Fighting with Fury

[Harla]

It seems as though the optimal for dealing best overall damage will vary slightly form class to class, and also on how you trait your WS.

Most people here seem to agree that being moving will always increase your overall output, the disagreement seems mostly to be on how much movement.

My own observatiosn and testing leads to this conclusion, personally:

As a hunter, the optimal for damage output lies in two clicks of fury; skills traited for their shortest possible cooldown, with the setting that stops your crit buff falling off some of the time, and alternating establishing with other skills every second usage, as rapidly as the skills come off cooldown... also to always be behind the boss, and as importantly, to have him in your direct 90 degree frontal arc, so that your auto-attacks continue to slip in between every skill... you can fire your skills at 180 degrees, but your auto will only fire in quite a tight frontal cone; keep it facing. Keep moving at the walk seep, since you'll only build two clicks of fury between each skill, you don't need to go any faster.

That's a whole heck of a lot of variables for just one class though; that's sort of the point. The optimal for damage output, for how much you should be moving, and -how- you should be moving, is going to be different class to class, and build to build.

One thing that is universally helpful, though, is how you move the target. Most classes can gain their optimal damage when they strike from behind directly; whether it's actually positional damage, traits that apply extra bleeds from behind, or simply the negation of the targets BPE... so, movement wise, if you're dpsing, chances are you'll want to be trailing along behind the target, moving at your optimal, while still keeping his behind in your sights... which means the person holding his agro can make things more optimal for everyone by essentially "laying out" the boss. Rather than running him in a circle, or strafing around him, as most seem to do, if you're holding the threat, move ahead and lead him, slightly faster than he's going, and weave; running away from him, just fast enough that you can keep ahead, while weaving just enough to keep firing your own skills constantly. This'll keep him running in a straight line, and let other people trail his back more effectively. You can turn him around and take him back again if you're worried about distance and resets. If damage threat is all that's in play, and no-ones using other threat skills, your 'leader' will probably lose the threat sooner or later; it'll be slightly fury augmented skill usage, against slightly augmented skill usage plus autos, at minimum... this is no biggie, so long as the new leader then just takes over the leading, and the old leader becomes a trailer.

Just my own observational notes hope it helps.

-Niara

[maxjenius]

Now, let's compare the average dps from both encounters (I added up the damage from each hit and divided the total by 16).

Average DPS per hit with Fury = 1762.875

Average DPS without Fury = 1315.375

With these numbers how can you say that fury does not add to the dps??

You are completely missing the point. No one ever said or implied that Fury does not add to damage. The point is do you do more damage per unit of time just standing still because you attack more often?

[melyjely]

So you can't have all three kinds of horse trained? Hm. Which is best for a LM, does anyone know? Should I go to a Light horse or stay at Medium?.

The "Trait Spec" buttons along the right side of the mount panel allow you to switch between different mounts quickly. We get two of these free (others may be unlocked in the store), so use Trait Spec I to save your Medium steed settings, and Trait Spec II for your Light steed.

[RJFerret]

Using my captain to test...

Putting Haglob on follow, standing toe to toe with him (I had threat), Combat Analysis reports 1314.0 DPS (14 hits were crits, 0 devastates).

Riding circles around him (using auto-run, and just keeping the cursor key held down to turn), 982.8 DPS (16 crits, 7 devs).

Rotation was 9, 4, 3, s3, 2, 3, 1, wait for CDs, repeat.

The fight took ten seconds longer circling than standing still (and taken damage was 5k instead of 15k).

It cracks me up that using fury with more crits/devastates ended up being lower DPS.

PS: Then for the heck of it, I built maximum fury between each attack, rotation was 4 (+10% damage), wait for full Fury, 3, 4, wait for Fury, shift-3. DPS was 345.9 and the fight took four times longer! (12 crits, 5 devs)

[djheydt]

The "Trait Spec" buttons along the right side of the mount panel allow you to switch between different mounts quickly. We get two of these free (others may be unlocked in the store), so use Trait Spec I to save your Medium steed settings, and Trait Spec II for your Light steed.

Thank you; that's very useful to know.

[maxjenius]

Using my captain to test...

Putting Haglob on follow, standing toe to toe with him (I had threat), Combat Analysis reports 1314.0 DPS (14 hits were crits, 0 devastates).

Riding circles around him (using auto-run, and just keeping the cursor key held down to turn), 982.8 DPS (16 crits, 7 devs).

Rotation was 9, 4, 3, s3, 2, 3, 1, wait for CDs, repeat.

The fight took ten seconds longer circling than standing still (and taken damage was 5k instead of 15k).

It cracks me up that using fury with more crits/devastates ended up being lower DPS.

PS: Then for the heck of it, I built maximum fury between each attack, rotation was 4 (+10% damage), wait for full Fury, 3, 4, wait for Fury, shift-3. DPS was 345.9 and the fight took four times longer! (12 crits, 5 devs)

This is what I (and, I think, many others) suspected. Although hardly exhaustive, it's quite enlightening.

[Kirvay]

You are completely missing the point. No one ever said or implied that Fury does not add to damage. The point is do you do more damage per unit of time just standing still because you attack more often?

Not true - see the quotes below:

Wasting time building up Fury will significantly lower your DPS, especially for mêlée classes.

All that time you could have been actually doing damage.

I noticed some time ago (in defence of harwick) that my champ would kill things much more quickly by just standing in one spot and pulling mobs to my location, or using /follow, instead of riding around building fury.

The only times I keep the horse in motion is when a warband poses some kind of threat to me.. Bugud isn't one.

There are two posts that state pretty plainly that fury doesn't help, period. Either these two people assume that you must build up full fury for it to be "worth it" or maybe they just don't understand that those of us that run around are not running around waiting for our fury to build up, but are waiting for our skills to cool down so that we can shoot them off again.

Skills cool down at the same rate whether you are moving on your mount or not. If a click or two of fury that builds up while waiting for skills to cool down can add 200dps** to each attack how is that doing less dps than standing still??

(** I am not saying that it does add 200dps, I am just using that as an example only.)

On my burg I run out of power and will not hit Bug while riding around in circles around him while I wait for it to rebuild enough for me to get a couple of skills off. However, I do auto attack on my burg while riding around in circles, so I am always attacking.

My RK does not run out of power, but I have been known to hit so hard that I get all of bug's attention and he can defeat me with 1 hit. This is while there are heavy's out there "standing around" and not doing nearly as much damage as I am as quickly as I am.

If you really don't think that fury counts for anything, then I suggest that you get off of your war steed, and stand toe to toe to Bug and utilize all of your combat skills (I would hope many more than what you get on horseback) - while doing this you should be hitting Bug for no less than 1000dps (minimum) if you are doing less damage then you really should learn how to hit a couple of keys on the keyboard while turning your horse around in circles with Bug in the center. If everyone could do this Bug and all his buddies would go down in less than a minute!

[maxjenius]

Not true - see the quotes below:

If you assume "DPS" means "damage per swing," not "damage per second," OK. If you assume it means "damage per second," then what you say is "not true" is, in fact, true. There's no question that Fury makes an individual attack cause more damage, but that doesn't mean "Fury=fewer attacks" makes for greater damage over a period of time than "no Fury=more attacks." RJFerret's post provides some evidence that "more, albeit weaker, attacks" = "more overall damage."

If you really don't think that fury counts for anything

You can stop writing ridiculous things now. Or not, as you wish.

[Calem]

For a Burglar doing Bugud (or Kramp), absolutely no doubt that DPS rises with /follow while aggro is on another player than using manual riding techniques, for those with Burglars try it out. You will notice:

1. Positional advantage since you are always behind Bugud when aggro is on another player.
2. Auto-attacks that you would not have received riding around.
3. Fury! Wait, did I say Fury? Yes, Fury. If Bugud is moving around and you use /follow, you also receive Fury, just keep your rotation sequence going with no need to move your warsteed in any way.

I use Medium Warsteed for the power boosts so each time Power is available, click it, that way you do not run out of power and as previously mentioned, often take aggro very quickly, which can be taunted off by other players.

I agree that dps parses on many samples run exactly the same way would be required to fully capture dps differences across all classes for /follow vs manual riding mounted combat, however, my main point here is to confirm you will have Fury on a moving target when using /follow, so let us not incorrectly assume that Fury is always zero when using /follow.

[melyjely]

There are two posts that state pretty plainly that fury doesn't help, period.

I did not say that, period. You misinterpreted what was said.

[Erlessa]

Does /follow WORK for you? How do you manage that? Inquiring minds (mine) want to know.

I wouldn't use it if it didn't work now, would I? I have it shortcutted to my quickbar and keyboard, it's one of my most used skills on all toons.

What cracks me up about Fury is not only do you do less overall DPS when riding around (as melee! probably doesn't count for range), you get hit less if you ride straight behind the mob if it's mounted (using ./follow). That's the reason why I personally hate when bosses get dismounted, it doesn't work any more then and I have to start riding around like an idiot and I still get hit occasionally.

[Elaida]

Actually the R button is "reply" by default, the insert button toggles the walk/run or the speed of the war steed.

Oops. My bad, must have been thinking about something else. It's been bound to R in my game client for over 5 years now. Add that into being a bit sleepy at 3:27 AM my time when that post was finished, lol. :P

I didn't have an axe to grind, and have no reason to lie or make-up facts in my post. If I was proven wrong and building up fury didn't make a difference I would have posted that and changed my fighting style.

I'm not saying you're lying. The end result is correct, having fury helps at least if you can keep attacking all the time, but it wasn't proven in a scientific enough way for the typical audience here at the forums. :P

No offence meant, I just prefer seeing arguments backed with real data instead of - sorry to say it - poor excuse for such data. With your sample size of 16 skill uses, just a few more lucky crits or devastates in the non-fury test could have turned the result upside down.

That is why you should record a much longer fight and then compare to eliminate the effect of getting one or two more crits in either test. In a whole Bugud fight, difference in amount of critical hits and luck will have very minor effect in the final DPS value and thus makes the data much more reliable.

[maxjenius]

And you have to make the relics, right? They don't appear to drop on deconstructing a bridle.

No, they do not. They drop from warband loot boxes (only Bugud's for me so far, but I don't know if that's the only one) and you can exchange certain crafted relics for them at your character's guild master.

I just went to Galtrev and looked at the Relic-master's menu. There are so many things on it that I can't take them all in, but it appears that you can make a relic of agility out of three other Tier 9 items .... but I have yet to find out how to make those. Is there a site anywhere that explains in very simple language how to construct appropriate relics and then make another one out of those?

I'm sure there is, but I couldn't give you a URL off the top of my head. But the wimpiest ones just require any 3 tier 4 relics (and maybe a few pink shards; not 100% sure about that, though). As I wrote before, even the wimpiest relics are better than no relics.

[Elaida]

No, they do not. They drop from warband loot boxes (only Bugud's for me so far, but I don't know if that's the only one) and you can exchange certain crafted relics for them at your character's guild master.

I have also got some bridle relics from Kramp, but none from Gundul or lower level area warbands. They seem to be very rare though and I never really used them. All my bridle relics are either melded at relicmaster or bartered from crafting guild.

[Tael]

But.... if he manages to break free of my close chase, I switch to blue and go toe to toe. I figure, as long as I have the aggro I might as well hold him in one spot facing me.

How do you manage this? Is there some specific hunter skill involved? I'd not try it with, for example, my burg, because Bug can one shot him with a devastate. Maybe there's something I should be doing differently.

[djheydt]

I wouldn't use [/follow] if it didn't work now, would I? I have it shortcutted to my quickbar and keyboard, it's one of my most used skills on all toons.

Me too ... until this recent update hosed it. I wish I could come to Estonia (a very pretty place, I understand) and sit at your feet till I figure out how you do it.

Meanwhile, I've been riding around using the arrow keys, which have a nasty habit of over- or undershooting. All this, you understand, when mounted on the warsteed; they pretty much work otherwise. Ah well, it's only ones and zeroes.

[Kya_Cloud]

How do you manage this? Is there some specific hunter skill involved? I'd not try it with, for example, my burg, because Bug can one shot him with a devastate. Maybe there's something I should be doing differently.

The hunter's medium blue traitline has a shield bubble and a self-heal. With bugud's adds down I have no trouble tanking him. I've also got some added morale and armor on my steed, don't know if that matters much, but I never get one-shotted by him. Kramp on the other hand....

[Gandolf_TheOld]

Hm. I wouldn't call a LM a melee class; I think I have three melee skills on foot and one mounted.

But when I'm having so much trouble just getting pointed in the direction of the target, maybe I should say the heck with Fury and just ride up to the target and hit it till it drops?

My husband's Hunters circle the target, hitting it over and over with arrows and things. This seems to work very well for him.

Any suggestions? Any other LMs on this thread?

Learn to fight while moving. Get a bridle with Fury, my medium bridle has +3000 plus Fury. My rotation - Daze, Embers, Mettle on Metal, come around another melee attack and if the mob is not near death then Embers followed by melee. If it is a long fight and the crows are about to leave Daze again, Embers then melee and repeat. Attack patterns I use; the joust run, the hyperbolic (curve in to mob and out, maintaining speed to get away faster), the figure eight and sometimes the circle.

Make sure you ride far enough out to generate some additional Fury on the way in for your attack, Using the above I often one-shot the mounted Goblins in the Snowbourn Daily about clearing the farm and little trouble with anything else.

Remember, time everything around Daze, that you can stack Embers 3 times, and that you will melee for a few thousand damage with Fury. Most of the time I do not have any discipline active, but when I do it is frequently Red Dawn increasing my damage further.

I usually run solo.

However, remember your are a LM and are expected to patch heal, give power and DPS while CCing when needed. So some time you have to stop and stay still while mounted. look at your other mounted disciplines.

[SNy-lotrolinux-EU]

I'd not try it with, for example, my burg, because Bug can one shot him with a devastate. Maybe there's something I should be doing differently.

Yeah, if he one-shot you, he sat on his mount. Dismount him and he can't do squat.
Get a light bridle (optional but can add additional dismount chances), put some points into the yellow line to unlock the yellow capstone "Disengaging Strikes".

When you ride up to Kramp, Bugud, Urgai or Dal, change to Riddermark (yellow) and get them and their crownies off their mounts (Burg needs to crit with "Ride By" or "Keen Strike" to dismount enemies). Then take them out. Profit.

HTH,
SNy

Edit: skill-name

[djheydt]

Yeah, if he one-shot you, he sat on his mount. Dismount him and he can't do squat.
Get a light bridle, put some points into the yellow line to unlock the yellow capstone.

Ooooh, another term I don't know. What (in this context) is a capstone?

[djheydt]

Learn to fight while moving. Get a bridle with Fury, my medium bridle has +3000 plus Fury.

And how do you do that? With relics, I suppose ... I need to figure out how to make (or possibly find) some useful ones.

My rotation - Daze, Embers, Mettle on Metal, come around another melee attack and if the mob is not near death then Embers followed by melee. If it is a long fight and the crows are about to leave Daze again, Embers then melee and repeat. Attack patterns I use; the joust run, the hyperbolic (curve in to mob and out, maintaining speed to get away faster), the figure eight and sometimes the circle.

Make sure you ride far enough out to generate some additional Fury on the way in for your attack, Using the above I often one-shot the mounted Goblins in the Snowbourn Daily about clearing the farm and little trouble with anything else.

Remember, time everything around Daze, that you can stack Embers 3 times, and that you will melee for a few thousand damage with Fury. Most of the time I do not have any discipline active, but when I do it is frequently Red Dawn increasing my damage further.

I usually run solo.

However, remember you are a LM and are expected to patch heal, give power and DPS while CCing when needed. So some time you have to stop and stay still while mounted. look at your other mounted disciplines.

I will try all this, thank you. At present I have one heal; I'll have to experiment to see whether it heals my horse or only me, or maybe even my fellows. (Do we ever get additional mounted skills? Having set aside several [Dash, e.g.] as nonfunctional, I have about nine that I actually use.)

[SNy-lotrolinux-EU]

Ooooh, another term I don't know. What (in this context) is a capstone?

See the edit I just did, it's the last skill in the yellow tree. For the light trait-line, it is "Disengaging Strikes" which allows you to dismount enemies. You'll want to do that for mounted enemies, because they have this one skill (name escapes me right now) which can dismount you and deals enough damage to probably kill you in the process. Hence. Light bridle. Circle. Laugh at those that need groups to down Urgai etc.

SNy

[maxjenius]

However, remember your are a LM and are expected to patch heal, give power and DPS while CCing when needed. So some time you have to stop and stay still while mounted. look at your other mounted disciplines.

Expected to restore power, DPS and heal when needed? Are we still talking mounted combat? If you're doing landscape monsters, what fights last long enough to worry about that stuff? Or are you talking strictly the longer-lasting warbands-with-buddies few like to do, i.e., Dal, Ugrai and Bugrakh? 'Cause Bugud, Kramp and Gundul don't need that kind of planning. Like I wrote before, those are like sharks after a bloody seal.

And how do you do that? With relics, I suppose ... I need to figure out how to make (or possibly find) some useful ones.

Look to see what kinds of bridle relics you can barter for with your character's guild master. The high-level ones you can meld at the relic master take specific other relics and a lot of pink shards. Inevitably, someone will post and say "Pink shards are no big deal. My character has 20,000 of them, and 14 tier 9 relics" making the fundamental mistake so many make: "Everyone plays (or if they don't, there's something wrong with them) the same way I do, so if I have a double-googleplex of item X, everyone should."

[Lothirieth]

As soon as he pops onto the screen, there's a horde after him like sharks after a bleeding seal. There's no time to kill off his buddies and "burn him down halfway" before the posse arrives. Although I'm sure you perceive it that way.

Of course there is time to do that. Sometimes it's possible to solo him. Not often, but it certainly does happen. What was the point of posting this? It strikes me as somewhat rude.

Hm. I wouldn't call a LM a melee class; I think I have three melee skills on foot and one mounted.

On foot, I'm more apt to categorize LM as a melee character given our auto attacks are melee. Unless there's some really nasty aoe going on from a raid boss, you should be in melee to be whacking on the mob with your staff. Otherwise, you're missing out on a fair bit of dps. I suppose it could be argued it's a hybrid class, given in raids, you must often stay back... yet depending on the fight, I'll be in melee if I can. On horseback, I'd say LM is ranged... I've not paid attention to the difference between ranged and melee auto attacks, since I stay on the the move and mobs pretty much melt after two hits anyway.

My husband's Hunters circle the target, hitting it over and over with arrows and things. This seems to work very well for him.

This is precisely what you should be doing with your LM as well.

You need to be using your mouse to steer. You say you can't, but I call horse poo on that. One is never too old to learn anything. I used to be a clicker (clicking all my skills) but I set up a keymap that would allow me to key most of my skills. It was horrible at first. I was playing really badly. It was awkward as heck. But, I got used to it and it dramatically made my playing better. One of my friends in game was also a keyboard steerer and she was having a horrible time with quest such as the Beacon or rope running, yet once she tried steering with her mouse suddenly it all became very easy.

You just need to try and to practice. Go out into the fields of Bree where you won't aggro anything. Practice holding down the right mouse button so that you can turn and using W to do forward.. have auto slow down selected as well. Get used to holding down W and using your other fingers to fire skills (I use Q and E for my most used skills, then Shift +Q/E for the others). I can always send you a screenshot of my keymap and the way I have my LM skills laid out if you're interested (I've always found it helpful to get ideas from others.) This will make your mobility so much better. It will be hard, but very worth it I think.

However, remember your are a LM and are expected to patch heal, give power and DPS while CCing when needed. So some time you have to stop and stay still while mounted. look at your other mounted disciplines.

Um.. since when can LMs do on this on horseback? Have I really missed something glaringly obvious?

[melyjely]

Expected to restore power, DPS and heal when needed? Are we still talking mounted combat? If you're doing landscape monsters, what fights last long enough to worry about that stuff? Or are you talking strictly the longer-lasting warbands-with-buddies few like to do, i.e., Dal, Ugrai and Bugrakh? 'Cause Bugud, Kramp and Gundul don't need that kind of planning. Like I wrote before, those are like sharks after a bloody seal."

I assume they are talking about warbands that take more than a few minutes to kill. I play loremaster in much the same way.. switching stances depending on what the "tank" (loosely applied here) needs. Lately I've found myself going solo / duo on Bugud because the majority of folks seem to have lost interest in him.. on my server anyway.