And what's with T2C hardly dropping anything at all?

[AragornXXVII]

So, like I said earlier, I do appreciate the constructive feedback in the thread.

Responses in no general order, etc.

1) WHOO YAY MORE COFFEE! /brews another three cups.

2) Currently within 3-6man instances only the final chest and challenge chest may drop equipment. Raids will drop equipment per boss. The equipment is split between two different groupings -- the rare/incomparable and the legendary. The chests will check what Tier you're on, which increases the chance of getting something to drop -- both T1 and T2 currently share the same reward pool. Normal chests can pull both rare/incomparable and legendary, while challenge only currently pull legendary. If you get a rare/incomparable pull, the game does another check to see if it will be a rare or an incomparable piece of gear. Technically, it would be possible to win your Legendary piece from both the challenge and final boss chest at the same time. Technically.

3) Some of the changes I'll most likely be making are to increase the chance to get an ixp rune and/or relic from each chest to flesh out the non-equipment and Challenge chests a bit more.

4) SG giving like 100 medallions and 30 seals on Challenge mode is actually a bug. When fixed, the amount will certainly be high when compared to other spaces in the past, but not THAT high.

5) Skraids aren't hooked up to use Remote Looting -- those should still be using the Master Looter system.

Rock,

Your second point about being able to get the Legendary piece technically from both the challenge and normal chest seems great but dissappointing at the same time. Case in point, my kin Ran BG last night and Killed the Lt with ease. One champion recieved the Legendary Champion boots from both chests. Since they are not tradable and since the loot is randomly assigned now, one pair of those boots is going to waste despite having two other champs in the group that could have used them if the old Loot system had been in place. Any thoughts or effort on how to address this issue? Maybe Legendaries are bound to group for X minutes or just not Auction Housable? Or maybe just for Legendaries a prompt that asks the player if they wish to accept the item or return it to the group loot pool, where it could be claimed by another appropriate class? With the random chance for everyone to get something, and the chance for the same person to always get the same Legendary Item I see this as a source of much frustration and bitterness down the line. Thanks for all the responses to this thread.

[ChromiteSwiftpaw]

Edit: My mistake. I misread what I was commenting on.

[mrfigglesworth]

I was bored @ work, so here's how I think remote looting loot should work (ignoring the difficulties of gold items not able to be traded):

New 3 mans (and future 6 and 12 mans):
3 mans t1:
-the easiest and quickest group content, zero hassle to get a group.
1.Should give 100% chance of either rune (50k) or relic (t5) on each chest per person, and
2. 50% chance of item (armor/jewellery) dropping per person, (teal/purple is 25/75) from the boss chest.

3 mans t2:
-harder than t1, but still pretty quick content, requires a more balanced group of experienced players.
1. Should give 100% chance of both rune (50k) and relic (tier 5) on each chest, and
2. 100% chance of AT LEAST one purple/teal item to drop (teal/purple is 50/50) from boss chest.

3 mans t2 challenge:
-Same as t2, except add a challenge chest which will
1. give another guaranteed rune (50k) and relic (tier 6), and
2. another chance for a teal item and a small chance for a gold item to drop (teal/gold is 90/10), and
3. 15% chance to get a tarnished symbol or crystal per person.

6 man t1:
-Should require semi-balanced group, and takes a little more effort to find a group, but very flexible group makeup.
1. should give 100% chance of both a rune (50k) and a relic (tier5) to drop in each chest, and
2. a guaranteed 100% chance for at least one person to get a teal/purple item (purple/teal is 25/75) from boss chest..

6 man t2:
- Much harder content, trash able to decimate non-tanks quickly. requires a solid group with dedicated tank, healer, support, and (hopefully) dps.
1. should give 100% chance of both a rune (80k+) and a relic (t6) in each chest, and
2. a guaranteed 100% chance for at least one person to get a teal/purple item (purple/teal is 50/50) from boss chest, and
3. 10% chance to get a tarnished symbol or crystal per person.

6 man t2 challenge:
- same as t2 except add a challenge chest which will...
1. give 100% chance of both a rune (80k) and a relic (t6), and
2. a guaranteed 100% chance for at least one person to get a teal/gold item, and a small chance that item will be gold (teal/gold is 80/20.), and
3. 15% chance to get a tarnished symbol or crystal per person, and
4. 5% chance to get a worn symbol per person.

12 man t1:
- requires 12 players of varying experience. takes effort and scheduling to form a group, somewhat flexible in group makeup. Boss chest will give...
1. 100% chance of both a rune (50k) and a relic (t5), and
2. a guaranteed 100% chance for at least two people to get a teal/purple item (purple/teal is 50/50), and
3. a 10% chance for a tarnished symbol/crystal to drop per person, and
4. a 5% chance for a crystal of remembrance to drop per person.

12 man t2
-requires raiders with experience in the raid, more than likely who have raided together. requires scheduling, and a solid group. Boss chest will give...
1. 100% chance to drop both a rune (80k) and a relic (t6), and
2. a guaranteed 100% chance for at least two people to get a teal/gold item, and a decent chance that item will be gold (teal/gold is 60/40), and
3. a 10% chance for a tarnished symbol of the elder king/crystal to drop per person, and
4. a 10% (too high?) chance for a crystal of remembrance to drop, per person.

12 man t2 challenge
-same as t2 except add challenge chest will give....
1. another 100% chance for rune (100k) and 2 relics (t6), and
2. a guaranteed 100% chance for at least two people to get a teal/gold item, and a good chance that item will be gold (teal/gold is 40/60
3. a 15% chance for a tarnished symbol of the elder king/crystal to drop per person, and
4. a 10% (too high?) chance for a crystal of rememberance to drop per person.

These numbers don't necessarily solve everything people are complaining about, but it does help the question of whether or not at least SOMEONE will get something at the end of the run. Everything besides the t1 3 mans guarantees that one item (jewellery/armor) drop at the end. The rarity goes up as the challenge increases. I also ensured gold items can only be acquired from challenge modes, which is how it should be.

Ps. A problem with this itemization is BG farming, which will trivialize receiving crystals and tarnished symbols.

[Rawlor]

...words...

ummm... worn symbols were for lvl 75. I don't think raiders would be happy about that

[mrfigglesworth]

ummm... worn symbols were for lvl 75. I don't think raiders would be happy about that

c'mon! nostalgia ftw!

fixed ty

[ima24fan]

Rock,

I see where you said skraids should not be in this open loot system, but apparently they are. We did some skraids the other night and loot was random, only things coming up to "roll" on in final chest were runes and relics, symbol auto went to one person, relics on final boss body only went to one (where it used to go to all), and LT's left and right were dropping random loot for each person (relics, crystals, bounties, or nothing at all for some unlucky people in the raid).

Everyone in raid ended up with 4-8 banners from the encounters, instead of just four banners dropping, to be handed out or open rolled on.

So I don't think to say skraids are not in this new loot system is really accurate? Maybe they weren't meant to be, but they seem to be somewhat in -- halfway at least.

[Omen_Kaizer]

Hello RockX

Thanks again for communicating with us here on the forums.


Generally speaking, I like the mechanics of the remote looting from chests. Having folks get their own shot at something from a chest regardless of others in the run couldn't be more fair. This also discourages undermanning things for more chance at loot, which is probably a good thing; also it discourages stacking class types for more favorable loot chance to the stacker, which is absolutely a good thing. So good job.

On the in-game check between receiving an incomparable gear piece vs a rare gear piece, I feel like the odds could be stacked a little more in favor of incomparables when T2C is completed in these instances. Like I've run a lot of 3mans T2C, and if I had to throw a number out there I'd say I see 3 or 4 purples drop for every teal. That said I realize we've got to keep chasing carrots 'til February, and locks haven't been implemented this time so low chance at extra-shinies is all that'll keep us busy. Now, personally I like chasing shiny carrots and just doing content, but I gotta have folks to run with. I'm afraid that getting nothing but bounties and trash purples is gonna discourage folks from running stuff.

A couple specific requests of mine:

-There's no incomparable might piece from Great Goblin's right now. Only a Vit-power-parry pocket item. Could you take the rare item Brosh's Cloak and make like Brosh's Less-smelly Cloak or something as a teal?

-Would you consider making incomparable versions of the Fornost loot and adding them into the Fornost loot lists in the same manner that the loot from U9 is done? Not every piece would be competitive with what is currently available, but like if you took the rare Bracelet of Fornost, scaled it up to item level 96 and added a stat dose to make it incomparable, it could have like 113 might, 38 vitality, 59ish ICPR, 768 crit. That's close to the current very popular Bangle of Echoing Battle--I'm certain some captains and such would be tempted to run Fornost for that, especially considering people only got 3 shots a week at the Bangle. I think compared to the ease with which undermanned T1 Skraids and stuff are completed, that having item level 96 incomparables in Fornost would be reasonable. Those instances still need some help.

-We're still lacking incomparable, item level 96 might and vitality necklace drops from any 85 instance. And agi classes only get 1 shot a week at looting a pocket item of that quality. U9 is out and done, just please keep these disparities in mind with U10.

Thanks

[Bunjee]

just want to add my voice to those saying Skraid loot is messed up, and 3 man loot is inadequate, esp on t2.

[RockX]

Hello RockX

Thanks again for communicating with us here on the forums.


*snip*

-There's no incomparable might piece from Great Goblin's right now. Only a Vit-power-parry pocket item. Could you take the rare item Brosh's Cloak and make like Brosh's Less-smelly Cloak or something as a teal?

-Would you consider making incomparable versions of the Fornost loot and adding them into the Fornost loot lists in the same manner that the loot from U9 is done? Not every piece would be competitive with what is currently available, but like if you took the rare Bracelet of Fornost, scaled it up to item level 96 and added a stat dose to make it incomparable, it could have like 113 might, 38 vitality, 59ish ICPR, 768 crit. That's close to the current very popular Bangle of Echoing Battle--I'm certain some captains and such would be tempted to run Fornost for that, especially considering people only got 3 shots a week at the Bangle. I think compared to the ease with which undermanned T1 Skraids and stuff are completed, that having item level 96 incomparables in Fornost would be reasonable. Those instances still need some help.

*snip*
Thanks

The lack of an Incomparable Might cloak from Seat of the Great Goblin was noticed by QA, but we didn't have the time to fix it for Update 9. It'll start dropping in 9.1. As an aside, it's called Brosh's Embroidered Cloak, with an enhanced dose of Might compared to the rare version. Whether it's less smelly I'll leave to all of you.

As for Fornost loot, it's certainly something I'm considering. No promises there though.

Also, thanks for the heads-up everyone regarding Skirmish Raids partially using Remote Looting -- I'll look into that.


Keep the feedback / questions coming, and I'll answer as I'm able!

[Wabeccolicious]

Keep the feedback / questions coming, and I'll answer as I'm able!

Kudos to you!

[Sthrax]

I'd love to comment on the loot available from the U9 instances, but since I have not gotten a single thing from chests other than bounties, I'd probably lose my posting privileges if I wrote what I'm thinking.

[Raven-EU]

The corpses of the bosses in Barad Guldur use the old roll/pass loot system (rather than the remote loot thingie). The devil is in the little details

[Thoronthor]

Imo there should be a guarantee to get either an IXP rune or a relic, you were never certain of getting much more than that anyway

[Torinik]

Here is my main problem with the way update 9 changed loot.

Quest item drops have been severly messed with alot. In most cases since update 9 your toon actually has to do the death kill blow to get a quest drop or class book page drop to be generated on a mobs corpse for that toon. Some of you might be fine with that , but what if your toon is in a group and your the healer or the lowest dps the chances your gonna get a quest drop or page drop reduce to almost to nil. You still get xp and regular loot and silver but no quest or page, what a utter fail.

[Beorhtred]

One thing to note: I was on last night when Ramble On finished their run of BG on Elendilmir, and they announced that by the time the raid had ended they had received 12 total symbols. They linked a teal and a purple jewelry, but I don't know how much else they got by way of drops. Still, everyone walking out with a symbol is pretty positive.

My question here is, are the symbols in BG dropping off of trash? I've seen people spamming for "BG Farming runs" in Elendilmir's GLFF, and I was a little confused b/c I expected only bosses would have a chance to drop symbols, and killing bosses locks you until reset. But 12 symbols dropping in a single run sounds more like trash drops to me, unless they cleared fully and got multiple symbols off each boss.

Also, I've yet to see whether Sammath Gûl or any of the small fellowship instances are supposed to have a chance to drop one (I would hope at a minimum SG T2 Challenge would have a chance to drop one off of Gorothul, just like he did at 65). Can any one confirm yet?