A new kind of tank

[Blizzard12]

I was grinding legendary traits in Angmar as my level 42 RK with my same level warden friend, oddly enough i was tanking...

[FragLimiT]

Not odd at all. The RK (especially with lightning) does a good amount of damage quickly that the mobs will pick your damage aggro over the slowly built percieved aggro of the warden every time. A warden is not a guardian and at that level, the wardes does not have any forced aggro gambits to execute. Either have your warden friend goat the mobs twice to have a little head-start and wait with damage or you'll get their attention every time.

[UwS-Harledir]

At that level i doubt your warden friend has a lot of tanking experience.

There are a couple of things a warden needs to have done to be able to tank and the fellowship needs to know this as well.

1. Traits
At that level most will be in spear (red) line traits to level and the blue / yellow (shield / fist) lines are not used alot. In red line the warden does not have alot of agro up against a rk. If you don´t start pulling more than 3+ mobs then this should not be too much of a problem. Warden worrys about 2 mobs while rk kills the other.

2. Stance
If the warden is in recklessness stance then there is no agro holding esp. against rk. The warden would have to out dps the rk - and at that level pretty unlikely.
Determination is the tanking stance to build agro. If the warden is not in it - then you will be tanking.

3. Gambits
Alot of the really good agro / leech gambits are still coming for the warden. So until he has them, and has traited more towards tanking - let the warden start each fight and let him do at least 1 agro gambit on each mob - before you fire away.

BTW: fist traited the warden can still do reasonable dps and hold agro (on >5) mobs pretty well. Later on you should switch into blue (shield) traits for better survivability.

[Brya]

Or maybe rather than being an issue of skill, the warden couldn't be bothered to waste time using agro on a mob that his friend would kill in seconds, and was simply "DPS"ing himself.

[Morat]

[snip] A warden is not a guardian and at that level, the wardes does not have any forced aggro gambits to execute. [snipity]

Actually, wardens lack a forced aggro gambit at any level. They do eventually get (can't remember the level) a very brief forced aggro clicky, Defiant Challenge, but most use it more for its generous mitigation buffs once a fight is already underway and aggro is established than for DC's forced aggro aspect because of the long annimation it goes through before it actually does anything.

[Blizzard12]

I was healing , when i did go dps i pulled them one at a time, i was tanking because he couldn't heal himself enough.

[Namesse]

I was healing , when i did go dps i pulled them one at a time, i was tanking because he couldn't heal himself enough.

One of the reasons I don't have a high ranked warden is that I didn't want to memorize all the gambits and what they do. However, I do know there are gambits to heal, buff defenses, get aggro, leach morale - but they can take some time to build, and on landscape mobs he may not have the opportunity to do so. If you're just killing 1-3 mobs at a time, the warden may be just trying dps gambits. Or it could be the warden doesn't have decent gear and can't kill quick enough.

Just because the warden is a tank class doesn't mean the mobs are automatically going to aggro to him, make him invincible and ignore everyone else around, you also need to learn to manage your healing aggro. Find a bigger mob to practice against. If your friend is concerned, I'd encourage him to find a mentor in game, or head over to the warden forums and seek advice.

[Dwarendele]

I was healing , when i did go dps i pulled them one at a time, i was tanking because he couldn't heal himself enough.

You don't find that statement odd?

You were healing - he was tanking - you switched to DPS (to tank?) because he wasn't healing himself fast enough?

Or did you switch to DPS to kill faster, stealing aggro from the tank? Then since you couldn't manage your DPS output to match the tanks aggro management - you just decided to do everything but heal him?

I just dont get it.

Anyways there are all kinds of ways to tank with non-tank classes - kitting the most common. But you can tank through DPS, and CC.

I used to run my RK duo with a Mini - and we would switch back-n-forth between tanking while the other DPS'ed

In your case I would have probably just healed the ward and let him Tank/DPS and only throw in finishing "one-shots" here and there to avoid stealing aggro too much - especially in landscape/slayer deeding - no need to collect unnecessary damage repair bills.

[maxjenius]

I used to run my RK duo with a Mini - and we would switch back-n-forth between tanking while the other DPS'ed

Hah, hah. I've never played a Rune-keeper/Minstrel duo, so I was just about to post a question about that very combo. Of course when you're duoing, you can't really stay locked into traditional group roles, although a non-healing class obviously can't heal the other character no matter how much the other character needs it. In my main duoing combo (me, Rune-keeper, other player, Hunter), if I grab too much aggro and start getting whacked too much, I just have to start shedding aggro and running until aggro switches back, which is a lot easier for Hunter to facilitate than a Warden. It's rare that I have to dedicate myself to healing.

I'm looking forward to leveling our Warden/Minstrel combo.

[Dwarendele]

Hah, hah. I've never played a Rune-keeper/Minstrel duo, so I was just about to post a question about that very combo. Of course when you're duoing, you can't really stay locked into traditional group roles, although a non-healing class obviously can't heal the other character no matter how much the other character needs it. In my main duoing combo (me, Rune-keeper, other player, Hunter), if I grab too much aggro and start getting whacked too much, I just have to start shedding aggro and running until aggro switches back, which is a lot easier for Hunter to facilitate than a Warden. It's rare that I have to dedicate myself to healing.

I'm looking forward to leveling our Warden/Minstrel combo.

Yeah - we called ourselves "The Squishy Brothers" both dwarfs, Him: MacReady, And I: Childs, in homage to one of our favorite cheesy 80's sci-fi flicks: The Thing - still one of my guilty pleasures

We found it a very effective combination for most of the landscape questing up to around the 2nd half of Angmar, when all the quests started becoming group focused and we were just overwhelmed but the number of adds and mobs in our pulls. We limped through it and entered Moria (At the time 60 was cap and Moria endgame) - we stopped duo'ing in Moria as we had other toons running endgame raids and lots of activity with our kin - but had a hard time getting healers for our runs (hence the reason we both brought up healers) so from Moria on we brought them out only when we needed a healer and for the most part never played them again together... good times. Actually The guy who played the mini - his main being a champ - like the Healer role so much that the mini became his main, so I never really got a chance to RK main heal much - and instead would RK DPS in groups - but I preferred tanking/off tanking more (either with a Guard or Captain) so my RK is just kind of sitting at 65 waiting for me to get back to him - so much to do - so little time.

[Petruccio]

You spelled your friends class wrong--that would be Warrden

[maxjenius]

Yeah - we called ourselves "The Squishy Brothers" both dwarfs, Him: MacReady, And I: Childs, in homage to one of our favorite cheesy 80's sci-fi flicks: The Thing - still one of my guilty pleasures

Hah, hah, a real guy movie. Way better than the more recent one. Two thumbs up. Along with that other quintessential guy movie Caddyshack.

[...] I never really got a chance to RK main heal much

Well, not surprisingly I do that in my duo, what with the other character being a Hunter. I don't do full Fellowships, so I've never had the pleasure/burden of being the main healer in a group, either.

[Anwiga]

I was healing , when i did go dps i pulled them one at a time, i was tanking because he couldn't heal himself enough.

As a tank, one of the most annoying things in game is the DPS classes getting all happy that they pulled agg. Just remember, working in a fellowship/raid requires teamwork.

Also remember, when that warden gets all of his tanking/aggro skills, he CAN use them to to keep your squishy butt safe, but the harder you make that for him...well, just because he can doesn't mean he WILL. (especially a warden, at higher lvls can practically live forever).

[Omen_Kaizer]

Low level wardens are hamstrung as far as aggro generation goes. If he even cared to tank quest mobs.

[Bhoris_they_spider]

I was grinding legendary traits in Angmar as my level 42 RK with my same level warden friend, oddly enough i was tanking...

I assume from your username that you are an ex-wow player? LOTRO requires more effort from tanks in terms of threat generation than just using an AoE skill and going AFK for the rest of the fight. Wardens have lots of different gambits and if your friend is used to just DPS or solo-play on his warden he perhaps has yet to consider his threat based gambits. If that is the case then it is not surprising that you can out threat him via DPS. As has been commented wardens dont really take off in the tanking department until L50 but even then it will still require your friend to change his gambit rotation based when tanking.

The good news is that as you have found out, pulling aggro in lotro is rarely (outside raids) a lethal event. Very few mobs are capable of 1-shotting an over-zealous DPS class.

[Blizzard12]

I assume from your username that you are an ex-wow player? LOTRO requires more effort from tanks in terms of threat generation than just using an AoE skill and going AFK for the rest of the fight. Wardens have lots of different gambits and if your friend is used to just DPS or solo-play on his warden he perhaps has yet to consider his threat based gambits. If that is the case then it is not surprising that you can out threat him via DPS. As has been commented wardens dont really take off in the tanking department until L50 but even then it will still require your friend to change his gambit rotation based when tanking.

The good news is that as you have found out, pulling aggro in lotro is rarely (outside raids) a lethal event. Very few mobs are capable of 1-shotting an over-zealous DPS class.

never played wow, this is just the first thing that popped into my head.

[Blizzard12]

You don't find that statement odd?

You were healing - he was tanking - you switched to DPS (to tank?) because he wasn't healing himself fast enough?

Or did you switch to DPS to kill faster, stealing aggro from the tank? Then since you couldn't manage your DPS output to match the tanks aggro management - you just decided to do everything but heal him?

I just dont get it.

Anyways there are all kinds of ways to tank with non-tank classes - kitting the most common. But you can tank through DPS, and CC.

I used to run my RK duo with a Mini - and we would switch back-n-forth between tanking while the other DPS'ed

In your case I would have probably just healed the ward and let him Tank/DPS and only throw in finishing "one-shots" here and there to avoid stealing aggro too much - especially in landscape/slayer deeding - no need to collect unnecessary damage repair bills.

I was healing myself, when he tried to tank(with heals) he always got really low then i healed him and drew agro :P

[Dwarendele]

Aggro in this game has a few rules. One of them is that each mob keeps a "threat list."
Who ever is at the top of the list gets the mobs aggro. A character is added to the list by their actions. Those actions include, attacks, heals, CC and by just being closer to the mob then another character.

Each action has a base "threat value" and some actions generate more threat than others. For example, hitting a mob is going to have more threat value and thus be higher on the list, then just being closest to the mob.

So, if the tank has not hit a mob yet and is only on the list because he was closer to the mob when he pulled them, then you were, when you throw a heal (or DPS) you are going to be higher on the mobs threat list than the tank, because some heals and attacks generate more threat then proximity threat, resulting in you getting aggro.

The same results can be achieved with DPS, CC and other actions.
This is called stealing aggro from the tank.
Generally not a good thing.

A few ways to avoid this is to let the tank, tank. It takes him awhile to grab aggro and lock it on all the mobs in the pull. Fortunately, both guards and wards can perform with ridiculously low moral and both have a set of "oh -snap" skills that can save them from instant defeat, so excessive healing is not required, especially with most landscape mobs

Another way is to only DPS who the tank is targeting. There is a setting in the combat options that let you turn on target assist and you can assign the tank as your assist target in the HUD under fellowships.

This allows you to target and DPS who ever the tank is currently targeting. By attacking only the target that the tank is targeting (and presumably attacking) you are less likely to steal aggro from the tank as he has a fighting chance to regain any stripped aggro by re-attacking (or other threat skills)

When you do pull aggro, it is good form to either stay still or drag the mob back to the tank and let the tank snap aggro back. That means no running around and no attacking.

It takes a village.

Of course on landscape mobs the fights are so short and the potential for a wipe is so low that some people don't really bother and just hack through. But if you start doing instances and raids or grouping they will expect you to play nice.


Sorry if you knew all this already - I'm under the impression that you don't.

Take Care.

[Calem]

Landscape mobs on-level are typically soloable with good pulls, crowd control, kiting etc so I suggest work out which roles you prefer to take in terms of tanking, healing and dps when in a duo or larger for more gaming enjoyment synergy.

For more details on how Perceived Threat works, this is a good link:

http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Mecha...rceived_Threat

[Blizzard12]

Aggro in this game has a few rules. One of them is that each mob keeps a "threat list."
Who ever is at the top of the list gets the mobs aggro. A character is added to the list by their actions. Those actions include, attacks, heals, CC and by just being closer to the mob then another character.

Each action has a base "threat value" and some actions generate more threat than others. For example, hitting a mob is going to have more threat value and thus be higher on the list, then just being closest to the mob.

So, if the tank has not hit a mob yet and is only on the list because he was closer to the mob when he pulled them, then you were, when you throw a heal (or DPS) you are going to be higher on the mobs threat list than the tank, because some heals and attacks generate more threat then proximity threat, resulting in you getting aggro.

The same results can be achieved with DPS, CC and other actions.
This is called stealing aggro from the tank.
Generally not a good thing.

A few ways to avoid this is to let the tank, tank. It takes him awhile to grab aggro and lock it on all the mobs in the pull. Fortunately, both guards and wards can perform with ridiculously low moral and both have a set of "oh -snap" skills that can save them from instant defeat, so excessive healing is not required, especially with most landscape mobs

Another way is to only DPS who the tank is targeting. There is a setting in the combat options that let you turn on target assist and you can assign the tank as your assist target in the HUD under fellowships.

This allows you to target and DPS who ever the tank is currently targeting. By attacking only the target that the tank is targeting (and presumably attacking) you are less likely to steal aggro from the tank as he has a fighting chance to regain any stripped aggro by re-attacking (or other threat skills)

When you do pull aggro, it is good form to either stay still or drag the mob back to the tank and let the tank snap aggro back. That means no running around and no attacking.

It takes a village.

Of course on landscape mobs the fights are so short and the potential for a wipe is so low that some people don't really bother and just hack through. But if you start doing instances and raids or grouping they will expect you to play nice.


Sorry if you knew all this already - I'm under the impression that you don't.

Take Care.

dps only pulls the one you attack. i never ran around, i healed myself.we took between 2-6 normal mobs most of the time.

[Dwarendele]

They used to say:

"Take the cotton balls out of your ears and put them in your mouth."

I'm not sure which of the two of us would profit the most from that old chestnut...

But I'm guessing it would be you.

I strongly suggest you examine Calem's Link: http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Mecha...rceived_Threat


If not - then have fun tanking with your rune-keeper.

Take Care

[Blizzard12]

I'm just saying that RK's can tank-at level 42- better than a warden. Sorry if you're under the impression that i don't know what aggro is, I know what aggro is, and fairly knowledgeable about the game in general.

P.S. Thanks for the link though, I did read some of it, it's interesting seeing the finer details of the game.

[maxjenius]

I assume from your username that you are an ex-wow player? LOTRO requires more effort from tanks in terms of threat generation than just using an AoE skill and going AFK for the rest of the fight. Wardens have lots of different gambits and if your friend is used to just DPS or solo-play on his warden he perhaps has yet to consider his threat based gambits.

I can say that this was my experience in playing a Warden (to level 57). As a soloer, I always traited for DPS and when dragged into the odd ad hoc PUG, I found it hard to tank (some admittedly due to lack of practice, since I don't group much).

I'm just saying that RK's can tank-at level 42- better than a warden.

I don't doubt that there are some Rune-keeper players who can tank better than some Warden players, but not because Rune-keeper is a better tanking class than Warden.

If you're tanking with your Rune-keeper, you're probably spending a lot of time healing yourself. That's what happens to me when I (inadvertently) find myself "tanking." Tanking Rune-keeper self-healing and Warden DPSing seems like a rough way to go.

[Nakiami]

At level 42, what tanking tools does a Warden have?

I don't have a warden, but I have heard several times before that low level warden tanking is not very viable. So I'd believe that an RK could outtank a Warden at level 42.

[maxjenius]

At level 42, what tanking tools does a Warden have?

I don't have a warden, but I have heard several times before that low level warden tanking is not very viable. So I'd believe that an RK could outtank a Warden at level 42.

Well, do self-heals draw "healing aggro?" I would assume they do. Maybe a level 42 Warden can't tank 6 monsters at a time, but if it can't then a duoing pair in which one of the two is a Warden shouldn't aggro 6 monsters at a time.

I do have a level 57 Warden but I have not played it in months.

And I would hardly call 42 "low level," unless you limit yourself to only "low" and "high" level descriptors.